going analog at last

[accastil]

hi guys! very soon ill be buying a TT. before doing so, i have some questions:
1) what is the best TT within my 280 to 480usd budget?
2) which is better, buying a preamp with phono input or adding a phono stage to my exsting preamp...assuming the same budget will be spent on both options
3) what is MM and MC phono stages?
4) what are the most important considerations to look for in buying TT and/or phono stages?

pardon my ignorance, im new to analog music. :)

[Jim Clark]

hi guys! very soon ill be buying a TT. before doing so, i have some questions:
1) what is the best TT within my 280 to 480usd budget?
2) which is better, buying a preamp with phono input or adding a phono stage to my exsting preamp...assuming the same budget will be spent on both options
3) what is MM and MC phono stages?
4) what are the most important considerations to look for in buying TT and/or phono stages?

pardon my ignorance, im new to analog music. :)

From one "just getting back into it" guy to another.

It's kind of fun but I'll tell you right now I'm discovering how darned expensive the whole thing is and I'm not buying state of the art stuff here. Be prepared as there are expenses that continue to mount for the records, test records, cleaning system, brushes, cartridges, scales, static treatments and probably several other things I'm forgetting about that are equally important.

1). Wouldn't have any idea but I like the idea of used equipement. Vintage equipment if you can handle the cleaning, lubricating, and set up yourself or have a reasonably priced shop that can help you.

2). Everything I've read points to a seperate phono preamp being the best option. Of course there are always exceptions due to lousy preamps and really good add on stages.

3). Different cartridge technology requires different gain stages for the preamp. Many are configured to handle both, occasionally it's as simple as flipping a toggle switch on the preamp. Somtimes it requires jumper settings on the circuit board be changes and I guess sometimes the preamp is for just one or the other.

4). I wanted to make sure it was something I was gonna jack with before I went too wild. Actually I'm still at that stage buying used/vintage equipment that is not too expensive just in case I decide it's more trouble than it's worth. Even then this is easily going to end up costing more than a thousand dollars and were not even begining to approach high end.

It has been fun so far but I do still have several boxes of albums on hand that haven't seen the light of day for years. Still, I don't see myself progressing past the point of the Dual CS 5000 that I'm expecting to show up tomorrow.

jc

[Mr Peabody]

You can get either a Music Hall or ProJect with cartridge for $400.00 or less. I haven't heard either but lean toward the Music Hall based on things I've read and they come with a Goldring cartridge.

Moving Magnet has a higher output than Moving Coil that's why they need different levels of preamplification. I've only used Moving Magnet so I cannot discuss any difference in sound. I notice that Moving Coil is more expensive usually than Moving Magnet. Moving Coil sometimes requires some demagnification.

If you have a shop that will set the turntable up for you, you don't really need a lot of gadgets and tools. The only stuff I use regularly is a album and stylus cleaning systems.

If you already have gear, I'd recommend just buying an outboard phono stage. There are a few good ones in your price. One I've used and highly recommend is the Creek OBH-8. It is Class A circuit, under $200.00 and sounds outstanding for the money. I believe both ProJect and Music Hall offer their own entry level phono stages as well.

What to look for, sound quality and sound quality. If you are getting into albums I hope you have a good used store in your area or a stash already because although new albums are usually remastered audiophile pressings, they ain't cheap. Flea markets or yard sales can also be good places to look.

[jrhymeammo]

What is your total budget for phonopre, cart, interconnect(least important) and TT? It's all relative, but you may want to spend 40% of budget on external phono-pre, 30% on TT, then whatever you got left over/you can afford on a cart. As long as you have a solid TT, phono pre and cart will give you more sound for your money. You may want to consider a used TT, since whatever free cart you'll get with a new TT isnt going to play decent sound, Sumiko Oyster cartridge I got with my Xpression was the worst sounding cartridge I've heard in my life(in my system with my taste).I wish they offered $20 discount for not including that $55 cart.

[tin ear]

you may want to spend 40% of budget on external phono-pre

Not hijacking the thread, but thanks for that guidline JRA.

-j

[accastil]

what about the rega TTs compared to the project? are they as good?

[basite]

depends on it, rega is really really good, but so is pro-ject, in fact if you can get a new rega p3, you're off better with a rega then a pro ject in the same price class.

[Mr Peabody]

I through Pro-Ject in because of your budget. To my knowledge Rega tables starting price is slightly above your limit. In my opinion, I prefer Rega over Pro-Ject at the same price points, in fact, I would even take a cheaper Rega over a higher price PJ.

[jrhymeammo]

what about the rega TTs compared to the project? are they as good?

If wow & flatter, SN ratio, and speed accuracy are similar, then go for the one with best tonearm. The way companies measure their specs may be different, kinda like measuring wattage. Rega RB250 arms are supposed to one of the best arms in audio today. You can adjust VTA with optional armboard base, but not sure if they are compatible with arms designed based on RB250.

I've read that Rega P3 has about 1% of speed error. That is unacceptable and I'm far from being an elitist jerk. Of coursre they may have fixed this problem, since the article I read was published in Feb 2003. http://www.aslgroup.com/nottingham/StereophileHorizon.pdf

Good luck. I see you've been reading old threads and reviving them.
Is analog coming back? I hope so, but I have to ask you to stop going to my favorite record stores. If you do then buy electronica, country, and 80's rock :biggrin5:

Good luck
-JRA

[PeruvianSkies]

To be an audiophile/audio enthusiast whatever you want to call it...it requires some of the most amazing disciplines. This is a hobby unlike many others because it is a hobby that is always moving forward and the quest for 'The Ultimate' experience. It requires money at just about any level and that's not even taking into consideration the amount of time and dedication that is required.

I once considered getting into Vinyl and analog, but the problem is that it costs 2X, 3X, 10X more on many levels. Because you are working with a fairly unpopular format it's hard to find the gear out there and it becomes a crazy obsession. I have decided to limit myself and worry more about just the digital-end of things and still keep film as my main passion. I don't mean to use the word 'unpopular' to descibe the medium, but that's the only word that really comes to mind that captures what I am talking about. I guess that is just because you have to be really intentionally about where to find your stuff and everything is mainly second market stuff.

[accastil]

I through Pro-Ject in because of your budget. To my knowledge Rega tables starting price is slightly above your limit. In my opinion, I prefer Rega over Pro-Ject at the same price points, in fact, I would even take a cheaper Rega over a higher price PJ.
really? coz as of yesterday, my choice is down to rega p3 and project debut3...in that case i might as well wait until next month when the p3s would be available. project has its own phono stages...how about regas? what phono stage might go well with it? is it ok to use a project phonostage while my TT is a rega p3?

[JohnMichael]

I will vote for the Rega P3. My Rega Planar 2 has been trouble free for many years. The arms are excellent. As far as a phono preamp you can use whatever brand you would like as long as it has enough gain to amplify your choice of cartridge. If you will be using a moving magnet or a high output moving coil any phono preamp will work. Rega does make a phono preamp. The one I use is from Rotel and I have been very pleased with it. Several members like the Belari Tube preamp. Lots of good choices.

[JoeE SP9]

To be an audiophile/audio enthusiast whatever you want to call it...it requires some of the most amazing disciplines. This is a hobby unlike many others because it is a hobby that is always moving forward and the quest for 'The Ultimate' experience. It requires money at just about any level and that's not even taking into consideration the amount of time and dedication that is required.

I once considered getting into Vinyl and analog, but the problem is that it costs 2X, 3X, 10X more on many levels. Because you are working with a fairly unpopular format it's hard to find the gear out there and it becomes a crazy obsession. I have decided to limit myself and worry more about just the digital-end of things and still keep film as my main passion. I don't mean to use the word 'unpopular' to descibe the medium, but that's the only word that really comes to mind that captures what I am talking about. I guess that is just because you have to be really intentionally about where to find your stuff and everything is mainly second market stuff.

I don't know where you live but throughout most of the USA vinyl and devices to play and clean it are readily available. You have but to look around and see that there is plenty of new source material and hardware for playing vinyl. In fact there seems to be more choices in TT's in more price ranges than ever before.:confused:

[accastil]

I will vote for the Rega P3. My Rega Planar 2 has been trouble free for many years. The arms are excellent. As far as a phono preamp you can use whatever brand you would like as long as it has enough gain to amplify your choice of cartridge. If you will be using a moving magnet or a high output moving coil any phono preamp will work. Rega does make a phono preamp. The one I use is from Rotel and I have been very pleased with it. Several members like the Belari Tube preamp. Lots of good choices.
i guess the right match up is the new rega p1 and the project debut3...btw, is the project phono stage mk2 good enough for the debut3? the debut 3 comes with an ortofon om 5e..is this cartridge good?

