What kind of receiver do I need?

[markow202]

Im building a small sound system in my den. Its gonna consist of 4 bookshelf speakers and a sub (with its own amp).

I heard many good things about the Yamaha receivers and Im going to get one of those as the sound they put out is really good. The cheapest Yamaha runs for on sale now $229 and says its 100w per channel. Power wise, what type of receiver should I be looking for in the Yamahas for this type of STEREO sound setup. Again, its gonna be a 4 speaker stereo setup not 5.1 etc. My budget for the receiver is $500canadian or so.

Please help guys thanks :biggrin5:

[elapsed]

Hi markow - a few questions to get you started:

What are the dimensions of the room?
What model speakers and subwoofer to you intend to purchase?
Is this system primarily for music, or you plan on watching TV and movies as well?
What model CD player or turntable do you own?
Have you budged for cabling?

Here are some models that may meet your budget if you hunt around:

Yamaha RXV-V659 or HTR5960
Denon AVR-1707 or AVR-687

The Yamaha RXV Series and Denon AVR-1707 are sold at specialized retailers, where you may have more flexibility in negotiating price. The Yamaha HTR Series and Denon AVR-687 are sold at big box retailers such as FutureShop and BestBuy. The models are almost identical.

Also, don't pay attention to the wattage in this price range. The $229 Yamaha you were looking at isn't likely to achieve more than 25-30w per channel with all channels driven.

[basite]

i should warn you though, Yamaha sounds really really ice cold, denon's sound warmer, and their power supply is better then the yamaha's power supply

[audio_dude]

one question, why 4 speakers? if you're going for surround, get a center channel too! if you're going for 4 speaker stereo, then get a stereo amp with A/B/A+B

[basite]

oops, sorry, i overlooked the stereo part, if you want 4 speaker stereo, you should get a stereo receiver when you want four speaker stereo, you could use a surround receiver, but it will sound better on a stereo receiver, like this:

http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/587.asp

now i don't know about availability, but on the german site of denon, they have new (better) stereo receiver, they also look better,

if you take a stereo receiver, be sure to buy speakers rated at 8 ohm, cuz when you connect 4 speakers to the receiver, the indepencance is going to change from 8 to 4 ohms, below that 4 ohm, your receiver will most likely clip (in your price range although)
please don't let this scare you off, for stereo, nothing can do better then a stereo amp.

hope this helped

Greetz,
Basite.

[basite]

these are the new receivers btw

http://www.denon.de/site/frames_main.php?MID=3&Gruppe_A=1&Gruppe_B=2&Gruppe_C=3&action=prodlist&main=prod&sub=2&ver=

Audio_dude, if you are getting a new amp for xmas, be sure to ask for the new ones from denon
the dra500ae is better then the dra295,

if they're available by then...

Greetz,
Basite.

[thekid]

Being the local Pioneer shill and a bit budget minded my self I would take a look at the Pioneer VSX-816 or VSX-1016. They have good power and many features not offered on other units usually available in the price range you mentioned.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com

[markow202]

Thanks so much guys! Stereo receiver is what I will be getting...since im not gonna be running a true 5.1 surround system. For music I love stereo because its the way it was recorded.

I didnt want to mention the speakers but I did get them for a good deal. Its Bose 301 (pair) and the 161 (pair) that will be plugged in. I also have a Velodyne Sub. I was afraid of being bose flamed.

[markw]

I see them as the only viable, competitively priced speaker in their whole lineup

Did you ever watch the Munsters? Remember Marilyn? She was a nice, normal knockout. It's not her fault the rest of her family had problems. ;)

[kexodusc]

i should warn you though, Yamaha sounds really really ice cold, denon's sound warmer, and their power supply is better then the yamaha's power supply
Been awhile since we've heard this stuff, always good for a chuckle.

What makes a Denon power supply unit better than a Yamaha power supply unit?

[markow202]

Well guys...after a afternoon at the local stereo shop...I picked up a Yamaha receiver (their 2nd best model out now) which is a 5.1 model...The only full stereo receiver I could find at a decent price was Sony but I aint coming close to Sony.

