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Hyfi
09-05-2006, 03:43 PM
This is my first attempt with HT. When I ordered what I needed to complete my system, I had them throw in a MonsterCable Monster Bass 100. After putting together the system and running the EZQ setup, I started to watch movies and listen to some 5 channel stereo to break in my newly added Center and Sub.

My main system is a Tube Pre, Stratos modded amp driving Dynaudio 82s, so I have good detailed bass for comparison. The sub is a Mirage 12 sub that was being discontinued and a great price. The bass I was getting while running the HT setup (which at this time includes Pre-out to my main system to drive the Fronts) was pretty much mush. Plenty deep and room rattling but no detail.

I happened to order some Audioquest Sidewinder cables to hook up all my components and had also ordered a 3 meter pair that ended up backordered and I forgot all about them. Last week they showed up but I realy didn't need them anymore so I decided to swap out the Sub cable for one of the Sidewinders.

So, I got my answer as to what happens when you put a better Sub cable in place. Now there is detail along with slam. Replacing the Monster cable was a great thing to do but now I am curious as to how far I can go with this. Is there a price point where I would just be wasting time and money or are there cables that would increase the clarity of my sub to the degree the Sidewinder did? Obviously, one does not need to use a Sub only cable as we are led to believe.

Any comments or ideas would be appreciated.

Brian

kelsci
09-05-2006, 04:43 PM
Hi Hyfi; you made a great investment in the Mirage S-12 sub. My brother has that unit with the Mirage Omnistat satellites. It is terrific. He has a monster sub-cable(possibly a 100)on it. One thing that affected the bass was the quality of the dvd player. A panasonic F87 changer nor a Pioneer Dv-525 could not cut the audio mustard on that sub against the superb sounding Pioneer Dv-37. Generally, I have found over the years that with higher end systems, one requires quality hardware to have that system play well.

Taking his sub cable to my system which consists of cheaper components, I did not care for its performance. I did purchase a AR APO52 cable. I like its performance greatly for bass response quality and imaging. I have tried a multitude of different audio only cables and some 75 ohm coaxial cables on this Klipsch SW-10ll that I use. I had one old radio shack audio cable that even made a half-way decent sub cable. 75 ohm cables did not cut the mustard. I have heard of Audioquest cables. If these sidewinders are designated sub-cables and in fact you find they perform well over the Monster 100, I would stick with them. You could end up with an addiction of buying 10 zillion cables playing Mr. Wizard and driving yourself crazy trying to figure is A better than B better than C. yada, yada, yada.

This may sound stupid but it may not be so stupid. Monster cables generally have a directional arrow on their cables. Make sure the tip of the arrow goes into the input of your sub. The back of the arrow should go into your receivers sub output. There seems to be a phase anomaly involved with subwoofers that I do not quite understand but it is there. On the same token, with any sub cable you use, if you can, try it one way and then another. If you hear a difference, put a sticker on that cord indicating which end to put into the receiver and which end to put into the sub-input. Nearly everything I tried had a polarity issue and could make or break the sound of a system.

JoeE SP9
09-06-2006, 08:08 AM
This is my first attempt with HT. When I ordered what I needed to complete my system, I had them throw in a MonsterCable Monster Bass 100. After putting together the system and running the EZQ setup, I started to watch movies and listen to some 5 channel stereo to break in my newly added Center and Sub.

My main system is a Tube Pre, Stratos modded amp driving Dynaudio 82s, so I have good detailed bass for comparison. The sub is a Mirage 12 sub that was being discontinued and a great price. The bass I was getting while running the HT setup (which at this time includes Pre-out to my main system to drive the Fronts) was pretty much mush. Plenty deep and room rattling but no detail.

I happened to order some Audioquest Sidewinder cables to hook up all my components and had also ordered a 3 meter pair that ended up backordered and I forgot all about them. Last week they showed up but I realy didn't need them anymore so I decided to swap out the Sub cable for one of the Sidewinders.

So, I got my answer as to what happens when you put a better Sub cable in place. Now there is detail along with slam. Replacing the Monster cable was a great thing to do but now I am curious as to how far I can go with this. Is there a price point where I would just be wasting time and money or are there cables that would increase the clarity of my sub to the degree the Sidewinder did? Obviously, one does not need to use a Sub only cable as we are led to believe.

Any comments or ideas would be appreciated.

Brian


It would seem you have discovered what all the objectivists say is not possible. Different cables do sound different. I have included the url to Fatwyre. It is local to you and I. New Hope to be precise. You can try a variety of different cables from them. They have an excellent return policy and have lots of used cable from various manufacturers. They are straight up people. As for how far to go with cables. There are cables that cost as much as your gear. I don't recommend them but that is your decision. Cables require some experimenting to find the ones that best suit your gear and ears. Fatwyre's return policy allows this. :cool:

http://www.fatwyre.com/

Resident Loser
09-06-2006, 08:45 AM
It would seem you have discovered what all the objectivists say is not possible. Different cables do sound different.

...continued misinformation to which this objectivist responds: different isn't necessarily correct...just different...

To expand:

"... any difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...

...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence, which is subject to a vast array of potential biases, that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge...."

jimHJJ(...just for the record...)

Woochifer
09-06-2006, 08:55 AM
Have you actually done this comparison without knowing whether or not a cable actually got swapped out? Anytime I've ever done a blind comparison, it significantly reduced the magnitude of whatever perceived differences I thought that I had heard. Also, did you reposition your sub or seated position by more than a few inches when you swapped out the cable? Any changes in positioning can significantly alter the tonal response in the bass range.

In the lower frequencies, any differences that a subwoofer cable would presumably make are usually not measurable. I will say that a decent interconnect will provide better shielding from outside interference than an OEM cable will, which can make an audible difference depending on the conditions. But, otherwise the bass range does not require as much bandwidth. This is why some hardcore audiophiles that otherwise eschew any kind of signal processing on the main channels will use EQs or DSPs for subwoofer calibration.

And as you go further into that bass range, the room itself becomes a more and more significant factor. The acoustical effects that a room creates are clearly audible and verifiable through measurements. The short room dimensions on a small to medium sized room will alternately create boomy peaks at some frequencies and cancellations at others. Something as simple as using a parametric equalizer to dial down the largest peaks will significantly cut down on any boominess you hear and even out the overall bass response. A parametric EQ can cost as little as $100, and deliver far greater system improvement than any cable ever can. Fortunately, in your case, the Sidewinder is not an especially expensive cable, so you're not in that ridiculous range where the cable costs nearly as much as the subwoofer itself.

kexodusc
09-06-2006, 09:53 AM
I'm using the green cable of an old Component video cable trio in my new sub...works as well as the ol' Monster 300 cable I have...picture on the sub is terrible though...

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-06-2006, 11:46 AM
...continued misinformation to which this objectivist responds: different isn't necessarily correct...just different...

To expand:

"... any difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...

...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence, which is subject to a vast array of potential biases, that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge...."

jimHJJ(...just for the record...)

I agree with this wholehearedly. After sitting for hours listening to Ray Kimbers cable, I concluded that there was some wires that sounded DIFFERENT, but not necessarily better than the other. At other times I could not discern a difference at all between some of his designs, even though he said there was.


A panasonic F87 changer nor a Pioneer Dv-525 could not cut the audio mustard on that sub against the superb sounding Pioneer Dv-37. Generally, I have found over the years that with higher end systems, one requires quality hardware to have that system play well.

Kel,
I find this statement rather curious in light of the fact that I own a F87 and its bass detail is on par with my Sony upconverting SACD DVD player. And considering the fact that ALL DD and Dts chipsets are standardized, this is really no performance benefits just because the player is different. What would produce a difference in bass is how bass management is implemented within the reciever, not the player itself.

Hyfi
09-06-2006, 01:33 PM
It would seem you have discovered what all the objectivists say is not possible. Different cables do sound different. I have included the url to Fatwyre. It is local to you and I. New Hope to be precise. You can try a variety of different cables from them. They have an excellent return policy and have lots of used cable from various manufacturers. They are straight up people. As for how far to go with cables. There are cables that cost as much as your gear. I don't recommend them but that is your decision. Cables require some experimenting to find the ones that best suit your gear and ears. Fatwyre's return policy allows this. :cool:

http://www.fatwyre.com/

Fatwyre has many names. I actually went to pay them a visit when they first opened in New Hope. That was before they really had any showroom or took walk-ins. They were very nice to me though and spent an hour talking about cables among other things. I did not purchase anything at that time but since you reminded me, I may borrow a few for trial. I won't let the famous NaySayers sway my experience. I spent enough time a few years back on the Cables board listening to those who would have me use the $1.99 interconnects on High End equipment because they can not hear good or they only believe what they can see on paper. I won't let this turn into an argument, hopefully, since I have played around with plenty of cables over the years and can hear differences between what I have now and what came in the boxes. I was just wondering if people saw similar results with Sub cables as they do with Interconnects. I played Bass for many years and over several system upgrades could tell the difference in bass detail and overal quality. I can assure you it does not take anything special to hear the difference between mush and individual notes. I realize there are many who can not or just do not want to. The Naysayers are indeed entitled to their opinion but I feel sorry for them since their hearing is so greatly impared.

Brian

Hyfi
09-06-2006, 01:37 PM
Hi Hyfi; you made a great investment in the Mirage S-12 sub. My brother has that unit with the Mirage Omnistat satellites. It is terrific. He has a monster sub-cable(possibly a 100)on it. One thing that affected the bass was the quality of the dvd player. A panasonic F87 changer nor a Pioneer Dv-525 could not cut the audio mustard on that sub against the superb sounding Pioneer Dv-37. Generally, I have found over the years that with higher end systems, one requires quality hardware to have that system play well.

Taking his sub cable to my system which consists of cheaper components, I did not care for its performance. I did purchase a AR APO52 cable. I like its performance greatly for bass response quality and imaging. I have tried a multitude of different audio only cables and some 75 ohm coaxial cables on this Klipsch SW-10ll that I use. I had one old radio shack audio cable that even made a half-way decent sub cable. 75 ohm cables did not cut the mustard. I have heard of Audioquest cables. If these sidewinders are designated sub-cables and in fact you find they perform well over the Monster 100, I would stick with them. You could end up with an addiction of buying 10 zillion cables playing Mr. Wizard and driving yourself crazy trying to figure is A better than B better than C. yada, yada, yada.

This may sound stupid but it may not be so stupid. Monster cables generally have a directional arrow on their cables. Make sure the tip of the arrow goes into the input of your sub. The back of the arrow should go into your receivers sub output. There seems to be a phase anomaly involved with subwoofers that I do not quite understand but it is there. On the same token, with any sub cable you use, if you can, try it one way and then another. If you hear a difference, put a sticker on that cord indicating which end to put into the receiver and which end to put into the sub-input. Nearly everything I tried had a polarity issue and could make or break the sound of a system.

The Audioquest Sidewinders are not Sub cables but rather entry level HE interconnects. That is why I was so surprised as we are all led to believe you have to use a dedicated Sub cable because they are magically different that an interconnect cable. I guess I just proved a point that any quality cable will sound better than any crap cable whether it is Sub specific or not.

GMichael
09-06-2006, 01:58 PM
I'm using the green cable of an old Component video cable trio in my new sub...works as well as the ol' Monster 300 cable I have...picture on the sub is terrible though...

I did this for awhile also. But I used the yellow cable from a composite set. Worked fine till I got the upgrade bug and put in a high priced cable. Didn't hear a difference.

Smokey
09-06-2006, 05:02 PM
To narrow down search for cable, one have to know exactly what they want from a cable, or what to look for in a cable.

For sub cables, look for low frequency shielding property of cable. Double braid are preferable for sub cables.

For IC cable, look for good low and radio/high frequency shielding property such as foil/braid combination. Low capacitance and resistance narrow down the search even further. And good dielectric and good connection zero in on the cable you want.

The above approach will be much more fruitful than just pick a cable randomly, or by name :)

kelsci
09-07-2006, 10:01 AM
Your Lordship, Sir TT; Nice to hear from you. I need to only correct one thing. His Panasonic unit is a F84. I do not think that these DD and DTS standardized chipsets are the thing making a difference here between his F84, the DV-525 and the DV-37. Decoding as far as detail and imaging were all about the same in each player. No changes were made to my brothers Mirage speaker system nor his Marantz 5400 receiver(bass management is all SML with sub set to 80hz) in the test. Even if he pushed up the bass in the MIrage sub, it would have not helped the situation. In fact the sub was blending fine during the test. In playing dvd movies in 5.1, the DV-37 is a wonderbar in audio reproduction against the other machines. I have had the 525 play on my system and it plays fine to me.

Back in the 70s, he had a powerful Kenwood stereo amp with two Bic Venturi Form 6(I believe) floorstanders. He used a Shure V15-type 3 cartidge on this system. I was using a Fisher X-100 tube amp on my system with two Marantz Imp 6-G speakers with a Shure m95-ED cartridge. One day, I used his cartridge on my system. There was little difference between the two. I then tried the M91ED on his system. It sounded like mud. His system demanded a better quality cartridge and as such in needed the V15-3.

I know from the list of your equipment and your postings thru the years that you have a sophistacated set-up. But you do not have a DV-37 in your possession to know whether what I have said is true. Last week, I had the opportunity to look and play with some high definition televisions. I was so psychologically affected from what I saw because when I got home and looked at my great 20 inch Sony Trinitron that I use in my living room, it looked disgusting.

I will take one up on the video performance of the DV-37 and the F-84 in interlaced mode through component inputs on a 27 inch toshiba FST tv set. The one-two three count goes to the Pioneer for its overall picture quality and image stabilization. The F-84 is great but the DV-37 is fantastic.

Fergymunster
09-07-2006, 04:04 PM
The Audioquest Sidewinders are not Sub cables but rather entry level HE interconnects. That is why I was so surprised as we are all led to believe you have to use a dedicated Sub cable because they are magically different that an interconnect cable. I guess I just proved a point that any quality cable will sound better than any crap cable whether it is Sub specific or not.
Hi Hyfi,I own the Mirage Omni S8 sub and found it a great buy as well.Your Mirage should have an LFE terminal and if that route is possible I would recommened the Audioquest sub 1 sub cable.It's simulor to the King Cobra interconnect in certain aspects.It works well with my Mirage making it shine to it's potentail.Just a thought,Good luck.

JoeE SP9
09-08-2006, 09:45 AM
The Audioquest Sidewinders are not Sub cables but rather entry level HE interconnects. That is why I was so surprised as we are all led to believe you have to use a dedicated Sub cable because they are magically different that an interconnect cable. I guess I just proved a point that any quality cable will sound better than any crap cable whether it is Sub specific or not.

I agree with you 100%. I didn't hear differences in cables until my gear (speakers specifically) got good enough to hear the difference. What I hear or don't hear is not always immediately evident. Sometimes it takes days or weeks to hear and acknowledge differences. They are there!:ihih:

Hyfi
09-08-2006, 03:14 PM
Hi Hyfi,I own the Mirage Omni S8 sub and found it a great buy as well.Your Mirage should have an LFE terminal and if that route is possible I would recommened the Audioquest sub 1 sub cable.It's simulor to the King Cobra interconnect in certain aspects.It works well with my Mirage making it shine to it's potentail.Just a thought,Good luck.

Hey, thanks for the feedback. I just looked at the Audioquest Sub cables. It would appear that the Sub-X cable is pretty much a Sidewinder with a different color jacket.

The Sub-1 would be in my budget so I may give this a try.

Hyfi

Hyfi
09-08-2006, 03:16 PM
I agree with you 100%. I didn't hear differences in cables until my gear (speakers specifically) got good enough to hear the difference. What I hear or don't hear is not always immediately evident. Sometimes it takes days or weeks to hear and acknowledge differences. They are there!:ihih:

OMG Don't let the Red & Black Brigade hear you say that!

Hyfi

Fergymunster
09-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Hey, thanks for the feedback. I just looked at the Audioquest Sub cables. It would appear that the Sub-X cable is pretty much a Sidewinder with a different color jacket.

The Sub-1 would be in my budget so I may give this a try.

Hyfi
Great,the sub 1 is an excellent choice,you won't be disappointed if you choose that.Good luck.

Fergymunster
09-08-2006, 07:47 PM
Great,the sub 1 is an excellent choice,you won't be disappointed if you choose that.Good luck.
I almost forgot,you live near me.Tweeter at the Montgomeryville Mall has a whole line of Audioquest products in stock.They have the sub 1 there but only in 3 meter lengh.If that's ok then you could try it for 30 days to see if you like it,if not then just return it.Worth checking out and only a short distance from you.Good luck.

JoeE SP9
09-09-2006, 09:02 AM
OMG Don't let the Red & Black Brigade hear you say that!

Hyfi
I'm too old to worry about what others can't or won't hear.:ihih:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-10-2006, 06:14 AM
I'm too old to worry about what others can't or won't hear.:ihih:

You make it sound like we are being stubborn. Its not really a question of can't or won't, but is it better or worse. Sometimes its I can't. Wire is such a subjective thing that there are no absolutes. What you might recoemmend as good wire I might not like the sound of it, or might not hear any difference from my last speaker wire or cable.

JoeE SP9
09-10-2006, 06:15 PM
You make it sound like we are being stubborn. Its not really a question of can't or won't, but is it better or worse. Sometimes its I can't. Wire is such a subjective thing that there are no absolutes. What you might recoemmend as good wire I might not like the sound of it, or might not hear any difference from my last speaker wire or cable.

Better or worse is just as subjective as change or no change. Admitting that one wire works or sounds better is saying they can make a difference. Your response places you firmly out of the Red & Black Brigade.:ihih:

Smokey
09-10-2006, 07:20 PM
Better or worse is just as subjective as change or no change. Admitting that one wire works or sounds better is saying they can make a difference. Your response places you firmly out of the Red & Black Brigade.:ihih:

I donít think anybody around here believes that cables doesnít make a difference. Ofcourse there will be difference between $5 IC cable from walmart and quality Belden cables.

The trick here is to find most transparent quality cable And the only way to achieve this goal is objectively as it will be almost next to impossible to do it subjectively (listening).

jrhymeammo
09-10-2006, 08:12 PM
I still have WireWorld Oasis III+ up for a sale. Nobody's been interested for some reason. WHY!!!!!!!!
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18148

I think I'll post it on Audiogon. I figured this was a great place, since HT is majority of members' main interest.

Maybe I'll send a private message to every single members on AR. Old fashion door-2-door with a modern twist.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-11-2006, 05:13 AM
Better or worse is just as subjective as change or no change. Admitting that one wire works or sounds better is saying they can make a difference. Your response places you firmly out of the Red & Black Brigade.:ihih:

What exactly is your interpretation of difference? In the light of modes and nodes of more than 15-20dbs in any given room, do you think that wire can make a difference under those conditions?. Until a person fully tweaks the room first, I do not care what cables you put in your system, it will not be audible to the ears. Also whether or not you can hear any differences under the typical background level of most rooms is suspect. If you are going to be able to hear any differences, the room would have to be as quiet as a THX certified theater or dubbing stage. I know of only a very few rooms that can reach that level, and they have all been built from the ground up.

There are so many variables that have to be dealt with before I believe there is a audible difference to wires. I do not think even 5% of rooms even meet that level, so I am always suspect when somebody makes any claims about the audible qualities of any wires.

JoeE SP9
09-11-2006, 09:37 AM
What exactly is your interpretation of difference? In the light of modes and nodes of more than 15-20dbs in any given room, do you think that wire can make a difference under those conditions?. Until a person fully tweaks the room first, I do not care what cables you put in your system, it will not be audible to the ears. Also whether or not you can hear any differences under the typical background level of most rooms is suspect. If you are going to be able to hear any differences, the room would have to be as quiet as a THX certified theater or dubbing stage. I know of only a very few rooms that can reach that level, and they have all been built from the ground up.