[jrhymeammo]

Rega P1 with RB100 tonarm? Of course I've seen it, but wow that may become a budget component of the year!!!! In that sub $400 category, we've only had maybe 2 to choose from. LP playback must be coming back.
Superpanama70mm is right though. Analog setup do cost alot. This is sort of a niche market, but selections are huge. I love having the options of changing sound.
Most of the free pre-mounted cartridge will get you spinning happily until you have more budget to get a different cart.

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, what JohnMichael said. I used the Creek OBH-8 with my P3 for quite a while until I got upgrade fever. It worked quite well. But there are many options.

I've forgot the model but I used a couple P-mount Ortofon's in the past and was very happy with them. Cost was under $100.00. This was on a cheaper rig.

[3db]

really? coz as of yesterday, my choice is down to rega p3 and project debut3...in that case i might as well wait until next month when the p3s would be available. project has its own phono stages...how about regas? what phono stage might go well with it? is it ok to use a project phonostage while my TT is a rega p3?

are at considerable different price points with the former being considered near midlevel and the latter entry level.

Regarding Project, I've read many a review of their products from Stereophile to Home Theater from high end to entry level and they have received nothing but stellar reviews at all levels. I'm wondering how many of you here have heard Project and Rega side by side and of equal dollar value in a DBT to see which is better.

What I've read and researched doesn't add up to whats being said here.

[jrhymeammo]

For anyone who's interested in getting into vinyl with a new deck, I would recoomend pro-ject debut/MH MF2.1 w/ a speed box. With a price of speedbox w/ MH2.1, PJ Debut3, and P2 would be closer. I'll say this again, but speed accuracy is very important. Has anyone checked P2 with a strobe disc? I havent but from what I've read, it is a problem. 1%+/- can significiantly alter sound tonality. If that has been resolved, TTs with RB250 will be a great buy under $500.

[Mr Peabody]

3dB, what is, being said here? No one said anything bad about ProJect. All I've read was our opinion, preference. Apparently all you've done was "read & research", most of us who have commented do own or have used some of this gear we have been posting on. I'd take someone's opinion who has heard the gear over some one who has just read a magazine. I don't care what Stereophile says, I make my own opinion on what gear I personally enjoy to listen to. And, I personally own Rega.

One of the high end shop here pride themselves on carrying brands, they, feel sounds best at certain price points. They carry Rega, ProJect and Linn. ProJect is the entry level and they stop carrying it at the point where Rega starts and then Linn. If ProJect made better sounding tables than Rega, I'd think they would carry more of the ProJect line and less, or eliminate the Rega. I'm sure there are others who prefer the ProJect, they are still in business.

Some one asked for our opinion and we were happy to give it to them. Opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them. If anyone was out to trash ProJect, we wouldn't have suggested them along with the other options. Don't even bring up DBT, here's another one of my opinions, they are BS and never proved anything.

[jrhymeammo]

Ahhhhhhhhh here it is.
http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm
Rega is probably the most respected tonearm maker in the industry. I would seriosuly doubt REGA would introduce anything sub-par to ruine their brand. With that in mind, RB100 should be a solid piece.
I wonder how much P1 is going to be. It has be competitively priced with PJ and MH.($350-450) I just might go buy a stereo magazine for first time in years when it comes out.

[3db]

3dB, what is, being said here? No one said anything bad about ProJect. All I've read was our opinion, preference. Apparently all you've done was "read & research", most of us who have commented do own or have used some of this gear we have been posting on. I'd take someone's opinion who has heard the gear over some one who has just read a magazine. I don't care what Stereophile says, I make my own opinion on what gear I personally enjoy to listen to. And, I personally own Rega.

One of the high end shop here pride themselves on carrying brands, they, feel sounds best at certain price points. They carry Rega, ProJect and Linn. ProJect is the entry level and they stop carrying it at the point where Rega starts and then Linn. If ProJect made better sounding tables than Rega, I'd think they would carry more of the ProJect line and less, or eliminate the Rega. I'm sure there are others who prefer the ProJect, they are still in business.

