Music Compiliation Poll

[noddin0ff]

I like to hear new music. I don't know what's out there because I'm not bleeding edge. I like the convenience of downloadable compilations. I'm wondering why they're not more popular. What gives? Take a moment. Thanks.

multiple selections permitted.

[nobody]

I'm not really wild about the sound quality of MP3s...although I do listen to them to see if I like something then buy it in another form if I do. I prefer vinyl, so listening on the stereo at home is usually records. CDs get some play too, but MP3s really only in the car where I have a crappy stereo anyway...although even there vinyl burned to CD sounds best.

I'm too lazy to download the software and figure out what's up with the lossless formats, but I probably should. Used to be lots of folks willing to mail around comps on this board. I preferred that to downloads, but maybe if I worked out the lossless stuff it would be just as good.

[Wireworm5]

I missed out on Napster but I made up for it on Galaxy before they shut that down. You could find almost any song you were looking for and at a high bitrate. Now with the fear of lawsuits everyone is running scared and no longer share like they did a few years back.
So I only use it to sample a song if I can find it and if its good I'll buy the cd. 128 mp3 aren't good enough for me and that's pretty much all that's out there now with a few exceptions. As for paying for mp3 on a licensed website, NO. I'm an audiophile if I have to pay then I want the best recording available.
Gone are the good ol' days, sigh.

[jrhymeammo]

When I buy records, I wish they gave me like a code that I can use on labels' website so transfer songs on to my PC/IPod.

From what I've observed, alot of indie supporters are the ones stealing music from their favorite musicians. When I confront them they aways gimmie that "they make alot of money on tours, and I support them by going to their shows". Time like that, I wish I had a Bazooka.

If I steal music, Im basicially telling artists I like that their music/effort isnt worth my money.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey WW5, I dont know you or your habits, so let me use you as an example.



So I only use it to sample a song if I can find it and if its good I'll buy the cd.


That's another classic line people use. How many good songs do you have on your harddrive? Out of 100 songs kids steal, they may buy 5 CDs, And 5 is really good. Why kids even buy CDs when they got songs they like on their PCs. What about artists' websites? Most of artist will allow users to hear full length songs(1-3). If you hear it 2-3 times, isnt that good enough for you to go get a CD?
How about snippets from music sites? Snippets aren't long enough? With snippets, you dont have to "risk" stealing 1 song. You can hear 30-60 secs of each songs.
How about MySpace. Most of artists have things set up so users can hear 3-5 songs in full-lenghth. Why isnt that good enough for you?

Again WW5, I'm just using your as an example since I noticed that line you used is something I come across from kids I know. Dont take it personal. Like I said I dont know you and all I can do is to take your word for it. I'm not insinuating anything here towards you.

[jrhymeammo]

One more thing.
When I see titles I like, I buy used CDs and LPs so that makes me a hypocrite.

-JRA

[Wireworm5]

Oh, don't worry about the record companies losing money. They soaked consumers for years and so we got some payback for a few years. Instead of making 500 million a year they made 100 million, big deal, I for one won't be shedding a tear. I don't suppose they felt they ripped me off the last time I bought 10 cds over the internet and only one was any good. And guys like my brother and I are making up for people who don't buy cds.
Then there's the question is it really stealing? Well lets see, radio companies have been broadcasting music over the airways for decades. How many people have listened to this music for free all these years and copied them on tape recorders. I never heard it being an issue 'til the internet. So why all of a sudden the concern? Because they are not making a dollar on it. Excuse me !! You've made millions of dollars already from the people who bought the music they heard for free over the radio for the last 50 years.
If the military broadcasts their codes for war over a radio. Is it stealing if the enemy intercepts this code copies it down on paper and tries to crack it so they know what there enemy's doing? No, you know the enemy is listening and expect him to try and decipher your code. So is it wrong that I intercept a radio signal broadcast for everyone to hear on my tuner and record it on a computer and then code it to mp3? No.
Then we have tv where we can watch baseball,football or hockey for free. All we have to do is endure the commercials that go along with it. Is anyone concerned that I may never go to a live sporting event in my life. No! they make there money by having miillions of people exposed to a product in the hope that enough people will by the commercial product or become fans of that sport and attend and support their local teams.
So having millions of people exposed to music they never would have heard before the internet now is somehow theft. No, this is advertising like tv has been doing only they didn't make money on it. But they've finally caught up, now you can go to the store and buy a mp3 card for $10 or $50 bucks and download a number of songs.
I think many unknown artists finally got some exposure that they otherwise never would have gotten if people had to pay to sample their music. So if anything its helped the music industry. If their sales are down maybe its because there are more entertainment choices now than there was 10 or 15 years ago. And it had nothing to do with people downloading music.

[nobody]

[QUOTE=jrhymeammo]When I buy records, I wish they gave me like a code that I can use on labels' website so transfer songs on to my PC/IPod.

/QUOTE]

This would be the best setup I think. And, I've seen a couple releases do it. It would probably get me to buy an iPod if it was common practice. I could get the vinyl for home and download to the iPod to carry and play in the car. That would pretty much give me the best of both worlds.

[Slosh]

You people are missing the point. This to me is the next logical evolutionary step in comp trading. No more CD-Rs and jewel cases, no more postage, no more media mailers, no more wasting your time (and money) sending these things out to people who don't really want them . . . yet the end result is the same: CD-quality (truly) mixes that are just a mouse click away.

They've been doing this at Obner for a while but virtually all of those mixes are mp3. I'd like to see more FLAC (or any other lossless format) mixes put up here.

[nobody]

well.my inability to sleep past like 6 am has me motivated to finnally download all new audio stuff for my machine. Got EAC, FLAC, ogg and LAME. I'm hoping it is all I need to do whatever I would come across...along with GoldWave, which I already use.

Downloading that FLAC jazz comp now, so I'll find out how I like the FLAC files soon enough.

A question though. Does EAC only rip from disc to hard drive, or does it burn to disc as well?

Is my EasyCD Creator gonna be useless now?

[Jim Clark]

I'm all for it. Mailed or d/l makes no difference to me. I'm not going to bother with MP3's though. I want flac or some other lossless format and flac is most popular so I'll stick with that. I haven't comp'd this ytd mainly because I haven't bought much that I think people around here would have much interest in and to be honest I've bought a ton of stuff with only a couple of decent tracks. This is much different than previous years. The Still's disc for example has a great track, the rest is garbage. I was stunned that after the stellar debut that this was so far beneath it. If I comp that good track it looks like I'm rec'ing the disc, and I can't. I've pissed away a whole lot of money this year. It's just been in the last month that some really good discs have popped up on my radar.

My year end disc will however be killer as usual ; )

Who knows, I may even offer up a bit of a preview.

jc

[Stone]

I don't understand the question. You mean compilations by people like you and me? Or do you mean officially released comps?

There is no barrier to me for downloading fan-made comps. I do it often. I listen to comps to see if I want to buy an album or albums by one or more artists, so it works well. However, I do miss the cover art of them (but I'll get that with the officially released albums if I buy them).

[noddin0ff]

I should post a poll "Why do so few respond to polls". But, thanks to those (so far) who have.

It looks like (so far) it's mostly an issue of quality, with some concerns about not distributing music too freely.

I think both these issues can be easily addressed.

First, FLAC quality is the same as CD quality. There is not info lost. If you convert it back to a lossless format (WAV, AIFF) and burn to a CD, the tracks for all intents and purposes are identical to the original CD--assuming that they were converted to FLAC from a lossless format or ripped to FLAC from CD. Both Slosh and myself have posted lossless comps. I also think FLAC is the most accessible free format for which software can be readily downloaded on both PC and Mac platforms. From FLAC you can convert to what ever you want for what ever device you wish to listen with. The only downside of FLAC, or any lossless compression is that it only achieves about 2 fold reduction in size from the original. But, if bandwidth is not a problem this is not a problem.

