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2chAlex
10-08-2006, 11:51 AM
Been out of the loop for an few weeks due to job travels. Well after Sunday morn breakfast and needing a walk went to a newly open CC (something I rarely due). The new store layout IMO is bad. I see HK has departed, hopefully a decision made by HK to help regain brand status, replaced by Denon. The real suprise was Boston Acoustics, and not the CR series but VR. Boston has as far I remember has stayed away from big box stores. So is this a good thing for Boston in light of the history of HK at CC?

bobsticks
10-08-2006, 03:04 PM
Hey Alex,

Welcome back. Just taking a guess, but I would imagine that after the relative commercial failure of the AVR 7100 &7120 that BA may be re-examining their name recognition and overall spot in the market. They may be aiming for the high volume (and cost-cutting) approach of the big box merchants. It's kind of sad because I understand those units were superb, but they may have outpriced themselves. So is it a good thing? Probably is from a solvency perspective but I would imagine build quality will suffer...

natronforever
10-08-2006, 03:42 PM
I think it's great that nicer brands are being made available at a big box store. Why can't something nice be sold at a big box store? Last time I was in a BB store, I couldn't find a single speaker I would want to have in my house. People today are learning more about home theater than before, as it's becoming something of a standard for entertainment. If people walk in a store like CC, and hear a real speaker like those from Boston, then perhaps they would stop buying the crap they've been buying for the past 4-5 years or so and start looking at some real equipment, budgets permitting. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens. The only negative I could possibly foresee is that it may be harder for specialty shops (small businesses) to compete with the likes of CC and BB if they start selling the good stuff for cheaper. I don't like little businesses always being buried by the big ones.

FYI, I bought my home theater speakers about 3 years ago on my poor man's budget. CC was selling some flawless display models that were being phased out to make way for the updated speakers. I got the Polk RTi-38's for $75 each, the CSi-30 for $125, and the FXi-30's for $70 each. Not too bad, seeing as how a specialty shop would have sold them for the ~$225 each retail price they all carried. Heaven help me, they've been great and I love listening to them, especially since I matched them up with a SVS PB10-isd.

PeruvianSkies
10-08-2006, 10:47 PM
Here's something else to think about....

Right now stores are trying to push the new HD formats right? Well, wouldn't it also make sense to sell people products that can offer high quality sound? For me, if the picture is so clear I can practically walk into the scene that is playing, but the sound is like that of the speaker in an elevator...it really doesn't matter. I would trade picture quality for sound quality anyday. The margins in picture quality are much smaller than those in sound quality.

Unfortunately too many people want their HT system to 'blend' in the room, so they buy those tiny all in one deal, which we all know are a disaster waiting to happen. I suppose those microsystems are for some people out there, but most people are amazed once they actually hear really good sound and the front line of that should begin at places like BB or CC etc etc.

bobsticks
10-09-2006, 08:07 PM
Hey Gentlemen,

FWIW, I have no problem with something nice being sold at big box merchants. I like convenience and I sure don't mind saving a buck. The problem arises small to medium size companies have to meet the production demands of big box. Often it results in outsourcing on a massive scale and can lead to inequities in quality across a product line. If Boston can find a way to step up to the challenge without sacrificing quality and innovation, I say more power to 'em. Time will tell...

Cheers

bobsticks
10-09-2006, 08:09 PM
I would trade picture quality for sound quality anyday. .

Amen to that brother! :thumbsup: (you'll always be Super70 to me:))

natronforever
10-11-2006, 11:57 AM
What I hope CC would do is sell the Boston's for what they are - nice speakers. What they don't need is another Polk and Infinity speaker, as they're already covered in that department. I mean, people walk into CC every day and spend over 2 grand for a TV, so why not offer a more expensive speaker? That way, Boston can benefit from the mass-marketability offered at CC, while not feel forced to sacrifice too much on build quality. That said, we all know that the Bostons would be sold for less at CC than at a specialty shop. You said it best, bobsticks, "time will tell".

topspeed
10-11-2006, 01:46 PM
Boston Acoustics shouldn't really be used as a barometer for quality at B&M stores. About 2 years ago, Wooch linked this article (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2004/06/28/waf_wife_acceptance_factor/) on the affects of WAF. The part regarding Boston was thus:

Boston Acoustics, a speaker manufacturer, designs products around WAF. Products like "flush-mount speakers," recessed into a wall or ceiling, are targeted to "almost affluent" consumers, said David Kroll, national sales manager. Shipments to US dealers of in-wall and wall-mounted speakers more than doubled to 275,000 units in the first four months of this year, compared with the same period in 2003, according to the Consumer Electronics Association. Sales of floor speakers are dropping. "Originally you bought speakers for the sound quality," Kroll said, but "the aesthetics now play a more important role than the performance."

Sound quality has taken a back seat to aesthetics? As I said back then, so rings the death knell of another quality manufacturer.

I do like BB's incorporation of the Magnolia stores into their larger outlets. At least there you can find Martin Logan and Parasound ('course, you can get Martin Logan at Costco, too! :p)

Woochifer
10-11-2006, 03:51 PM
This move is nothing more than Circuit City terminating its decades long relationship with Harman International and picking up D&M Holdings' brands instead.