I plugged it all in...used the thicker monster cable which he threw in for free. Now, I had trouble connected 4 speakers into this receiver, so I got out my trusty speaker selector box (special one which matches the impedences) and plug it into the front channel of the receiver, and all the speakers into the box. ALL play in full range and very very little loss in volume when all speakers are selected and playing. Then I plugged in the sub using the +,- into the subwoofer connection port of the receiver. Brought nice deep bass into the works.

I must say the BOSE 301 are pretty good....I dont think they are worth their full retail price but for what I paid for them, they are great. Very good mids out of the BOSE speakers but they lack deep bass and I think its because of how they are tuned with their crossovers because the 301's woofer barely moves in and out under the highest volume. With a sub its all good then as you need the nice mids. Highs are acceptable aswell.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, for one Denon is a better manufacturer than Yamaha when it comes to their equipment and they probably put a little more effort into their power supply. Yamaha does make a bettter piano than Denon, but that's only because Denon doesn't make pianos. I am sure that most will argue or make arguements about power supplies and such, my Denon 2910 came with a decent power cable, but it was detachable and I upgraded to the Acoustic Zen "Tsunami" and while some may think it doesn't make a difference...it certainly made one with mine. The player functions far superior when using the Tsunami vs. the basic cable.

[kexodusc]

Well, for one Denon is a better manufacturer than Yamaha when it comes to their equipment and they probably put a little more effort into their power supply.
They probably put more effort in? What do you mean effort? That makes it sound like Yamaha doesn't try...Better? Better how? Lots of people (even on this website) have owned both and have a different opinion. How does a company with inferior products and no pricing advantage stay in business in such a competitive market?

Denon makes some nicer CD and DVD players at higher price points - but Yamaha just doesn't seem interested in entering that market. I don't blame them, at $500 and above for a source player, there's too many better manufacturers than either of these brands. As for receivers, personal preferences aside, there's probably as many people that demo Denons and Yammies and choose Yammie for sound quality reasons. Any Denon's I've ever heard didn't stand out from any other a/v receiver of comparable features and price. And I've owned most brands, H/K, Marantz, NAD, Yamaha, Onkyo, even crappy Technics and Sony. For whatever reason, every time I've shopped, Denon's just haven't finished better on my shortlist than 2nd (to H/K and Marantz in those cases). Though I suspect someday one will finally find a way into my home. They and Pioneer are the only ones I still haven't bought.

As for power supplies - Vague blanket statements don't make a Denon power supply better than a Yamaha. I own a Yamaha right now, but I don't go around claiming it's larger, heavier, more powerful power supply than the slightly more expensive Denon counterpart makes it better (just going by posted specs). I'm sure there's another price-point where the roles are reversed, but in all honesty, differences of 10-20% PSU size will mean nothing in practical terms. Might as well round to the nearest 100 watts consumption...or more as the size increases. 50 watts spread over 5 channels isn't going to add even 1 dB of volume at the top end. Is there some fancy product technology that gives a competitive advantage to Denon? Doubtful. PSU's are pretty straightforward. I wouldn't be shocked if they both buy their PSU's from the same 3rd party. There's size, efficiency, and build quality. That's it - not much to a PSU. And in the build quality department for a/v receivers below $1000 , few match Yamaha's consistent track record. Even fewer argue that point.

Differences between modern, entry/mid level a/v receivers are so small these days that shoot-out will inevitably come down to the secondary and tertiary features like auto-setup, connections, and even DSP's. Even the ease of use. Some still build in their characteristic sound traits like Harman Kardon - but most Asian manufacturers aim for flat line response shaping. It may not agree with the speakers you use, but it's the best way to build an amp in my opinion, let other components add colorations to the sound, amps should be neutral. Otherwise building a system is becomes a game of compensation and compromise.

Most people here recommend a handful of receivers because at any given price-range in any given year there just seems to be a different manufacturer that stands out. Sometimes it's Denon and Yamaha, sometimes not. The last 2 years, Pioneer of all brands has been making some legend killers.

[GMichael]

Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo, HK and a few others are making some very nice mid level receivers. It's hard to go wrong with any of these. Some will prefer one over the others. That's more of a personal (brand loyalty) thing than anything based in fact. Pick the one that makes you happy. You'll never go wrong that way.

[markow202]

So far its not a bad receiver...its all hooked up correctly but I noticed you really got to crank it to its limits to get the speakers all LOUD. At -15DB (as its showing) from there to -0DB on the volume levels..its already "party" level. Would this be normal?

[GMichael]

So far its not a bad receiver...its all hooked up correctly but I noticed you really got to crank it to its limits to get the speakers all LOUD. At -15DB (as its showing) from there to -0DB on the volume levels..its already "party" level. Would this be normal?

I don't think that they are all the same. But with mine, -15db is a good loud level for long listening sessions. -10 to -5db is OK for short bursts but are too loud for hours of listening. -0db is too darn loud! By time I get to +10db it's way too loud for me, but still little to no distortion. I believe that +15 is max on my unit.

[PeruvianSkies]

I am making blanket statements because I don't feel the need to back up what I say when I am just expressing my opinion. I also prefer Gibson guitars over Fender...does that make me right? No. Both companies make good guitars, just like Yamaha and Denon both make good gear...but that doesn't mean that they are equal. My experience with Denon has been good and I know that their stuff is built well, wheras some of the Yamaha stuff is not nearly as well constucted. Denon has a niche market of people that are looking for high-end gear at more affordable price points. This is why they make their stuff adjustable for the audiophile tweak to even further enhance the capabilities. Once again...my opinion on the matter, just like everyone on here...we all have opinions and I am not going to apologize for sharing my thoughts in an open forum.

[markow202]

Im using a speaker box aswell? No change in volume that I noticed. I couldnt figure out how to make all 4 stereo speakers play together all hooked into the receiver as its a 5.1 unit and only allowing connections for one pair of stereo speakers? Is this ok?

[kexodusc]

I am making blanket statements because I don't feel the need to back up what I say when I am just expressing my opinion. I also prefer Gibson guitars over Fender...does that make me right? No. Both companies make good guitars, just like Yamaha and Denon both make good gear...but that doesn't mean that they are equal. My experience with Denon has been good and I know that their stuff is built well, wheras some of the Yamaha stuff is not nearly as well constucted. Denon has a niche market of people that are looking for high-end gear at more affordable price points. This is why they make their stuff adjustable for the audiophile tweak to even further enhance the capabilities. Once again...my opinion on the matter, just like everyone on here...we all have opinions and I am not going to apologize for sharing my thoughts in an open forum.

Objectively, Denon and Yamaha both build decent stuff, quality problems are the exception to the rule, but they're very much entry level point in the audio industry (with a few mid-level receivers). There are some people here on this site who would talk down to you for owning a Denon or Yamaha because of some perceived lack of quality based on the price alone.

I can't argue your personal preferences and experience, nor would I presume to, people pick favorites for all sorts of reasons. Craziest thing is when 2 different people opposite brands because they both think it sounds better!!! I only ask statements be qualified. Especially when claims of power supplies being higher quality or sound being ice-cold are used. If the claims are true, it should be easy to support. If they're not, just be careful with making claims. Especially when there's empirical evidence to the contrary of what might be said. You'd be amazed how many people will read something like Marantz is hi-fi, Pioneer is just "Big-Box" and proceed to dismiss Pioneer without merit. Pioneer makes some world class stuff too. All that does is steer people away from arriving at their own conclusions, potentially missing out on the best fit for their personal tastes.

Personally, I tend to agree that Denon has a more concentrated focus on audio than Yamaha (not much, but noticeable). I think Yamaha's just content to concentrate on a few pieces every year, do the best they can, and let Denon fight the rest of the market at higher price points.
I don't know what they offer in your neck of the woods, but here in North America, both companies offer some pretty weak a/v receivers at the lowest price point - no company is everything to everyone.