With regards to sharing... I don't really like to make music available for abusive download either, but I do think that sharing comps within a smallish community is not abusive. Three easy solutions. I like #2 best.

1) Creat downloadable .zip files which require a password to unzip. PM poster for pass.

2) Require a PM to obtain the download link

The file sharing site that Slosh (and I) used deletes the files after 7 days of innactivity. I think this is reasonable as well for controlling downloads and serving intent.

I'll wait for more responses to the poll...

[bobsticks]

Well, I might as well throw down, though I doubt it will be instructive. As a relative computer newb (I'm still trying to figure out how to "host" pictures of album covers so I don't flood the user galleries with useless pics) i'm still getting my sealegs with the concept of file types and compatability. This would then throw me in the camp of those concerned with quality and user friendliness.
As far as ethics go, I agree, to an extent, with JRA. Assuming that we're talking about downloading an entire album, or even the majority of one, I fell it is sending a bad message. The artists, afterall, have labored long and hard and deserve to make their scratch. Now, if yer talkin' about fan-made comps with multiple artists, I don't think that's such a bad deal. I've had some characters send me comps that have resulted in my buying five or seven cds to get more of some specific artists. As I might never have been exposed to these artists, I fail to see the harm and the record companies got more money in the end.
If the original artist is dead, then in my book all bets are off. What do I care if Artist X's wife's second cousin's son gets a royalty check because he's listed in the "estate". As someone who stands to lose a pretty penny due to this country's "Death Tax" I have a hard time singing a song of woe for the estates.

At the end of the day, it's really a wash for me. I still like going brick and mortar, and the thrill of the hunt is invigorating. A lot of times, when I am not hunting something in particular, I buy labels. I've found some great gems that way, and with Chesky, Telarc, et al. I've heard some pretty amazing sq that I have not heard rivalled by somebody's pc.

I guess, as of now, I remain not-so-blissfully ignorant and on the fence...

[nobody]

I prefer to call it the "Estate Tax". We all have to die and there is no tax on that. Very few of have to worry about the problems of being taxed on large estates coming to us.

[Slosh]

Yeah, no one is suggesting putting up whole albums here. The one exception to that would be albums that are OOP but even then I think this should only be done via PM. The couple of comps I have put up here were all of the homemade various artists type - really just to see if anyone around here would have any interest in such a thing. Now that there does seem to be a wee bit of interest any comps I upload in the future will only be available via PM (so don't say anything to piss me off!) :p Just seems easier all around vs. the old way of doing this with CD-Rs and the postal service. (And hey, no more customs slips to fill out for international mail) :)

[Troy]

I like bees.

[bobsticks]

nobody--Just to set the record straight without getting too far off topic, I wasn't defaming the estate taxes. If we as a society have elected to tax inheritences at a higher rate I say fine. Hell, I didn't do any of the earning and I know the money goes to good use. My point was/is that rationale should extend across the board. Miles Davis' nephew didn't write, arrange, record, or perform "So What". He can make his way in the world like the rest of us...

Slosh--Sounds very cool even for the digitally challenged, and a good deal to skip the custom slips which give me the heebeegeebees.

Troy--Not a big fan of bees, myself, although I do recognize their importance within the ecosystem. Having an illustrious history of beating things, I opted for beating rocks with sticks as my back-up position

[shokhead]

Quality sound is why i dont. I dont want anything worst then a store bought cd.

[nobody]

I'll try to jump off the political bandwagon...the whole "death tax" thing is just a pet peeve of mine, and at the same time one of my favorite examples of excellent political rhetoric by conservatives. By making the common usage death tax rather than estate tax, people look at it much differently. It sounds universal, like death, rather than something that only effects people with over 2 million bucks...which is hardly universal and befits a name with the ring of a word like estate.

I see your point on the artist earnings, although oddly while in favor of taxing estate earnings I do feel going to the families of the musicians is the proper place for the majority of the money since it is no different than the man who built a business of any other tangible asset that he passes down. It was just a bit odd that you would use the nomenclature specifically designed to defame the tax if you are expressing an acceptance of its status.

And with that, I'll drop it as we all have our feelings and I can't exactly see my changing anyone's mind here and now.

OH....and I've got all the FLAC stuff now and EAC, as long as I'm talking software. EAC does indeed seem to be better for sound quality as I used it when transfering some vinyl I burnt to my computer and then to another disc. I tried to download the jazz comp on flac to see about that, but it hung up about halfway through part one and I haven't had a chance to retry it yet. If I like it, I may have to post my own FLAC comp sometime in the near future.

[bobsticks]

Hey nobody,

I'm not lookin' for a scrap either, so for my part I'll leave you with this thought. It's possible to accept something's existence, understand its necessity, and rationalize its overall social benefits--and still not like it...and I'll be the first to admit that that is from a position of pure self-interest! At this point, I think any further off topic debate should be handled over a beer at a location of mutual agreement.

Did you just do a google search for FLAC, etc.? And are these properties that one attaches to an existing media player or are they separate entities on their own?

Peace out

[nobody]

Yeah...I just Googled the stuff. FLAC has a stand alone program, FLAC Frontend that converts the files to FLAC and back to wav files. You can also get a plug in if you use Win Amp as your player to play FLAC files directly.

I also finally grabbed EAC, which I've seen touted around here and elsewhere for ages. I'm already a convert after a couple uses. I'll probably still keep my easy CD Creator software for my wife to use as it is a bit more user friendly, but I can tell a difference in quality, perhaps because I'm often using it to rip stuff onto the computer from CD-RWs that I use to copy vinyl onto disc and I've heard they are more error prone. It takes much longer to rip to your hard drive than Soundstream, but that's because it uses some pretty heavy duty error correction. And, in answer to my earlier question, yes it does burn to disc as well...and that it does quickly and cleanly. You can also convert and burn different file formats on the fly. I still need to figure out the setting to write titles to the discs. I thought I was doing so, but it ended up not working on the two I copied. If anyone knows how, I could use a pointer.

And, yup, I totally see the difference between understanding the benefit of something and liking it personally. If I had a shot at some fat cash, I'd be pissed if I was gonna get it halved as well...even if I felt it was for the best. Human nature.

[3-LockBox]

I will download a song or even an album, provided I find it in high bitrate formats. Anything less than 320kbps sounds bad to me and even 320k is barely above tape quality on my main rig.

As far as the morality issue of downloading; its a mixed bag with me. Sure, artists should get compensated for their efforts, but I know a lot of people who tsk-tsk downloading still go out and buy used CDs...a lot of the time, if I like something I've downloaded really well, I'll buy it on CD (used if I can find it). Comps have lead to many of my CD purchases since finding this website.

I have yet to download one of those comps though, since I don't want to figure out how to use an Apple product on my PC based machine.

[noddin0ff]

I have yet to download one of those comps though, since I don't want to figure out how to use an Apple product on my PC based machine.

No Apple products are necessary. Nor are any Microsoft products for that matter. Don't know where you'd get that idea. FLAC is open source.

[3-LockBox]

No Apple products are necessary. Nor are any Microsoft products for that matter. Don't know where you'd get that idea. FLAC is open source.

Thought FLAC was developed by Apple...

[noddin0ff]

Thought FLAC was developed by Apple...

FLAC = Free Lossless Audio Codec.

You may be confusing it with Apple's lossy AAC format? or their lossless ALE? ...because they all have an 'A' in them? ;-)

Apple's iEmpire does not support FLAC.

More info than you can shake a can of bees at regarding FLAC can be found here
http://flac.sourceforge.net/

[BradH]

It takes much longer to rip to your hard drive than Soundstream, but that's because it uses some pretty heavy duty error correction.