Harman provided CC with h/k, Infinity, and at one time JBL components. D&M Holdings owns Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, and Boston Acoustics. For now, the only D&M brands making their way into CC stores are Denon and Boston.

D&M Holdings also has a presence with Best Buy through its Magnolia division, and recently started moving Denon products into the Best Buy stores. With so much crossover between CC and BB/Magnolia, it would not surprise me if Harman winds up getting into BB's Magnolia stores. Aside from h/k and Infinity, Harman also owns Lexicon, Mark Levinson, and Revel, brands that are very much within Magnolia's target niche.

A couple of months ago, I noted that a lot of brands seem to be consolidating their distribution into these all-in-one conglomerates, and the major chains are picking up brands as a group. For example, Sumiko is the North American distributor for Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, Pro-ject, and Primare. Magnolia (including its locations inside of Best Buy) stocks all of those brands, and they occupy a considerable amount of space inside Magnolia's stores.

Klipsch recently purchased API, which owns Energy, Mirage, and Athena. It would not surprise me to see them further diversify by picking up an amplifier/processor manufacturer. BB carries Klipsch and Athena already, so it would not be a stretch for the other brands to move into BB/Magnolia stores.

Paradigm's also a conglomerate of sorts because they also own an electronics division (Anthem and Sonic Frontiers) and an AV furniture division (Premier). While they don't distribute to large chain stores in the U.S., most of the dealers that carry Paradigm's speakers also carry Anthem amps and Premier stands.

Same thing with B&W, which has a distribution relationship with Rotel. That would explain why most B&W dealers carry Rotel amps.

Woochifer
10-11-2006, 04:07 PM
What I hope CC would do is sell the Boston's for what they are - nice speakers. What they don't need is another Polk and Infinity speaker, as they're already covered in that department. I mean, people walk into CC every day and spend over 2 grand for a TV, so why not offer a more expensive speaker? That way, Boston can benefit from the mass-marketability offered at CC, while not feel forced to sacrifice too much on build quality. That said, we all know that the Bostons would be sold for less at CC than at a specialty shop. You said it best, bobsticks, "time will tell".

I think you're elevating Boston's brand status a bit too high. In terms of actual sound quality, they're about on par with Polk and Infinity, and occupy most of the same price points (at least with their entry and midlevel lines). The only substantive difference had been with the place of purchase because Polk and Infinity had diluted their brand by selling though national chains and mail order houses. Even so, Bostons have been sold through regional chains such as Good Guys, Tweeter, and Magnolia for years. Boston Acoustics was also losing money and getting squeezed out of those chain stores until D&M Holdings acquired the company last year.

As far as price goes, don't count on Bostons being sold for less at CC, since most of the regular prices that you see on their store shelves are nothing more than the same MSRP that you see quoted at every other store. If anything, in recent years, it's the chain stores that have been a lot more rigid with their pricing on audio components. Sure, they'll "match" a lower price, but if the stores all charge the same price, what good will matching do? Independent stores have a lot more leeway for negotiating.

natronforever
10-13-2006, 06:11 PM
I think you're elevating Boston's brand status a bit too high. In terms of actual sound quality, they're about on par with Polk and Infinity, and occupy most of the same price points (at least with their entry and midlevel lines). The only substantive difference had been with the place of purchase because Polk and Infinity had diluted their brand by selling though national chains and mail order houses.

Does this mean that CC is only going to sell offerings from Boston on par with what is already offered from Polk at that store? I mean, I know that CC doesn't sell the more high end Polk stuff (LSi series, for example), at least not in the stores I have been in. I was under the impression that CC was going to offer a higher-end speaker than those currently offered. With H/K leaving, can I assume that Infinity will be leaving as well? Maybe they just want to replace the Infinity speakers with Boston speakers of parallel quality. Actually, I'm wondering why I even care, as I won't be buying new speakers any time soon (med student - my money isn't really my money). Nor would Boston's be at the top of my buy list anyway. Still, it's interesting to hear everybody's viewpoints on the matter. Especially when you all know more of these matters than I.

PeruvianSkies
10-13-2006, 10:04 PM
I have always thought that places like BB or CC should do one really intelligent thing...

Carry 3 brands and carry 3 price points within that brand. For example: they could carry Polk, Athena, and B&W....and then carry each manufacturer's low, middle, and high end stuff. This process would eliminate the hard decisions that some people have to make because there are too many companies and usually CC or BB never carry the really good stuff, mostly the low to mid/high stuff. There needs to be something for everyone!

Most people love selection, but not necessarily when it comes to things that are nearly similar anyway. It's the same when it comes to TV's and such. I have watched people as they shop for TV's in a store and they usually have a perplexed look on their face as they compare and contrast from set to set. They walk over to one and then over to another, look at the price tag, then walk around a bit more....what are they thinking? Usually they are puzzled by how price and quality exist and how they can get the biggest and best for the smallest digits. Sometimes they are brand-specific, but right now there are tons of manufacturers that it's hard to really be loyal.