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Groundbeef
09-08-2006, 10:20 AM
For those who are going to get the PS3 for Blu-Ray, don't forget to get the cable. Thats right folks; after you fork out your $599 for the unit (the only unit that has HDMI outs) you will then need to fork out more cash for the HDMI cable. Isn't that a nice touch. At least with the premium 360 you got the nice cables included.

Oh well....

heres the link
http://www.ps3news.ca/09042006/20/hdmi_cable_for_599_ps3_not_included

paul_pci
09-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Why don't you drop the attitude.

Groundbeef
09-08-2006, 11:50 AM
Ok, your right. I'll put a happy spin on it for you. Sony has annouced to the joy and elation to gamers everywhere that the next generation game console PS3 will not be shipping with the HDMI cable. This is done as a cost cutting measure so that players can now more easily afford to purchase the cable aftermarket. Sony has also quietly mentioned that gamers actually will NOT need the HDMI cable because games will not be played at 1080p resolution.

Many gamers in the community are overjoyed at this announcement, and message boards are flooded with complimentary statements aimed at Sony. Coupled with the annoucment that shipements of consoles will be 50% of previously stated levels it is easy to see why.

Wow, I feel so much better. And your right of course. I should be more upbeat.
Thanks for the tip... got anymore?

JeffKnob
09-08-2006, 12:51 PM
For those who are going to get the PS3 for Blu-Ray, don't forget to get the cable. Thats right folks; after you fork out your $599 for the unit (the only unit that has HDMI outs) you will then need to fork out more cash for the HDMI cable. Isn't that a nice touch. At least with the premium 360 you got the nice cables included.

Oh well....

heres the link
http://www.ps3news.ca/09042006/20/hdmi_cable_for_599_ps3_not_included

What's the big deal? You can get an HDMI cable from monoprice.com for less than $10 shipped.

Groundbeef
09-08-2006, 01:02 PM
Frankly, you are correct. It really isn't that big of a deal. However, many systems are going to be bought at Big Box Retailers (IE BB, CC, etc). Don't think for a second that the salesperson isn't going to put on the full court press for the Monster HDMI for $60 "Look folks, its got gold ends.....and magic copper wires that line up the signal, just like God intended!"

This is where Sony I think dropped the ball. As you stated, anyone with a little careful shopping can get a cable for $10.00. So why put out the perception that you are nickle and diming your customer for $10.00. Just include a base cable and call it a day.

Its just a perception issue. It would be like buying a car, and having to pay the dealership to inflate the tires. "Yeah, the H2 hummer comes with 22" rims and nice wheels. And we only charge $10.00 to fill the included tires with air."

Sounds idiotic? So does charging $599 and not including a $10.00 cable.

JeffKnob
09-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Frankly, you are correct. It really isn't that big of a deal. However, many systems are going to be bought at Big Box Retailers (IE BB, CC, etc). Don't think for a second that the salesperson isn't going to put on the full court press for the Monster HDMI for $60 "Look folks, its got gold ends.....and magic copper wires that line up the signal, just like God intended!"

This is where Sony I think dropped the ball. As you stated, anyone with a little careful shopping can get a cable for $10.00. So why put out the perception that you are nickle and diming your customer for $10.00. Just include a base cable and call it a day.

Its just a perception issue. It would be like buying a car, and having to pay the dealership to inflate the tires. "Yeah, the H2 hummer comes with 22" rims and nice wheels. And we only charge $10.00 to fill the included tires with air."

Sounds idiotic? So does charging $599 and not including a $10.00 cable.

I see your point. I think what is more idiotic is that they are charging $599 in the first place. I am sure it will be a nice system but that is a lot to spend when the competition is cheaper and just as good, if not better.

Groundbeef
09-25-2006, 04:57 PM
Wait folks, the hits just keep coming.

As if Sony hasn't stepped on their own dork enough lately, word on the street is that the $600 or $500 not only DONT come with the HDMI cable, they DONT come with composite cables either.

YES, you get the crappy component cables....you know RED, WHITE, YELLOW. Whoooo talk about HD quaility there. I'm suprised they didn't throw in a RF switch for those still running on old TV's.

At least the $400 360 came with composite cables standard.

Yea SONY, you know how to treat your customers right....

bobsticks
09-25-2006, 05:17 PM
uumm, hey GB, I think you got it reversed, eh? Composite cables are the crappy red, white, and yellow ones. Component cables are the red, blue, and green video chords...

audio_dude
09-25-2006, 05:25 PM
oh, yet another hit against sony, they have stated that the games will be $80-$90, some even hitting $100, and even with all the cost cutting they're still losing money, so get ready to spend $1500 on a PS3 with an extra controller, some games and an HDMI cable...

Woochifer
09-25-2006, 06:27 PM
Wait folks, the hits just keep coming.

As if Sony hasn't stepped on their own dork enough lately, word on the street is that the $600 or $500 not only DONT come with the HDMI cable, they DONT come with composite cables either.

YES, you get the crappy component cables....you know RED, WHITE, YELLOW. Whoooo talk about HD quaility there. I'm suprised they didn't throw in a RF switch for those still running on old TV's.

At least the $400 360 came with composite cables standard.

Yea SONY, you know how to treat your customers right....

"word on the street" = unsubstantiated rumor/inneuendo

So, if Microsoft treats its customers so well, why didn't they include a Toslink cable for the audio signals? Yeah, we're really talking audio quality here with some plastic two-channel analog OEM cable!

Since an HDMI connection can output video and audio signals onto one cable rather than separate video and audio cables, the end cost would be pretty much the same.

Groundbeef
09-25-2006, 11:48 PM
uumm, hey GB, I think you got it reversed, eh? Composite cables are the crappy red, white, and yellow ones. Component cables are the red, blue, and green video chords...


Your right of course. I thought about it as I was typing, and got them reversed. Sorry bout that. It does seem funny though that they are only giving you the crappy cables.

bobsticks
09-26-2006, 01:02 AM
I do agree with the point at which you were aiming. Curious, to say the least, that a product portraying itself as the new purveyor of the most modern graphics capability would chose to only include the lowest possible method of transfer.

Groundbeef
09-26-2006, 05:48 AM
"word on the street" = unsubstantiated rumor/inneuendo

So, if Microsoft treats its customers so well, why didn't they include a Toslink cable for the audio signals? Yeah, we're really talking audio quality here with some plastic two-channel analog OEM cable!

Since an HDMI connection can output video and audio signals onto one cable rather than separate video and audio cables, the end cost would be pretty much the same.

http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/specs.html

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html

Both are reputable sources. In fact, if you look at the SONY page at the ** on the bottom, it says that it doesn't come with ANY HD cables, as the can be purchased separately.

As far as MS is concerned when you purchase the $400 model the component cables ARE included. MS matches the penny pinching Sony by not including the toslink cable. But that is a moot point as both systems support, but do not include cables for digital audio.

So I guess the score is MS 1, Sony 0, for high quality video cables without needing additional purchase.

Woochifer
09-26-2006, 03:47 PM
http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/specs.html

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157113.html

Both are reputable sources. In fact, if you look at the SONY page at the ** on the bottom, it says that it doesn't come with ANY HD cables, as the can be purchased separately.

As far as MS is concerned when you purchase the $400 model the component cables ARE included. MS matches the penny pinching Sony by not including the toslink cable. But that is a moot point as both systems support, but do not include cables for digital audio.

So I guess the score is MS 1, Sony 0, for high quality video cables without needing additional purchase.

Right, and if you want high quality video AND audio, BOTH systems require additional purchase. Difference being that HDMI 1.3 also supports 7.1 Dolby Digital Plus, 1080p, 48-bit color, and the lossless Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and 5.1 PCM audio formats. The Toslink connection limits you to the same 2.0 PCM, and compressed DD and DTS audio formats that come with DVD.

Groundbeef
09-26-2006, 04:48 PM
Right, and if you want high quality video AND audio, BOTH systems require additional purchase. Difference being that HDMI 1.3 also supports 7.1 Dolby Digital Plus, 1080p, 48-bit color, and the lossless Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and 5.1 PCM audio formats. The Toslink connection limits you to the same 2.0 PCM, and compressed DD and DTS audio formats that come with DVD.

Blah, Blah, Blah.....

The fact of the matter is, out of the box, the MS 360 $400 unit IS capable of HD without any additional purchase. The PS3 is not. End of story.

You can pine all you want about it, but the PS3 costs $200 more and comes with the crappiest connections available. Thats the point. Spend big money for a machine that SONY cant stop talking about the HD angle, and they don't even give you the equipment to enjoy it.

Thats why this discussion was started in the first place. Sony is nickle and diming the customer. Console is much more expensive, games are going to be more expensive, online capabilities appear to be hobbled because they don't have standards for developers....the list goes on.

Is the 360 perfect? No. Its rollout was plauged with problems also. But now its Sony stepping on its own dork, not MS.

Woochifer
09-26-2006, 07:03 PM
Blah, Blah, Blah.....

The fact of the matter is, out of the box, the MS 360 $400 unit IS capable of HD without any additional purchase. The PS3 is not. End of story.

You can pine all you want about it, but the PS3 costs $200 more and comes with the crappiest connections available. Thats the point. Spend big money for a machine that SONY cant stop talking about the HD angle, and they don't even give you the equipment to enjoy it.

Thats why this discussion was started in the first place. Sony is nickle and diming the customer. Console is much more expensive, games are going to be more expensive, online capabilities appear to be hobbled because they don't have standards for developers....the list goes on.

Is the 360 perfect? No. Its rollout was plauged with problems also. But now its Sony stepping on its own dork, not MS.

Talk about nickeling and diming. So, I guess that Microsoft is doing its customers a great favor by not providing the secure digital connections that just about every other HD device out there now provides. So they provide the component video cables -- wow, X360 buyers have hit the jackpot! Since the component video cables are such an essential accessory otherwise unaffordable to the buying public without Microsoft's generosity, I guess it doesn't matter that the 360 can't play HD-DVD without an add-on, can't do 1080p without a software update and a VGA connection, and won't support the next gen digital audio formats.

Out of the box, the $500 PS3 will be current with the HDMI 1.3 spec. But, that's no big deal, right? Who needs the convenience of one cable, when THREE sets of cables (component vid, VGA, and Toslink) can do the same job! It won't matter at all that by the end of next year most new midlevel home theater components will likely support the HDMI 1.3 spec, and by the year after most products down to the HTIB systems will be current with the HDMI spec. Indeed, Sony's ripping off its customers by not including a $10 cable in the box, while Microsoft's providing great value by excluding HDMI connections and HD-DVD support out of the box. :rolleyes:

Groundbeef
09-27-2006, 05:59 AM
Talk about nickeling and diming. So, I guess that Microsoft is doing its customers a great favor by not providing the secure digital connections that just about every other HD device out there now provides. So they provide the component video cables -- wow, X360 buyers have hit the jackpot! Since the component video cables are such an essential accessory otherwise unaffordable to the buying public without Microsoft's generosity, I guess it doesn't matter that the 360 can't play HD-DVD without an add-on, can't do 1080p without a software update and a VGA connection, and won't support the next gen digital audio formats.

Out of the box, the $500 PS3 will be current with the HDMI 1.3 spec. But, that's no big deal, right? Who needs the convenience of one cable, when THREE sets of cables (component vid, VGA, and Toslink) can do the same job! It won't matter at all that by the end of next year most new midlevel home theater components will likely support the HDMI 1.3 spec, and by the year after most products down to the HTIB systems will be current with the HDMI spec. Indeed, Sony's ripping off its customers by not including a $10 cable in the box, while Microsoft's providing great value by excluding HDMI connections and HD-DVD support out of the box. :rolleyes:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Video-Accessories-and-Add-ons/sem/rpsm/catOid/-12885/Ntk/All/Ntt/hdmi cable/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Xbox-360-Xbox/sem/rpsm/catOid/-16483/Ntk/All/Ntt/xbox 360 component/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&context=&keyword=xbox+360+vga&searchSection=All

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=hdmi+cable&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/search-ng.gsp?search_constraint=0&search_query=hdmi+cable&ic=20_0

The above links help to clarify the issue that you seem to be missing. The 360 doesn't have HDMI. This fact is indisputable, and undeniable. However FOR GAMING the 360 comes out of the box ($400 model) ready to do HD 720p. It also does 1080i. For GAMERS this is more than adequate.

The PS3 comes with all sorts of media blitz, and indicates that it too is "HD". Yes it is capable, but IS NOT READY. Most consumers will be making their purchase at a big box retalier and will be informed that they need to purchase additional cables to make their system "HD". This is on top of the $600 they just shelled out for the "HD" next generation console. As you can see most of the big box retailers are selling HDMI cables for WELL over the $10 you can get them for online. Many will opt for purchasing cables w/system. This is due to salesman pressure, or ignorace to other alternatives. For those consumers w/out HDMI connections on their TV, they may need a DVI/HDMI converter for an additional fee.

Without a doubt SONY will offer cables of their own branding, I would assume pricing will be similar to that of the XBOX brand cables (about $40), unsure of HDMI cable cost for SONY.

As far as MS goes, the HD-DVD is an add-on. If I don't want it, I don't buy it. Yes HDMI would be nice...of course. However, it is not necessary to experience HD gaming. You can keep beating your horse Woochier, but its already dead. Sony has stumbled on this one. They may have included the next gen DVD player, but didn't include anything to show it off. And for those customers who balk at buying more cables, they may be even more turned off by the picture that the analog cables provide.

As far as a "software" update for MS, that is a no brainer. If your 360 is capable of getting online, it will do the d/l all by itself. Usually there is a prompt to ask if you want to d/l the update. You hit "yes" and it proceeds. You can play games and everything while it handles the job in the background. I am not sure why this is even an issue. If nothing else, XBOX Live is a showcase on how to handle online gaming. Even rabid sony fanboys appreciate how easy, simple and intagrated the system is for games and d/l. If for some reason you cannont get your 360 online, MS makes a file you can d/l to your personal computer, save it on cd/rom and put it in the console. It will do the update that way.

If anything, this has stolen some of Sony's fire around the 1080p issue. From online readings it appears that only about 17% of the population have flat panel TV's. While 48% report that the next purchase of a TV will be a Flat Panel. Of the 17% it is unclear how many currently support 1080p. My guess would be less than 5%.

Component connections will be adequate for the remainder of the population. You could always hire out the "Geek Squad" to show you how to hook up audio connections if its a real problem. Judging from your posts it apppears that you are having trouble, and HDMI will be your savior as it only requires you to figure out how to put 1 cord in the console and 1 in your receiver. For the rest of us tech savy youngsters, I am willing to bet we can handle the extra cable.

Incidently it has come out that the "new" sony controller has no way for the consumer to access the battery. This is the "Apple Ipod" style of manufacturing. So when the rechargable battery goes kaput, so does your controller!!! What a feature. At least with the 360 if the rechargable battery dies, you only have to shell out $10, vs $50 for a whole new controller. YEAAAA Sony.......another brain trust feature there!

Woochifer
09-27-2006, 09:08 AM
As far as MS goes, the HD-DVD is an add-on. If I don't want it, I don't buy it. Yes HDMI would be nice...of course. However, it is not necessary to experience HD gaming. You can keep beating your horse Woochier, but its already dead. Sony has stumbled on this one. They may have included the next gen DVD player, but didn't include anything to show it off. And for those customers who balk at buying more cables, they may be even more turned off by the picture that the analog cables provide.

Talk about beating a dead horse. You're harping on something that can easily be fixed by simply buying a cable! But, exercising any opportunity to bash the PS3, no matter how trivial or speculative the issue might be, and gloss over/excuse issues with the Xbox 360 seems to be your sole agenda on this board.

The Xbox 360's excusion of HDMI cannot be easily fixed, which means that features like 1080p and high res audio cannot be implemented by simply plugging in a cable.

And remember which board you're on? This is AUDIOreview.com, so people on this board who get a gaming console are going to likely want the multichannel audio as well. Again, can't do that out of the box with either console. Difference though is that the PS3's HDMI 1.3 connection will support the higher resolution 5.1/7.1 formats, while the Xbox 360's Toslink connection leaves you stuck with the same lossy formats that came with the DVD.


If anything, this has stolen some of Sony's fire around the 1080p issue. From online readings it appears that only about 17% of the population have flat panel TV's. While 48% report that the next purchase of a TV will be a Flat Panel. Of the 17% it is unclear how many currently support 1080p. My guess would be less than 5%.

Those are current numbers. These consoles will likely have a shelf-life of about five years, how much do you think that market picture will change in the meantime? The first HDMI components appeared less than three years ago, and now it's pretty much a required feature for new HD devices.


Component connections will be adequate for the remainder of the population. You could always hire out the "Geek Squad" to show you how to hook up audio connections if its a real problem. Judging from your posts it apppears that you are having trouble, and HDMI will be your savior as it only requires you to figure out how to put 1 cord in the console and 1 in your receiver. For the rest of us tech savy youngsters, I am willing to bet we can handle the extra cable.

And you'll pay for that extra cable as well. So much for the Xbox 360 being "ready" out of the box.

Your inneuendo that HDMI is for people who don't know how to connect extra audio cables to their system is pretty laughable considering the audience that you're speaking to on this board. Maybe that kind of half-baked presumption might fly on a gaming board, but definitely not here. Oh well, nice try anyway.

It's not a matter of figuring out how to plug in an extra audio cable If anything, you seem to lack the comprehesion to figure out that there's a whole new generation of lossless (i.e., noncompressed) multichannel audio formats coming onto the market and the only way to digitally connect them into a home theater system will be via HDMI. Even after paying for the extra Toslink cable, your audio options through that connection will remain DD, DTS, and 2.0 PCM.

The utility of needing only one cable connection for both audio and video signals is not lost on the tech savvy regulars on this board. Most of us with multiple devices hooked up to our home theater systems would welcome the opportunity to reduce the cable clutter with our systems.


Incidently it has come out that the "new" sony controller has no way for the consumer to access the battery. This is the "Apple Ipod" style of manufacturing. So when the rechargable battery goes kaput, so does your controller!!! What a feature. At least with the 360 if the rechargable battery dies, you only have to shell out $10, vs $50 for a whole new controller. YEAAAA Sony.......another brain trust feature there!

More presumption and hyperbole here. If it follows the iPod model, you'll see plenty of battery replacement options come onto the market, including shops that can replace the battery on the spot. I don't know anyone who's tossed away their iPod because of a "dead" battery (rechargeable batteries usually don't go "kaput," rather their charging capacity gets reduced over time), and I doubt that the landfills will start piling up with PS3 controllers either.

Groundbeef
09-27-2006, 10:36 AM
Talk about beating a dead horse. You're harping on something that can easily be fixed by simply buying a cable!

Or by Sony including a "$10" cable in the box to save their customers the hassle. I suppose you prefer to buy all your toilet paper unrolled to save the nickel it costs Charmin to roll it for you? Please, this topic was about how boneheaded it was to not include a HD capable cable in a HD machine. 360 does it PS3 doesn't.




The Xbox 360's excusion of HDMI cannot be easily fixed, which means that features like 1080p and high res audio cannot be implemented by simply plugging in a cable.

Yeah, and remeber the 360 can't do 1080p....oh wait with a software update it can. And MS HAS NOT ruled out HDMI on the standalone HD-DVD drive. It will not be on initial units, but it has not been ruled out on later rollouts.




And remember which board you're on? This is AUDIOreview.com, so people on this board who get a gaming console are going to likely want the multichannel audio as well. Again, can't do that out of the box with either console. Difference though is that the PS3's HDMI 1.3 connection will support the higher resolution 5.1/7.1 formats, while the Xbox 360's Toslink connection leaves you stuck with the same lossy formats that came with the DVD.


Oh yeah, thanks I forgot where I was....happens all the time. You are assuming that EVERY person that purchases this machine is getting it for the Blu-Ray, and has HDMI. I would suggest that a SMALL portion of purchasers will be able to take advantage of the format in the beginning. Don't forget to buy the cable though...remember it doesn't come with the system.




Those are current numbers. These consoles will likely have a shelf-life of about five years, how much do you think that market picture will change in the meantime? The first HDMI components appeared less than three years ago, and now it's pretty much a required feature for new HD devices.

And you'll pay for that extra cable as well. So much for the Xbox 360 being "ready" out of the box.

Your inneuendo that HDMI is for people who don't know how to connect extra audio cables to their system is pretty laughable considering the audience that you're speaking to on this board. Maybe that kind of half-baked presumption might fly on a gaming board, but definitely not here. Oh well, nice try anyway.

Ummmm that was sarcasm. I'll try to tone it down for you a bit. I thought you older folk got "dry" humor a bit more. I fully realize that it is for cutting down on cables, better sound quailty, etc. But again the market ISN"T realized yet. Many more will be using the analog cables for sound now, and for some time into the future.

Again, the 360 IS ready out of the box. It may not meet your requirments, but it has met almost 6 million others.

And "shelf" life as you put it is going to be closer to 6-8 years. With Sony cutting cost of machine in Japan alone, that is expected to keep them in the red for an additional 2 years.




More presumption and hyperbole here. If it follows the iPod model, you'll see plenty of battery replacement options come onto the market, including shops that can replace the battery on the spot. I don't know anyone who's tossed away their iPod because of a "dead" battery (rechargeable batteries usually don't go "kaput," rather their charging capacity gets reduced over time), and I doubt that the landfills will start piling up with PS3 controllers either.

I am not suggesting that EVERY time the battery dies, you have to get a new controller. I am still looking for the link where I read the article. The battery is inaccesable, and cannot be swapped out by a consumer. Do you want to pay someone $40 to replace your $10 battery? No, I thought not.

Woochifer
09-27-2006, 12:49 PM
Or by Sony including a "$10" cable in the box to save their customers the hassle. I suppose you prefer to buy all your toilet paper unrolled to save the nickel it costs Charmin to roll it for you? Please, this topic was about how boneheaded it was to not include a HD capable cable in a HD machine. 360 does it PS3 doesn't.

And it's amazing how much mileage you're trying to milk out of a topic as trivial as this one is.


Yeah, and remeber the 360 can't do 1080p....oh wait with a software update it can. And MS HAS NOT ruled out HDMI on the standalone HD-DVD drive. It will not be on initial units, but it has not been ruled out on later rollouts.

"has not ruled out HDMI"

"standalone HD-DVD drive"

"with a software update it can"

Like I mentioned earlier, a whole lotta speculation, and workarounds and hoops for consumers to jump through, when including the HDMI 1.3 spec with the console in the first place would have solved everything. So, I guess that Microsoft is so concerned about their customers that they will include the VGA and Toslink cables? Yuh, right!


Oh yeah, thanks I forgot where I was....happens all the time. You are assuming that EVERY person that purchases this machine is getting it for the Blu-Ray, and has HDMI. I would suggest that a SMALL portion of purchasers will be able to take advantage of the format in the beginning. Don't forget to buy the cable though...remember it doesn't come with the system.

On this board at least, you can bet that just about every PS3 buyer with a HDTV will make use of the Blu-ray capability, just as a lot of the early PS2 buyers on this board were using their consoles as their primary DVD player. By this time next year, you'll see a flood of HDMI 1.3 components coming onto the market. The DSP chips supporting the HDMI 1.3 spec and the next gen audio formats are already in production, and the receivers, HDTVs, set-top boxes, and processors built around the spec are due out by the end of the year. You seem fine with the Xbox 360 not going with the most current connection standards, yet you'll go on rant after rant just because the PS3 does not include a cable. Quite a spin job yer weaving here!


Ummmm that was sarcasm. I'll try to tone it down for you a bit. I thought you older folk got "dry" humor a bit more. I fully realize that it is for cutting down on cables, better sound quailty, etc. But again the market ISN"T realized yet. Many more will be using the analog cables for sound now, and for some time into the future.

And are we talking about the chicken or the egg? The simple fact is that manufacturers have been on board with the HDMI specs since the first set was laid out in 2003. The latest 1.3 spec supports the next gen audio formats, and pretty much the entire industry will be on board within probably two years, which is well within the shelflife of these new consoles. It's not about assuming that current market conditions will remain the same for the next five to eight years, it's about being ready for changes to the market that pretty much everyone knows are coming. If the industry were to follow your logic, the DVD format would have never included 5.1 audio since at the time of introduction very few Dolby Digital decoders were out there, and DTS would have never gotten off the ground. Nowadays you can hardly find a receiver without 5.1 decoding and DTS support.


Again, the 360 IS ready out of the box. It may not meet your requirments, but it has met almost 6 million others.

Okay, so it's READY! How 'bout that 5.1 audio out of the box?


And "shelf" life as you put it is going to be closer to 6-8 years. With Sony cutting cost of machine in Japan alone, that is expected to keep them in the red for an additional 2 years.

And that would make the imperative for HDMI even more so, since the window for analog video will gradually close over the next few years, as the broadcast standards move over to DTV and more components require secure digital connections like HDMI.


I am not suggesting that EVERY time the battery dies, you have to get a new controller. I am still looking for the link where I read the article. The battery is inaccesable, and cannot be swapped out by a consumer. Do you want to pay someone $40 to replace your $10 battery? No, I thought not.

And where are you getting these cost figures for a product that's not even out yet? If you're using the iPod as an example, your latest bellyaching is yet another nonissue. iPod battery replacement kits (complete with tools) cost about $15, and shops in my area will perform the service while you wait for around $20. If a similar market need arises for the PS3 controller, then I would expect plenty of aftermarket options to emerge in response. And it's not like these batteries have to be replaced all the time to begin with.

Groundbeef
09-27-2006, 02:12 PM
And it's amazing how much mileage you're trying to milk out of a topic as trivial as this one is.
Well, your still biting, and this is just one forum. Its not like the issue was brought up here first. Lots of sites are talking about it, and discussions are going on. As I said before, is this going to end hunger, or bring about world peace? No, of course not. But we aren't here to discuss the heavy issues of the day. We are here to debate the merit of neglecting to include a $10 cable in with a $600 machine.




"has not ruled out HDMI"

"standalone HD-DVD drive"

"with a software update it can"

Like I mentioned earlier, a whole lotta speculation, and workarounds and hoops for consumers to jump through, when including the HDMI 1.3 spec with the console in the first place would have solved everything. So, I guess that Microsoft is so concerned about their customers that they will include the VGA and Toslink cables? Yuh, right!

So any electronic item you ever buy you fully expect that it will never evolve? Please. MS didn't include HD-DVD in its rollout. OK, maybe they should have, maybe not. But it has been made clear that the next gen console will sell without having HDDVD on board. But as far as hoops go? D/L a software update? Is it really that hard? Have you ever used XBOX live for either the original or 360? D/L are easy. Stand alone product, for $170-199 a HD-DVD drive is a great price. I would buy it (and probably will) rather than shell out $500 for a stand-alone player that doesn't interact w/360. If the cables don't come with the system, I PROMISE to run a thread about it....honest...really I will...



On this board at least, you can bet that just about every PS3 buyer with a HDTV will make use of the Blu-ray capability, just as a lot of the early PS2 buyers on this board were using their consoles as their primary DVD player. By this time next year, you'll see a flood of HDMI 1.3 components coming onto the market. The DSP chips supporting the HDMI 1.3 spec and the next gen audio formats are already in production, and the receivers, HDTVs, set-top boxes, and processors built around the spec are due out by the end of the year. You seem fine with the Xbox 360 not going with the most current connection standards, yet you'll go on rant after rant just because the PS3 does not include a cable. Quite a spin job yer weaving here!

Well I hope you plan on spending the night on the sidewalk to get one. And if you do, congrats! As far as the 360 goes, I don't have a problem with the connection as is. My Plasma doesn't have HDMI, (DVI), and composite (componenet) works great for HD for me.
As far as rant goes, I am not sure about that. Seems you Sony Folk get all worked up about it when I mentioned it, so I'll keep running I guess.




And are we talking about the chicken or the egg? The simple fact is that manufacturers have been on board with the HDMI specs since the first set was laid out in 2003. The latest 1.3 spec supports the next gen audio formats, and pretty much the entire industry will be on board within probably two years, which is well within the shelflife of these new consoles. It's not about assuming that current market conditions will remain the same for the next five to eight years, it's about being ready for changes to the market that pretty much everyone knows are coming. If the industry were to follow your logic, the DVD format would have never included 5.1 audio since at the time of introduction very few Dolby Digital decoders were out there, and DTS would have never gotten off the ground. Nowadays you can hardly find a receiver without 5.1 decoding and DTS support.
I was only saying your expectation that the life span would be 5 years. I think it will be longer.




Okay, so it's READY! How 'bout that 5.1 audio out of the box?

Who is trying to put out a snow job here? The 360 is 5.1 capable, with a optical cable. But for the low price of just $400 how can you expect MS to include the cable. I mean really, Sony doesn't for $600....

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGPuuHiruL11171443
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/675/675615p1.html

Lets not try to outright decieve people. The 360 is fully able to render 5.1 Dolby





And where are you getting these cost figures for a product that's not even out yet? If you're using the iPod as an example, your latest bellyaching is yet another nonissue. iPod battery replacement kits (complete with tools) cost about $15, and shops in my area will perform the service while you wait for around $20. If a similar market need arises for the PS3 controller, then I would expect plenty of aftermarket options to emerge in response. And it's not like these batteries have to be replaced all the time to begin with.

I am basing cost on 360 accessory costs. Additional controller $50, extra rechargable REMOVEABLE battery $10. I seriously doubt PS3 will price much higher.

Replacement battery for IPOD + Labor according to you is $35. Battery plus labor.
Incidently that voids your warrenty. Bad idea if you still have coverage left.

Woochifer
09-27-2006, 03:20 PM
Well, your still biting, and this is just one forum. Its not like the issue was brought up here first. Lots of sites are talking about it, and discussions are going on. As I said before, is this going to end hunger, or bring about world peace? No, of course not. But we aren't here to discuss the heavy issues of the day. We are here to debate the merit of neglecting to include a $10 cable in with a $600 machine.

And what a waste of bandwidth that is if these discussions are going on elsewhere as well.


So any electronic item you ever buy you fully expect that it will never evolve? Please. MS didn't include HD-DVD in its rollout. OK, maybe they should have, maybe not. But it has been made clear that the next gen console will sell without having HDDVD on board. But as far as hoops go? D/L a software update? Is it really that hard? Have you ever used XBOX live for either the original or 360? D/L are easy. Stand alone product, for $170-199 a HD-DVD drive is a great price. I would buy it (and probably will) rather than shell out $500 for a stand-alone player that doesn't interact w/360. If the cables don't come with the system, I PROMISE to run a thread about it....honest...really I will...

I would expect a product to evolve, but I would also expect it to conform with existing standards. I don't know of any other HD devices introduced within the past year that did not include HDMI connections.


Well I hope you plan on spending the night on the sidewalk to get one. And if you do, congrats! As far as the 360 goes, I don't have a problem with the connection as is. My Plasma doesn't have HDMI, (DVI), and composite (componenet) works great for HD for me.

Keep in mind that I am one of those casual gamers that Lensman referred to. I don't plan to buy a PS3 until I upgrade the rest of my video chain to HD, and Sony gets any early production hiccups out of the system. And apparently, I'm not alone. As recently as June, the five-year old PS2 was still outselling the Xbox 360.

Your TV might not have digital video inputs, but good luck trying to find a new HDTV nowadays without HDMI. And if you have other HD devices hooked up to your TV, better hope they don't break down because there's no guarantee that hardware manufacturers will continue to support HD analog video in the future. And if the studios ever decide to activate the ICT with HD-DVDs, your analog component video resolution is limited to 540p, not much better than DVD.


As far as rant goes, I am not sure about that. Seems you Sony Folk get all worked up about it when I mentioned it, so I'll keep running I guess.

No one's getting worked up except you apparently. Your contributions on this board are mostly a stream of PS3-bashing and X360-fanboidom. Most of us are content to check into the PS3 after it comes out, and discuss the merits/dismerits at that point. You seem more obsessed with making federal cases out of every negative pre-release rumor that you read about the PS3. I mean, you were all too happy to gloat when the $500 PS3 was originally announced without HDMI, yet the silence from your end has been quite amusing in light of Sony's more recent decision to include HDMI 1.3 with the base model.

If you consider me one of them "Sony Folk" you obviously haven't been reading too many of my home theater posts.


Who is trying to put out a snow job here? The 360 is 5.1 capable, with a optical cable. But for the low price of just $400 how can you expect MS to include the cable. I mean really, Sony doesn't for $600....

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGPuuHiruL11171443
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/675/675615p1.html

Lets not try to outright decieve people. The 360 is fully able to render 5.1 Dolby

I never said that the 360 was incapable of rendering 5.1 Dolby, only that it's not "READY" for 5.1 audio, given that your standard for something being "READY" means including the cable. Are you saying that the 360 will give you 5.1 audio without a Toslink cable?


Replacement battery for IPOD + Labor according to you is $35. Battery plus labor.
Incidently that voids your warrenty. Bad idea if you still have coverage left.

Nope, the total battery replacement cost of $20 INCLUDES the battery. It's no different than taking a watch to a jeweler to have the battery replaced -- takes only a few minutes and the cost is not much more than buying just the battery.

Within the one-year warranty period, I doubt that the a rechargeable battery will need to be replaced unless it's defective, in which case it would be done as a warranty service.

Groundbeef
09-27-2006, 03:44 PM
And what a waste of bandwidth that is if these discussions are going on elsewhere as well.
Probably, but this is the "News & RUMOR" section. Not the News & Written in Stone section.




I would expect a product to evolve, but I would also expect it to conform with existing standards. I don't know of any other HD devices introduced within the past year that did not include HDMI connections.

The 360 didn't includ a HD-DVD drive (or blu-ray) for that matter. This ground has been covered by both you and I. HDMI IS NOT required for HD gaming. Should they have put HDMI onboard from the onset? Probably, as you point out, in the future things change, and it may be necessary. At that point however, the standalone player would probably be able to carry the signal out with HDMI.



Keep in mind that I am one of those casual gamers that Lensman referred to. I don't plan to buy a PS3 until I upgrade the rest of my video chain to HD, and Sony gets any early production hiccups out of the system. And apparently, I'm not alone. As recently as June, the five-year old PS2 was still outselling the Xbox 360.

Your TV might not have digital video inputs, but good luck trying to find a new HDTV nowadays without HDMI. And if you have other HD devices hooked up to your TV, better hope they don't break down because there's no guarantee that hardware manufacturers will continue to support HD analog video in the future. And if the studios ever decide to activate the ICT with HD-DVDs, your analog component video resolution is limited to 540p, not much better than DVD. .

We will cross that bridge when we need to. As pointed out the copy protection would not affect the base console as HDMI is not needed for HD gaming. Copy protection schemes wouldn't affect the game disk play.




No one's getting worked up except you apparently. Your contributions on this board are mostly a stream of PS3-bashing and X360-fanboidom. Most of us are content to check into the PS3 after it comes out, and discuss the merits/dismerits at that point. You seem more obsessed with making federal cases out of every negative pre-release rumor that you read about the PS3. I mean, you were all too happy to gloat when the $500 PS3 was originally announced without HDMI, yet the silence from your end has been quite amusing in light of Sony's more recent decision to include HDMI 1.3 with the base model.

If you consider me one of them "Sony Folk" you obviously haven't been reading too many of my home theater posts. .

Now your getting personal. I may post Pro MS on this board, but I make other contributions in other areas. If you don't like my posts, dont read them.




Nope, the total battery replacement cost of $20 INCLUDES the battery. It's no different than taking a watch to a jeweler to have the battery replaced -- takes only a few minutes and the cost is not much more than buying just the battery.

Within the one-year warranty period, I doubt that the a rechargeable battery will need to be replaced unless it's defective, in which case it would be done as a warranty service.

Ok, but I still think it is silly that you cannot replace the battery if needed.

Woochifer
09-27-2006, 05:35 PM
Probably, but this is the "News & RUMOR" section. Not the News & Written in Stone section.

And it's still a whole lotta verbiage over nothing.


The 360 didn't includ a HD-DVD drive (or blu-ray) for that matter. This ground has been covered by both you and I. HDMI IS NOT required for HD gaming. Should they have put HDMI onboard from the onset? Probably, as you point out, in the future things change, and it may be necessary. At that point however, the standalone player would probably be able to carry the signal out with HDMI.

"probably" ... of course, that would mean that at that juncture you'd need to replace your X360.


Now your getting personal. I may post Pro MS on this board, but I make other contributions in other areas. If you don't like my posts, dont read them.

Boy, someone's getting testy here! I'm simply making note of your posting pattern, nothing personal about that. Are you denying that most of your threads are basically Xbox 360 lovefests and PS3 bashing? If you can't handle the fact that this isn't a gamer board and most of the regulars are not fanboys for either console, then maybe you should take your toys to a gamer or car audio board where that kind of playground mentality is more prevalent. Don't like the reaction your posts are getting? Then maybe you should rethink your approach.


Ok, but I still think it is silly that you cannot replace the battery if needed.

Like I said, it's not like a rechargeable battery's going to suddenly die on you and render the controller inoperable. If it's anything like the battery replacement options available for the iPod, this is a nonissue.

Groundbeef
09-28-2006, 05:09 AM
And it's still a whole lotta verbiage over nothing.
And yet you still find time to comment....must be worth something.





"probably" ... of course, that would mean that at that juncture you'd need to replace your X360.
I don't think that I was clear enough. I meant the standalone HD-DVD drive, not the console. MS has indicated that there will not be a HD-DVD internal, but have NOT ruled out HDMI at a later date on the HD-DVD drive. No need to replace the console. Who knows, if Blu-Ray does become the defacto standard, MS STILL stands to win, as theoreticly they could add a Blu-Ray drive via USB as they are doint w/ HD-DVD. On the flip side, if HD-DVD becomes the standard, what will that do to Sony? This is a serious question and not a "Bash". If Blu-Ray does fail, that would be a serious blow to Sony.




Boy, someone's getting testy here! I'm simply making note of your posting pattern, nothing personal about that. Are you denying that most of your threads are basically Xbox 360 lovefests and PS3 bashing? If you can't handle the fact that this isn't a gamer board and most of the regulars are not fanboys for either console, then maybe you should take your toys to a gamer or car audio board where that kind of playground mentality is more prevalent. Don't like the reaction your posts are getting? Then maybe you should rethink your approach.

You are noting the posting pattern on this area of the board. Frankly I don't care what you think about me or my posts. However I do think that is funny that you invite me to leave when YOU become tired of the posts. I suppose you stick your nose into every Bose/Anti-Bose thread, every high $ speaker wire debate, every LP vs Digital music debate, and any other debate that people get worked up about around here, and also suggest that they leave as well? And it appears that this post and other console discussions are getting plenty of hits on this board. I missed the election where you were voted "most important poster and leader of important discussion and issues". Let me know when the next meeting is, I'll be sure to attend so I can make my posts more palatable to your taste.



Like I said, it's not like a rechargeable battery's going to suddenly die on you and render the controller inoperable. If it's anything like the battery replacement options available for the iPod, this is a nonissue.

A non-issue for you. People are illogical, and sometimes make decsions based on criteria that you or I find irrelevent. Maybe its color, size, smell, or any other variable. Just because it doesn't mean anything to you, it may mean something to others. Either that or post a scanned copy of your "Speaks for everyone in the world card" that you seem to carry in your wallet.

Woochifer
09-28-2006, 12:24 PM
And yet you still find time to comment....must be worth something.

Yup, always fun commenting on the absurdity of how much stock you put into this kind of a nonissue.


I don't think that I was clear enough. I meant the standalone HD-DVD drive, not the console. MS has indicated that there will not be a HD-DVD internal, but have NOT ruled out HDMI at a later date on the HD-DVD drive. No need to replace the console. Who knows, if Blu-Ray does become the defacto standard, MS STILL stands to win, as theoreticly they could add a Blu-Ray drive via USB as they are doint w/ HD-DVD. On the flip side, if HD-DVD becomes the standard, what will that do to Sony? This is a serious question and not a "Bash". If Blu-Ray does fail, that would be a serious blow to Sony.

How Blu-ray does on the consumer side as a HD video disc format is completely separate from its market prospects as a data storage format. Most of the major system integrators have thrown their support behind Blu-ray simply because it has a higher disc capacity than HD-DVD.

All this talk about HD-DVD for the Xbox 360 centers around an add-on drive, but what if the Xbox 360 starts putting the HD-DVD drive into the console as standard equipment? Does this mean that down the road, Xbox 360 games will be distributed on HD-DVD media?

On the home video side, HD-DVD will not become the de facto standard, not so long as Sony controls roughly one-quarter of the motion picture market, and most of HD-DVD's studio backers support both formats while the rest of the studios are exclusively in the Blu-ray camp. The most plausible negative scenario would be that both formats flop because consumers choose stay with the DVD format. The only other scenario where HD-DVD would become the standard would entail Blu-ray failing to solve its remaining technical hurdles (e.g., problems with multi-layer media, low production yield rates, durability questions about writable disc media, etc.), but I doubt it will come to that.

Otherwise, I think the format war will be over once LG and Samsung put their dual format drives onto the market, and everybody else (except for maybe Toshiba and Sony) follows suit with universal players. And once the universal players are out there, then I think Blu-ray will gradually pull away because of its greater level of studio support. Won't matter to either Toshiba or Sony though because both of them will get the licensing revenue on the hardware side once universal players go on the market.


You are noting the posting pattern on this area of the board. Frankly I don't care what you think about me or my posts. However I do think that is funny that you invite me to leave when YOU become tired of the posts.

I'm not inviting you to leave, I just get the impression that you'd be a lot more at home on a gamer board, since your habit of calling people out, demanding apologies, and flamebaiting is pretty much standard issue over there. On this board, you seem like a fish out of water, flailing around looking for an argument.


I suppose you stick your nose into every Bose/Anti-Bose thread, every high $ speaker wire debate, every LP vs Digital music debate, and any other debate that people get worked up about around here, and also suggest that they leave as well?

And those are usually subject-driven debates based on first-hand experience or technical information, not the speculative fanboy hissy fits that are more typical of gamer boards.


And it appears that this post and other console discussions are getting plenty of hits on this board.

Yeah, it's because these kinds of train-wreck threads are always a source of amusement. Look up some of Lexmark3200's meltdown threads if you want to see high hit counts, and believe me you don't want to be lumped into the same category with him.


I missed the election where you were voted "most important poster and leader of important discussion and issues".

No such election, but I did win this one (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13363) and indeed you missed that vote.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13363


A non-issue for you. People are illogical, and sometimes make decsions based on criteria that you or I find irrelevent. Maybe its color, size, smell, or any other variable. Just because it doesn't mean anything to you, it may mean something to others. Either that or post a scanned copy of your "Speaks for everyone in the world card" that you seem to carry in your wallet.

In other words, you were grasping at straws and pulling numbers out of your arse. ("was it $10 vs. $50? or was it $15 + $20? or was I saying that that the battery would go kaput? or was I saying a bad battery would require controller replacement? ...") Keep right on backtracking, you might get back to where you started eventually ...

Groundbeef
09-28-2006, 01:03 PM
Yup, always fun commenting on the absurdity of how much stock you put into this kind of a nonissue.

In other words, you were grasping at straws and pulling numbers out of your arse. ("was it $10 vs. $50? or was it $15 + $20? or was I saying that that the battery would go kaput? or was I saying a bad battery would require controller replacement? ...") Keep right on backtracking, you might get back to where you started eventually ...

? What are you talking about here? You asked where I got cost, and I told you I was basing it on current costs for 360 equipment. A new controller costs $50 ($40 if you don't need wireless) and a removable, replacement battery is $10.

Now, as you are planning, and most people are, the PS3 or 360 will become part of the home theater enviromnent. As such it will be placed in some sort of cabinet or storage device. The advantage/ability is the wireless controllers in larger living areas. W/ 360 you can swap out the battery (or use AA) and keep playing wireless. W/ PS3 you need to wire your controller to continue playing until it is charged. End of world? No, certainly not, however wireless controllers are not being made because people love the wires.

Will the lack of cable being included doom the PS3? Certainly not.

Will the lack of "Rumble" on the controller be a problem? Maybe, as a lot of gamers are upset with it; but will it sink the system rollout? No.

Are these issues "non-issues" as you state? Well at least for you, they are. But for lots out in the gaming community, they are certainly issues that are being discussed. Sorry for crashing YOUR board, but I rather enjoy the discussion. As for being a "fish out of water", I may be out of my league on some issues, but your no game savant yourself. You look at issues with your AV goggles on, but not everyone (on this board I may add) looks at these issues the same.

This post started out as a misstep (IMHO) on Sony's part. Obviously you don't agree with it, and thats ok.

And I would challenge you to ever find a post where I have said that the PS3 is inferior, or that the 360 is "SO much better" or anything like that. I obviously prefer MS for this particular product, but so what. Show me one person on this board that is NOT passionate about something related to A/V. Whether it be a speaker, component, reciever, MP3 player, anything. And most of the time they are not shy about it either. Most folks here at the bottem of their posts lists their equipment/setup. I may be a bit more vocal, but I certainly don't fault anyone for choosing different. And if you don't think that either MS or Sony wants this console to be one of, if not THE most important electronic device in your living room you are kidding yourself. Why is MS working out a deal w/DirectTV to pipe HD content directly into the 360? They want to control the living room so to speak. (As does Sony)

All the posts related to PS3 from me are generally not complimentary to Sony. It is the constant misstep and foolish errors (IMHO) that I point out. This is no different than the conversations that occured the week after MS rolled out the 360. Those discussions certainly were not to point out how many on this board LOVE MS. You participated in those as well. So I guess we are not so different in our thinking about discussing consoles either.

Is the PS3 a viable console? Of course. Will it play great games? Of course. Should anyone not purchase it? Not on my account please, and if you do, enjoy it.

superpanavision70mm
09-30-2006, 05:04 PM
Another classic example of how a very innocent thread turned into a war over stupid things. Apparently the only opinions that anyone is entitled to around here is that of the latest poster. I'm certainly a fan of debate, but bickering back and forth with personal attacks about such things are unproductive and idiotic.

Groundbeef
10-01-2006, 04:47 AM
Another classic example of how a very innocent thread turned into a war over stupid things. Apparently the only opinions that anyone is entitled to around here is that of the latest poster. I'm certainly a fan of debate, but bickering back and forth with personal attacks about such things are unproductive and idiotic.

? What are you talking about? You can have any opinion you want on this topic. And as a fan of debate (you said you are) then you would need 2 different opinions (at least) on the topic for a debate.

And you didn't seem to add much to the actual debate, as to cast dispersions on the OP (me), while professing such practices as "Unproductive and idiotic".

Thanks for posting though.

pikers
10-28-2006, 11:59 AM
Ok, your right. I'll put a happy spin on it for you. Sony has annouced to the joy and elation to gamers everywhere that the next generation game console PS3 will not be shipping with the HDMI cable. This is done as a cost cutting measure so that players can now more easily afford to purchase the cable aftermarket. Sony has also quietly mentioned that gamers actually will NOT need the HDMI cable because games will not be played at 1080p resolution.

That's like buying a car and complaining that for best results, 93 octane is a required purchase. It comes, like most new cars, with 87 in the tank. Plus, why add a cable that only a small percentage of users will employ initially?


Many gamers in the community are overjoyed at this announcement, and message boards are flooded with complimentary statements aimed at Sony. Coupled with the annoucment that shipements of consoles will be 50% of previously stated levels it is easy to see why.

PS3 haters, yes. Some people need to grow the F up.


Wow, I feel so much better. And your right of course. I should be more upbeat.
Thanks for the tip... got anymore?

Yes, see your counselor instead of trolling these boards with your beefs.:17:

Groundbeef
10-31-2006, 07:57 AM
Yes, see your counselor instead of trolling these boards with your beefs.:17:

I see it only took you about a month to join the conversation. I suppose you were stuck under your bridge, and the billy goat wouldn't let you out?

Nice of you to join the party, but as you can see most of us have moved on. If you are getting a PS3, have fun.

basite
10-31-2006, 11:14 AM
personally, i more like a pc, first of all, it's multifunctional, with that i mean that it was actually built to do more than gaming, second, you can go out there, buy any pc game you want, and they will all work, and, for me, the keyboard+mouse is just way better then a controller...

Groundbeef
10-31-2006, 11:51 AM
personally, i more like a pc, first of all, it's multifunctional, with that i mean that it was actually built to do more than gaming, second, you can go out there, buy any pc game you want, and they will all work, and, for me, the keyboard+mouse is just way better then a controller...

I was always hardcore PC gamer, and then I noticed that ALOT of really cool games that I wanted were really only available on console. In fact, I purchased my first XBOX for the sole reason of Fight Night 2. There are NO boxing games for the PC, and it is a real shame. I then purchased my 360 to play Fight Night 3. (also boxing). Since then, I have really come around to console gaming.

Yes, I am not going to contest ASWD + mouse is better for First Person Shooters, but it would be difficult to justify the PC VS Console debate. They both have relative strengths and weakness.

My wife prefers the console so that I am not holed up in my office, and I prefer it because I am playing on 37" of HD glory. Games today on 360 (or PS3 for that matter) rival those of any $3000 machine. If you havent give them a chance, now would be the time.

As far as multifunctional, I don't really see that as a plus over the Console. I have been able to use the 360 as a media hub, and can pull movies, pictures and movies off my PC. It is sort of a "server" for the 360 in the living room. It is really nice when family comes over, so for example, I have put all the kids pictures, and vacation pictures on slideshow, and play music off the PC. Then, when we want to have music on, we just stream off the PC and play it over the AV system via the 360. If I want to do my taxes, I go to the basement.

rock222
11-20-2006, 08:48 AM
iRobot

Worth a try - I think - goto

L I N K (http://dal.maddsites.com/h000400.html)

and enter info to get it.

nightflier
11-20-2006, 11:08 AM
Wow, this sure is one hell of a debate over a $10 cable. I think the original poster has a point that Sony should have included HD capability if they were going to tout it.

Just out of curiosity, if using component cables, the PS3 will not play BluRay disks at 1080p, correct? Even if the component video spec and my TV will support it? In a previous post, I thought I read that it would. What about upconversion of standard DVDs to 1080p, does it do that? Has anyone who bought one of these tested this out?

Groundbeef
11-21-2006, 09:38 AM
Just out of curiosity, if using component cables, the PS3 will not play BluRay disks at 1080p, correct? Even if the component video spec and my TV will support it? In a previous post, I thought I read that it would. What about upconversion of standard DVDs to 1080p, does it do that? Has anyone who bought one of these tested this out?


I am sure Wooch will correct me if I am wrong, but I think currently you will get 1080p out of component cables. The security items have not been implemented on Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD for now. So it should work. My 360 will push 1080p now that I have the update, and it only has component cables.

I don't know about upconversion.

icarus
11-21-2006, 10:39 AM
From a marketing perspective it is not that stupid of an idea to just give basic cables. It will save them a small amount of money from each purchase that will add up over time, which will bring down some those outragous costs they had in just producing.

The other reason is that the average user of the PS3 will be betwen 10-20 years old, and how many of them can tell the difference between a DVD and a blu-ray, or even care about the sound quality produced from the games. Because better picture and sound quality does not make the games better, for some of the best games like final fantasy 7 for the PS1, the graphics aren't great but its all about the gameplay. So who cares about a cable, the PS3 will still be better than the Xbox. Because the no matter how look at it the xbox is still a product of microsft, and lets be honest when it comes computer electronics, the only thing microsoft as EVER done really well at is Excel.

Geoffcin
11-21-2006, 12:37 PM
I am sure Wooch will correct me if I am wrong, but I think currently you will get 1080p out of component cables. The security items have not been implemented on Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD for now. So it should work. My 360 will push 1080p now that I have the update, and it only has component cables.

I don't know about upconversion.

Using component cables. HDMI gives you 1080p output.

HD-DVD player is being discounted at BestBuy. $399.

Woochifer
11-21-2006, 12:40 PM
I am sure Wooch will correct me if I am wrong, but I think currently you will get 1080p out of component cables. The security items have not been implemented on Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD for now. So it should work. My 360 will push 1080p now that I have the update, and it only has component cables.

I don't know about upconversion.

My understanding is that it can output 1080p with game play thru the component vid cables, but downconverts to 1080i with Blu-ray discs (at least the ones released so without the image constraint token activated). For 1080p with Blu-ray, you gotta have HDMI. But even with 1080p through component video cables, I've read conflicting reports about whether the bandwidth is sufficient.

No upscaling either. In fact, I read that the system will downscale a 720p source down to 480p if using an older HDTV that only supports 1080i and not 720p. (This primarily affects Panasonic plasmas more than two years old) Not sure if this can be fixed with a firmware update, or if it's a permanent bit of decontenting to keep the PS3 from canibalizing sales from other Blu-ray players.

Reports on the PS3 indicate that its picture quality is superior to the $1,000 Blu-ray player that Samsung introduced in August. I would guess that the Blu-ray players coming out from Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer (all of which are more expensive than the PS3) will have upconversion and other processing features. Otherwise, they'd offer no real advantage over the PS3 on the Blu-ray functionality, while selling for a higher list price.

Groundbeef
11-21-2006, 01:54 PM
Using component cables. HDMI gives you 1080p output.

HD-DVD player is being discounted at BestBuy. $399.

Or buy a Xbox 360 hd-dvd drive for $199. No HDMI though. And you need the Xbox 360 of course.

nightflier
11-21-2006, 02:17 PM
Reports on the PS3 indicate that its picture quality is superior to the $1,000 Blu-ray player that Samsung introduced in August. I would guess that the Blu-ray players coming out from Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer (all of which are more expensive than the PS3) will have upconversion and other processing features. Otherwise, they'd offer no real advantage over the PS3 on the Blu-ray functionality, while selling for a higher list price.

Wooch, thanks for the update. This is why I've been holding out. Makes you wonder if those $1500 Blu-Ray Players are not overpriced when a PS3 is only $600 and does BR & a whole lot more.... As it turns out I am stuck with a Panasonic TV that does not do 720p, so it's either 480p or 1080i. Looks like I'll be shopping for a new TV soon, 'cause all this component video copy protection nonsense is really starting to tick me off. Maybe I'll wait for those new laser TV's to bring the price of Plasma down some more.... I also bought into Outlaw's DVI format for my preamp and got screwed again with a dying format. If I didn't have the funds to keep upgrading, I'd be a whole lot more ticked off.

Anyhow, it looks like Blu-Ray is loosing a lot of ground to HD-DVD right now, but I think I'll wait this out a little longer. 20th C. Fox still hasn't signed onto HD-DVD, and what would life be w/o Star Wars in full THX mode?

Problem is, when you're continuously waiting for a format war to end, you tend to miss all the new technology...

Groundbeef
11-21-2006, 02:52 PM
Maybe I'll wait for those new laser TV's to bring the price of Plasma down some more.... I also bought into Outlaw's DVI format for my preamp and got screwed again with a dying format. If I didn't have the funds to keep upgrading, I'd be a whole lot more ticked off.

Anyhow, it looks like Blu-Ray is loosing a lot of ground to HD-DVD right now, but I think I'll wait this out a little longer. 20th C. Fox still hasn't signed onto HD-DVD, and what would life be w/o Star Wars in full THX mode?

Problem is, when you're continuously waiting for a format war to end, you tend to miss all the new technology...

Your amp should be fine. Just get a DVI-HDMI converter. You don't run your sound through you TV anyway, so don't worry about it. Thats the only thing that DVI doesn't carry that HDMI is the sound. And you can run your HDMI out into a DVI converter if you need it DVI to go into your preamp.

Thats how I am running my DirectTV HD reciever into my Amp and then the TV.
The converter is about $15 or so. I even got a wait for it....a Monster, and suprisingly it was pretty cheap at Best Buy. You might even get one online for cheaper.

Good luck with that!

Woochifer
11-21-2006, 05:14 PM
Wooch, thanks for the update. This is why I've been holding out. Makes you wonder if those $1500 Blu-Ray Players are not overpriced when a PS3 is only $600 and does BR & a whole lot more.... As it turns out I am stuck with a Panasonic TV that does not do 720p, so it's either 480p or 1080i. Looks like I'll be shopping for a new TV soon, 'cause all this component video copy protection nonsense is really starting to tick me off. Maybe I'll wait for those new laser TV's to bring the price of Plasma down some more.... I also bought into Outlaw's DVI format for my preamp and got screwed again with a dying format. If I didn't have the funds to keep upgrading, I'd be a whole lot more ticked off.

Anyhow, it looks like Blu-Ray is loosing a lot of ground to HD-DVD right now, but I think I'll wait this out a little longer. 20th C. Fox still hasn't signed onto HD-DVD, and what would life be w/o Star Wars in full THX mode?

Problem is, when you're continuously waiting for a format war to end, you tend to miss all the new technology...

Well, you're talking to somebody who has yet to pull the trigger on HD! I'm perfectly fine with waiting things out until the dust settles on this whole format war. For one thing, not every new technology or format does much to fundamentally change the market. Right now, no matter what the manufacturers or self-annointed techie gurus tell you, the home theater market is still dominated by 5.1 Dolby Digital and 480 resolution (HDTVs are on the rise, but they still constitute a minority share of the market). 1080p has the potential to be a standard that the market builds around, as does the HDMI 1.3 spec (this seems to be first version that fully realizes HDMI's potential as an integrated digital AV connection standard).

Also, it's kinda early to project a winner before Blu-ray even rolls out most of its first production players. But, I suspect that this format war will end before it even reaches critical mass. The decoding chips that can decode both HD-DVD and Blu-ray are already in production, and all the manufacturers need to create universal players is the dual-format drive that both Samsung and LG have purportedly developed already. Once the universal players come out, then the market for these HD video players will take off, and I think ultimately Blu-ray will prevail simply because more studios and system integrators are on board with the format. But, that doesn't matter because Toshiba/NEC will still rake in the HD-DVD licensing revenues even if those universal players primarily play Blu-ray discs.

I suspect that the price points on Blu-ray won't hold up at $1,500 for too long (that's the rumored price point for Pioneer and Panasonic's Blu-ray players -- I believe that Sony's BD player will be closer to the Samsung's price). Not so long as these players not only have to compete with each other AND the HD-DVD format, but with the PS3 as well.

In a way, Sony's multiple agendas for the PS3 might have torpedoed much of the original rationale behind Blu-ray -- i.e., to maintain high margins for a longer period of time than with the DVD format by maintaining tighter control over the licensing. When the $300 PS2 first came out, the average price of a DVD player was around $250 and the format had already out for three years. Obviously, the situation this time around is very different. Sony's getting squeezed both ways right now -- the pressure to prop up the margins for the Blu-ray format itself, and the need to seed the market with millions of PS3 consoles.