Recommend me some good subs around $600.

[minye]

I think my next upgrdad will be my subwoofer. Now I am using a JBL PB12. It works fine, but sounds a little boomy ( I guess because I didn't own better sub). I love my Paradigm Studio 40 V3 and CC470. And I want a better sub to match those best valued Studios.

I am thinking of following options:

1. Dayton Titanic from Parts Express. ( I wonder if I will have difficulty to sell it when next upgrade since it is not a famous brand)

2. A used Sunfire True Sub..

3. A used Paradigm around that budget( I don't know which one is good except the expensive Servo15)

I need the sub to be both good in HT and music. And it should have the best performance for the dollar like my Studio 40.

Thanks in advance.

[Grandpaw]

Take a look at these


http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-isd.cfm


A friend of mine just ordered this one.... Jeff
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm#extension

[elapsed]

Might want to consider the HSU VTF-2 :)

[RoyY51]

Once again, my vote goes to the Outlaw LFM-1. This Hsu-designed sub is musical, powerful (325 watt BASH amp) and great looking. Available on-line for $579 from Outlaw Audio.

[N. Abstentia]

You're right about option 1. Nice subs if you plan to keep it. Zero resale value.

Option 2...I'd not even consider one of those. Too many reliability issues and Bob Carver seems to go out of business every other week.

Option 3 I'd forget about UNLESS you can find a Servo 15 in your price range. It's definitley the cream of the crop.

So unless you can do option 3, go with one of the other options...Outlaw, SVS, or HSU. The Outlaw is probably the best bang for the buck.

[Dusty Chalk]

I liked my Sunfire when I had it, but I think the next sub I'm getting is an SVS.

[bigfanga]

Jeff, be sure to let us all know how that SVS works out for your buddy. I am giving very serious thought to getting one myself.

[SlumpBuster]

SVS, HSU, ect are all good choices. But, you mentioned "boomy" was a problem and that you might want some resale. So I'm going to recommend a sub that I think is very nice, even if it is not a big as some that you were looking at, the Velodyne Minivee
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-stdHncCwOWX/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=232MINIVB

At $800 retail, maybe a little more then you want to spend, but I think a speaker as refined as the Studio 40 deserves a little more. Actually, you can get it for significantly less on Ebay. Come to think of it, with the 40s, I would pony up the extra cash and I would go for the SPL-1200R with automatic room correction. http://cgi.ebay.com/VELODYNE-SPL-1200R-SUBWOOFER-NEW_W0QQitemZ180028452738QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3275QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180028452738

That will kick the hell out of your upgradeitus.

[minye]

Thanks Guys. Now I've got some ideas.

[kexodusc]

You're right about option 1. Nice subs if you plan to keep it. Zero resale value.

Not really...you might not sell it on ebay as easily, but from what I've experienced Dayton woofers and amps sell for as much or higher resale than the likes of SVS and Paradigm....Just visit the PE forum or any DIY site and put a for sale post up, there are thousands of DIY-ers...it'll be gone in 3 days or less. I've sold used woofers and plate amps for 60-85% of new price before with no problem at all. I've paid that much for used drivers and stuff too. That's more than my Paradigm Studio's or PW-2200 went for second hand. You may be out the $100 cabinet, then again, maybe not. The Titanics are well known across the continent now and there are a few DIY-ers who buy the finished versions 2nd hand - not every DIY-er builds their own cabinets...subs always sell fast..you still see the older Titanics selling for good money.

Depends on how long you plan on keeping it I guess...Buying a sealed, commercial sub from SVS, Outlaw, or HSU, you'd have to spend an aweful lot more money to get the something better. My old HSU was nowhere close to my the 12" Titanic I built for my folks and cost more brand new. But if you're buying a HSU or SVS sub with idea of resale for upgrade in the near future, you should probably just save up and get the sub you want anyway - you'd be saving a lot of money.

You could probably build something a lot better than the Titanics if you're so inclined - they're a great value and alternative to a lot of higher priced commercial stuff, but they've been surpassed by other DIY offerings. They're equally suited for music and home theater - probably more versatile than most ported sub offerings in that regard - SVS subs are excellent for home theater, but aren't quite as good for music. A Titanic might not play quite as low as an SVS on account of the sealed design, but the sound quality is definitely better. Transient response and "tightness" or "bass-definition" or whatever you want to call it are the strengths. Bit of a trade-off. Of course if you got the 15" Titanic you'd be fine.
For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000. Might have to ask yourself how much you really care about owning a brand name.
My 15" subs cost $250 each to build, and are better than $800 subs I've bought. Not as good as the Titanic for Home Theater, but definitely a step up on them for music, that was a trade-off I wanted. Personally, when you get down to 23 Hz or lower at 100 dB for movie effects, it's all the same to me, I haven't thought twice about it.

These days though, there's a lot of pretty good $600 and under subs that would have cost a lot more just 5 years ago. Look how many people are selling subs now. Easy to desing and build, and not quite as much mark-up anymore. Subs have improved more than anything else in audio in the past several years IMO. I don't think you'll be disappointed whatever direction you go.

[3db]

Once again, my vote goes to the Outlaw LFM-1. This Hsu-designed sub is musical, powerful (325 watt BASH amp) and great looking. Available on-line for $579 from Outlaw Audio.

and within 50$ of the price of the Oultaw. According to a subwoofer shoot out in Sound and Vision, the PSB Subsonic 6i played lower, louder, cleaner and had a more uniform freqquecny response curve compared to all the other subs in that price range. The LFM-1 ran 2nd place.

[Rock789]

My 15" subs cost $250 each to build, and are better than $800 subs I've bought. Not as good as the Titanic for Home Theater, but definitely a step up on them for music, that was a trade-off I wanted. Personally, when you get down to 23 Hz or lower at 100 dB for movie effects, it's all the same to me, I haven't thought twice about it.
I don't suppose you would share your design :cornut:

[RoyY51]

and within 50$ of the price of the Oultaw. According to a subwoofer shoot out in Sound and Vision, the PSB Subsonic 6i played lower, louder, cleaner and had a more uniform freqquecny response curve compared to all the other subs in that price range. The LFM-1 ran 2nd place.

I auditioned the PSB Subsonic 6i (along with a few others in this price range) and it was a very impressive unit. On movies, it sounded very similar to the Outlaw. With music, however, the Outlaw sounded faster, more responsive. Given that the LFM-1 is more powerful (325 watts compared to 225 watts), has a higher peak wattage (1000 watts compared to 600 watts), plays lower (25 hz compared to 29 hz), is drop-dead gorgeous, more nimble, AND sells for $50 less, I don't think that I'll be trading it in for the 6i anytime soon.

By the way, have you ever noticed how many and how large the PSB ads are in S&V? Something to consider...

[Grandpaw]

Jeff, be sure to let us all know how that SVS works out for your buddy. I am giving very serious thought to getting one myself.

The sub has been pre ordered but they won't start shipping them untill some time in October. The system he will be using it on will be for two channel stereo, so that will be the only way I hear it. It is for Bingo and he is not interested in home theater, but I will still let you know what I think of it, Jeff


He likes orchestras and violins :17:

[kexodusc]

I don't suppose you would share your design :cornut:
Not my design at all, but it's the extremely popular value-leading Dayton Quatro 15" woofer and a 240 watt plate amp...make your cabinet anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 cubic ft internal volume - (I went 3.5 for a low Q of 0.67). 3/4" MDF is fine, I like double thicking the front baffle. I used a shelf brace at the midpoint and some shims at corners.

There's been a zillion of these made, and every audio website I visit has a few people with this design. I have no idea who thought to combo them up first. For all but the largest rooms they'll rock the house, but the low xmax design and good efficiency make this a stellar woofer for music. There's better designs out there, but not for the money, yet. Throw in a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for Parametric EQ and you have a total bass solution for any room at less than $350. My old HSU VTF-2 and Paradigm PW-2200 were great for movies, and definitely added some punch to some forms of music, but they had that typical boomy sub "hangover" effect that a lot of ported designs have. For half the price I got more bottome extension, better sound definition, more output and full parametric equalization.

This works great for people who want their home theater to tackle music as well. Of course, you can spend a bit more and do better, but this was the best cost/performance benefit I could find at the time. My critical music listening is done on my 2-channel rig.

[nightflier]

SVS subs are excellent for home theater, but aren't quite as good for music. A Titanic might not play quite as low as an SVS on account of the sealed design, but the sound quality is definitely better. Transient response and "tightness" or "bass-definition" or whatever you want to call it are the strengths. Bit of a trade-off. Of course if you got the 15" Titanic you'd be fine.

Kex,

This has been a common misconception about SVS ever since they were selling exclusively cylinder subs. However, this is almost always due to tuning and location.

When I first auditioned an SVS sub, I spent hours, days trying out different combinations and there was not a sub-$1000 sub that compared. I put it up against a $1200 Paradigm, as well as subs from Infinity, Velodyne, and Klipsch and it was faster, tighter, and more acurate than any other sub. I used music samples that are well into the low 20Hz range and the SVS sub was phenominal. I didn't plan on purchasing it because it was so large & ugly, but there was no better bang for the buck, literally. I spent hours on the phone and online talking to the sales reps from the subs to tune and place them optimally in the room, and the SVS still came out on top each time.

Of course, I am now stuck with a 4 foot water-cooler sized box in my room and I am having to make the hard choice of finding a box that will perform as well. I'm considering all the subs mentioned here, including the Outlaw, SVS, and Daytons but I seriously doubt that I'll find an equally capable sub in a smaller box. SVS makes one incredible cylinder sub, especially for music, and I have to believe that the company will maintain that reputation in their box subs.

Let us know what you end up with and how you like it.

[minye]

"For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

That is really persuading.

Kex,

Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...

[drseid]

Kex,

This has been a common misconception about SVS ever since they were selling exclusively cylinder subs. However, this is almost always due to tuning and location.

When I first auditioned an SVS sub, I spent hours, days trying out different combinations and there was not a sub-$1000 sub that compared. I put it up against a $1200 Paradigm, as well as subs from Infinity, Velodyne, and Klipsch and it was faster, tighter, and more acurate than any other sub. I used music samples that are well into the low 20Hz range and the SVS sub was phenominal. I didn't plan on purchasing it because it was so large & ugly, but there was no better bang for the buck, literally. I spent hours on the phone and online talking to the sales reps from the subs to tune and place them optimally in the room, and the SVS still came out on top each time.

Of course, I am now stuck with a 4 foot water-cooler sized box in my room and I am having to make the hard choice of finding a box that will perform as well. I'm considering all the subs mentioned here, including the Outlaw, SVS, and Daytons but I seriously doubt that I'll find an equally capable sub in a smaller box. SVS makes one incredible cylinder sub, especially for music, and I have to believe that the company will maintain that reputation in their box subs.

Let us know what you end up with and how you like it.

Certainly can't argue with the "bang for the buck" comment, as SVS is tough to beat there IMO...

I do have to agree with Kex about them being better for HT than music. Of course, everything is relative... Out of the subs you mentioned/auditioned Nightflier, I too would have probably picked the SVS over them for music as well (as SVS is still quite capable in that area too). That said, other brands can handle music *better* than the SVS IMO like ACI, REL and Rocket, etc. I would pick SVS over all three if my primary use was HT, but if music was my priority I would most likely look at one of those first (although ACI and REL cant be had new for $600 or less). Also building a sub from scratch for $600 can yield some great results if you know what you are doing.

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Nightflier - I've heard no fewer than a dozen SVS subs - seems SVS has stolen the torch from Velodyne the past few years, pretty much all my non-DIY ing friends own SVS with a few Paradigms and HSU in the mix. I really like the subs (didn't at first), even the cylinders. THey are very cleverly designed, and well tuned. And they sound better for music than many ported subs do - probably a reason for their popularity - but they are just outclassed for music reproduction by a well designed sealed sub IMO. This isn't so much a knock on SVS, as it is on ported subs in general. They have certain limitations With the exception of possibly dual-chamber reflex designs and some transmission lines, but to my knowledge nobody build those at an affordable level.
The flipside is the output, extension and power for the money SVS delivers - hard to beat. Sealed subs are at a disadvantage to SVS and other porteds in that department unless you spend more money or go very large. They tend to work better in smaller rooms. Porteds tend to work better in larger rooms. Just physics.

I agree with drseid ACI and REL offer much better sounding subwoofers, IMO, but they probably aren't the best compromise for people who use their systems for Home Theater 50% of the time. Power, output, and "fun factor" are a subs biggest selling feature, especially in stores, and when $1200 sealed sub won't play as loud or as low as a $600 sub during Jurassic Park, it's hard to sell. Probably why we don't see many in stores.

FWIW, I'm strongly considering replacing my HT sealed sub with a newer ported sub and moving it to my stereo system for some of these reasons. You don't tow trailers with cars, you don't get good gas mileage with trucks. Ported/sealed subs are similar in that regard - certain design traits lend themselves to certain applications a bit better than others.

[kexodusc]

"For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

That is really persuading.

Kex,

Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...

There are many designs out there that offer better this or better that....depends what you're looking for. The Titanics aren't bad or obsolete by any means, they're just designed to offer wide appeal rather than tailor made to certain preferences.
The most popular from the Parts Express/Dayton crowd these days is the new Reference line of subs - here's a good project that will offer significantly better sound and most of the output and extension of the Titanics in a smaller box. These are all the rage in Dayton world right now - and again arguably the best value in performance subs (Dayton's big on value).
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/drake/index.html

There are better woofers and designs out there than this though, depends what you want and what your budget is:
Just google Adire, TCSound, Dayton, Ascendant Audio, Brahma, and you'll find plenty of projects soon enough.

[3db]

I auditioned the PSB Subsonic 6i (along with a few others in this price range) and it was a very impressive unit. On movies, it sounded very similar to the Outlaw. With music, however, the Outlaw sounded faster, more responsive. Given that the LFM-1 is more powerful (325 watts compared to 225 watts), has a higher peak wattage (1000 watts compared to 600 watts), plays lower (25 hz compared to 29 hz), is drop-dead gorgeous, more nimble, AND sells for $50 less, I don't think that I'll be trading it in for the 6i anytime soon.

By the way, have you ever noticed how many and how large the PSB ads are in S&V? Something to consider...


This review was done about 3 -4 years ago . Reviewing the specs of both, it seems the Outlaw has considerable more grunt now than it did during the shootout. Your posts of the subsonic6i specs were partially incorrect;
Amplifier Power
Continuous 225 Watts
Dynamic 350 Watts
Dynamic Peak 700 Watts

I also noticed the Outlaws adds are also as prominent as PSBs ...

[kexodusc]

This review was done about 3 -4 years ago . Reviewing the specs of both, it seems the Outlaw has considerable more grunt now than it did during the shootout. Your posts of the subsonic6i specs were partially incorrect;
Amplifier Power
Continuous 225 Watts
Dynamic 350 Watts
Dynamic Peak 700 Watts

I also noticed the Outlaws adds are also as prominent as PSBs ...

I'd pay much less attention to the power output (especially peak power) and more to the sensitivity of the woofers if given. If not take the peak SPL output spec and work backwards.
The LFM-1 write-up I have claims 115 dB with ideal positioning and placement with room gain - ie: in a corner.
Let's subtract the 6 dB or so corner gain, and we're at a healthy 109 max at Dynamic peak 700 power...working down to 1 watt I get around 82 - 85 dB sensitivity being generous - rather common for many 12" subs.

The PSB specs only claim 111 dB max SPL at a ridiculous 100 Hz (above most subs operating range) and no further details provided. Given the peak power of 700 watts as well, I'd assume the Outlaw has a bit more real output capability. In real terms, both will top 100 dB in most rooms and that's probably enough for most people. Which one sound better is another question all together. I've heard neither.

By comparison, my modest sub is powered by a 240 watt unit, but at 88-91 dB sensitivity it has no problem topping 112 dB anechoic (ie: no room gain) at 40 Hz and 240 watts <1% distortion...(I think peak power is 500 or something but those figures are unreliable). If I added 3 db for peak power and 6 dB for room gain I'm at 121 dB (too loud). Theory is a wonderful thing.

All this to say sub specs are too misleading and unreliable since there aren't really any conventional measurement standards. When you get into peak power you're sub is gonna be distorting and probably approaching it's mechanical limitations which throws sound quality to hell.

These days manufacturers throw inexpensive high-watt odd-ball digital style amps in subs with inefficient woofers and hope the 1000 watts or more acts as a selling feature.

[Bernd]

Guys, Guys, Guys....you want Boom Times. Just get one of these and have it done with.:ihih:

[kexodusc]

"For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

That is really persuading.

Kex,

Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...


Oops misread your question earlier - all I can say is the 12" Titanic was a much better sounding sub than my $800 Paradigm PW-2200, which was alot better than my $500 HSU-VTF-2. (we're talking 2 years ago as I recall). I think you could spend at least 1.5 - 2.0 times as much on a lot of subs and not do any better. If you could build your own cabinet and avoid buying "kits" you can do much better though and save even more money.
That's as bluntly honest as I'll go since those were upgrades I made after listening to the subs I had in my own home.
I haven't done a shoot out with the Titanics and any other commercial subs I can recall, just other DIY subs.
I haven't heard a commercial sub under $1200 I would put beside the 15" Titanic (not to say they don't exist, I just can't hear every sub), though I'd put the ACI Titan XL above the 12" Titanic for sound quality. And it does look much, much better, which is important.

[kexodusc]

If my wife would let me, I'd build an Infinite Baffle sub system with at least two 15" woofers - the large, 16" holes in the wall required continue to be a deal-breaker... :D

[Grandpaw]

Guys, Guys, Guys....you want Boom Times. Just get one of these and have it done with.:ihih:

I never thought about placing my center channel vertical to get more bass out of it, but doesn't it still need to be next to my TV? LMAO, Jeff

[nightflier]

Kex, drseid,

I should not forget to add that my testing was done some time ago using what was then pretty much the best that SVS had to offer. I've been an SVS evangelical ever since and that does cloud my better judgement. Since it is now in my HT room, it has become the family sub, rather than my 2-channel music listening sub...

As much as I enjoy the SVS, I am also realizing that my esthetic tastes are changing and I am actually looking to replace this sub because of its size to one of the box subs from SVS or any of their competitors. I'm curious to know how the sealed box subs from SVS compare to the likes of ACI, Rel, Dayton (and Rocket?) on music.

Yes, it's for the "family HT" room, but that is also the only place that I can enjoy SACD in surround.

[drseid]

Kex, drseid,

I should not forget to add that my testing was done some time ago using what then was the pretty much best that SVS had to offer. I've been an SVS evangelical ever since and that does cloud my better judgement. Since it is now in my HT room, it has become the family sub, rather than my 2-channel music listening sub...

As much as I enjoy the SVS, I am also realizing that my esthetic tastes are changing and I am actually looking to replace this sub because of its size to one of the box subs from SVS or any of their competitors. I'm curious to know how the sealed box subs from SVS compare to the likes of ACI, Rel, Dayton (and Rocket?) on music.

Yes, it's for the "family HT" room, but that is also the only place that I can enjoy SACD in surround.

I'll have to defer to Kex or others on this one, as the new sealed sub from SVS is one I have not heard yet (although it is on my list of things that I must hear soon). All of my SVS sub experience has been with the ported varieties...

---Dave

[kexodusc]

I'll have to defer to Kex or others on this one, as the new sealed sub from SVS is one I have not heard yet (although it is on my list of things that I must hear soon). All of my SVS sub experience has been with the ported varieties...

---Dave

I'm only aware of the 1 sealed model, SB-12 Plus model for $700-$800.
It's not even available yet, but it certainly LOOKS impressive and it's nice to see SVS finally offer a sealed sub. This shows me they're less concerned about the horsepower race and more about the product.
It may or may not exceed the ACI, REL stuff, I personally doubt it at that price, but the comparable ACI's for example are $1100 +. Out of many people's price range. Looking at the specs, I think it could give the 12" Titanic kit a run for it's money. The Titanic has a larger, and higher quality amp and I'm sure plays louder (they were designed with low distorion, hi output in mind), but wouldn't be surprised if the SVS sounded as good in most rooms. The price is certainly appealing, for only $200 more you get a pre-assembled, vinyl finished SVS sub that would at least be very close in most aspects to the Titanic kit. That is impressive considering SVS probably builds these for around $400 or so depending on the finish. I see a lot of $700-$800 commercial subs likely cost aroundn $200 to throw together. I can't wait to hear one, but it could be quite awhile since I don't know anyone shopping for subs in my area.

If it were me, I would consider spending $200 on a 500 watt Bash amp, mate it with a $130, Dayton Reference - Hi Fi 12" woofer (or hi-output version if so desired), and buy a $115 cabinet (or build and finish a better one for $40-$60) and for under $400 you have a provend design, 12" sealed sub that leaves $1200 sealed subs behind. If size permits, step up to a 15" woofer that would likely sound better and be cheaper (it costs money packing good performance into small packages) Or if you want to spend $700-$800, go with a 12" or 15" TC Sounds or Adire woofer or something crazy and never look back.

[46minaudio]

If you are thinkin DIY give this site a look also...
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm

[nightflier]

Kex, just out of curiosity, if I were to go the Dayton route, any inexpensive & simple upgrades to their basic 12" kit that would help improve on their design? I was thinking about anything less involved than soldering, maybe better bracing, damping, and padding options?

I'm not sold on this option yet, but the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

[GMichael]

the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

Or the 15 incher?

[Rock789]

how do the dayton titantic subs compare with themselves? (10" 12" & 15")
is the 10" tighter than the 12" & 15"
is the 15" able to reproduce much lower than the 10"?

on another note...
when building your own sub, is it best to use an amp such as the Dayton HSPA1000, or use a normal amp (NAD, ADCOM, whatever...) and use a crossover prior to the amp?

thanks,
Mike

[kexodusc]

Kex, just out of curiosity, if I were to go the Dayton route, any inexpensive & simple upgrades to their basic 12" kit that would help improve on their design? I was thinking about anything less involved than soldering, maybe better bracing, damping, and padding options?

I'm nost sold on this option yet, but the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

How loud do you play your subs? Bracing and damping are overdone too often IMO. The returns on damping affect on acoustic performance are very diminishing after 3/4" MDF (though front baffles benefit from 1.5 - 2 inch thickness). If you took 10 golden ears and told them to tell which 12" titanic kit used Acousta-stuff or Acoustic foam, which had shelf bracing, which used 1" MDF, etc, they couldn't.

There's no soldering in the Titanic I can remember...just spring clips and screwing in the hardware as I recall....been 2 years though.

Honestly the best thing money wise would be to not use the 12" Titanic woofer. It's a good woofer and has it's place. But it's really a home theater woofer that does music well, rather than a musical woofer that does HT well (being nitpicky here). The Reference woofers are far superior and cheaper.

If you have room, I would consider the 15" kit they have: now:http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-770
Swap the 15" woofer in that for the 15" Quatro...At under $300 you have a sealed sub that will hit the low 22 Hz or so (depending on your room of course, I get 20 Hz) and sound better than the 12" Titanic, and only (arguably) be second in maximum SPL and distortion at loud volumes. But at almost 1/2 the price buy 2 and brag to your friends, or throw in a BFD. This is similar to what replaced my PW-2200. Don't worry about the 240 watt thing - it's a class AB amp, not the goofy alphabet class sub amps like BASH and other make, and the woofer has higher sensitivity which means you don't need to spend as much money on a high wattage amp (hence the cost savings).

Or put something together yourself...You can order the cabinet, a 1000 watt sub amp that Doesn't require a cutout (it's a rack mount amp) and any driver you want. Stuffing is easy to find at a hardware store. All you may need is a someone with a plunge router who can cut a big circle. If you're really interested in a custom built cabinet, there are DIY-ers people in most cities that will build them for you, better and cheaper (sometimes for a few beer).

Speakers are complex, but building a sub is fairly straightforward with computer modeling these days. There's other kits out there, I'm just not familiar with them. THey may be better. The Titanics have been around awhile now.

Worst case, I would still argue that a 12" Titanic Kit, with a $80-$100 Behringer Feedback Destroyer for 3 or 4 parametric filters would sound significantly better than a $700 SVS sealed sub without full parametric EQ (those built in features just don't do as well). And you'd save $100 or more. Try buying some Acousta-Stuff, or rigid fiberglass (or even the pink stuff) to fill it instead of the foam which isn't that great.

[kexodusc]

how do the dayton titantic subs compare with themselves? (10" 12" & 15")
is the 10" tighter than the 12" & 15"
is the 15" able to reproduce much lower than the 10"?

on another note...
when building your own sub, is it best to use an amp such as the Dayton HSPA1000, or use a normal amp (NAD, ADCOM, whatever...) and use a crossover prior to the amp?

thanks,
Mike

IF anything the larger subs are tighter..the notion that smaller woofers are "tighter" than larger ones is false. I use to hold the same opinion, but in reality, it's other factors, not the physical size that contribute to the "tightness". The larger woofers will have better transient response all things equal. They move more air, they require less movement because they are bigger to move the same amount of air..that means the start/stop time and distance travelled is less, considerably less - hence "tighter".

The 10" Titanic I really can't recommend if HT is in the mix....it's a good bass reinforcer for stereo in small/mid rooms, and that's it. Not a great value really.

The 12" is still a good option...the 15" is better. The larger woofers do go significantly lower and play louder and cleaner than the smaller woofers.

I'd use a dedicated sub amp for sub duties - they're built with high-current/low impedance loads in mind, have the phase and xo adjustments, LFE in etc...And they're cheaper than even quality used power amps of comparable wattage. But if you have some lying around or can get some really cheap, nothing wrong with using an amp for sub duty if you're sure it can handle the load.

[kexodusc]

Didn't LJ buy a 12" Titanic Kit? Who are some of the other AR.com-ers with experience with these who could chime in and recommend them? I haven't seen "Sealed" around here in quite some time, but you can search him and his review of the 15" kit I believe.
There's a few others, can't remember who.

[GMichael]

Didn't LJ buy a 12" Titanic Kit? Who are some of the other AR.com-ers with experience with these who could chime in and recommend them? I haven't seen "Sealed" around here in quite some time, but you can search him and his review of the 15" kit I believe.
There's a few others, can't remember who.

LJ put the 10" together for his bedroom. He seemed to love it.

How about the 1000w amp mated with 2 of the 15" Reference woofers in a sealed box?

[kexodusc]

LJ put the 10" together for his bedroom. He seemed to love it.

How about the 1000w amp mated with 2 of the 15" Reference woofers in a sealed box?

Hmmm, could I suppose if they, but how would you wire them? Two woofers in parallel would present some very low, 1-2 ohm loads, in series would cut the power of the amp...I'd just build 2 separate subs with a 500 watt Bash or AB amp in each. Or use 4 woofers to in parallel, series configuration...yeah, then you'd boom just fine. You'd probably get better results. One 15" would be enough for most of us.

[GMichael]

Hmmm, could I suppose if they, but how would you wire them? Two woofers in parallel would present some very low, 1-2 ohm loads, in series would cut the power of the amp...I'd just build 2 separate subs with a 500 watt Bash or AB amp in each. Or use 4 woofers to in parallel, series configuration...yeah, then you'd boom just fine. You'd probably get better results. One 15" would be enough for most of us.

I was thinking of that last night. They would have to be in series. Maybe 2 of the 12".

Do you feel that the Bash 500w is better than the Dayton 500w? Or did you suggest the Bash because it cost less?

I think I'll just go with the kit when I finally pull the trigger. Wifee got tired of all the sawdust last time.

[kexodusc]

I prefer the Dayton 500 watt because it has a class AB output stage, more hi-fi oriented. It will handle sustained high current demands better. It is of higher quality throughout. It weighs 3 times as much (that matters to some people).

But I wouldn't hesitate to use a BASH amp for sub duty, it's fairly priced and will do the job for most normal sub applications. It's light and cheap, part of the reason they're so popular. Hi-fidelity is moot point since bass is more forgiving anyway.

[Rock789]

Are there other sub amps in the same price range as Dayton 500/1000 with the same'ish quality?
Any larger sub amps you would suggest Kex?
Also, I have read the specs on the Dayton 1000, but does it really do ~1000 watts @ 4ohm? (I'm comparing to perhaps a NAD or Adcom amp again...)

Thanks,
Mike

[kexodusc]

Are there other sub amps in the same price range as Dayton 500/1000 with the same'ish quality?
Any larger sub amps you would suggest Kex?
Also, I have read the specs on the Dayton 1000, but does it really do ~1000 watts @ 4ohm? (I'm comparing to perhaps a NAD or Adcom amp again...)

Thanks,
Mike

I don't really know where else to look for plate amps other than MCM electronics. But I'm sure there's other ones out there. Tons of 200-300 watt amps, few above 500. Yes, the the 1000 watt amp will do 1000 watts @ 4 ohms, and no doubt far better than a NAD or Adcom could. They handle low impedance speakers, but handling bass full-time is something else. You'd spend more than $400 on a 1000 watt bridged, 4 ohm NAD or Adcom that had all the connecton features. What's a 200 watt per channel @ 8 ohm NAD running for these days?

Really though, why 1000 watts? Bragging rights? You guys really use that in your homes? I hit ear-bleeding levels long before 1000 watts. A lot of DIY-ers I know do fine with 200-240 watts and efficient woofers or multiple subs. If you're pushing 1000 watts, I think you'd benefit more from buying a cheaper BASH amp, and second woofer to get the extra SPL.

[Woochifer]

The choice of sub depends greatly on your room. Generally speaking, the smaller the room, the more that the room acoustics will favor going with a sealed sub. SVS has a very good reputation, and I like that they've announced a sealed sub.

It would be interesting to see how the SVS stacks up with the Rocket because they seem like they're aimed at different markets. SVS is clearly marketing the SB12-Plus as a small design-friendly option, and not going into the "musicality" of its sealed design. Contrastly, Rocket is very much touting the "quality" of the sealed approach. Part of this might be because Rocket does not make any ported subs, whereas SVS's entire lineup outside of the SB12-Plus is ported.

As Kex said though, whatever option you go with, some form of room correction will make a huge difference. No matter how much you spend or how well a sub performs, in the end, it's the room acoustics that will dictate how the sub actually sounds.

[darth2222]

So Wooch what your saying is that if you have bad room accustics and one placement option a BFD will help regulate the sound. Will a mic that comes with the reciever do the same thing or is the BFD a much better way to go. I have a 16x 20 room with vaulted celings, left side is open. So i have only one corner to put the sub in. Where can you buy the BFD. By the way for that room size should i go with a more powerful sub. Im stuck between either the SVS 20-39 Pci Plus or the 20-39 PCI the plus has a 525 BASH amp other has 325 BASH amp. The one thing i liked about the Plus is the 3 ports and that you can block them to change the overall sound. Would this be important with my room accustics the way they are to give me more flexibility with the sub.

[Woochifer]

So Wooch what your saying is that if you have bad room accustics and one placement option a BFD will help regulate the sound. Will a mic that comes with the reciever do the same thing or is the BFD a much better way to go. I have a 16x 20 room with vaulted celings, left side is open. So i have only one corner to put the sub in. Where can you buy the BFD. By the way for that room size should i go with a more powerful sub. Im stuck between either the SVS 20-39 Pci Plus or the 20-39 PCI the plus has a 525 BASH amp other has 325 BASH amp. The one thing i liked about the Plus is the 3 ports and that you can block them to change the overall sound. Would this be important with my room accustics the way they are to give me more flexibility with the sub.

At least with the Hsu models, those port plugs work in conjunction with an EQ switch on the sub amp that adjusts the response curve to keep it as flat as possble. Basically, one profile maximizes the output, while the other maximizes the bass extension. Whenever you plug a port, you fundamentally alter the response curve, and without some form of EQ the curve will deviate from a flat response. Of course, some listeners like these deviations and some combinations might give you a more desirable sound depending on your room and placement, so you could always experiment with different port profiles.

With regard to the BFD vs. the receiver's auto calibration, that wold depend on

1) how far into the bass range the calibration goes, as some of these auto calibrations do not work with the low frequencies (Yamaha's YPAO only equalizes down into the mid-80 Hz range, although their newly announced midlevel models extend down to the mid-60 Hz range);
2) how problematic your room conditions actually are (multiple peaks are better addressed by the BFD because it allows for up to 12 parametric filters); and
3) the degree to which you want to customize the bass profile (the BFD allows you to store multiple EQ profiles so that you can, for example, use one profile for action movies, another one for hip-hop music, and yet another one for other types of listening).

In general, the BFD gives you more flexibility. But, it does require a learning curve. Here's the website that has excellent pointers that will get you up to speed.

http://bfdguide.ws/

You can buy the BFD from Musician's Friend for $100. IMO, one of the best bargains out there in audio for the amount of performance improvement that it delivers.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Feedback-Destroyer-Pro-DSP-1124P?sku=182467

With regard to the amount of amplification that you need, for your size room I think that the 325 watt amp would be more than enough, especially if you're using a ported sub, which is more efficient to begin with. Whether the extra $$$ is worth the features and potential flexibility is up to you. My room is 13'x18' with a partially open end, and I use a 250 watt sealed sub. This is plenty. But, it sounds like the Plus has more than just extra wattage if it also has three ports.