Remodeling with on or near wall speakers

[nightflier]

I've tried several things over the years, but this past weekend my son knocked one of my Axiom M22Ti speakers off the stand and so it's really time I get serious about the space issues in my HT room. What I have always liked about my current Axioms is that they are a bit on the bright side so they really bring out the midrange and the trebble in movie soundtracks. I am also quite happy with the QS4's amazing surround capabilities, although friends have commented that it's not very accurate when arrows / bullets / planes are wizzing by. The setup, though is becoming unmanageable: cables on the floor, L&Rs on spiked stands on tiles to protect the floor, and that cylinder sub in the corner are just not conducive to family life. I've resigned to have my 2 channel system in another room be my tweaker / better system for now. So I have a few questions:

- I'm looking for speakers that have that punch & clarity (some would call it brightness) that don't take up much room on the floor. Speakers I have in mind are: ML Script/Fresco, Bohlender R17/18, Von Schweikert VSX, or Vienna Webern/Schonberg. Since they can be right up against the wall and because I can pick them up at the local Magnolia down the street today, I'm leaning to the Viennas. I've always liked their higher end stuff anyhow. But will they provide that crisp sound sound on par with the Axioms that I've grown to like?

- How will ML/Bohl./VS/Vienna surrounds compare to the quad-polar Axioms? Obviously they are different speakers, but will I be gaining much directionality in the other brands?

- The sub needs to be smaller. I love the 16Hz I can get out of the SVS cylinder, but frankly I need something smaller. I'm considering Outlaw & SVS's box subs. Since I own these brands already, I'm sort of partial to them. Any thoughts?

[Dusty Chalk]

Thought #1 -- you don't need 16Hz. 22 will do in most cases. Check out Sunfire, depending on the size of the room, although I'll second your inclination towards SVS, as I'm thinking of getting one of those for myself.

Thought #2 -- look at Dali -- they have a slew of choices, including on-wall and/or slender profile/footprint speakers.

Although, those Bohlender's look nice.

[hermanv]

The better stores now sell speakers that mount inside the wall (between the studs) these used to be junk but fairly good ones are now available. Like any decent speaker they aren't cheap.

A friend used to make a speaker called the "Wallspeaker" . It was a long thin cabinet that fit betwen the studs on vibration isolators. You rip down the gypsum board mount his three way and put the gypsum board back. All three drivers and the woofer ports were arranged to fire out a 9" X 14" hole which could be covered with a silk painting making the speaker totally invisible. The drivers were mounted on a small pedestal so as to be flush with the outer gypsum surface, they sounded great.

[kexodusc]

For small speakers with tremendous sound quality (and stunning looks to boot!) look no further than Totem Acoustics.
You looking for foorstanders or standmounts?

For a sub, the Dayton, 12" Titanic sealed kit is a steal, and a fabulous performer. It's stupid easy to assemble (all their kits are, take your pick) and will rival a lot of much costlier subs.
I built the 12" Titanic Kit for mom and dad and compared it to my Paradigm PW-2200...It was much better all around, and had a much stronger, cabinet. I ended up unloading the Paradigm and built my own Dayton sub shortly after.

[nightflier]

Herman,

I considered in-walls, but there are two problems with them: They can't really be repositioned or redirected (I know some have small adjustments, but that may not be enough), and the second problem is that when I move I want to take them with me. i.e. I don't want to make them part of the house. Even if I go with on-walls, then I'd still have the option of turning the speakers.

Kex,

I've read so many positive posts about the Dayton sub, but a few things bother me. First of all, the partsexpress.com site has almost no specs on this sub, second, there is really only one finish, and third, it's a sealed sub - fine for music, but can it reach down deep. My family is hooked on scary and adventure films so the SVS will be the standard against which we will be measuring the new sub. I'm not sold on them, but I'm also willing to spend a bit more there to really get a decent sub. How about their 15" sub. What are the specs on that one?

Dusty,

I know that 16Hz may seem overkill, but the U571, Kazad Dum, and the Abyss never sounded so deep. Most basic subs will do 25Hz, and that's not quite enough. Or am I asking for too much?

I guess what I'm saying is if I'm going to rewire and replace (a good month's worth of work), then I'm also looking for an upgrade. I just don't know if on-wall/near-wall speakers will do it and if I can get a decent box sub to match.

[Dusty Chalk]

It's not asking too much if you can get it.

But you should know that most movies like that don't really go down that low -- most of that material is midbass. Yes, you need a sub to convey even midbass with power, so don't necessarily take my statement as an absolute, and don't necessarily take it as me trying to dissuade you from 16Hz. By all means, go for it! I'm just trying to make sure you have enough information to make an intelligent decision. I used to seek those last few Hz, but once I heard the Sunfire (in my case, the Jr., which only goes down to 25, I think), I realized I didn't need to go much lower.

[hermanv]

Dusty:
True enough many cheaper subs barely make 30 Hz and can sound OK. Most movie people don't get it anyway, besides what you hear are just effects made on an electronic box.

Nightflier:
I understand about taking it with you if you move. Most mainstream speakers are designed to be placed well into the room, I have seen ads for speakers designed to be put in corners or hard against the wall. Mabye a search for bass re-enforcement speakers will get you somewhere.

[Dusty Chalk]

There's also that whole "corner loaded" school of thought (if you want another search term).

[kexodusc]

Herman,

I considered in-walls, but there are two problems with them: They can't really be repositioned or redirected (I know some have small adjustments, but that may not be enough), and the second problem is that when I move I want to take them with me. i.e. I don't want to make them part of the house. Even if I go with on-walls, then I'd still have the option of turning the speakers.

Kex,

I've read so many positive posts about the Dayton sub, but a few things bother me. First of all, the partsexpress.com site has almost no specs on this sub, second, there is really only one finish, and third, it's a sealed sub - fine for music, but can it reach down deep. My family is hooked on scary and adventure films so the SVS will be the standard against which we will be measuring the new sub. I'm not sold on them, but I'm also willing to spend a bit more there to really get a decent sub. How about their 15" sub. What are the specs on that one?

Ha ha...yeah I suppose most people on the site who read about the Titanic Kits can just figure out the specs themselves.
The 12" will have output down to 25 Hz and will boom away...you could go a bit lower with the EQ onboard 22 Hz or so...to be honest, I doubt you'll notice the diffence. I barely notice the difference between 19 Hz and 26Hz on my 2 subs unless I'm running a frequency sweep...earthquakes still rumble.

The 15" will play a few Hz lower and could play below 20Hz, but ultimately your room's acoustics will affect the extension...My 15" Quatro woofer reaches below 20 Hz, and is not as home theater friendly as the Titanic.
If you really want I can crunch some numbers tomorrow for you...but you're not going to learn much from the specs other than that the Titanics love power and can play extremely loud.

[RoyY51]

that I would not repeat myself again (?) by recommending the Outlaw LFM-1...so I won't. On the other hand...

[nightflier]

Roy,

I'm a big fan of Outlaw. I've owned their M200 monoblocks, a 2-channel amp (back when they still had them), the ICBM, and I now own Outlaw seperates in my HT. The new subs do get good reviews, so they are definitely on the list.

Regarding speakers, I'm planning a trip down to Von Schweikert soon. I am also leaning away from the Bohlender speakers; while I haven't heard them, I'm not sure if they will meet my needs. If only the Magnepan on-walls had better bass, I'd add them to the list (if I have to add a pair of subs underneath each front speaker, doesn't that defeat the purpose of on-wall convenience?) Vienna & ML are still possibilities although the Fresco line seems a little lean.

To tell you the truth, I would love to find a pair of on-wall or near-wall speakers that could compare as full-range speakers. So far the only one that comes close is the Vienna Schonbergs, but they won't let me take them home to audition...

[hermanv]

nightfler;

I remember Stereophile reviewing a pair of speakers that were designed for placement hard against the wall. It was within the last 2 (maybe 3) years. Naturally I don't recall the brand. Perhaps an email to the magazine might get you somewhere.