Some one asked for our opinion and we were happy to give it to them. Opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them. If anyone was out to trash ProJect, we wouldn't have suggested them along with the other options. Don't even bring up DBT, here's another one of my opinions, they are BS and never proved anything.

All I'm asking is did the people listen to both turntables before offering an opinion? Its no good to say one is better than the other if they hadn't heard both. And before buying anything, researching about the product of interest is never a bad thing.

I've heard Rega P2 turntables and I've also heard Oracle turntable with a Delphi arm but I can't say which one sounded better to me because I've listened to them at different times thru different equipment.

As far as DBT go, its the only fair way to to test between similar products because it eliminates brand name bias. And if the test subjetc cannot distinguish between the items tested, it means that the products are very close to one another in terms of performance or the listener's hearing is at fault. If its the latter, then buying something more expensive is really a waste of that listeneres money.

[3db]

3dB, what is, being said here? No one said anything bad about ProJect. All I've read was our opinion, preference. Apparently all you've done was "read & research", most of us who have commented do own or have used some of this gear we have been posting on. I'd take someone's opinion who has heard the gear over some one who has just read a magazine. I don't care what Stereophile says, I make my own opinion on what gear I personally enjoy to listen to. And, I personally own Rega.

One of the high end shop here pride themselves on carrying brands, they, feel sounds best at certain price points. They carry Rega, ProJect and Linn. ProJect is the entry level and they stop carrying it at the point where Rega starts and then Linn. If ProJect made better sounding tables than Rega, I'd think they would carry more of the ProJect line and less, or eliminate the Rega. I'm sure there are others who prefer the ProJect, they are still in business.

Some one asked for our opinion and we were happy to give it to them. Opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them. If anyone was out to trash ProJect, we wouldn't have suggested them along with the other options. Don't even bring up DBT, here's another one of my opinions, they are BS and never proved anything.

You can get either a Music Hall or ProJect with cartridge for $400.00 or less. I haven't heard either but lean toward the Music Hall based on things I've read and they come with a Goldring cartridge.


All I'm asking is did the people listen to both turntables before offering an opinion? Its no good to say one is better than the other if they haven't heard both. Apparently you are doing the same, offering an opinion on a make you've not heard. Music Hall turntables are build by Project from what I read here on this forum. And before buying anything, researching about the product of interest is never a bad thing.

I've heard Rega P2 turntables and I've also heard Oracle turntable with a Delphi arm but I can't say which one sounded better to me because I've listened to them at different times thru different equipment.

As far as DBT go, its the only fair way to to test between similar products because it eliminates brand name bias. And if the test subjetc cannot distinguish between the items tested, it means that the products are very close to one another in terms of performance or the listener's hearing is at fault. If its the latter, then buying something more expensive is really a waste of that listeneres money.

[emorphien]

I certainly recommend any Rega, I've got the P2 and you might even be able to find a new one in your pricerange if you look (www.cadencebuilding.com is where I got mine).

[Mr Peabody]

Keep in mind if you decide to order off the internet, you will need some one with experience and some gadgets to set this thing up. A brand new Rega comes completely disassembled. Proper set up is CRITICAL for optimum performance. If you wanted to buy the gadgets and learn how to set a turntable up there is a DVD that will teach you pretty much all you need to know, available at www.amusicdirect.com. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head. If you call or email, I'm sure they will know what you are talking about, there's only one out that I know of. Luckily the local shop set mine up. Many of the set up tools are pretty expensive. It may be worth it if you plan to change carts a lot or tinker with it. Once mine is set, I just play it and leave it alone otherwise.

[jrhymeammo]

Once mine is set, I just play it and leave it alone otherwise.

How can you do that?(just curious:)) After awhile, cantileaver suspension can shag. Do you not raise your VTA after several hundred hours? Or do you swap your cart before any of that happens?

-JRA

[accastil]

mates, ive taken home the project debut 3 but still have not set it up at home. ive listened to it with at least 5 albums while in the shop and i know ill be happy with it more when its already set up at home. ive already asked the salesman to set it up for me and has transported it in that condition. id let you know about my impression once it starts spining at home. my initial LPs are linda ronstadt and lionel richie :)