Actually, EAC doesn't use error correction. Here's what it does: It rips a section and then re-reads that section on the disc and compares it to what it just ripped. If it's the same it goes on to the next section. If it's not, it re-rips that section up to something like sixteen times until it's right (I can't remember the exact number). All other ripping software will just swallow the error and move on but if EAC is in Secure Mode it abandons the whole project if it can't get it right after the total number of tries. At that point you try again, sometimes it will eventually work if the problem is caused by scratches on the disc. EAC is a cut above other ripping software because a successful rip in Secure Mode guarantees you got the real thing. Of course, this is a little rough on the CDR drive and some people don't like it for that but it's better than having a flawed rip sitting on your hard drive masquerading as a good rip. Just be sure to use EAC in Secure Mode because if you're not you might as well be using other software.


I still need to figure out the setting to write titles to the discs.

Just yesterday I read somewhere that it's not a good idea. I'll see if I can find that. I burn w/ Feurio because it's the only one that burns on sector boundaries. But EAC in Secure Mode is THE standard for the ripping.


Quality sound is why i dont. I dont want anything worst then a store bought cd.

FLAC files are identical in sound quality to the source they were converted from. Same w/ APE and SHN files. That's why they're called "lossless" as opposed to mp3's which are "lossy". You can even run an MD5 checksum comparison and check it out. In fact, SHN files are often traded/posted with an MD5 file to make sure what you got is the same as what was on the sender's hard drive. For the truly anal, you can even track it from the hard drive to the data disc to another hard drive, each step along the way. The beauty of FLAC is it has its own internal checksums so you don't have to mess with that.

[nobody]

So...are you saying Feurio burns better than EAC or that it burns better than EAC if I'm wanting to write titles to the CD?

[3-LockBox]

OK...can someone point me the direction of one of your FLAC comps so I can give it a go?

[BradH]

So...are you saying Feurio burns better than EAC or that it burns better than EAC if I'm wanting to write titles to the CD?

No, I'm not sure Feurio can even write titles to a cd, that's a separate issue. What I'm saying is they have different features for burning. Feurio is the only software that burns on sector boundaries. Sector Boundary Errors (or SBE's) are a big issue with bootleg traders because it can introduce gaps in the audience applause between songs. It's irritating as hell so that's why I use Feurio. But all burning software sucks in one way or another, it's just a matter of which feature is important to you. A lot of serious traders burn w/ EAC so I'm sure it's better than Acraptec or any other bundled software.

I can't remember if the text titling issue was specific to EAC or not. I'll see if I can find that article later tonight.

[Dusty Chalk]

Actually, EAC doesn't use error correction. Here's what it does: Then why does it have that little "error correction" bar? The cute little one in the ripping window with the faux red LEDs? And why does it have options for C2 error reporting on the drive? Methinks you've got it wrong. Or at least, optionally wrong.

[BradH]

Then why does it have that little "error correction" bar? The cute little one in the ripping window with the faux red LEDs? And why does it have options for C2 error reporting on the drive? Methinks you've got it wrong. Or at least, optionally wrong.

Good point about the C2 error reporting. I don't use it so I completely forgot about it.

But the LED thing is cool. It's got five rows of sixteen blocks each, representing five series of sixteen re-reads before EAC reports an error at which point the whole LED thing is lit. I guess you could call that "error correction" but it's not in the traditional way I think of it. My point earlier was that it's this re-read function that makes EAC slower than other rippers. Also, I don't think it necessarily abandons the project like I said earlier (although that may be an option). I've seen it re-read and report errors forever on a crapped out disc.

Check out these tutorials from the Coaster Factory. Great stuff for EAC users, especially the Quick Start Manual for beginning users.

http://users.pandora.be/satcp/tutorials.htm

[Dusty Chalk]

No, I thought it was doing actual error correction on that faux-LED bar. After reading that site, I see that you are correct, and that it basically rereads until it gets what it thinks is accurate data. That's not error correction, that's redundant checking. I thought redbook had some sort of CRC or whatnot, and that it was checking against that.

That said, I am right about the C2 thing. But I'll admit I was wrong about the faux-LED bar.

[BradH]

I thought redbook had some sort of CRC or whatnot, and that it was checking against that.

Now there's an interesting idea. But I doubt the industry wants to do anything to encourage accurate ripping.