Just trying to prevent future flame wars from breaking out - they were a too common occurance here a few years back.

[kexodusc]

Im using a speaker box aswell? No change in volume that I noticed. I couldnt figure out how to make all 4 stereo speakers play together all hooked into the receiver as its a 5.1 unit and only allowing connections for one pair of stereo speakers? Is this ok?

Most a/v receivers today have a "5-channel" stereo mode or whatever. See if your manual refers to this. you shoudl be able to plug 2 speakers into the left and right surround speaker terminals and use this DSP mode to accomplish what you're trying to do.
Or if your model has an "A" and "B" selector, try using both at once (though that'd be my second choice).

[audio_dude]

most receivers these days are able to go A/B/A+B just plug one set into A, one into B, and run 'em at the same time...or maybe look into a vintage quadrophonic receiver?? and use something else for video?

[markow202]

Yup found it. The extra set of speakers just go into the surround connections and through the menu on the receiver you set it to play in full stereo.

[basite]

So far its not a bad receiver...its all hooked up correctly but I noticed you really got to crank it to its limits to get the speakers all LOUD. At -15DB (as its showing) from there to -0DB on the volume levels..its already "party" level. Would this be normal?


we have the same 'problem' with our yammie (ht system) when i hooked up my denon stereo to it, i just had to turn it up a quarter to get the same volume as with the yammie



Most a/v receivers today have a "5-channel" stereo mode or whatever. See if your manual refers to this. you shoudl be able to plug 2 speakers into the left and right surround speaker terminals and use this DSP mode to accomplish what you're trying to do.
Or if your model has an "A" and "B" selector, try using both at once (though that'd be my second choice).

no offense, but compared to a real stereo amp, that mode really sucks,and when you have a sub in your system, it's too boomy.

[GMichael]

that mode really sucks,and when you have a sub in your system, it's too boomy.

My sub has a volume knob. I turn it down if it's too boomy. Or you could turn down the LFE gain in the receiver.

[kexodusc]

we have the same 'problem' with our yammie (ht system) when i hooked up my denon stereo to it, i just had to turn it up a quarter to get the same volume as with the yammie




no offense, but compared to a real stereo amp, that mode really sucks,and when you have a sub in your system, it's too boomy.

No offense taken. I agree, 5 channel stereo isn't as good. I use it for background music when people are over and sound quality isn't as important.
But the dude asked to play 2 more speakers so it isn't real stereo at that point.

As for the sub. If you know what you're doing, it can improve the sound of many speakers. Too many audiophile have heard too many poorly integrated subs and made the wrongful conclusion that they're boomy and not conducive to good sound quality. The right filter, gain, and compensation for room induced problems help a separate sub do things for bass full-range speakers just can't. But a bad sub or poor setup only make things worse. No different than turning a bass limited 2-way system into a bass competent 3-way system, really.

[PeruvianSkies]

Kex is right on that one for sure....if you can get just the right 'crossover' figured out and really integrate the sub with your speakers based on your room and acoustics you can really help define your speakers in ways you never imagined. I just finally got mine calibrated 'just right' recently and noticed a huge improvement with all components.

It's worth taking the time to do it right.

[markow202]

Kind of pissed off. I set it to their so called full stereo mode but it was still mostly the front speakers playing. But then upon going through more menus I noticed that ALL the speakers are set to SMALL. I set them to LARGE and I was even able to raise the dB levels of each speaker....WOW I dont even need the sub really anymore...the bass is deep and just right at the average volume level reading now for listening is -50dB not 15 :cornut:

However, I still wanted every speaker to play every damn full range note. I was afraid of distortion from the smaller BOSE 161 as I got out my speaker box again and they would have been now running on LARGE mode setting. Man was I wrong here....these things almost flew off the wall from the air they were pushing clearly. I lost no volume with the speaker box so im gonna keep it for now as its giving me the exact sound I want.