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nightflier
09-20-2006, 03:46 PM
I have had a few headphones over the years, until I finally settled on the Grado SR325i. I am using a grado RA-1 amp (battery powered) and while the sound is the best of the sub-$400 lot, the problem is that they are a pain (literally) to wear for anything more than a couple of LP's. So I've decided to move on. I'm looking for headphones that are light on the ears (especially for those of us who wear glasses), have a lively sound (not too dark), and excellent bass response. I picked the Grados initially because they had very good 18-24KHz. range and a lively presence. My budget is about $500, but I am willing to buy used as well.

I've been considering the Beyerdynamic DT880s and the AKG K701s, but I'm open to other models. What I need to know, since there is no one place where I can try these on, is if these are comfortable for long listening sessions.

Mr Peabody
09-20-2006, 06:55 PM
Have you tried the Sennheiser HD600 or 650? They fit all the way over your ear and very comfortable. I love the sound of the Senn's and thought they killed the Grado but those who love Grado feel the opposite. The HD600's I have do very good bass but it's a tight more precise bass where I thought the Grado was extremely exaggerated in the low end. I also find the HD600's far exceeded Grado in air and size of sound stage perception. I drive my HD600's with the Musical Fidelity X-can. I also have a pair of HD580's for the badroom I drive with an Onkyo receiver and I find the Sennheiser characteristics present here as well, just not as much.

Unfortunately not many places locally carry high end cans. So my only experience has been with AKG, Senn & Grado.

Dusty Chalk
09-20-2006, 08:36 PM
I like velour the best for long-term listening (Beyer, Senn). I spend hours a day with a pair of Beyers on my head. I'd go with the DT880s -- that'd be a very good choice in the <US$500 camp. In fact, that'd be my choice in the <US$500 camp anyway, comfort or otherwise.

nightflier
09-21-2006, 09:26 AM
Mr. Peabody,

I auditioned the Senns, and I was a huge fan for years before I heard the Grados. True the sound is different, but most of my gear is a bit on the warm side and so the Senns went too far. The Grados did a great job evening things out for me and for some reason I like warm speakers, but brighter phones. Anyhow, the soundstage with the Grados is a bit smaller, I agree, but it makes me feel like I am closer to the stage. It's more immediate, I guess. With large orchestral works it's like I'm sitting front-row center of the stage with the players, perhaps not as realistic, but definitely awe-inspiring - sort of like a good SACD & speakers setup works. Now I've read that the AKGs are a little leaner on the bass than the Senns, but how did you compare the mids & highs on both these phones?

By the way, you are right that they are comfortable, but the large over-the-ear size pushes my glasses against my temples which gets bothersome on long listening sessions. Not that the Grados are an improvement in that department, but at the time I was so focussed on just the sound that I completely forgot about the comfort factor.

Dusty,

I've never heard the Beyerdynamics, but I have read an awful lot of positive reviews. I have also heard other AKGs, although not the 701. For some reason I can't find any online sources comparing these phones. While they differ in price quite a bit, they do seem to be their top phones in the still sensibly priced range. Presuming that they are equally comfortable, how would you compare the sound on these?

Mr Peabody
09-21-2006, 06:30 PM
The highest in the AKG line I've heard has been the K-240. So I wouldn't want to comment on some costing in the hundreds. I see AKG on TV sometimes in studio shots. It looked like that's what Howard Stern used to wear. The K-240's lean more toward the Grado sound with a flatter response in my opinion.

www.amusicdirect.com will allow a 30 day trial/return and they carry several brands, I know AKG, Grado, Senn & Stax. I'm not sure about Beyer, you'd have to take a look.

Peter, how would you describe the Beyer sound? Spearitsound.com which carries many high end audio brands carry Beyer and I've often wondered what they are like. If you email Jack there, NF, he could tell you about the AKG, they carry those as well. Their return policy is very long though.

NF, for your glasses have you tried to slide something tubular over the ear pieces while listening to cans? It would seem the tube would hold the pressure off your glasses frame.

Dusty Chalk
09-21-2006, 07:59 PM
You know how Grados are forward, and Senns are laid back? Alright, those were easy to characterize.

Beyers and AKGs and Audio Technicas are a little harder to characterize, because they're in between. They're all pretty straightforward -- not too forward, not too laid back.

The Beyers are probably a little closer to the Senns than the Grados, but I wouldn't call them "laid back". They're just sort of "there". They have this really pleasing straightforward balanced tonal spread with nice extension (I'm specifically talking about the DT880's here). That's what I like about both them and AKGs (like the K240...M? I think...maybe the S...I forget...).

I usually listen to the DT770's, which are even more laid back than the DT880's, and not as neutrally balanced in the frequency spectrum -- they are definitely basshead headphones -- but they also go lower than most any other headphone. Although I've been listening to my DT831 lately, and that's pretty close to the DT880 (sort of a poor man's DT880), IIRC.

As to K701 vs. DT880 -- hard to say, I currently own neither. I had a chance to A/B the two (actually A/B/C those two and a pair of rewired HD650's, all balanced) on a really high end amp, and they ended up sounding very similar, tonal-balance wise. The difference was in their ... I'm not sure, it almost sounded like phase issues -- the DT880 just cleaned up the other two in this area. It just had a cleanliness to the sound to it that the other two didn't even come close to. (The amp in question was Headroom's Max Balanced with the new diamond buffers -- the best solid-state headphone amp I've heard, and one of the best headphone amps I've heard of any topology. To use bartender's terms: "top shelf".) There was also a slight "weight" that was missing in the AKG, though I still like it more than most of my friends do...it was a little "drier" than the Beyer (but not HP1000 dry, which is dry like a martini dry).

Let's put it this way -- I'm in no rush to get the AKG K701 -- I will probably get one some day, but the DT880 is a little more imminent.

Gee, sure typed a lot, hope I said something worthwhile in all of there. Feel free to ask more questions to drive my answers in a specific direction...

nightflier
09-22-2006, 12:48 PM
Dusty,

- How do the Beyerdynamics compare to the Grado SR325i (since they are in the same price range)?

- How would you characterize the comfort of the Beyerdynamics? What about for those of us who wear glasses?

Dusty Chalk
09-22-2006, 01:04 PM
- How do the Beyerdynamics compare to the Grado SR325i (since they are in the same price range)?I don't know (I'm not a big Grado fan).
- How would you characterize the comfort of the Beyerdynamics? What about for those of us who wear glasses?Yeah, I forgot about glasses (I haven't started wearing mine until a year or two ago [meaning: I forget to think about wearing glasses when I talk about headphone comfort]). Beyers go around the ears, so without glasses, they don't get much more comfortable than that. They press just the right amount on the head -- enough to keep them on the head and properly sealed, but not enough to feel pressure.

With glasses, well I am nearsighted, so I don't usually have to deal with this either, but for your sake, I'm wearing glasses right now. It's not too bad. I have extremely thin glasses, but if they were any thicker, I think they would push against each other (the pad inward on the glasses, and the glasses outward on the pad), but really, they're not too bad.

I suspect with glasses the Grados might be a better way to go, though, as it won't affect the seal at all. There might be a little bit of pinching type pressure (glasses/ear/grado), but short of in-ear monitors, I don't see how you're going to get around that.

nightflier
09-25-2006, 11:42 AM
Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....

Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.

Dusty Chalk
09-25-2006, 03:34 PM
Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....I do believe that, short of the Orpheus or the R10, that would be a new record for most expensive headphones ever.
Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.Some forms of hearing loss are treatable. I believe if you were a former tank driver, you're screwed, but if it's anything else (non loud noises-caused hearing loss), see your doctor for a more informed decision.

Fergymunster
09-26-2006, 11:04 AM
Dusty, believe or not, I'm actually considering Lasek because of this. Of course, that would make for a very expensive headphone experience....

Well, there would be other benefits too, I suppose. I wonder if they have a simple 30 min. outpatient surgery for restoring 16KHz & up hearing, too.
Hi Nightflier,you can get the Senn HD 650 at J&R music world for $299.I wear glasses also and it's not a problem even with extended periods of use.

nightflier
09-26-2006, 05:10 PM
Fergy,

That price is not listed on the J&R website, but if that is correct, that puts it right at the same price point as the Beyerdynamic DT880, the Ultrasone PROline650 and the AKG K601 (and the Grado SR325i that I am replacing).

Of these four which one is the best buy?

Fergymunster
09-27-2006, 08:44 AM
Fergy,

That price is not listed on the J&R website, but if that is correct, that puts it right at the same price point as the Beyerdynamic DT880, the Ultrasone PROline650 and the AKG K601 (and the Grado SR325i that I am replacing).

