So is there no middle ground between yea and naysayers?

[Tony_Montana]

Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D

[okiemax]

Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D

What are you talking about, Tony? My audiophile powercord works real well with my coat hanger interconnects and my zip cord speaker wire held off the carpet with homemade risers. And I don't need a stinkin power conditioner messing up the sounds of my "perfect forever CD's." Seriously, there may be disagreement on what's extreme and what's not, with the middle being like, mmm .. say the middle of a circle or a jelly-filled donut. Excuse me, I'm hungry.

[happy ears]

No there is not much middle ground when it comes to cables just extremes. In my limited experience and I mean limited, I have heard some minor differences between cables, not always just sometimes. At least when I repeat the test I get the same results between the cables. Never heard any night or day differences that is for sure.

When I listen for differences I tend to use music sections that only have one instrument playing with as much range as possible. Complicated, busy or music with much information makes it extremely difficult to hear any differences, just to much going on for me to tell. Like I said at times I have heard small differences. I do not even think about a blind test unless I can here some differences, why even go through extra trouble unless there is something to test.

Now I have been told that my testing procedures are flawed and not up to the standards. I actually use a simple system, one CD player with “Y” adapters on the output and then two different cables from the adapters to my headphone amplifier which has volume control and three selectable inputs. Just sit there with the CD remote pick a section of music play it over and over and over again, while using the selector switch on the headphone amplifier to listen to differences between two sets of cables. I do realize that since I hooked it up I know what cable I am listening to, but the more expensive one has not always been better. Why would this be when people tell me that I am expecting the more exotic one to be better. If I can hear a difference I get my son to hook up the cables and cover the wires, all I then know is what positions to select. If I can still hear a difference I will try it with my stereo which I even hear less of a change, but this is due to the speakers, the weak link in my system. Like I said, at times at I can hear small changes and I do mean small. This is not a double blind test, it was conducted to prove or disprove are there any differences for myself.

Reasons I have been told why my tests are flawed.
1. I know which cable I am testing. True but the argument that I will favor the more expensive cable has failed in my tests. If there is no difference I feel there is no use doing a blind test.
2. The louder system always sounds better. I do not agree with this general statement but it is irrelevant as I am only using one source. If there was any noticeable volume difference I sure didn’t notice it, outside a flawed cable the only other reason would be that one cable acts like an attenuator. Like I need one of those cables, better get the cables with the built in tone controls and they better be adjustable.
3. The headphone amplifier uses tubes and everyone knows that tubes roll off the top end. First off it really doesn’t matter as I am using the same source and amp. If tubes are so bad give me tubes, for this little tube headphone amplifier has far surpassed any headphone outputs on any CD player or Integrated amplifier that I have owned or used. Again it is very limited amount of equipment that I have played with at my freedom.
4. Your CD players has tube output. Same reasons as #3. Also can use a similar model with all solid state components. Odd get the same results, even with the radio but less noticeable.
5. Best to use tape out to compare cables. This does not work with my integrated amplifier because the tape loop has a bigger affect on sound than any cable I have used. Buffer stage or what ever is going on inside affects the sound, the cable on the tape loop would always sound inferior. So much for making great copies off these outputs.

There have been other reasons given but they just get silly. Twenty years ago I just laughed at people that said cables can make a difference. I bought all mine at Radio Shack, never checked Wal-Mart, to busy most of the time for me. All I can say that I have changed my beliefs. Where in priorities should you list cables, well first of course from the bottom of the list. When the list is done take a pencil and draw a line through the word “cables”, when everything else on the list has been done then go have a look. For those that want to buy the best so be it, but not all of use can afford the best. For those that do not hear any differences I would buy the cheaper ones at radio shack. Some people truly do not hear differences, saw this many years ago when I was young. Although the person liked listening to music he swore that he could not hear the difference between the cheapest and most expensive systems. He bought purely what was on sale and looked nice to him, gotta have some criteria when buying something.

Just like CD versus Vinyl, I see positive and negatives with both formats. However, this is like comparing apples and oranges, I like both of them but apples are more convenient in my eyes and hands. Personally, I prefer vinyl it just does more for me even with the occasional pop, crackle and hiss. Oh yeah, just bought a used Michell turntable just slightly better than the Dual I had. Shouldn’t look at the nicer stuff, although it looks sharp the sound improvement in one word “WOW” and I even robbed the cartridge that I had on the dual. Give me that distortion. Shouldn’t the discussion between CD or Vinyl be compared to those big old tape machines for I believe the surpass both vinyl and CD.

Well just finished listening to Dvorak, a selection of Slavonic Dances by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. What’s that I am feeling, yes it is, the big Z that’s Led Zeppelin for those Classical lovers. Bad news Skeptic Rock and Roll is here to stay, it just will not die, it changes for better or worse but it is here to stay. Even worse it could be around almost as long as classical music, the good news is that I believe classical music will be around hundreds of years after our deaths. You cannot force people to listen to the music you like, you can only show them what they have not heard. I just wish that I could remember some of the music I have heard in weird locations for my collection no matter how large it is will also be missing music that I will like.

Have A Great Day and enjoy the music, life is to short

[skeptic]

"Bad news Skeptic Rock and Roll is here to stay, it just will not die"

Do you think I would be grateful if it were dead?

"No there is not much middle ground when it comes to cables just extremes"

The middle ground lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. It's a region we call "The Twilight Zone."

Is there a middle ground between the so called yea sayers and the so called nay sayers? Well there are the "may sayers." That's me. I remain to be convinced that cables make a difference. But I'm a hard one to sell. Maybe the hardest on this board. Because I not only demand to be shown objective evidence that some cables will make a sound system sound different than others, but that they will make it sound better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any cheaper or more effective way. I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash.

Do different cables have different electrical properties? There can be no doubt of that. Even two random production samples of the same cable made by the same manufacturer will test differently. Will they sound different? Is the difference an improvement? Is there a better way to obtain the same improvement? Is it something I should want to buy? In more than twenty years since I've seen this category of products on the market, they have proliferated, the most expensive have gotten ever more expensive, the sales have soared, but I'm still waiting for some hard convincing evidence. And from what I expect, I will have a long time to wait if I ever expect to get a sensible answer.

[happy ears]

"but that they will make it sound better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any cheaper or more effective way"

Making it sound better is subjective for each of us but that would be the goal. Yes I do agree that it should be cheaper by a lot, maybe if we could figure what causes this slight difference then we would also know how to do cheaply.

"I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash. "

Like I said way to much, it would be nice if the seller produced some tangable results. I do not think we will not see this for a long while. What and how something will sound we only really find out when we get it home and use, but with cables I can say this is very small compared to other components.

"Do you think I would be grateful if it were dead?"

Couldn't tell, do not really care. I just think that when it comes to what type of music is irrelevant, but music is the reason for all of this. The more I hear, the more I want and it just doesn't end. It's all related but it's all different to me, sort of like the more I learn the less I really know.

Where and how does everyone store there ever increasing music collection? Use a seperate room?

Enjoy the Music

[E-Stat]

I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash.
Cables aside, do you find the seller of any component in an audio chain able to do that for you? And I gather you mean hard written scientifically proven fact. That which cannot be done with listening tests done in home trials at your abode.

rw

[skeptic]

Cables completely aside, do you find the seller of any component in an audio chain able to do that for you? Cartridges, arms, TTs, CDPs, tape units, tuners, preamps, power amps, speakers, surround gadgets whatever?

rw

The setup in many dealers' showrooms allows for reasonably rapid switching and comparison between one speaker and another, one receiver and another, one cd player or turntable and another. What do they offer in a way to compare these cables one against another?

Equipment manufacturers publish specifications and most audiophiles have at least a rudimentary understanding of what those specifications mean. I'd say most audiophiles would be aware that you aren't going to drive an 83 db @1w/1m loudspeaker satisfactorily with a 7 watt class A amplifier or that you don't need a 200 wpc amplfier to drive high efficiency horn speakers. But what about cables? How do you know which one to buy? Let's assume you have decided that you definitely want to put some money into them because you are convinced you could hear an improvement. On what basis would you make your selection? Dealer recommendation? Price? A friend's recommendation? Certainly not on the recommendation of someone on an internet chat board. Oh you mean there aren't any shills out there posting? What specs to do you go on or even start with to narrow down the vast choices?

If you are an electrical engineer and have a good working knowledge of network analysis, you could take LCR specifications for cables if they were available, and measurements for the complex impedence of your amplifier and loudspeakers, and calculate the minute difference from one cable to another in terms of overall frequency response of the system. Just about nobody does that and at least 99% of audiophiles couldn't if they wanted to. But what would that give you? A few tenths of a db difference at 20 Khz from one to another? Is that all there is to it? Just a little extra high end boost? Is that what I'm being asked to spend my money on? If there is more to it, what is it? And don't just give me testimonials about clearer sound, better sound stage, firmer bass, etc. Prove it.

[pctower]

Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D

I can't speak for Steve, but just to clarify, I really don't know where the truth lies. All I know with reasonable certainty is that nobody seems to have ever demonstrated publicly under blind conditions that they can distinguish between similar cables of similar gauge and length. The only possible exception to that may be Professor Philip Greenspun at MIT who published a report of tests yielding positives in an MIT journal called the Computer Music Journal. But he concedes that test was only single blind.

[rb122]

"
Where and how does everyone store there ever increasing music collection? Use a seperate room?

Enjoy the Music

The LP's have their own room - about 4000 of them. One of the things I like about the CD over the LP is its compact size. I have about 4000 CD's also and, except for LP-sized boxed sets, the rest take up a space of about 4' H, 8' W and 4' D. First I buy vinyl sleeves for the CD's and remove the discs and all paperwork from the plastic jewel cases. Then I bought two tupperware-like tubs normally used for storing tools or silverware or whatever. The CD's are then loaded, two rows per drawer, six drawers per tub. the sleeves cut my storage needs by about 2/3. No, I can't see the titles without flipping through the discs (they are loaded front cover towards me) but I do have them all alphabetized. No, it doesn't look nice but it is an effective way to maximize the number of discs in a minimum of space. The two tubs go into the closet of my spare bedroom, the room itself lined floor to ceiling with LP's. Anybody need spare jewel cases? I still have a box of them in the garage with a few thousand in the box. :)

I appreciate good sound, but it pales in comparison to good music!

[kexodusc]

You've got 4000 CD's and 4000's LP's?
Why? At 40 minutes an album you'd have to listen to music for something like 10 hours a day just to hear them all once a year!
My local music store has a selection of about 2800 CD albums.
That's nuts man, how would you one CD if you were looking for it? God forbid you ever put one in the wrong jewel case!!!

Any plans for a yard sale soon??? :)

[Rockwell]

Not to mention that number of albums would cost roughly $100000.

[RobotCzar]

Tony,

What would the "middle ground" look like? If the question is "Can people hear differences in cables" the answer is yes. But, if the question is "Do people hear differences in cables made for home audio systems in using their systems?" Then it seems to me that we should answer this question "no" until someone demonstrates that they can.

"Middle ground" always seem like a nice idea, a compromise, not an "extreme". But, there are somethings that are either true or false or that are supported by the evidence or are not (e.g., evolution vs. creationism).

From another perspective, it is more legitimate to ask "what matters most" or what factors are important for getting good (or excellent) sound reproduction in the home? It is a disservice to take a middle position on cables as there is no real evidence that they make ANY audible difference (even though mearsured differences exist).

Finally, one must consider the status quo, which--in home audio-- is so full of misrepresentations and outright false information. Many things taken as "fact" by high end audiophiles are simply not true, and they won't admit it. Under these circumstances, it is better for those trying to bring so clarity to the field to take a more firm position than they would if condictions were different. Given current contiditons in the audio world, it is most helpful to beginners if we simply summarize by saying "Cables don't matter in regard to what you hear" and leave it at that.

[rb122]

You've got 4000 CD's and 4000's LP's?
Why? At 40 minutes an album you'd have to listen to music for something like 10 hours a day just to hear them all once a year!
My local music store has a selection of about 2800 CD albums.
That's nuts man, how would you one CD if you were looking for it? God forbid you ever put one in the wrong jewel case!!!

Any plans for a yard sale soon??? :)

True but if I wanted to listen to a particular disc or musician, I would only need to go to my bins and find it rather than have to do without. And I'm very anal about putting the discs back in the proper cases! VERY anal :). No, I don't listen to everything once a year - some I rarely listen to, but I never get rid of anything.

As for the cost, yes it was high but I bought most of the stuff used. I just found a nice selection of about 400 LP's I bought from a neighbor lady for the princely sum of $100. It seems that they belonged to her son who was killed in a car wreck several years ago - and no, I didn't take advantage of her! She wanted to give them to me. The music is mostly rock with a dab of classical thrown in. And please excuse my misprint - I have 2000 CD's, not 4000. I must have had 4000 on the brain. I only buy CD's these days if I can't find the music on vinyl - which is sadly a common occurrence. And there are others on this board whose collection make me look like a piker. Lastly, my good friend, if I COULD listen to music 10 hours a day, I would, but I'm lucky if I can get in three.

[kexodusc]

Am I ever jealous...I have healthy collection of about 200LP's, 300 CD's, 12 8-tracks, and 100 cassettes give or take a few of each...
4000 albums...I'd never be bored again. You are my new hero!!! :)

[rb122]

Am I ever jealous...I have healthy collection of about 200LP's, 300 CD's, 12 8-tracks, and 100 cassettes give or take a few of each...
4000 albums...I'd never be bored again. You are my new hero!!! :)

ha ha! Thanks! Actually, I'm just highly motivated and poor so I seek out good stuff at the local Goodwill's and garage sales. Many of the LP's are somewhat worn but even many of the ones with a lot of noise still have that musical presence that I just can't find on CD. But I've made quite a few large purchases with very little money. There are plenty of used CD shops that help keep me up to date on a budget and I occasionally stretch out and, sweating profusely, buy that new disc at close to full retail. Check your local Goodwill for great deals on used vinyl. I still haven't made it through all the 400 LP's I just bought but the lady threw in her son's Discwasher so he was concerned about their playability. There is very little surface noise on these LP's. Just lucky - I'm certainly no hero. :)

You have 8-tracks? Do you have a working player? I've heard so much about them but I postdate that era. Did they at least sound passable or were they mostly just the format for cars?

[kexodusc]

Well, I have 2 very crappy 8-track players...One by Technics that weighs a ton (and might be good for all I know) and one by Yorx.
I'm not too impressed with the format compared to LP's and CD's, but it would give cassettes a run for their money. I haven't listened to them in probably 2 years now as I'm hoping they'll be worth something to the right moron someday.

[mtrycraft]

The only possible exception to that may be Professor Philip Greenspun at MIT who published a report of tests yielding positives in an MIT journal called the Computer Music Journal. But he concedes that test was only single blind.

Is this on line? Available another way? How long is it to scan and email?

[bturk667]

What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables. Let those who believe that cables are nothing more that audio bull$hit, believe it. Let those who believe they do make a difference, like me, go on doing so.

I'm happy with the choices that I have made. I love my cables, long live Nordost!!!

Lastly, for those who are on the fence or just don't know, let your own ears guide you. Trust them before you trust anyone from either camp. After all it is your money, spend it as you see fit.

[E-Stat]

The setup in many dealers' showrooms allows for reasonably rapid switching and comparison between one speaker and another, one receiver and another, one cd player or turntable and another.
Isn't that just flawed sighting testing subject to all the human foibles?



But what about cables? How do you know which one to buy? Let's assume you have decided that you definitely want to put some money into them because you are convinced you could hear an improvement.
I began with reviews from knowledgeable sources (I happen to know both of them and have heard theirs systems) and a dealer in whom I could trust. I did not, however, begin with the assumption that I would hear a difference. I have a deep love of music and some disposable income and if I found audible differences, then I would weigh that decision appropriately. I have no desire to spend money just to spend money. My comparisons were done in what I believe to be a better environment for me to discern what differences exist (or do not as the case may be): my own system. The "overpriced" cables in my system were only purchased after weeks of comparisons weighing what I heard. How is that worse than quick audio cowboy showroom switching on unfamiliar gear in an unfamiliar setting?



But what would that give you? A few tenths of a db difference at 20 Khz from one to another? Is that all there is to it? Just a little extra high end boost? Is that what I'm being asked to spend my money on?
Your response assumes that such measurements fully describe the world in which they are asked to perform. There is more to the (subtle) differences I hear than a tipped up (or down) high end response. Perhaps my system is simply more sensitive to others based on the component mix. I use passive attenuators from CDP to amps because I find there to be a significant difference in clarity, definition, image width, and dynamic range with bypassing the otherwise superflous active preamp stage. The Audio Research unit is nice, but not perfect. I use tube power amps driving electrostatic speakers, another situation known to be more challenging than others.



If there is more to it, what is it?
I honestly have no idea.

rw

[Tony_Montana]

What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables.


I guess what I was saying is that if we get rid of views that don't have any objective/scientific backing (such as cable breakins or silver vs Copper) and concentrate on subjects that do have some type of scientific credentials (such as zip vs star quad speaker cables), then would there be still as much bickering over cable subject.

It seem to me that cable flame wars really escalate when subject are on either extreme end and nobody seem to agree on anything. If cut out the extreme views (such as JR on one side or Mtry on the other..sorry Mtry, just trying to prove a point :D) and move it to middle ground, we may have more people on both sided agree with each other more.

I think Jneutron might be a good example of "middle of road" approach views :)

[Lowdef]

To me there are only two groups of people on this site.

1. People that can hear differences between cables and

2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

No middle ground needed, just honesty!

[skeptic]

You still have not said how you made your selection except to limit your choices to a few products someong else recommended.

"Your response assumes that such measurements fully describe the world in which they are asked to perform."

Much of my formal education was devoted to understanding the mathematical analysis of giants like Laplace and Fourier who built on the work of other mathematical giants Newton and Leibnitz. The notion that the electrical behavior of any electronic component including wire can't be fully explained by the electronic testing and mathematical waveform analysis of the results is a myth that flies in the face of the expertise of the very people who design them. This is a pure myth among non technical people. But if they must insist on the rediculous, why don't they at least have some evidence that if these differences can't be measured, they can be proven by listeners blindly selecting them by sound alone? The answer I've given many times before is that they have no need to. They sell their products without proof or even real and convincing evidence of any kind. In fact, they have an incentive not to perform such tests because the outcome could only hurt their sales, not help it and believe me, they know it all too well.

[Monstrous Mike]

1. People that can hear differences between cables...

I think this should be rewritten to become: "1. People who claim to hear differences but cannot show it under controlled conditions. Aslo included in this group are people who do definitely perceive differences but cannot prove it is because of a cable change.



2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

That is simply ridiculous. Besides all people have likely heard some differences, as I have, between cables. But this is because the cable was not proper for the intended function or signal or it was defective.

Nice try....

[Beckman]

To me there are only two groups of people on this site.

1. People that can hear differences between cables and

2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

No middle ground needed, just honesty!

Well that clears everthing up for me.;)

[Beckman]

What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables. Let those who believe that cables are nothing more that audio bull$hit, believe it. Let those who believe they do make a difference, like me, go on doing so.

I'm happy with the choices that I have made. I love my cables, long live Nordost!!!

Lastly, for those who are on the fence or just don't know, let your own ears guide you. Trust them before you trust anyone from either camp. After all it is your money, spend it as you see fit.

I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.

[pctower]

I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.

"I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow."

Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement.

"They can only here (sic) no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics."

POLL: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

STRIKE THAT: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE CAN EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT SENTENCE WHICH HAS BEEN SO CAREFULLY CONSTRUCTED BY THIS MAN WHO THINKS "WITH REASON"?

"Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords."

I have. YUK!

"Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason."

I highly recommend that you consider joining the latter group.

"I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty."

That's priceless. Now in addition to believing the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth, yeasayers are dishonest?

[okiemax]

I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.

Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.

[Lowdef]

I think this should be rewritten to become: "1. People who claim to hear differences but cannot show it under controlled conditions. Aslo included in this group are people who do definitely perceive differences but cannot prove it is because of a cable change.


All the proving I need is to myself, if I perfer one cable over another, it's for a reason. (might be because I like the sound from one over the other). Why do I have to prove it to anyone else. Your not the one listening to my system, I am!

That is simply ridiculous. Besides all people have likely heard some differences, as I have, between cables. But this is because the cable was not proper for the intended function or signal or it was defective.

Nice try....

Well least you admit to hearing some differences, I guess every cable dosn't sound the same after all. ( Hmm, I hope all my cables are not defective then and maybe I shouldn't have them connected to the microwave) :D

[E-Stat]

You still have not said how you made your selection except to limit your choices to a few products someong else recommended.
If a cable, or for that matter, any component brings me closer to what I perceive to be a live performance, then I choose that component. You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. I disagree with the degree of your pessimism, but overall agree with the sentiment. So, what is the cause of the difference? Cables are perfect. 70's SS electronics are perfect. 80's box speakers are perfect. The RBCD standard is perfect. If everything is perfect, then where is the missing 100% of the live experience?



The notion that the electrical behavior of any electronic component including wire can't be fully explained by the electronic testing and mathematical waveform analysis of the results is a myth that flies in the face of the expertise of the very people who design them
I didn't say cannot. I said has not. For a long time, there were those who actually believed that one could evaluate the musical performance of an amplifier simply by looking at it's (averaged) THD performance. Then they learned better with better measurements.

rw

[skeptic]

Now it is you who misquoted me. You quoted me as saying; "You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. "

This is what I actually said. If the accuracy of a sound system is judged by its ability to reproduce a convincing facsimile of the auditory experience of hearing a live performance in a concert hall, then on a scale of 0 to 100 where 100 means that even experienced listeners who are frequent concert goers would be convinced practically every single time and where 0 means that practically all musically disinterested people with normal hearing would identify that they were hearing the reproduction of a recording by a machine immediately, then the best the current state of the art has to offer are sound systems which would rate 0. In other words, after more than 100 year of sound reproduction technology, the goal of recreating the experience of a live concert is well beyond what can be achieved today. The culprit is the inability to reproduce or even understand the crucial and overwhelming role the acoustics of the location of the performance plays in the experience. This does not mean that individual instruments or even groups of instruments or singers cannot be accurately reproduced when the reproducing equipment is located in the same venue as the performance. In other words, when it comes to hearing a musical performance in your home, the technology can do a good job of "they are here" but fails completely when it come to "you are there." And unfortunately the experience of having a symphony orchestra in your listening room if it were physically possible is not satisfactory.

The more you delve into the problem, the more you see the difficulty. I'm not going into the technical reasons now but it is sufficient form me to say that 30 years ago this month, I solved the mathematical and electrical aspects surrounding this problem, have patented the solution, found nobody interested in it, realize that it is utterly impractical for use in most homes, and have played with it as an idle curiousity on and off ever since. When put in this context, consideration of whatever miniscule improvement might be available from expensive audio cables is laughable.

[Beckman]

"I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow."

Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement.

"They can only here (sic) no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics."

POLL: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

STRIKE THAT: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE CAN EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT SENTENCE WHICH HAS BEEN SO CAREFULLY CONSTRUCTED BY THIS MAN WHO THINKS "WITH REASON"?

"Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords."

I have. YUK!

"Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason."

I highly recommend that you consider joining the latter group.

"I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty."

That's priceless. Now in addition to believing the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth, yeasayers are dishonest?

I appologize for my statements. In the future I will try to be less offensive when voicing my opinions.

[Beckman]

Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.

Good point. Who am I to say cables make no differance. People should read up on cables from people that know what they are talking about. Then judge for themselves what cables to use.

[pctower]

I appologize for my statements. In the future I will try to be less offensive when voicing my opinions.

Oh no. You're the second guy this week on this board who had made me look bad by posting a civil response to my rantings.

I was just trying to have some fun, probably at your expense. I apologize if I went too far. I have a difficult time taking most of this stuff seriously, yet I've gotten hooked on watching the never-ending, never-changing Cable Wars unfold year after year.

BTW, I agree with you that there's a lot of ego wrapped up in all of this. It's not just consumers, it's also the designers and manufacturers. But, from what I have observed, ego problems are not the exclusive province of that side of the argument. Some of the naysayers seem to get a little too wedded to their positions from what I've seen.

Why, some might even contend that those who merely observe the Cable Wars and are constantly commenting on the foibles of both sides have the worst ego problem of all.

[skeptic]

"Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement."

Before you get too smug PC, I would remind you that prior to Woodman revealing him as a racist and his subsequent departure, Jameson Davenport Briggs III likely had more money tied up in cables at the Caribou Compound in Maine than you have invested in your entire sound system. A thirty thousand dollar turntable didn't mean spit to him. As America's number one audiophile, money was no object and only the finest would do. People with that much money and that much interest eat Vandersteen V speakers and Rolland amplifiers for lunch. To them those are the equivalent of a table radio to the average person. So beware. No matter what you own, how much you've invested in it, or how great you think it is, there is always someone out there who makes your prized possessions look and feel like Salvation Army Store rejects.

[skeptic]

"Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?"

There are guarantees and guarantees. Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use. Then there is "your money cheerfully refunded if for any reason you are dissatisfied with your purchase within the first thirty days." Now that's a guarantee you can feel safe with assuming it isn't from a guy who stands on the corner with a pile of audio cables hanging in one side of his coat and a pile of fake Rollex watches in the other.

Where do you go to read up on cables? Do you read about them in magazines who count their manufacturers among their advertisers? Do you take out a text in electrical engineering and learn how to solve second order differential equations? Do you read the manufacturers' advertising literature?

Since everyone is an expert, which expert should you choose? Well perhaps you should choose John Curl who claims that the greatest difference he could find was between minus 120 and minus 135 db of the seventh harmonic of 5 khz for noise and distortion. Or perhaps you should read Jon Risch who says you can't hear any difference unless you own a "high resolution" sound system (guess that lets me out) and even then you should "roll your own." Of course, even to understand the advertising propaganda, you need special knowledge. One guy talks about strand jumping of electrons, another about the "Fermi Velocity" of electrons, and another about having no crystal boundaries in the metal.) You can read about the number and size of strands, the configuration of strands, whether the conductors should be oxygen free copper or sliver, how many twists there should or shouldn't be, what kind of insulation is ok and what kind isn't because of "dielcteric memory." Each guy who sells this stuff has his own angle on it. So if you read every single one of them you will be so busy you will never get to buy anything because by the time you get done, new people will come along with a whole new set of ideas and reasons why theirs is the best and all of the others are no good. See? Reading does pay off after all.

[Monstrous Mike]

If a cable, or for that matter, any component brings me closer to what I perceive to be a live performance, then I choose that component. You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. I disagree with the degree of your pessimism, but overall agree with the sentiment. So, what is the cause of the difference? Cables are perfect. 70's SS electronics are perfect. 80's box speakers are perfect. The RBCD standard is perfect. If everything is perfect, then where is the missing 100% of the live experience?



I didn't say cannot. I said has not. For a long time, there were those who actually believed that one could evaluate the musical performance of an amplifier simply by looking at it's (averaged) THD performance. Then they learned better with better measurements.

rw
I have several points for you. The first part of your post is quite correct. You buy what you want, what you can afford, what sounds best to you, etc. Nobody can argue against that. That is your personal right and your personal taste.

The problem begins when we start analyzing these components, like cables. There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord. It is just an ad copy. As well, since there is currently no valid scientific testing for conclusive evidence of cables sonics, it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables. That has always been true and will continue to be true forever. The hard part is figuring out where the mistakes, errors and omissions are and neither you nor I can conclude that there are unknown parameters in cable physics. It may or may not be so.

So we are fine if we stick to our basic positions. Yours is that you have bought components, brought them home and enjoyed them from your perspective. I have not seen any proof that specific cables are better than one and another but that also does not mean it is not so. The problems begin when we try to extend our position. For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?

And with regard to your comment about the missing percentage that our current sound systems cannot produce, I offer these ideas. I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes. And the reason (well the main reason) would be the room acoustics. If you want true reproduction, you would have to duplicate the acoustics of the venue the material was recorded in.

So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.

In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.

[pctower]

I have several points for you. The first part of your post is quite correct. You buy what you want, what you can afford, what sounds best to you, etc. Nobody can argue against that. That is your personal right and your personal taste.

The problem begins when we start analyzing these components, like cables. There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord. It is just an ad copy. As well, since there is currently no valid scientific testing for conclusive evidence of cables sonics, it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables. That has always been true and will continue to be true forever. The hard part is figuring out where the mistakes, errors and omissions are and neither you nor I can conclude that there are unknown parameters in cable physics. It may or may not be so.

So we are fine if we stick to our basic positions. Yours is that you have bought components, brought them home and enjoyed them from your perspective. I have not seen any proof that specific cables are better than one and another but that also does not mean it is not so. The problems begin when we try to extend our position. For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?

And with regard to your comment about the missing percentage that our current sound systems cannot produce, I offer these ideas. I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes. And the reason (well the main reason) would be the room acoustics. If you want true reproduction, you would have to duplicate the acoustics of the venue the material was recorded in.

So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.

In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.

I'm with you all the way. However, I would prefer to paste skeptic's last post on the end of yours and combine the two.

Skeptic continues where you left off to put cables in the context of what we should really be talking about if our goal is to make significant stides in audio reproduction in the home. The issues that usually get argued about in audio, such as cables, tubes v. solid state, formats, etc. are really meaningless when compared to trying to make real progress in areas that deal with fundamental deficiencies in our current reproduction methods.

Before skeptic decided I was the Anti-Christ, he shared a lot of detail with me about the system he developed, and it seems to me that he was attempting to deal with issues far more fundamental and important than just about anything that has been tried in the last 20 years. He may be right when he says his system might not be practical for home use, but I suspect it has never received a fair trial.

Because I know a little about the work he has done in this area, I can understand his frustrations over the usual subjects, such as cables, that take up so much time on the web, but which he knows pale in comparison to the type of issues he has taken on.

From what I understand, skeptic has a lot of experience with performance venues, and has combined his technical knowledge with that experience in an effort to reproduce in a home setting many of the sonic clues that exist at a live performance but which any current commercial system, no matter how good, cannot hope to reproduce in the home.

[E-Stat]

No matter what you own, how much you've invested in it, or how great you think it is, there is always someone out there who makes your prized possessions look and feel like Salvation Army Store rejects.
Absolutely. My friend HP's system is worth more in cables than the entirety of my comparatively modest system. You will not find me fauning over it with refrains of Gollum's "my precious". It is a sad statement that there are many folks who treat their systems as status symbols or otherwise materialistic totem poles.

Mine is there solely for the love of music for which I cannot imagine a life without.

rw

[E-Stat]

I have several points for you... There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord.
I was totally unaware of the ad copy for the JPS Labs cables I purchased before I purchased them.



...it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables.
I merely suggest that errors have been made in the past and will likely occur again. We are not as yet omniscient.
.


For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?
When large numbers of perceptive listeners hear something that defy measurements, then the measurement are incomplete. I am still waiting for a SINGLE report of ANY DBT with null results that uses something more than receivers and bookshelf speakers as the testing medium. Mtry provided a link to a test by TagMclaren that did use high quality gear (he obviously didn't read the details) but all it did was assert that their $300/meter ICs sounded the same as some midrange Nordost cables in the same price range.



I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes...So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.
No disagreement there. HP's system, however, makes all the walls disappear and transforms one into a very large acoustic space far beyond the boundaries of Music Room 3. Close your eyes (see I like blind experiences) and a forty foot wide and thirty foot deep stage appears before you (with better recordings, naturally)



In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.I see two distinctly different contexts in which such an analysis would be ascertained. The first is what I believe has been the prevalent one where every single report I have heard using DBT has been conducted: are there audible differences between zip and exotic cables using average audio equipment? The second would be far more stringent: can experienced listeners hear differences in the finest audio systems available today when using the finest cables?

The answer to the first question is easy. No. It is in the best economic interest of large commercial audio equipment companies to determine what makes the most sense in terms of delivering the most bang for one's buck with equipment that is commonly found. Would anyone disagree with that assertion?

The second one, in my mind, has yet to be determined with scientific testing. We are talking here of $250k+ systems that are (understandably) totally absent in any of the large scale mass market testing venues.

rw

[skeptic]

There is always something to drool over that you just gotta have. Then, one day you wake up (if you're me) and you realize that it's just another machine. How many countless thousands of machines have I seen, worked on, worried over, wanted, hated, repaired, installed, uninstalled, until eventually they become little more than a blur. That brand new car you just couldn't wait to get behind the wheel of becomes a familiar friend, then an old shoe to be taken for granted, and finally a clunker to be ditched for the next new gee whiz car. My current car was a rocket ship when I got it. Fastest thing I ever drove. Now with about 105,000 miles on it, it just gets me around. Maybe that last $500 speeding ticket cooled me down. Same with audio equipment, camera gear, tv sets, and everything else. All except my house. Next month it will be 4 years since I owned it. It still doesn't feel like home. Maybe it never will. Every day I get up, look at it and wonder what the hell I've done.

PS, if you own a house, you need a truck. Nothing like a truck. Maybe my next car will be a truck.

[E-Stat]

Because I know a little about the work he (Skeptic) has done in this area, I can understand his frustrations over the usual subjects, such as cables, that take up so much time on the web, but which he knows pale in comparison to the type of issues he has taken on.
Which is why I marvel at the amount of time these guys spend discussing what they believe to be a non issue. Call me crazy but I expend a sum total of zero time whatsoever discussing any topic that I find insignificant. You'd think he'd pen far more posts in the area of multichannel recording and reproduction than a topic that for him is virtually nonexistent.

rw

[Rockwell]

Which is why I marvel at the amount of time these guys spend discussing what they believe to be a non issue. Call me crazy but I expend a sum total of zero time whatsoever discussing any topic that I find insignificant. You'd think he'd pen far more posts in the area of multichannel recording and reproduction than a topic that for him is virtually nonexistent.

rw

Cable sonics are a non-issue, but the fraudulent use of them as a selling point isn't.

[E-Stat]

Cable sonics are a non-issue, but the fraudulent use of them as a selling point isn't.
Ok Lone Ranger, then why are you wasting time here and not testifying or litigating in court with the defendants?

rw

[mtrycraft]

Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.


Yes, restocking fees, shipping costs and how many just give in and forget it, not worth returning.

[okiemax]

"Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?"

There are guarantees and guarantees. Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use. Then there is "your money cheerfully refunded if for any reason you are dissatisfied with your purchase within the first thirty days." Now that's a guarantee you can feel safe with assuming it isn't from a guy who stands on the corner with a pile of audio cables hanging in one side of his coat and a pile of fake Rollex watches in the other.

Where do you go to read up on cables? Do you read about them in magazines who count their manufacturers among their advertisers? Do you take out a text in electrical engineering and learn how to solve second order differential equations? Do you read the manufacturers' advertising literature?

Since everyone is an expert, which expert should you choose? Well perhaps you should choose John Curl who claims that the greatest difference he could find was between minus 120 and minus 135 db of the seventh harmonic of 5 khz for noise and distortion. Or perhaps you should read Jon Risch who says you can't hear any difference unless you own a "high resolution" sound system (guess that lets me out) and even then you should "roll your own." Of course, even to understand the advertising propaganda, you need special knowledge. One guy talks about strand jumping of electrons, another about the "Fermi Velocity" of electrons, and another about having no crystal boundaries in the metal.) You can read about the number and size of strands, the configuration of strands, whether the conductors should be oxygen free copper or sliver, how many twists there should or shouldn't be, what kind of insulation is ok and what kind isn't because of "dielcteric memory." Each guy who sells this stuff has his own angle on it. So if you read every single one of them you will be so busy you will never get to buy anything because by the time you get done, new people will come along with a whole new set of ideas and reasons why theirs is the best and all of the others are no good. See? Reading does pay off after all.

You said "Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use." That certainly hasn't been my experience, although there was one exception. A Radio Shack once told me that lenghts of their speaker cable cut from spools was not returnable. But I have never bought an audiophile cable that didn't have a 30-day or a 60-day money back guarantee which allowed return of the cable for any reason.

I agree that being an armchair audiophile is relatively inexpensive. But it's no substitute for the real thing. Of course you can double the fun by reading about cables and listening to them at the same time.

[E-Stat]

Yes, restocking fees, shipping costs and how many just give in and forget it, not worth returning.
Interesting speculation. My dealer charges no restocking fees and since they are a ten minute drive away, there are no shipping costs.

rw

[Tony_Montana]

My dealer charges no restocking fees and since they are a ten minute drive away, there are no shipping costs.

How about gas money cost :D

[E-Stat]

How about gas money cost :D
You're right. Ten miles roundtrip at the nominal IRS 36.5 cents per mile would add up to....well $3.65.

rw

[gonefishin]

Hi guys :)


(so...Phil...your still here, eh?) ;)



In other words, after more than 100 year of sound reproduction technology, the goal of recreating the experience of a live concert is well beyond what can be achieved today.


Skeptic...nice post above.

While I do agree with much of what you said...to some degree. I do differ in the way I view some of what you describe.

I think past...and current technology does a fine job at reproducing the recording. ;)


again...nice post!



take care>>>>>>>

[mtrycraft]

Is that a Tice clock? :)

[skeptic]

Hey gonefishin, catch anything? I hear the Rischs were biting big time and could put up quite a fight.

[pctower]

"Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement."

Before you get too smug PC, I would remind you that prior to Woodman revealing him as a racist and his subsequent departure, Jameson Davenport Briggs III likely had more money tied up in cables at the Caribou Compound in Maine than you have invested in your entire sound system. A thirty thousand dollar turntable didn't mean spit to him. As America's number one audiophile, money was no object and only the finest would do. People with that much money and that much interest eat Vandersteen V speakers and Rolland amplifiers for lunch. To them those are the equivalent of a table radio to the average person. So beware. No matter what you own, how much you've invested in it, or how great you think it is, there is always someone out there who makes your prized possessions look and feel like Salvation Army Store rejects.

Oh my. I totally overlooked the esteemed Mr. Briggs III. Thanks for bringing be back down to reality.

Not only does he set a standard to which mere mortals could never hope to aspire, I hesitate to get crosswise with anyone who lives in a "Compound".

[trollgirl]

Before you get too smug PC, I would remind you that prior to Woodman revealing him as a racist and his subsequent departure, Jameson Davenport Briggs III likely had more money tied up in cables at the Caribou Compound in Maine than you have invested in your entire sound system. A thirty thousand dollar turntable didn't mean spit to him. As America's number one audiophile, money was no object and only the finest would do. [/QUOTE]

I don't remember him ever claiming to be number one, only one of the top four or five, if memory serves. I really don't think he existed, except as some troll's alter ego. Hell, the man could not even spell consistently!

Lazarus Short, the 147,825th top audiophile in the country...

[mtrycraft]

Interesting speculation. My dealer charges no restocking fees and since they are a ten minute drive away, there are no shipping costs.

rw


Not speculation at all and it doesn't require DBT, just reports from the many customers who did pay restocing fees shipping charges, etc. Consider yourself lucky. Oh, I guess your time is free. How about doing me a favor then.

[okiemax]

What restocking fee? I don't pay restocking fees for returning new cables, and I am not aware of any online seller who charges such a fee. The shipping expense is a small price for me to pay for the fun of trying different cables. If it were your time and money, you would have reason to complain, but since it's not, you don't. If you bought and returned a few cables, you would have cause to gripe. You also would have an answer for those who fault naysayers for never trying anything. Whoops, I'm starting to do the same thing I blast you for doing.