Apogee Acoustics Synergy 1.5

[Florian]

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4237/1001553hi5.jpg



Incl. the front cover of Stereophile

http://www.stereophile.com/images/newshifishow1.jpg

[bobsticks]

Hey Flo,

Good to have you around these parts. These look magnificent. I appreciate the simplicity and the symmetry of this system. Have you heard any offerings from the "new rejuvinated"
Apogee?

Cheers

[kexodusc]

Nice shot...Could be the pictures, but that room looks like an acoustic nightmare...this just a temp setup room or is that someone's future listening chambers???

[Florian]

They where on the frontpage of Stereophile :23:

These where at the London HIFI show. They cost around 25K a pair and are 330lbs a side and have a efficency of 95db per watt and 3ohm impedance. My friends who attented and 30 people on Stereophile voted them best sound at the show. The room was less then ideal, but then again most rooms are for my fav. giants.

-Flo

[JohnMichael]

Ya Flo they look good. I better start saving.

[topspeed]

330lbs! :yikes:

Either that guy standing next to them is a giant or the frame is made out of granite! I can understand those monoliths you listen to being that heavy, but they are 8' tall or so.

[Dusty Chalk]

Nice shot...Could be the pictures, but that room looks like an acoustic nightmare...this just a temp setup room or is that someone's future listening chambers???Mebbe he couldn't afford anything else besides the speakers.

I know I used to live in a hovel so I could afford nice stuff.

[JoeE SP9]

According to the Stereophile show report those are priced at ~$22,000. I think that is a bit high. The re-introduction of the line may have an effect on the market for used ones. I hope that it means lower prices for the old ones. Flo has mentioned before that the new owner sells parts for older Apogees. It might be a good time to start looking at older used Apogees.:ihih:

[Florian]

:)

22K is a very fair price for these speakers. I consider them a bargain! The frame is made out of stone, uses the most powerfull rare earth magnets. CNC cut ribbons, can be fully actively driven or passively. Its an exclusive product for an exclusive crowd. The Apogee Scintilla was 27K when introduced in Germany. The DIVA was 36K and my GRANDS over 123K if you wanted one. How was 7500$ back in 83 in the US compared to now?

The priced of used Apogees will rise because you can restore them! :-) I sold my DIVA for 12500EUR. Like i always said, these are not normal and one should not expect to find one cheap and throw them in that range. The new Synergy will easily hang with 60K Wilsons, and up! This is the planar playing field waaay after the Maggie field. So, give them a whirl if you can ;-)

Cheers

Flo

PS: Joe, grab an Apogee as soon as you can, cause they aint gonna get cheaper :cornut:

[basite]

:)

22K is a very fair price for these speakers. I consider them a bargain! The frame is made out of stone, uses the most powerfull rare earth magnets. CNC cut ribbons, can be fully actively driven or passively. Its an exclusive product for an exclusive crowd. The Apogee Scintilla was 27K when introduced in Germany. The DIVA was 36K and my GRANDS over 123K if you wanted one. How was 7500$ back in 83 in the US compared to now?

The priced of used Apogees will rise because you can restore them! :-) I sold my DIVA for 12500EUR. Like i always said, these are not normal and one should not expect to find one cheap and throw them in that range. The new Synergy will easily hang with 60K Wilsons, and up! This is the planar playing field waaay after the Maggie field. So, give them a whirl if you can ;-)

Cheers

Flo

PS: Joe, grab an Apogee as soon as you can, cause they aint gonna get cheaper :cornut:

why do they have to be so expensive?? :cryin:
Flo, you must be one of the 25 luckiest man on the world having the grands,

i heard martin logan's at the hi-fi show in brussels, didn't knew which model, didn't knew the price (if i see those prices, i actually dont wanna know) and they sounded really really good too, real clear, but then again really different compared to boxed speakers.

if only i had room, and money (alot of money)

greetz,
basite.

[JoeE SP9]

Flo;
I've got buyers for both pairs of Acoustats coming over this weekend!:ihih:

[Dusty Chalk]

22K is a very fair price for these speakers. I consider them a bargain!Yes, but c'mon, let's admit it: you're insane. These aren't exactly going to compete for the Martin Logan/Magnepan/Quad/Final crowd, are they?

[E-Stat]

Flo;
I've got buyers for both pairs of Acoustats coming over this weekend!:ihih:
As a student of electrostats, you really need to listen to a pair of A-1/M-1/U-1s. ;)

rw

[Florian]

:) :) :) To Dusty: Yes, they are insane! But like i said many times, these where never targeted for the normal. My 85K speaker was limited to 25 pairs and made for millioners. Of course they are not normal, but why should they? :confused5: :ciappa:

To E-Stat: I love E-Stat's too, but would not consider them to be better or worse then true ribbon speakers. I would gladly live with both. But just like regular planars, they need huge surface area to make any bass and dynamic headroom. A E-Stat in the size of the Apogee Duetta, Scintilla or new Synergy wont have the resolution, bass and dynamics. Once you go higher, the gap closes. But please dont missunderstand, i sit both technologys on the same level but i would recommend a Apogee over the Acoustat for Joe.

Then again, joe knows Apogees and heard the GRAND. Wee.....:) :)

[E-Stat]

But just like regular planars, they need huge surface area to make any bass and dynamic headroom. A E-Stat in the size of the Apogee Duetta, Scintilla or new Synergy wont have the resolution, bass and dynamics.
Output with a similarly smaller array, no. Resolution yes. There is a reason that ALL high end microphones are condenser (electrostatic).


Once you go higher, the gap closes.
Indeed. It's all about radiating area. The U-1s have significantly more than the Synergy, not to mention the Majestics which are simply huge.

rw

[Florian]

Output with a similarly smaller array, no. Resolution yes. There is a reason that ALL high end microphones are condenser (electrostatic).

Not to mention the RoyaLabs Ribbon microphones ;-) Either way, i have yet to hear a E-Stat take on a Apogee ribbon in inner resolution :) I love E-Stats too, but i woudnt dare put one above the other.



Indeed. It's all about radiating area. The U-1s have significantly more than the Synergy, not to mention the Majestics which are simply huge.

rw

Yes, but you should compare the U1 to the Definitive or Fullrange. :cornut:

[GMichael]

Unfortunately for me, unless I hit Lotto, I will only be able to drool over such speakers. Even the Magnepans are just a dream at this point. But at least there's a chance, so I don't mind dreaming.

Edit: Nice pics though. Very handsom speakers.

[E-Stat]

Not to mention the RoyaLabs Ribbon microphones ;-)
Never heard of them. A google search finds nothing. The ones I see most often used, Neumann and Shoeps, are exclusively condenser.


Either way, i have yet to hear a E-Stat take on a Apogee ribbon in inner resolution :)
Well, the obvious question is have you heard one of the big Sound Labs?

Their other virtue is full range operation. JoeE and I have been spoiled by decades of absolute coherency. A piano is reproduced by a single driver, not two or three different ones.

rw

[Florian]

I considered Soundlabs, Dali, Acoustats and of course the Apogee Fullrange. The coherency problem you speak off does not exist with Apogees. Your Soundlab is not one single panel either, but its many combined with a none-curved panel. The coherency comes from the same drivers. Apogee drivers are all the same material, same weight, same magnetic field. The problem that Magnepans have with integration are none-existant with Apogees.

I decided against fullrange E-Stats because for one i am a Apogee freak. They dont have the acoustical power of an Apogee and have less innner resolution. The bending front and bundled reflection is troublesome and not to my liking if i have the choice. Price wise this was not a problem since the U1's are in the range of possibility.

Joe knows of Soundlab also, and there is a reason why he moves this way :-)

[E-Stat]

The coherency problem you speak off does not exist with Apogees.
In relative terms, sure it does. There are dissimilar panels using dissimilar raditating patterns each reproducing but a part of the frequency range. You cannot get around that with any multi-way speaker.


Your Soundlab is not one single panel either, but its many combined with a none-curved panel.
Evidently, you are not aware of the Sound Lab design. While Acoustats, Janszens, and other electrostats use multiple panels, the SL design is a single large diaphragm. There is a multi-faceted framework that divides the single diaphragm into multiple flat surfaces arrayed in an arc with different sized openings. It remains, however, a single driver.


Joe knows of Soundlab also, and there is a reason why he moves this way :-)
If memory serves, he like you has never heard one though.

rw

[Florian]

The Apogee design is a multiway, true and not one driver. But you want hear the different panels, its not possible in a normal listening enviroment that does the speaker justice. I heard the Soundlab M1 and A1 but not the U1. The problem is for me in the dynamic power and bass responce as well as the resolution. It simply did not beat the Apogee. Then again, my current system is more then a reference. If i had to decide between Diva, Fullrange and U1 it would be a tougher choice.

However, let Joe decide what he wants and can buy. He loves Apogees and Acoustats but the smaller E-Stats dont have the bass and the big ones wont touch the bass region of the Synergy or the big ones and a dynamic subbass system is very difficutlt to integrate unless you go to length like some do.

--Flo

[E-Stat]

However, let Joe decide what he wants and can buy. He loves Apogees and Acoustats but the smaller E-Stats dont have the bass and the big ones wont touch the bass region of the Synergy or the big ones and a dynamic subbass system is very difficutlt to integrate unless you go to length like some do.
Now we agree. As for me, I find response down to 24 hz in the U-1s to be sufficient. Coupling direct radiator dynamic subs with bipolar planars makes the coherency issue even more problematic.

SL's answer for bass freaks is adding a pair of UB-1s. They are electrostatic subs using the same steel frame, but with thicker diaphragms and greater stator spacing for more excursion. They have the same 82" height, but are a touch wider. They are the units in the center of the pic.

rw

[Florian]

I know the UB's ;-)

But there we have the problems with the room size and acoustics, time differential and phasing issues. Nothing is perfect, but for me a system needs to do 20Hz flat and below with pure raw power. The Grand moves a huge amount of air just for 250 to 70 where all the acoustical power is. A fascinating system :-) Not to mention the fully activated system and no passive components.

-Flo

[E-Stat]

But there we have the problems with the room size...
All large systems require space for optimum performance, especially bipolars. I suspect the Grands were likewise intended for a large space.


A fascinating system :-) Not to mention the fully activated system and no passive components.
No doubt. HP's big Nolas are likewise very entertaining since they are flat to about 16 hz with their eight 12" drivers driven by a separate amplifier.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

You can also use those to change clothes behind so no one can see your naked self.

[Mike Anderson]

To Dusty: Yes, they are insane!

No no. He said YOU'RE insane.

:lol:

[JoeE SP9]

As a student of electrostats, you really need to listen to a pair of A-1/M-1/U-1s. ;)

rw

My room just isn't large enough for the ones that have enough bass. Oh, the pity!
PS: I do have a lead on a pair of Acoustat Model 6's. That's 6 panels per side. Three wide and two high (7'10"x28"x3"). Kind of like 2+2's on steroids! They will just fit my room and have enough area to allow me to do away with my subs!:sad:
PPS: They are affordable!!!!:smilewinkgrin: :devil: :thumbsup: :yikes:

[Florian]

My friend, congratulations :13:

Now that saves some money for you, but if you have some cash laying around give the Synergys a try. You know what i mean :wink5:
Easy to drive 2.5ohms and 95db efficency.....mmmh 110db plus with 20Hz flat...tasty

[E-Stat]

PS: I do have a lead on a pair of Acoustat Model 6's. That's 6 panels per side. ...They will just fit my room and have enough area to allow me to do away with my subs!:sad:
PPS: They are affordable!!!!:smilewinkgrin: :devil: :thumbsup: :yikes:
I have heard the newer Spectra 66 which is also a six panel model. Let me preface my current opinion. You will not find a greater enthusiast than me for Acoustats. I lived happily with four different pairs for over twenty five years. I met Bob Rieman and Jim Strickland when they first released the model X. They are excellent speakers. I tweaked mine a bit by rewiring them and bypassing the fuses. They are not, however, in the same league as the Sound Labs. Acoustats have a decided tonal personality and are a challenge to set up to minimize beaming. The nature of the SL design is for a much greater dispersion. The toroidal transformers and generally speaking, better parts, also makes for a higher resolution speaker. Not to mention it is a supportable product. One of the panels in my 2+2 arced and I could never fix it, despite cleaning and "popping" them.

As for cost, I bought mine used just having been refurbed and shipped from the factory with the latest panels and upgraded "backplates". There are some like that available now for a reduced price.

Scroll down the page a bit (http://soundlab-speakers.com/news.htm)

You really need to hear them both for yourself. Upon hearing her favorite records, my wife commented "they are not there". Sonically, they simply disappear.

Good luck in your hunting. There are lots of good choices around.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

What is the ideal room size if they are 6 panels per side?

[JoeE SP9]

What is the ideal room size if they are 6 panels per side?

I don't know what "ideal" is. My room is approximately 14'x32'x9'. I live in a Phila. row home. I knocked down the wall between my living and dining room to make one large listening room. The model 6's and the Spectra 66/6600's are 28" wide and approx. 94" tall. They were designed to be used with 8' ceilings.
PS: I'm currently a bachelor and have no significant other to be concerned about.:ihih:

[JoeE SP9]

My friend, congratulations :13:

Now that saves some money for you, but if you have some cash laying around give the Synergys a try. You know what i mean :wink5:
Easy to drive 2.5ohms and 95db efficency.....mmmh 110db plus with 20Hz flat...tasty

The idea sounds terrific Flo. I'm just not ready to fork out $20K+. You see, I've been looking at this Cayman. You know what I mean.:ihih: