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R332
09-05-2006, 09:01 PM
I have a Paradigm PDR-12 powered subwoofer that I wanted to connect to my home music stereo in conjunction with Paradigm Monitor 9 speakers but a person at my local home stereo store suggested that subwoofers were only to be used for theaters and not for listening to music.

Can this be true or has this man fallen off his rocker? IMO, no car audio system can be complete without some type of woofer for bass reproduction and to my ears the main speakers don't sound deep enough without the woofer.

What is the general consensus on this?

paul_pci
09-05-2006, 09:09 PM
Most folks I'd say like music with a subwoofer unless they have full range speakers, and a few others prefer music without a subwoofer. Not sure what this guy had in mind as it seems odd that any saleman would recommend less equipment. What equipment are you working with? a receiver or separates?

R332
09-05-2006, 09:13 PM
Most folks I'd say like music with a subwoofer unless they have full range speakers, and a few others prefer music without a subwoofer.

Do my Monitor 9s qualify as "full range" speakers?


Not sure what this guy had in mind as it seems odd that any saleman would recommend less equipment. What equipment are you working with? a receiver or separates?

I already own all the equipment. Monitor 9s, PDR-12 sub-woofer and Denon AVR-1700 receiver (looking for a new one - see post in Amps section).

paul_pci
09-05-2006, 09:21 PM
According to the Paradigm website, the Monitor 9s go down to 45hz which makes them more full range than bookshelf speakers, as would be expected. However, the quality of low frequency sound may not be as good as integrating a quality subwoofer, but that will also be a matter of taste and room acoustics, etc. Work with the subwoofer you have, see how you like it and go from there.

dingus
09-05-2006, 09:24 PM
the isnt any harm in trying it out.

teledynepost
09-05-2006, 11:04 PM
If adjusted correctly it should be able to work seamlessly- a few things toconsider there

kexodusc
09-06-2006, 03:49 AM
The Monitor 9's will play bass considerably lower than 45 Hz with decent control and loudness in all but the absolute largest of rooms. For a lot of rock music or blues you may find you have enough bass and no sub is required.

I'm in the camp that believes a subwoofer can improve any speaker, full-range or not for many reasons. If a crossover is used at a well implemented point, a great deal off stress on the speakers is relieved, improving power response, transient response, and possibly frequency response, while reducing distortion and decreasing power requirements.
This combined with the facts that room acoustics usually dictate ideal speaker location is not the ideal location for bass reproduction, and the likelihood your sub will play deeper and sound better at the very low frequencies are strong arguments for using a subwoofer.

The no-sub-for-stereo philosophy many hold is just out-dated sentiment from a time when there weren't many decent subs available, and higher order crossover filters weren't the norm. Not to say a sub is always needed, but they can sure make good sound even better.

Bernd
09-06-2006, 05:13 AM
Well I am in the opposite camp. In my opinion a sub has no place in a 2 channel system.:nonod: I have never heard one that didn't draw attention to itself. Be that at a show, dealer set up or private system.
But if you like what the thing does, go for it. No right or wrong here.
Good luck.

Peace

Bernd:7:

Resident Loser
09-06-2006, 05:54 AM
...against single, summing subs in general...but, If you listen to 2ch program material with a great deal of lo-freq info, i.e. organ music, the only way to reproduce the really low registers of foot pedals with any sort of authority is with capable full-range speakers or a sub (preferably a pair)...

You really need to pay close attention to Xover points and SPLs to get seamless operation...Much more critical with music than LFEs of laser-totin' mechanical lizards...

jimHJJ(...just my .02...)

PlumDragon
09-06-2006, 08:21 AM
Well I am in the opposite camp. In my opinion a sub has no place in a 2 channel system.:nonod: I have never heard one that didn't draw attention to itself. Be that at a show, dealer set up or private system.
Then you just havent tuned your gain and crossovers properly for your system/environment. Speaker setups arent just "out of the box" items. A well setup system has gone through significant tuning with gains, placement, crossovers and a variety of other settings. You dont just plug everything up and expect it to be perfect.

I currently run a stereo setup with a sub and I can tell you that once you find that point at which the sub acquiesces with the rest of the speakers, you will be in heaven. IMO, there is NO DOUBT that a sub can enhance any system, just like a center, or surrounds can whether its for audio or home theater. Once you get better at determining that match, you might even find yourself finely adjsuting gain on the fly to perfectly match the type of sound that you are listening to...

Resident Loser
09-06-2006, 08:26 AM
Then you just havent tuned your gain and crossovers properly for your system/environment. Speaker setups arent just "out of the box" items. A well setup system has gone through significant tuning with gains, placement, crossovers and a variety of other settings. You dont just plug everything up and expect it to be perfect.

I currently run a stereo setup with a sub and I can tell you that once you find that point at which the sub acquiesces with the rest of the speakers, you will be in heaven. IMO, there is NO DOUBT that a sub can enhance any system, just like a center, or surrounds can whether its for audio or home theater. Once you get better at determining that match, you might even find yourself finely adjsuting gain on the fly to perfectly match the type of sound that you are listening to...

...again, be kind...

jimHJJ(...tee-hee, chuckle...chortle...BWAAAHA-HA-HA...)

GMichael
09-06-2006, 08:50 AM
As you can see, some very intelligent people say yes. Some equally intelligent people say no.

I would say that with your speakers you should have a sub. You can always turn it down if it seems to overpower your system. You can also turn it up if you are a base-head and like it overpowering. Some people do. Some don't. Don't let some Salesman tell you what you like. Or anyone here either (especially me). Only you can do that.

Bernd
09-06-2006, 08:59 AM
Then you just havent tuned your gain and crossovers properly for your system/environment. Speaker setups arent just "out of the box" items. A well setup system has gone through significant tuning with gains, placement, crossovers and a variety of other settings. You dont just plug everything up and expect it to be perfect.

I currently run a stereo setup with a sub and I can tell you that once you find that point at which the sub acquiesces with the rest of the speakers, you will be in heaven. IMO, there is NO DOUBT that a sub can enhance any system, just like a center, or surrounds can whether its for audio or home theater. Once you get better at determining that match, you might even find yourself finely adjsuting gain on the fly to perfectly match the type of sound that you are listening to...

I am not sure how I can answer that. You seem to know the set-ups I have listened to, and, in particular my own, very well indeed.
I will say it again I have never heard a 2 channel system where the sub is not drawing attention to itself. However if you like that sort of bass go for it. To me sub stands for substitute.
Let it boom.

Peace

Bernd:4:

Resident Loser
09-06-2006, 09:09 AM
I am not sure how I can answer that. You seem to know the set-ups I have listened to, and, in particular my own, very well indeed.
I will say it again I have never heard a 2 channel system where the sub is not drawing attention to itself. However if you like that sort of bass go for it. To me sub stands for substitute.
Let it boom.

Peace

Bernd:4:

...to be no politician...

jimHJJ(...and kind to boot...)

kexodusc
09-06-2006, 09:29 AM
A subwoofer essentially turns a 2-way speaker into a 3-way speaker. One just needs the time and patience to integrate it properly. I think a reality for many people is simply floor space, or cost/benefit considerations.

My stereo speakers are good to the high 20 Hz's frequencies, so I get by on most music I listen to without a sub. I'd still benefit if I could somehow position the bass producing frequencies of the speakers in a location that doesn't excite the room's modes as disproportionately, not to mention the other benefits I mentioned earlier.

I'm perplexed by the comment a sub "draw attention to itself". People usually ask me if mine's on until a dinosaur starts marching or a depth charge drops and pictures fall off the wall.

I kind of sympathize with the nay-sayers, until parametric EQ-ing and going to a sealed sub, any sub I had simply couldn't keep up with my speakers in terms of sound quality.
I would say a bad sub shouldn't be used in a stereo system, and a poorly integrated sub could give itself away - though good crossover and placement technique, or using 2 would alleviate that concern.
I suppose at the very worse it would be a trade-off between allowing the speaker to sound better across 4 or 5 octaves at the risk of a bit of localization across 1 octave, if the filter is set that high. Then you choose which approach sounds best to you...

In my setup, cost and space keep the sub out more than marginal sound improvements.

Bernd
09-06-2006, 09:41 AM
...to be no politician...

jimHJJ(...and kind to boot...)

Well let me answer that in a related way. In reality........

Peace

Bernd:16:

Bernd
09-06-2006, 09:52 AM
Don't be perplexed over my statement. That's what I have heard and I am not alone on that.

At my Dealer friends we had:

Unison Research Absolute 845

Zingali Home Monitor 215 - ll

SME 20/2

Absolutly no need whatsover for a sub. Just for experimental fun we switched in an REL and he configured it. You could always hear it.

At the last HiFi show I attended:

MBL Radialstrahler 101 E

powered by MBL electronics.

Again absolutly no need for add on bass.

The guys where asked to switch a sub in and it sounded just bad.

And then my system at home.

I schlepped a sub (Audio Physics) home to find out for myself and spent a whole weekend trying to find the spot. It sounded separate from the music. Not good at all.

My conclusions are based on these systems and some more listening in the low to budget price range at friends and shows.

Peace

Bernd:16:

kexodusc
09-06-2006, 10:36 AM
Don't be perplexed over my statement. That's what I have heard and I am not alone on that.



No, you're definitely not alone - I just don't understand how so many people can arrive at a conclusion opposite to that which so many other equally well-versed people arrive at...mind-boggling - I try not to take it personally when I say my sub doesn't give itself away (except its sheer physical size) and enhances music and people look at me like I just told them the sky was green, but it's hard sometimes.

The only commercial subs I've heard do this are the ACI Titan and Maestro, though in my whole life I confess to having heard fewer than 15 subs any longer than a walk down the aisle at a big-box store

I've met cable nay-sayers and yea-sayers that'll compromise...on this issue, I can't even convince a few people to try it...funny thing is my co-worker owns a lovely Selah audio system, full-range etc...he was the one who asked if the sub was on. Can't pay him to take mine for a demo. Won't give me a reason, almost like he's afraid to be wrong...Not worth arguing with him though. :(

Funny thing about listening experiments, you never hear the proof until you finally do.

Woochifer
09-06-2006, 03:08 PM
The answer to whether or not you should use a subwoofer with a two-channel setup will depend on what you're looking to accomplish. A Monitor 9 already reproduces most of the usable frequency range that you'll need. Part of the decision on the sub will depend on how much that last half-octave matters to you.

The other significant contribution that a subwoofer provides is flexibility. A point that most of the purist two-channel crowd ignore is that the ideal location for stereo imaging in most cases is exactly where the bass reinforcement is lowest. Putting speakers into the corners will maximize the low frequency reinforcement, but likely create a hole in the imaging, depending on the room dimensions, seating location, and speaker design.

The subwoofer allows you to place the sub in the spot where the bass is not only reinforced, but has the most even tonal response. If that location is not in the corner, having a subwoofer allows you the flexibility of identifying the location where you have the best balanced bass and put the subwoofer in that spot.

Separating the subwoofer from the main speakers also allows you to use a parametric EQ or other adaptive room calibration device to correct for room-induced problems. Low frequencies interact with one another differently than the higher frequencies in a typical room, and can have huge frequency response shifts by simply moving the sub to a different room or to a different location within the same room. These room interactions create uneveness in the bass response, and having the option to correct for this can produce far more accurate bass in the end. Without some kind of room correction, a sub can sound awful simply because these room-induced issues get worse as the frequency goes lower.

Subwoofers though do have disadvantages, notably with the integration. The time domain accuracy definitely suffers in many cases. If the sub is not properly calibrated, it can sound pretty lousy, but taking the time to setup a subwoofer properly can make the integration very seamless. In general, I've noticed on this board and others that the most vocal subwoofer detractors often have very little hands-on experience with calibrating and placing a subwoofer. In my experience, very few subs that you see in dealer demo rooms are setup correctly, even at high end dealers. The setup and knowing how to deal with acoustical issues go a long way towards blending the sub in with the mains and making the whole system work together.

A lot of these biases against subs are still out there, and IMO a big part of that has to do with how few people have actually heard a properly calibrated subwoofer. Just plugging a $120 parametric equalizer into my sub transformed its sound completely. The bass is now full and very even all the way down to 25 Hz. Without the calibration though, the sub shared a lot of the same "one note" bass that you hear with most subwoofer demo setups (and most living rooms).

E-Stat
09-06-2006, 04:21 PM
A subwoofer essentially turns a 2-way speaker into a 3-way speaker.
Or a 1-way into a 2-way. Which I find to be a problem with the full range bipolars in my music system. Successfully matching direct radiator subs to large bipolars is darn near impossible in my experience. On the other hand, like your mains they have good response to the high 20s. I was able, however, to blend a pair of powered subs with the Polk mains in the HT system to my liking. In that case, it benefited from going to a three-way system.


In my setup, cost and space keep the sub out more than marginal sound improvements.
Ditto. If I had the space and budget, however, for the matching Sound Lab UB-1s...


rw

JoeE SP9
09-07-2006, 08:49 PM
With the meager sound reproducers I'm forced to use a sub woofer is almost a necessity. I use 2 placed very close to my ESL's and crossed over at 80Hz. This has turned my 1-way speakers into 2-way's. I rarely hear the discontinuities in the sound and then only if I'm listening for them. What's a guy to do? I've got to have my bass.:ihih: