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nightflier
09-14-2006, 05:48 PM
In another thread, I've asked some options on remodeling my HT room. This will also give me the option of swapping / testing some speakers in my 2 channel setup. These are speakers that I've had in the garage for some time and want to bring back out to compare (I selected these originally because they have a small footprint and I have very little room). Here's what I will likely have on hand:

- Meadowlark Swifts
- Odyssey Nightingales
- Magnepan MMGs
- Ohm MicroWalsh (not burned in)
- Axiom M22Ti's (my baseline)

I will be running the speakers through a sub (an SVS 16-46 coming from my HT room) that can reach very low. In these speakers I'm looking for full range sound with better than average bass extension. I know that would seem to negate the need for a sub, but that's just the point: I've always had a hard time blending a sub with the Axioms (they are supposed to go down to 40Hz). So my reasoning is that deeper bass extension will make this easier. Am I correct in this assumption?

My goal is to come up with one speaker pair that I will keep as my reference system.

audio_dude
09-14-2006, 06:08 PM
wow, those were in your GARAGE?!?
wow, if i had a garage like that i'd be happy as a clam...

have you got the high-end cut-off set right? if you set it to 40 or 50 htz it should be alright...

also, you might just be using a sub/subs that just don't blend well with the aluminium drivers in the axiom?

BackinHi_Fi
09-17-2006, 05:11 PM
If I read you right you are running the speakers through your sub, I believe that this could be part of your problem, when you mix two crossover networks you are adding properties that where not intended during the design of the speaker;in this case your Axioms. You were not very specific as to what kind of things you have tried so far on your attempts at matching sub and speakers. I've encountered best results running my mains and subs separately then patiently experimenting with different cutoff points and levels and most importantly sub positioning sometimes you must even move some furniture around. After all proper matching and positioning speakers in the room is half of the battle. You may also experiment with running the sub out of phase, depending on your rooms properties and the sub unit's location it can bring out a dramatic difference in the ability to blend with your mains. Unfortunately many times good sound and decor completely clash with each other.

Bingo
09-18-2006, 12:56 AM
Apart from HT - for just two channel stereo - is harmonizing a subwoofer as difficult as it seems to me to be for HT? All I want is to have a low end to my Jas Audio Orsas and plan to do it with the up and coming SVS SB12 plus....just that ....not HT. Any advice might help...or, in my case, might confuse. Bingo

kexodusc
09-18-2006, 04:26 AM
Integrating a sub with main speakers has little to do with the bass extension capabilities of the speakers, and more to do with the rooms acoustics. You're getting peaks and dips in response in any room, as high as + or - 18 dB in many cases. This is what causes subwoofers to be "boomy" or sound uninspiring more than anything IMO...a small range of frequencies is 9 -18 dB louder than the reference level bass frequencies, and could be 20 or more dB louder than the dips caused by null points in the room...so when you're setting your subs level, you either have some frequencies way too high, or way too low... I have a + 12 dB peak in my 20 x 20 ish room around 28 Hz or so...which is around the transfer function frequencies of my room, then there's two 8 -12 dB dips that generate a broad dip starting at 40 and going to 65 Hz approximately exactly in the range my main speakers would ideally be crossed over to a subwoofer at.
I have a few bass traps that help, but ultimately it comes down to aggressive parametric EQ'ing to make things right.
I believe a room's acoustics are the largest factor leading many 2-channel stereo purists to a pre-mature conclusion that subs don't work with speakers for music.

nightflier
09-19-2006, 10:26 AM
If I read you right you are running the speakers through your sub, I believe that this could be part of your problem, ...You were not very specific as to what kind of things you have tried so far on your attempts at matching sub and speakers. ...Unfortunately many times good sound and decor completely clash with each other.

Back,

I currently don't have a sub hooked up to my 2-channel system. I have been auditioning the Nightingales but even these, and the Swifts before them, just could not give me the deeper bass I was looking for. I used to play organ in church so I actually have a large collection of organ works from Franck, Dupre, etc. I use these as reference points. I know some would say that's not really fair, but it's something I have an ear for and very few speaker systems can do this well.

A while back I had a very nice Monitor Audio sub between my M22s bookshelves and my amps. I was using the sub's cross-over network to filter out the bass. Theoretically this was supposed to be fairly easy, but it never sounded quite right. I tried this with several other speakers with equally aggravating results. Going directly to the speakers from the amps sounded much better, but I lost all my bass. I sort of gave up on the bookshelf idea and decided to try some tower speakers again. My problem was that I really don't have a lot of room so I was focusing on small footprint speakers. I alsmost feel like I'll have to given up on them too.

Over the years my high frequency hearing has diminished a lot, so you might say that I'm biassed a bit towards the low end. But I still enjoy my music and I'm still looking for a decent full-range speaker that doesn't fill the whole room. Many new speakers have narrow front baffles, but then they are a foot and a half deep, not to mention that you need another 2-3 feet behind them. In SoCal, that's asking a lot. I have friends who do have the space (and the budgets, apparently), but I can't live at their houses...

topspeed
09-19-2006, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure if I'm following this thread right or not, so excuse me if I'm completely off my rocker.

I'd run your mains full range directly off your amp. The x-over in the sub sucks...stop using it. Run your sub off the pre-amp with a Y-splitter and then use the sub's x-over to adjust its ceiling. There are really no absolutes in blending subs with mains because, as Kex and Back rightly noted, the room is going to have a huge effect. I've always found a good starting point would be 10hz above whatever your mains are rated to when they are down more than 3dB. For example, if your Swifts are rated to 45hz (-3dB) and 40 (-6dB), you might try crossing your sub over at 50-55hz and start tinkering from there. This method is certainly not etched in stone, but at least it gives you a reasonable starting point.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

nightflier
09-20-2006, 12:37 PM
Top,

Let me get this straight, you're suggesting that I use a Y-splitter to split the signal to my amps as well as my sub?

topspeed
09-20-2006, 02:36 PM
Bingo!

The signal goes both to the amp and to the powered sub. This way, there is no degradation of signal by routing it through the sub's suspect crossover before it hits the mains. Easy to do and you'll enjoy far better sound.

Grandpaw
09-20-2006, 05:37 PM
Bingo!

The signal goes both to the amp and to the powered sub. This way, there is no degradation of signal by routing it through the sub's suspect crossover before it hits the mains. Easy to do and you'll enjoy far better sound.

I have been asking questions and I am learning about this same subject so go easy on me.

I was told to go from the pre outs of my amp to the line in of the sub and then from the line out of the sub back to the main in of the amp. This will allow the signal to go to the sub first and the sub would remove what it was going to play and the remainder of the frequency's would then be sent to the main in terminals on the amp. This would allow the powered sub for the lower frequency's and the amp would provide the power for the rest of the signal going to the main speakers.

This would put only the signal that each speaker needed to play going to where it needed to go. Each speaker would have all the power going to it to produce only the frequency's that speaker was concentrating on.

The articles that I have read say to send only the signal to each speaker that you want it to play. Seems like the way you are saying to hook it up would send everything to the mains causing them to handle the lower end that would be better suited going only to the sub.

I am trying to learn all I can about this and don't understand your train of thought. Why would you send something to the mains that the sub would do a better job playing. Help me to understand your method, Jeff

hermanv
09-20-2006, 06:03 PM
nightflier:
Is the home theater sound being processed by a multi-channel receiver which you then bypass for 2 channel?

I ask because most home theater receivers have better bass management than trying to mix/match mains and subs from different manufactureres. What I mean is that I suspect that the crossover management circuit in the sub is below par and the receivers will be better. Since you don't want to use the one in the sub (except the high price spread) you are forced to an alternative solution. (Besides, using the one in the sub means you can't bypass it for two channel)

The problem with the Y adapter scheme (unless I misunderstand) is that the upper slope of the sub and the lower slope of the mains need to match (for phase) for them to sum correctly in the crossover area. If the mains have a first order filter and the sub has a 2nd or 3rd order this won't work unless you are very lucky. The sum of the two speakers at the crossover frequency is an algebraic sum, the phase at each frequency both at the crossover and for maybe an octave each side must be right for it to all work.

It is damn hard to do this by ear, even with equipment it's hard because of the aforementioned room problems. By buying a matched system this has been done for you by the designer, by using bass management in the receiver this has a better chance because the receiver crossover will do the phase correctly. This is one very good reason to stay away from frequency limits of either the sub or the mains, at around 50 to 100 Hz crossover in the receiver, either the mains or the sub is more likely to be phase flat.

Good luck, this is not a trivial task. Some have faked it and may think they've gotten away with it, a good frequency response program would most likely tell them they didn't.

basite
09-21-2006, 08:44 AM
nice garage, where do you live?? :D

topspeed
09-21-2006, 09:00 AM
I was told to go from the pre outs of my amp to the line in of the sub and then from the line out of the sub back to the main in of the amp. This will allow the signal to go to the sub first and the sub would remove what it was going to play and the remainder of the frequency's would then be sent to the main in terminals on the amp. This would allow the powered sub for the lower frequency's and the amp would provide the power for the rest of the signal going to the main speakers.To be clear, the method I described is for a two channel separates based rigs. If one has an AVR, certainly you're better off using the line level inputs and on board bass management of the avr. My point is you should avoid speaker level inputs to the sub which then go to the mains.



The articles that I have read say to send only the signal to each speaker that you want it to play. Seems like the way you are saying to hook it up would send everything to the mains causing them to handle the lower end that would be better suited going only to the sub. This is very case specific. I run full range mains and like as much of my music coming from the same point source as possible. If you run monitors, naturally you would do it differently. Besides, most floorstanders these days aren't really "full range" per se, at least by the classic definition of 20hz-20khz response. Indeed, mine are only rated to 40hz on axis.

I believe subs are meant to augment, not replace. Therefore, I'll run my mains full range and then use the sub to fill in what they cannot. Others feel differently, which is fine. BTW, it should be noted that I'm not a "bass hound" by any measure and in fact turn off my sub altogether when listening critically in 2 channel.



I am trying to learn all I can about this and don't understand your train of thought. Why would you send something to the mains that the sub would do a better job playing. Help me to understand your method, JeffIt's simply a matter of philosophy. I, for one, do not believe the sub should replace your mains. I bought my mains because I like the way they reproduce music. To not give them their full measure by clipping the signal before it ever reaches them seems somewhat hypocritical. A sub is, by its very definition, for subsonic frequencies. Nothing more.

Trust me, opinions vary on this subject. Mine is but one. I'm sure there are plenty on this board that feel differently. Hey, as long as you enjoy the music I say have at it! :)

nightflier
09-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Hermanv,

I was referring to a 2-channel system only. My 2 channel setup is composed of a preamp and two monoblock amps. The preamp has two outputs, but one of these is ballanced, and my amps aren't. Using an RCA splitter seems to be inviting more trouble, not to mention that I'm using very nice interconnects and I doubt the splitter will be of the same quality. When I've had a sub in the system, I've always used the speaker level inputs on the sub and then onto the speakers so that the sub could handle the cross-over. I consider the SVS sub to have fairly good circuitry to do this properly.

That said, I don't know if the Axioms have a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd order crossover network, and this may be where the difficulty in matching with the sub comes from.

Basite,

I live right next to the Smith & Wesson factory down the street from the police K-9 training compound. Why do you ask?

Grandpaw
09-21-2006, 11:08 AM
Topspeed, thanks for taking the time to answer.

The amp my friend is using is a NADC370 two channel amp. He ordered the new SVS SB 12-plus to be shipped in the next several weeks. After contacting SVS and asking about the hookup this is what he recieved back from one of the owners of SVS.

Quote
There are 3 ways that you can connect the sub in your situation. The first method and the one that we recommend is to run RCA cables from the left and right PRE OUT 1 outputs of the C370 to the left and right inputs on the SB12-Plus and then run RCA cables from the SB12-Plus outputs to the left and right MAIN IN inputs on the C370. With this connection method the SB12-Plus will be playing the bass and removing the information below 80hz from the signal sent to the main speakers (allowing them to play the rest of the frequency range more effortlessly).

This sounds to me like this would work fairly well. As I mentioned I am trying to learn as much as I can about the best way to hook up music and ht systems. I have read several explinations of why on my HT system I should set all speakers to small to take the load off the mains and let the sub that is designed to handel just the bass do that job. As he mentions this gives more power to the mains to handel what they are better suited for.

I have tried both ways and with my HT system set to all small and let the sub do the lower end it seems to be much clearer to me. Maybe it just depends on the speakers you are using as to which would work better. My mains go down to 35 + or - 2db. I would think that is fairly good but they still sound better letting the sub do the work.

Thanks again for the explination. I will continue reading and asking questions to learn more as time goes on, Jeff

hermanv
09-21-2006, 11:52 AM
nightflier:

I have a little experience in designing crossovers, like many things its easy at some levels, but quite difficult to do a really good job.

Most reviews I have read caution against the difficulty of using a sub to extend the low frequency response of a two channel system. If a matching design from the same manufactureer isn't used, the likelyhood of this working out well is small.

Just getting an ordinary three way system that has good bass extension to work in an average size room is a far larger task than it seems. The reviews often mention the desireablity of using two subs to maintain good stereo, and even then a smooth transistion for bass frequencies is very difficult to pull off because of sub-woofer placement. Yes, I know, that bass notes aren't supposed to be directional, but that depends a great deal on both frequency and room size. In theory the bass harmonics are what the ear uses for localizing the sound source, but at least subjectively the speakers I have that go low certainly appear to exhibit a high degree of bass directionality.

So without some real switching capabilities in the upstream equipment, mixing HT and 2 channel is very difficult. So is adding basss extension to a 2 channel system with limited response from the main speakers. All this is probably fine for pop music, its rarely recorded in a real spatial environment since it's all done with a mixing console. In this case, there is no definition of accurate imaging anyway, but for jazz, symphony or acoustic music, IHMO adding a sub is unlikely to be satisfying.

It is certainly harmless to try it, after all only your judgement of the results matter.

topspeed
09-21-2006, 04:12 PM
Using an RCA splitter seems to be inviting more trouble, not to mention that I'm using very nice interconnects and I doubt the splitter will be of the same quality. I can appreciate that. I utilized a Monster Cable splitter to Harmonic Tech IC's. They aren't Valhalla's, but they are what I consider good, sturdy interconnects. The collars are so tight you could clamp them on a lump of coal and end up with a diamond. Also, keep in mind that by running speaker level, you are making the speaker cable runs much longer than otherwise. Which do you think has a better chance of sound degration, a splitter on the IC's or possible RF interference and measurable loss of signal due to the length of the speaker cable run? I'm not arguing your preference, I'm merely pointing out that neither is perfect.


I have tried both ways and with my HT system set to all small and let the sub do the lower end it seems to be much clearer to me. Maybe it just depends on the speakers you are using as to which would work better. My mains go down to 35 + or - 2db. I would think that is fairly good but they still sound better letting the sub do the work.
Without question, whatever sounds better to you is the way to go. Maybe you're getting a cleaner sound because you are lessening the load on the amp by crossing your mains over so high? Are they hard to drive? Is the amp current-challenged? There are any number of reasons why, including psychosomatic influences. The brain is a funny thing. Still, if it sounds better you crossing them over at 120, so be it. Just keep in mind that your sub is now playing well into the realm of directivity. IOW, you can tell where it is. Whether or not this is important to you depends on your preferences and where the little bugger is located.

hermanv
09-21-2006, 04:48 PM
I can appreciate that. I utilized a Monster Cable splitter to Harmonic Tech IC's. They aren't Valhalla's, but they are what I consider good, sturdy interconnects. The collars are so tight you could clamp them on a lump of coal and end up with a diamond. ....edit...I stopped using the locking RCAs. I found that they locked so tight that they neatly removed the very thin gold plating from the chassis mount RCAs when they are disconnected. After a few cleaning cycles, I had this truly awful sound, apparently the remaining plating, a nickel underplate, did not agree with the plating on my RCA interconnects.

I don't like RCA connector much, but it's usually the inner pin that causes the problem. The outer tulip like blades normally do a great job of making contact without the need for additional clamping force.

Once alerted to this, I checked my locking banannas on my speaker cables, yep, inner plating on the female bananna was badly damaged (I now use only spade lugs).

BackinHi_Fi
09-21-2006, 07:09 PM
This sounds to me like this would work fairly well. As I mentioned I am trying to learn as much as I can about the best way to hook up music and ht systems. I have read several explinations of why on my HT system I should set all speakers to small to take the load off the mains and let the sub that is designed to handel just the bass do that job. As he mentions this gives more power to the mains to handel what they are better suited for.

I have tried both ways and with my HT system set to all small and let the sub do the lower end it seems to be much clearer to me. Maybe it just depends on the speakers you are using as to which would work better. My mains go down to 35 + or - 2db. I would think that is fairly good but they still sound better letting the sub do the work.

Thanks again for the explination. I will continue reading and asking questions to learn more as time goes on, JeffWhen you attempt to blend a sub with a set full range speakers you must never forget that those speakers were designed to provide the fullest sound within the capabilities of size, components other physical properties all on their own. Unless you are speaking of a satellite system that is strictly designed to work together. When a sub is thrown in to the mix it should be to complement and assist and not a substitution. The aim should be that the sub is subtly picking up the slack down where the mains are less capable, this is called a proper rollover. Otherwise you will end up over accentuating.

A factor that is best if kept in mind during adjustments is that the low and ultra lows are meant to be unidirectional, so if you can point to the unit were they come from then as a rule of thumb it it is overtaking the sound. Remember also that when you tweak for H/T and plain 2 channel it is for fairly different applications. With H/T you try to achieve dramatic sound and results to match the effects of the movie. With music the ideal result is for the equipment to disappear and to have only music left.

So if you are setting a multipurpose system, once you determine the optimal location of the sub unit within your room then proceed to set your crossover point neither as high or as low as it can go but at a point that slightly rolls over with your mains. Then it is a matter of finding appropriate vol levels for the sub during the reproduction of music and another one for your movies. Then you can mark them somehow so you can change back and forth with ease. That way you wont have to endure a sound level that is too thin for your movies or one that is too thick for your music.

nightflier
09-22-2006, 08:40 AM
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't placing two high-cross-over subs under a pair of quality bookshelves be sort of like a poor man's high-end speaker? Kind of like the Wilson Audio or Verity speakers, provided you could couple them properly physically as well as auraly?

kexodusc
09-22-2006, 11:31 AM
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't placing two high-cross-over subs under a pair of quality bookshelves be sort of like a poor man's high-end speaker? Kind of like the Wilson Audio or Verity speakers, provided you could couple them properly physically as well as auraly?

Uhhh...sure, I think that's fair to say. Why not? It isn't easy to properly integrate a sub, but the benefits are worthwhile. If you're adding more bass, or making weak bass better, that can't be a bad thing.

Dusty Chalk
09-22-2006, 11:41 AM
Subs aren't designed to produce directional audio, so you have to worry about phase and things.

Integrating 2 subs is about 10 times as hard as integrating one, because you have to worry about the other. There could be troublesome regions where the bass from both cancel each other out and so on -- and that includes reflections off of walls.

I tried that (in the following system: Spendor S3/5, Sunfire True Sub Jr., Musical Fidelity A3^CR pre and power), and I ended up only needing one sub, despite how not low the Spendors went.

Short answer: I wouldn't recommend it.

nightflier
09-29-2006, 04:13 PM
Some preliminary results I was a bit surprised to find (all tested on their own, w/o the sub, so far):

- The Nightingales do not have good bass extension, despite the large cabinet volume and the down-firing ports. The bass is very tight, but not very deep. I would almost suggest that the specs on the Odyssey site are not accurate. I was really hoping they would blow the Axioms away, but they didn't. They were more airy and seemed more transparent (I think that's the term: when they seem to not be there, not as localized), but the midrange on down to the bass was better integrated on the Axioms.

- The Meadowlarks have better bass but lack the midrange and trebble of the Nightingales. They also have what I would call mushy imaging: it's there, but not very acurate. That said, of the two, I'm leaning towards the Meadowlarks. For small quartets (Jazz, Classical), they are hard to beat. Only with orchestral works (Mahler, Hofvannes) do they really begin to show their limitations. The Axioms have better imaging, trebble, and while they have less bass, what the Axioms do have is tighter. Interestingly, when playing some Massive Attack, the Meadowlarks were really trying with the 6" woofers bellowing wildly, but they did not break up even at high volumes: that was very impressive.

- Maggies are a mixed bag. I love the fact that I can stash them in the closet when I need the space and I'm almost considering hanging them up on the wall when not in use. The Sound, while certainly lively and dynamic, doesn't really give me the wow factor everyone was talking about. They also don't handle high frequencies as well as I expected (they sound rolled off), and of course the bass is non-existent. This is a big problem for me. The Axioms had better bass, equal midrange, and better (or I should say, more controlled) trebble. On Bach's Brandenburg Concerto, the clarinet sounded much "higher" and ethereal on the Axioms than on the Maggies.

- Ohms aren't ready yet. I should really get crackin on these because I'm running out of time to be able to return them. Right now they are edgy and maybe it's the lack of furniture in the room, but they are very bright. Not much bass either. Again, I have maybe 20-30 hours on them, so this is probably not fair to them.

Again these are preliminary findings, and all w/o sub, so I have a lot more work to do. But I just wanted to set the stage for the weekend. I've been doing a lot of thinking about my SVS cylinder sub and I really expect it to do well on music. On another thread, there was some discussion on how it is not as tight, but I expect that the sub will be just fine. It blew me away several years ago when I bought it, so let's see if that's still the case.

hermanv
09-29-2006, 07:29 PM
nightflier:

Random thoughts:

All the speakers you tested seemed wanting in the bass. Is there a possibility there is a placement or room problem?

Too bright a room can also sound bass shy, by taming the highs, volume can be turned up resulting in an apparent bass increase.

Is the upstream equipment deficient in bass or are the speaker cables insufficient in gauge?

Could the two speakers be out of phase?

nightflier
09-30-2006, 05:20 PM
nightflier:Random thoughts:All the speakers you tested seemed wanting in the bass. Is there a possibility there is a placement or room problem? Too bright a room can also sound bass shy, by taming the highs, volume can be turned up resulting in an apparent bass increase. Is the upstream equipment deficient in bass or are the speaker cables insufficient in gauge? Could the two speakers be out of phase?

All good questions, but I think I have the bases covered. I'm using Audioquest 4tc speaker cables, not fantastic, but they have enough girth, I think. I previously had a BK amp/preamp setup with Dynaudio speakers and the bass was full and rich, certainly not lean. The room is a bit bright, I admit, with wood floors, but I have a rug in the middle, and the walls all have something on them. My current equipment is pretty good, so I don't think that's the case, either. I'll do some more testing this weekend and know more...

jack201
10-06-2006, 09:08 AM
The ideal integration between L+R and bass augmentation would be to have not one but two subs. This is the easiest way to energize the room evenly thus avoiding the dips which are most probably nodal in nature. I agree that L+R should be run in its full range and that the subs should catch the roll off. If the subs have decent parametric equalizers then the job should be easier in that the Q and the shelf or knee can be used to set the LF rise as closely as possible with the same slope as the L+R's predesigned roll off.

Some times the discontinuity arises from the differing sonic characters of the main power amplifiers and that of the plate amps built into the subwoofers. IME this is ameliorated by using the main poweramps essentially as the driver stage of the plate amps on the subs. This is accomplished simply by choosing to employ the high level inputs on the subwoofers.

If the subwoofer parametrics are not up to snuff, professional active electronic crossover networks like those by Rane or Bheringer are fairly cheap and can easily be inserted in the chain between pre-amp and sub via either Pre-out 2 , sometimes Tape/Monitor Out or worse comes to worse the use of Y-splitters.

Bass traps do just that. They trap bass. They should be used to smoothen out bass response when there is an excess. In this case my simplistic mind tells me that the addition of another sub will come much cheaper than authentic ASC traps and will fall in the ballpark of a quality DIY job anyway.

As for the subs themselves I recommend that in general subs using acoustic suspension (sealed) be used. They may not be as quick as reflex loaded subs but are, again generally, more tuneful.

I think you will find that this approach will best emulate the sound of double stacked systems (Watt Puppies, VR-4xs, etc) that are really just monitors set on PASSIVE subs.

In closing, I believe you will also find that with two subs your level settings will be low enough for each that the usual resonance from materials in the subs enclosure and adjacent boundaries will become unobtrusive and help contribute to a more coherent soundscape.

Good Luck and Happy Night Flying!

nightflier
10-06-2006, 11:07 AM
Jack,

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll be using a single SVS cylinder sub for now (space issue), but if I do go with two subs, I would probably replace it with a pair of PartExpress subs. I've heard so many good reviews of them, that for the money, it seems the logical choice.

I'm still playing around with the speakers (sans sub) and will have more to say about them when I get more down on paper about them.