Smaller budget [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Smaller budget



Stereomaniac
10-06-2006, 08:18 AM
I am trying to find a review, opinion or advice for a pair of floor standing speakers in the sub $800 range. I have looked at Phase Technology V-10s, Jamo E 750s, Klipsch RF-52s, and Polk monitor 60s. I don't see a lot about these brands here (especially the phase tech's and jamo). The whole tweeter-horn thing on the Klipsch scares me a little. Some say they are very harsh and with a very narrow sweet spot, others say the sweet spot is not really a problem.

Whatever I get it has to be video shielded. I am replacing a pair of Phase Technology ES 745s that are twenty years old and unshielded and cause picture issues with my TV.

I will be driving them with a kyocera 461 integrated amp in a 16x12 room. I am not a huge bass fan and don't really play it loud. I just want some high quality, clear, flat speakers. Please help.

paul_pci
10-06-2006, 09:45 AM
Consider buying bookshelf speakers for the following generally true principle: at your budget point, you will be better sound with bookshelf speakers than you will get with floorstanding speakers. There are a lot of good bookshelf speakers out there at your price point: B&W, Paradigm, Boston Acoustic, PSB, Polk, etc.

basite
10-06-2006, 10:12 AM
if you really want a floorstander in your budget: consider wharfedale, their diamond 9 series sounds good (i've heard them) they also build good bookshelves.

SlumpBuster
10-06-2006, 11:42 AM
Another choice in that price range are the Def Tech BP6 and 8 at $600/pair adn $800/pair respectively. I've always liked these speakers. They are bipolar, so they will offer something a little different than the others in this price range. Plus they are an established line that has been around for almost two decades now.
http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/bipolar/bipolar.html#bp6b

nightflier
10-06-2006, 02:08 PM
Stereo,

I was not enamored with the DefTech bipolar speakers, especially for 2-channel duties. I'm sure they would be fine in a HT setup and provide ample bass, but they really sounded off when I auditioned them a while back.

What I would recommend in your price range is Infinity and Kef. Polk is OK (I've owned several pairs), especially their LS series, but these might be a bit out of your price range, unless you're willing to buy used. Are you?

2chAlex
10-07-2006, 09:23 AM
As a owner of Phase Techs your aware of the company and their history. The V-10s are the newer version of the Phase Tech 7.5s which I have. The company is still great on customer service/support, warranty. The V-10s will meet all your needs. PhaseTechs have always been know for their soundstage

Stereomaniac
10-09-2006, 05:46 AM
With bookshelf speakers would I lose the low end? I can not use a subwoofer with this setup.

Stereomaniac
10-09-2006, 05:49 AM
I thought infinity was considered a junky, low end speaker? No Kef dealer in my market. The Polk monitor series is not worth considering, only the LS?

Stereomaniac
10-09-2006, 05:53 AM
Unfortunately I live in a smaller market and don't have a huge selection on high end equipment like warfedales. I like to buy as local as possible for the service and support.

Stereomaniac
10-09-2006, 05:58 AM
Yes, I have really enjoyed my 745's and have been impressed with their service every time I call them. It is still interesting that I never see much posted about their speakers here or on any other site. I also looked at Jamo's ( a danish company). I have not really listened to a set yet but at first glance they look promising. They appear to be well made and have won awards, but almost non-existant on the boards.

GMichael
10-09-2006, 06:23 AM
I thought infinity was considered a junky, low end speaker?

Depends on your tastes. Check out the Primus 360's. They have been on sale lately. I think new models are coming out and they're pushing to get rid of their inventory. Mine sound great to me. But only your ears can be the judge for you.

Stereomaniac
10-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Stereo,

I was not enamored with the DefTech bipolar speakers, especially for 2-channel duties. I'm sure they would be fine in a HT setup and provide ample bass, but they really sounded off when I auditioned them a while back.

What I would recommend in your price range is Infinity and Kef. Polk is OK (I've owned several pairs), especially their LS series, but these might be a bit out of your price range, unless you're willing to buy used. Are you?

How about the Polk RT series? I looked at the Polk RTi8s and the looked and sounded better than the monitor series. The LS series is a little more than I wanted to spend and probably a little more speaker than I need for the space I want to fill. The Phase Tech 745's I have now never really get exercised which may not always be good for the speakers in the long run,

Rock789
10-11-2006, 08:46 AM
focal JM Lab Chorus 716S right around $800 / pair (maybe cheaper depending on the store)
I just listeded to mine on a B&K pre, anthem amp and wow!

but they are great on my denon as well...

paradigm has a nice entry level floor stander for around $500 / pair (I herd these on an integra receiver, and I liked them)

goodluck

Stereomaniac
10-19-2006, 11:06 AM
I went to listen to the Paradigms at the semi-local high end audio shop...There was a nice gal at the front who asked me what I wanted; I said I wanted to listen to some speakers. She said she would get someone. A gentleman comes out, I tell him why I am there and he tells me I have to set up a "listening appointment". I tell him I brought some CD's and wanted to see and hear what they have in the $500 to $1000 range and that I don't know what I want to audition until I know what they have. He then takes me into a HT room, tells me to sit down, turns all the lights off and plays a obvious demo CD without saying a word. After 3 minutes CD stops and lights come back on and he tells me that was a $5200 pair of Paradigms. I said very nice, but that's not what I have in mind. He then proceeds to walk me around the store pointing at several speakers, Paradigm Phantoms, Klipsch RF-52s, and some Paradigm Studio 20s. Of course he would not play any without an appointment. I ask what to I do to set up an appointment...He said they will pick out the speakers I would be interested in based on their questions, I would listen to them, and pick out which ones I want. Woah! I reply "You mean when the session is over it is implied that I will purchase one of the pairs?" He said "Yes, there should be no problem. There is no need to think about it if you know what you want." I said I want to listen to a variety of speakers and he said that the speakers all have to be in the same room at the same time to make any rational choice. I said have a nice day.:)

Guess I won't be buying Paradigms. Is this standard operating procedure at high end high-fi stores? I am still not sure if I am mad, insulted, or just confused?

GMichael
10-19-2006, 11:23 AM
They range. I have been in some shops where they treat you like you're wasting their time. But I've also been in shops where they treat me like a king, (even after I tell them that I won't be buying anything today). Are there any other places near you that may have what you want?

Stereomaniac
10-19-2006, 11:33 AM
Yes, there are a couple of other places, but not many in Oshkosh. There is a nice place down the road that specializes in B&W and Phase Technology. I also have not ruled out the Polk RTi8s. They are not a bad speaker for the money and my amp (not a $10,000 Arcam).

basite
10-19-2006, 11:41 AM
Guess I won't be buying Paradigms. Is this standard operating procedure at high end high-fi stores? I am still not sure if I am mad, insulted, or just confused?

whoa, this certainly isn't the standard operating procedure, at the local shop where i bought my denon amp (and so many other things) i almost know them by name and when i come in somebody comes to me and helps me, if i wanted to demo something, that's just a word, i can enter the rooms and demo whatever i like,
my dad for example went to a hi-fi (read high end hi-fi) shop, auditioned a couple of amps and some cd players, and when he asked to order the guy from the shop instantly gave him a 10% price cut!!!

this sunday btw,in that same shop, i'm going to hear B&W 800 speakers, he didn't even had to make an appointement...

PeruvianSkies
10-19-2006, 12:03 PM
NEVER MAKE AN APPOINTMENT!!!

This is just a 'trick' that they are pulling on people to sell them stuff that they really don't need, want, or have a choice with. They are just pulling your chain to make another stop when they can modify their stuff in order to sell you something that they want you to buy, which is usually the more pricey stuff. I would never go back to that place again! Most high-end shops are designed to where you need to have a good relationship with, which you will gain after spending time there and just conversing with them about various ideas, options, and gear.

The two places that I visit I always come with a huge bag of stuff to try out and often times I will even give the guys that work there a few perks for their time and allowing me to demo stuff for hours in their place. They are usually thankful because they are able to get something out of the deal and I am as well. Then I can refer people to them in the future and it works out for all parties involved.

I always call them up before coming though, which is not an appointment, but just to make sure that they are there and that they don't mind me coming in. I always bring a friend or two as well with me so that they have the chance to see/hear things and make new friends too!

Just a few pointers!

Woochifer
10-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Guess I won't be buying Paradigms. Is this standard operating procedure at high end high-fi stores? I am still not sure if I am mad, insulted, or just confused?

Whoa! That's definitely not the norm among the Paradigm dealers in my area. Definitely check for another dealer in your area.

The dealer is mostly right when he says that it's best for you to have all of the speakers in the same room when you do your listenings. But, the flaw in his methodology is that it's best that you have all of the speakers gathered together in your room, since the acoustical conditions at a dealer demo room will differ from what you have at home. And of course, the best speakers for you might be something outside of what that dealer carries. In actuality, the best way to audition speakers would be to borrow the speakers you're most interested in and try them out at home. When a dealer wants you to make an appointment, go ahead and make one, and let the dealer know that you're just dropping by to borrow some demo units for home audition.

The store where I bought my Paradigm set will basically setup whatever you want to listen to, ask if you need any demo discs, close the demo room door, and let you do your listenings until you're ready to swap something out or have questions. I will sometimes spend hours listening and comparing, and they've never copped an attitude with me or second guessed anything. In fact, they would encourage me to take the demo units home so that I could audition them properly in my listening room with my front end components. The home listenings confirmed what I had heard at different demo room listenings and really helped finalize my choices.

dingus
10-19-2006, 12:06 PM
you are going to get the most return on your dollar going the pre-owned route. people trade up all the time so there are plenty of perfectly good used speakers out there.

find a store that is dedicated to audio, they wont be selling anything unrelated to audio and they will have a fair selection of pre-owned speakers for sale, as they take used quality speakers as trade-in value towards the purchase of new speakers.

respectable audio stores understand that you cannot get a true evaluation of speakers without hearing them as they will be setup in your home, on your equipment. that is why they will allow you to take a used set of speakers for an in-home demo.

dont waste any more time in the chains and hi-fi boutique's that are dedicated to sales rather than to sound.

if you cannot find a respectable audio store in your area then look for private owners looking to sell. depending on your area, craigslist, local classifieds and ebay may be the best resources available to you. though you will be able to listen to the speakers in a home environment, generally an in-home demo is not an option with private sellers, but they offer the best bargains out there.

be patient, rushing into a purchase usually means dissatisfaction down the road.

Woochifer
10-19-2006, 12:14 PM
In response to your original inquiry -- I would also give bookshelf speakers a shot. Most of the sub-$1,000 floorstanders I've heard have issues with cabinet resonance and muddy imaging compared to similarly priced bookshelf speakers. The primary drawback with bookshelf speakers is the bass extension. At this price point though, bookshelf speakers will generally offer superior performance in most other facets, and since bass is not a primary consideration for you, I would expand the choices.

Another consideration on the speakers you should go with would be with the amplification. If you use a multichannel HT receiver, you should probably stick with 8 ohm speakers. If you choose to go with a low impedance (6 ohms or below) and/or a relatively inefficient speaker (~86 db/watt or below), you'll need to assess whether your amplifier/receiver can handle it, especially if you plan to eventually expand your system into a 5.1 configuration.

You won't know if Klipsch is for you until you listen to them. Their Synergy series is sold at Best Buy, so it won't be too hard to find (keep in mind that if the Synergy series is too harsh for your ears, the Reference series that's sold through specialty audio dealers sounds a lot more refined while retaining the high efficiency of the horn design).

Stereomaniac
10-19-2006, 12:20 PM
Whoa! That's definitely not the norm among the Paradigm dealers in my area. Definitely check for another dealer in your area.

The dealer is mostly right when he says that it's best for you to have all of the speakers in the same room when you do your listenings. But, the flaw in his methodology is that it's best that you have all of the speakers gathered together in your room, since the acoustical conditions at a dealer demo room will differ from what you have at home. And of course, the best speakers for you might be something outside of what that dealer carries. In actuality, the best way to audition speakers would be to borrow the speakers you're most interested in and try them out at home. When a dealer wants you to make an appointment, go ahead and make one, and let the dealer know that you're just dropping by to borrow some demo units for home audition.

The store where I bought my Paradigm set will basically setup whatever you want to listen to, ask if you need any demo discs, close the demo room door, and let you do your listenings until you're ready to swap something out or have questions. I will sometimes spend hours listening and comparing, and they've never copped an attitude with me or second guessed anything. In fact, they would encourage me to take the demo units home so that I could audition them properly in my listening room with my front end components. The home listenings confirmed what I had heard at different demo room listenings and really helped finalize my choices.

I asked about their home trial/return policy. They will take speakers back if you are not satisfied after an in-home audition, but they take a 10% restocking fee. I understand not wanting to encourage people just taking speakers home and bringing them back wily-nilly but combined with the rest of the story I will go somewhere else.

Someone once told me that A/B speaker demos are not even the best way to evaluate several sets of speakers. Using this method, he told me, you tend to nit pick and micro-analyze certain elements, i.e. that guitar solo on that song sounds better on speaker A but that cello passage on another song sounds better on speaker B, etc. The idea is to listen one set of speakers for several minutes/hours and take them as a whole on a given work and then digest what you heard.

Rock789
10-19-2006, 12:24 PM
The idea is to listen to the speakers for several minutes/hours and take them as a whole on a given work and then digest what you heard.
isn't this what you wanted to do in the 1st place and he didn't want to help you :confused5:

Stereomaniac
10-19-2006, 12:43 PM
isn't this what you wanted to do in the 1st place and he didn't want to help you :confused5:

Yes. I was just relating what someone told me about speaker evaluation. Unfortunately, as Wooch said, the best way to audition speakers is in your home, in your room, with your equipment.

Everything else is a crap shoot to some degree. I have already heard the same speakers at different stores and one place sounded terrible and the other was quite pleasant. I need the audio store that shows up at my front door with a truckload of pre-selected speakers(of any brand I choose, not just what they carry) that I can spend Sat. afternoon auditioning. I am not holding my breath.:biggrin5:

GMichael
10-19-2006, 12:56 PM
I need the audio store that shows up at my front door with a truckload of pre-selected speakers(of any brand I choose, not just what they carry) that I can spend Sat. afternoon auditioning. :

Can I have their number?

Stereomaniac
10-19-2006, 12:58 PM
In response to your original inquiry -- I would also give bookshelf speakers a shot. Most of the sub-$1,000 floorstanders I've heard have issues with cabinet resonance and muddy imaging compared to similarly priced bookshelf speakers. The primary drawback with bookshelf speakers is the bass extension. At this price point though, bookshelf speakers will generally offer superior performance in most other facets, and since bass is not a primary consideration for you, I would expand the choices.

Another consideration on the speakers you should go with would be with the amplification. If you use a multichannel HT receiver, you should probably stick with 8 ohm speakers. If you choose to go with a low impedance (6 ohms or below) and/or a relatively inefficient speaker (~86 db/watt or below), you'll need to assess whether your amplifier/receiver can handle it, especially if you plan to eventually expand your system into a 5.1 configuration.

You won't know if Klipsch is for you until you listen to them. Their Synergy series is sold at Best Buy, so it won't be too hard to find (keep in mind that if the Synergy series is too harsh for your ears, the Reference series that's sold through specialty audio dealers sounds a lot more refined while retaining the high efficiency of the horn design).

The Kyocera I am using with this set up is only 50 watts per channel and is a two channel amp. I seems to have a decent amount of power/current though. It drove my old 4 ohm Phase Tech towers fine. They were 93 dB speakers though.

I listened to the Klipsch reference series 52's. At first I liked them but after about 20 minutes of listening I started to experience the famous Klipsch fatigue people talk about in the high end. The Polk RTi's seemed a lot more tolerable after twenty minutes.

I haven't heard a lot of cabinet resonance, but I don't listen to loud music or my ears are not that good. The Paradigm Studio 20's did LOOK nice, too bad I could not hear them. A lot of the bookshelf speakers are only rated at 45 Hz and above. What does that really mean in terms of what I won't hear in movies and music. In other words, what kind of stuff is down around 35 and 40Hz. As I said before I am not a big bass/sub junky, but I do want some low end.

sethmckiness
10-19-2006, 04:56 PM
1.) The delaer I work for treats every customer the same... we do not do appointments... sometimes people ahve tow wait a bit for help if we are busy but we do the best we can to work with people and try to set them up with the best product for their needs, not our margin.

-I would not shop at a store where I have to make an appointment or show my willingness to spend money to get a demo. Travis Audio/Video refused to demo a cd player for me. thankfully, it saved me from buying a piece of Sony ES gear.

2.) the real issue... speakers. I would recomment Paradigm Monitor 5s (big bookshelf, uses a ~20-22" stand) or monitors 7s they are 800$ so stretch you budget a bit. I personnaly prefer the 5s due to there great midrange performance. But for a no sub setup I main lean towards the 7s especially if classical music is to played.

nightflier
10-23-2006, 01:07 PM
Stereomaniac,

The Polk RT8's are a pretty big speaker. I was referring to the older Polk stuff that you can get used in your price range. I have owned LSi7's, a surround setup with RT600i's as fronts, the new Monitor series, and a few bookshelves I don't remember the model numbers from. The one thing I do know about the new Rt line is that they are very big and require a lot of power to drive them adequately.

At the same price point, Paradigm makes a much better speaker, in my opinion, although I'm not too familiar with them. What I would recommend, however, is that you consider buying used. You would be able to get speakers well beyond your current budget. Also, there are several mail-order online places that will allow you to return speakers if you don't like them. I've had very good quality and service from Axiom Audio. You might want to check them out.

Stereomaniac
10-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Stereomaniac,

The Polk RT8's are a pretty big speaker. I was referring to the older Polk stuff that you can get used in your price range. I have owned LSi7's, a surround setup with RT600i's as fronts, the new Monitor series, and a few bookshelves I don't remember the model numbers from. The one thing I do know about the new Rt line is that they are very big and require a lot of power to drive them adequately.

At the same price point, Paradigm makes a much better speaker, in my opinion, although I'm not too familiar with them. What I would recommend, however, is that you consider buying used. You would be able to get speakers well beyond your current budget. Also, there are several mail-order online places that will allow you to return speakers if you don't like them. I've had very good quality and service from Axiom Audio. You might want to check them out.

The problem with Paradigm is that the only dealer for a 100 miles is the one previously mentioned with their snobby, pushy attitude. I suppose I could go mail order, but I do try to buy local for service and support and extras they through my way.

Are you sure you are talking about the right Polks? The RTi8 is rated at 20-250 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 90db sensitivity. I was previously driving Phase Technology 845s which were a 4 ohm, 93 db speaker with no problems. I don't think they should be too hard to drive.

I listen to a few higher end bookshelves and really missed the low end and the fullness of the sound. Mids were great though. Phase Technology would be my other hope locally. I have to give the V-10s another listen.

nightflier
10-24-2006, 01:16 PM
Are you sure you are talking about the right Polks? The RTi8 is rated at 20-250 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 90db sensitivity. I was previously driving Phase Technology 845s which were a 4 ohm, 93 db speaker with no problems. I don't think they should be too hard to drive.

Yup. On paper they seem pretty easy to drive, but last year I got a chance to hook up different amps with the sales reps at Tweeter (local mid-fi shop). The RTi8's sounded noticeably better driven by a dedicated 200W B&K amp, than with any of the multi-channel receivers which put out someowhere between 80-120W. Maybe the power rating is not so much the determining factor as the quality of the amp, but is was quite noticeable.

I've also read online that a common complaint about these speakers not measuring up, is a result of poor amplification. Those Polks will want all 250W they are rated for and sound much fuller and powerful with a good solid amp.

Stereomaniac
10-25-2006, 04:40 PM
I will have to hear the Polks on a smaller wattage amp and see if they suffer. I am only driving 50w/channel. I listen to the Phase Tech V-10s again today and was impressed. They are $200 more than the Polks and probably not an audiophile speaker, but they sounded among the best I have heard below $1000 and they are video shielded which is a must given my CRT and its position.

I listened to the Jamo D450 and E680 and thought they were nice. Not shielded though and the D450 at $1600 MSRP was over-priced even with a dealer "discount". In the $1600 range a world of possibilities open up although I am not sure I can drive them adequately with 50w/channel.:o

nightflier
11-03-2006, 11:32 AM
Do any of the dealers in your area have Quad speakers? They are very affordable, have superb workmanship, and offer very impressive performance. The 21L & 22L are great floor-standers. They often go on sale second hand for well under $1K.

bubbagump
11-03-2006, 12:35 PM
a raging bargain at around 600.00 usd. I've seen it advertised in the low 400's from online vendors I'm not familiar with. Liquid mids and highs and the best imaging I've experienced at this price point.

nightflier
11-03-2006, 02:57 PM
I don't know the KEF's that well but at the $600 price, that seems like a good value. I am surprised, however, that they won't go lower than 38Hz. Given their size and the configuration, It's almost as if the speaker was designed strictly as a HT main (requiring a sub to fill out the bass).

bubbagump
11-04-2006, 07:52 AM
I don't know the KEF's that well but at the $600 price, that seems like a good value. I am surprised, however, that they won't go lower than 38Hz. Given their size and the configuration, It's almost as if the speaker was designed strictly as a HT main (requiring a sub to fill out the bass).

The Brits were never the bass heads we yanks are. I can't speak to the design goal of the IQ9 but a sub certainly helps. The IQ9's strength is in a coherent midrange and treble presentation. This may have something to do with the coaxial design. The result is a very, very smooth sounding speaker with imaging that is second to none. KEF's reference line looks amazing but the jump in price from the Q series to the Reference series is dramatic. I'd guess that the Q series is manufactured in China or thereabouts. Check them out at a dealer in your area or buy them online from a source with a good return policy.

Tarheel_
11-06-2006, 11:26 AM
heck, i'll throw an older model out there....the PSB Image 5T....it was recently replaced by a newer line (T55). However, the 5T was only around $600 and is a full range speaker. Great all around, clear highs, nice mids and some decent bass.
I was very impressed when i demoed the whole Image line and it did well against some other brands....I didn't buy them, but remember how well they sounded against the more expensive models.

Maybe check for a local PSB dealer in your area....worth a shot.

nightflier
11-06-2006, 01:11 PM
The Brits were never the bass heads we yanks are.

Well the Quads are also british right? The 22L goes down to 30Hz. That's pretty good for a bargain-priced speakers in my book. Only the Vandersteen 2's will do that, but according to the online posts, at the expense of the mid-range & trebble. Now I know they are now Chinese owned with Wharfedale and a few other companies, but they still get excellent reviews.

A friend of mine just purchased a pair of 22Ls. We're going to do a showdown with my Nightingales (which only go down to 39Hz) so am very curious to see & hear what these speakers can do. He bought them w/o having heard them, so this should be interesting. He likes bright sounding gear and my speakers are right up his alley. The Quads better be able to measure up.