Of these four which one is the best buy?
My choice would be the Senn HD 650.Call them directly and tell them.I got mine from them about 6 months ago for that price.

Fergymunster
09-27-2006, 08:53 AM
My choice would be the Senn HD 650.Call them directly and tell them.I got mine from them about 6 months ago for that price.
Me again,I just checked their web site.Select e-mail me better price and it will say $299.99.Also their out of stock at the moment.

nightflier
09-28-2006, 03:53 PM
Any one else have any recommendations between these?

- Beyerdynamic DT880,
- Ultrasone PROline650
- AKG K601
- Sennheiser HD650

They are all in the under $300 range and are more comfortable than the Grado SR321i which they will be replacing.

nightflier
09-29-2006, 04:19 PM
Anyone?

Fergymunster
09-30-2006, 10:01 AM
Anyone?
This is the ghost of fergymunster calling,Get the Sennheiser.

Dusty Chalk
10-01-2006, 12:31 PM
I should switch my moniker back to Studly Kach and say, "Go for the Beyer!", but you'd just know it was me again.

Anyway, to reiterate my "vote" -- go for the Beyer.

nightflier
10-02-2006, 02:07 PM
Well it looks like there are several used phones available online. I think I can get both the Beyers and the Senns for under $200 used. Should be interesting. I can't wait.

P.S. Is Sennheiser about to release an upgrade to the HD650? Everyone seems to be blowing these out at under $300 (new). Considering what they were when they were newly released, it looks like there's something brewing.

One more thing: the Grado headphone amp won't cut it with these headphones. Any recommendations in the $200-ish price range, used; or is that just too low for a decent amp?

Dusty Chalk
10-02-2006, 02:24 PM
You used to be able to get a Xiang Sheng for under US$200 on eBay, but the one seller I'm familiar with seems to have stopped selling. I would start by looking at that. It's more than decent, it's delicious.

The Radii/Moretto HAP-03 was also pretty popular for around that price point.

Yes, I've heard rumours that Senn is about to come out with HD-700, but don't quote me on that.

Mr Peabody
10-02-2006, 02:30 PM
The HD650's seem like they haven't been out that long to already have an upgrade. I still see HD600's in the pipeline, is that still a current model? I don't think that's a good move for marketing if they did come out with a new model already, it's also not good that there are blow out prices every where on the internet. That's the kind of thing that keeps them out of local stores. But some of these blow out prices on electronics are "gray market" and factories won't honor the warranty.

Dusty Chalk
10-02-2006, 03:38 PM
Nope, HD600 might still be in stock, but it's discontinued as far as Sennheiser is concerned.

It's nothing to be concerned about -- I think it's more that they're cashing in on upgradeitis. The differences aren't significant, they're more along the lines of diminishing returns.

Fergymunster
10-04-2006, 07:38 AM
Well it looks like there are several used phones available online. I think I can get both the Beyers and the Senns for under $200 used. Should be interesting. I can't wait.

P.S. Is Sennheiser about to release an upgrade to the HD650? Everyone seems to be blowing these out at under $300 (new). Considering what they were when they were newly released, it looks like there's something brewing.

One more thing: the Grado headphone amp won't cut it with these headphones. Any recommendations in the $200-ish price range, used; or is that just too low for a decent amp?
It's funny Nightflier,I thought the same thing about the Senn 650 and that was 7 months ago and they still havn't released a newer version.It might be the new AKG-701 but not sure

nightflier
10-04-2006, 02:43 PM
OK, on tap I have:

- Beyerdynamic DT880 for around $200 online
- AKG K701's for around $350 online
- Ultrasone HFI-700/2200 for around $250/300 online
- Sennheiser HD650 for around $300 online

W/o having heard any of these (except some vague memories of the Senns), here's what I'm thinking:

- The Beyers are the best price, bar none, but with that I'd be giving up some bass, which is a critical issue for me.

- The AKG's are the highest rated by everyone, but they are also the most expensive. Typically AKG is not known for deep bass and a full sound, so I have some reservations there too.

- The Ultrasone name is new to me. Lots of people have recommended them to me, but this usually comes from the pro audio crowd. Also, in the bass department, some of their phones like the PROline 750 is unusually lean, whereas the 650 isn't. And what's the dif between their HFI & Proline models, really? Seems a little fishy to me. Price is very competitive, though.

- Though heavily discounted, the Senns are still a bit steep at $300, when the Beyers are $100 less. The other thing that keeps sticking in my mind is that the Senns sound more muddy and less detailed. They have the bass down, but the mids & highs are not up to snuff. Also, the fact that this was a common complaint on the HD600's before them and they did not correct this on the latest model is a bit disconcerting. Not to mention the upgradeitis.

In the end, it's a lot like speakers - each person has a sound that they prefer. I'm going to buy just two of these four and then return/resell the one I like least. With the Grados, that's three headphones to test, which is a lot of work. I now need to decide on which two I'm going to buy.

Dusty Chalk
10-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Actually, the DT880s aren't that bad in the bass. I'm a basshead, and I am happy with them*. They're not DT770s, but then again, what are (besides DT770s)?

*I don't own them, but they're on my list of headphones to get.

nightflier
10-06-2006, 01:08 PM
Dusty,

Are you saying that the DT770s are better for bass?

I was just about to buy the DT880s, when I read your post.

Dusty Chalk
10-06-2006, 02:21 PM
Yeah, if you want bass, then get the DT770's. There's more and it goes deeper.

But it's not as well balanced in the mids and highs. The DT880 is a better headphone overall.

I would recommend you get one or the other from a place that will take a return (like perhaps Headroom) -- then get both and return the one you like less.

I'd also recommend trying to find the more recent version of the headphone, which is slightly better (especially the DT880 -- I haven't heard the more recent version of the DT770).

nightflier
10-10-2006, 04:07 PM
Dusty,

Apparently there is an '06 model of the DT880 (sold for $199 to as high as $359), which has deeper bass. How can I tell which one's which? Is there a different model/version # I should look for?

Dusty Chalk
10-10-2006, 05:56 PM
Apparently there is an '06 model of the DT880 (sold for $199 to as high as $359), which has deeper bass. How can I tell which one's which? Is there a different model/version # I should look for?Yeah, that's what I meant by the more recent version.

I don't know. It is my understanding that they look slightly different, but unless I had both in front of me, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell. I'd make sure that whomever you bought it from specified. Or that you trusted them enough that if you asked and they told you, that you'd believe them.

I'm waiting until I got a couple hundred saved up, then I'm going to buy an all-black one directly from the Beyer site (the one with the custom colours -- "Manufactory" or something like that) -- I know they have the new ones.

I would suspect that budget places like OneCall and Buy.com will be selling the remainders of the older model.

BTW, the older model was pretty good, too. But definitely make sure you get the newer one, there's something special about that one -- it's definitely more refined.

nightflier
10-16-2006, 12:09 PM
OK, here's what I have on order:

- AKG K701 ($335 ProAudio Store)
- Ultrasone HFI-2200 ULE ($200 eBay)

I'm going to try and borrow a pair of Sennheiser HD650's from a friend. Dusty, I know you highly recommended the Beyerdynamics, but there were several things I did not like such as the non-removable coiled cord and the fact that I can't get an amp that will drive them adequately at a decent price. Even the techs at Headroom said that their Microamp would not be enough. I already have the Grado amp and I think it should be adequate to compare these two phones (although I know the Senns will have trouble with it, but those won't cost me anything to hear them, at least).

Dusty Chalk
10-16-2006, 03:27 PM
Another way to hear headphones is to lurk on Head-Fi, and wait for a meet in your area, then invite yourself to the meet.

nightflier
10-17-2006, 09:01 AM
Another way to hear headphones is to lurk on Head-Fi, and wait for a meet in your area, then invite yourself to the meet.

Can you elaborate?

nightflier
11-03-2006, 04:32 PM
Well, the Ultrasones still have not arrived. This is what I get for buying from a questionable source. The K701, however are incredible. A little weak on the bass, but that may be my Grado amp and the fact that they are not burned in yet (they want 200 hours, who's got that kind of time? ...not to mention the fact that I have to leave my stereo on that long).

For the amp, a friend of mine wants to trade my Grado S325i for a Creek OBH-11SE amp. Is that a good value? I had a Creek 21 (not SE) a while back and really liked it.

Dusty Chalk
11-04-2006, 03:13 AM
I really like the OBH-11SE (I own one). It's a great all-rounder. Can pretty much drive anything. And yes, I think it would be a step up from your Grado. I don't know what the S325i is worth, so don't know if that's a good trade, but strikes me as fair.