There are so many variables that have to be dealt with before I believe there is a audible difference to wires. I do not think even 5% of rooms even meet that level, so I am always suspect when somebody makes any claims about the audible qualities of any wires.

My room has been fully tweaked. I knocked down a wall in my house to make the dimensional proportions correct. I have room treatments and have used test instruments (some rented) to make the room as neutral as possible.
In the first place this thread was started by HyFi. He stated that he heard a difference in cables. I only agreed with him. Frankly I'm tired of people telling me and others what they can and can't hear. Who died and made you "God".:ciappa:

E-Stat
09-11-2006, 10:25 AM
What exactly is your interpretation of difference?
I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.


In the light of modes and nodes of more than 15-20dbs in any given room, do you think that wire can make a difference under those conditions?.
Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.


Until a person fully tweaks the room first, I do not care what cables you put in your system, it will not be audible to the ears.
Same answer to same previous assertion.


There are so many variables that have to be dealt with before I believe there is a audible difference to wires. I do not think even 5% of rooms even meet that level, so I am always suspect when somebody makes any claims about the audible qualities of any wires.
I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rw

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-11-2006, 11:26 AM
I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.

E,
Granted, you represent the 1 percentile that has probably paid attention to the rooms background noise level, and early reflection amplitude. However too many others do not, and make simular claims to cable performance that in reality are not possible in their rooms with little, or no control.



Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.

The effects of a mode can extend well into the upper frequencies my masking their their output. I know you understand that if I have a mode that is 15db higher than the rest of the frequencies at any given time, a masking effect will occur. Also early and late reflections occur at all frequencies, and sometimes are very audible based on amplitude. So you can have acoustical problems that extend into the upper frequencies that prevent any meaningful comparison of wires. Since most folks do not bother to treat their rooms, comparisons in most rooms are contaminated by background noise and acoustical problems and therefore can be rendered unreliable and ineffective.






I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rw

If you listen mostly to multichannel music, then headphones are useless.

E-Stat
09-11-2006, 12:36 PM
However too many others do not, and make simular claims to cable performance that in reality are not possible in their rooms with little, or no control.
Ok. I just never say never.


Also early and late reflections occur at all frequencies, and sometimes are very audible based on amplitude. So you can have acoustical problems that extend into the upper frequencies that prevent any meaningful comparison of wires.
That is especially the case with bipolars like Joe and I both use. The back wave must be controlled so as to not confuse the main image.


Since most folks do not bother to treat their rooms, comparisons in most rooms are contaminated by background noise and acoustical problems and therefore can be rendered unreliable and ineffective.
Nothing to disagree about here. At the very least, I'm all about buying a Rat Shack SPL meter and a test CD with bass decades for the bottom three octaves or so.

I once had a somewhat strained conversation with Woodman on the potential benefits of using after market power cords. He used lots of underlines. He resolutely couldn't imagine how such could be. Since I am a computer engineer and not an electrical engineer, I rely on experiential evidence instead. Although he never would talk about specific gear, I strongly suspect our exposure was very different. He likewise took an absolutist standpoint and attempted a bad analogy with a gas pump.

"When I try to tell them that this is just a physical impossibility, that there is simply nothing that a power cord can do that will have the slightest ompact on the output of the device in question ... well, you know the rest of the story."

Yes I do. The use of theoretical bigotry devoid of relevant experience. Search for "buick" by me if you want to read the posts.

rw

JoeE SP9
09-11-2006, 05:40 PM
Years ago when I got my BSEE I did not have believe that wires and cables could sound different. I would have slapped someone who tried to tell me a power cord could make something sound different. Since then I got my MSIT and learned a lot about how things sound.
I now know that everything can make a difference. Different wires and cables sound different and power cords really do make a difference. Along the way I've learned the importance of the room. I've spent considerable time and money treating my listening room to be as neutral as possible.
There are some things I'm skeptical about but I've learned to give things a listen. I don't reject something because I don't understand why it does or doesn't do what it's claimed to do. I let my ears be the judge. When I left the "Julian Hirsch" all things sound the same school my system started sounding better and I started listening to more music.
Listening more is the best indicator that your system is better. If it sounds better to you, then it is. Remember, the listening experience is subjective. All those objectivists who say I am deluding myself can "eat my shorts". I spend my money any way I want. When they start supporting my purchases with their funds then they can have a say in what I buy. Until then it's up to them to prove I'm not hearing what I say, not the opposite.:ihih:

Hyfi
09-12-2006, 03:27 AM
Sorry guys, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a dreaded debate between the Black & Red Brigade and the rest of us. I was just trying to get some opinions on Sub cables and others experiences with different Sub cables. It appears that anywhere a question like this is asked, people like to chime in to tell others they are nuts, either because they can hear a difference or they can't. Niether of which address the original question or theme of the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I spent a year or two posting and argueing on the cable board a few years back and these discussions got plenty heated and never any resolution or definitive answer one way or the other. Luckily, a few people finally gave up thier crusade for deafness and ignorance and went back to listening to their transistor radios and left those who believe be.

I am not hear to argue with anyone about what I can hear or what someone else can't hear. I just wanted some opinions on Sub cables from those who have tried different ones and could offer reasonable suggestions. I figure, if you can't address the original question without the standard argument, don't reply to it. Out of the nearly 20 replies to the thread, I think I came away with one or two real replies to my question.

Carry on........

markw
09-12-2006, 05:25 AM
You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

As far as I care, you might as well said you got your info from Elvis. Coming from you, I could honestly say that I think you really believe it. But, I won't argue with you. That would be like trying to convince someone with science and facts that their chosen religion is bogus. Facts can't compete with beliefs.

I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different. After all, they only pass a range of m oh, maybe 80 - 100 hz or so. That's almost DC, and that's no problem for virtually any cable to pass with no degradation.

Now, if you were talking much, much higher frequencies you might have a case. These I will discuss without prejudice. I worked with microwaves and believe me, here signal transfer does make a measurable difference.

But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.

markw
09-12-2006, 05:51 AM
I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.


Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.


Same answer to same previous assertion.


I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rwWe're talkin' subwoofer cables here. If it improves the female voice, you've got other problems there. ;)

JoeE SP9
09-12-2006, 07:29 AM
Sorry guys, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a dreaded debate between the Black & Red Brigade and the rest of us. I was just trying to get some opinions on Sub cables and others experiences with different Sub cables. It appears that anywhere a question like this is asked, people like to chime in to tell others they are nuts, either because they can hear a difference or they can't. Niether of which address the original question or theme of the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I spent a year or two posting and argueing on the cable board a few years back and these discussions got plenty heated and never any resolution or definitive answer one way or the other. Luckily, a few people finally gave up thier crusade for deafness and ignorance and went back to listening to their transistor radios and left those who believe be.

I am not hear to argue with anyone about what I can hear or what someone else can't hear. I just wanted some opinions on Sub cables from those who have tried different ones and could offer reasonable suggestions. I figure, if you can't address the original question without the standard argument, don't reply to it. Out of the nearly 20 replies to the thread, I think I came away with one or two real replies to my question.

Carry on........
I hear differences in cables. Trying a selection of cables to find what best suits your own ears and gear is the only way to satisfy yourself. This is why I originally suggested Fatwhyre. Try some cables. Find what you like best and be done with it. Go with your own ears and gut feeling. If you spend an enornous amount of cash so what. It's your money and last time I checked this was still America. You know, the land where you can spend your money on what you want!:ihih:

Fergymunster
09-12-2006, 09:12 AM
You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

As far as I care, you might as well said you got your info from Elvis. Coming from you, I could honestly say that I think you really believe it. But, I won't argue with you. That would be like trying to convince someone with science and facts that their chosen religion is bogus. Facts can't compete with beliefs.

I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different. After all, they only pass a range of m oh, maybe 80 - 100 hz or so. That's almost DC, and that's no problem for virtually any cable to pass with no degradation.

Now, if you were talking much, much higher frequencies you might have a case. These I will discuss without prejudice. I worked with microwaves and believe me, here signal transfer does make a measurable difference.

But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.
I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-12-2006, 09:42 AM
I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..

You call this angry?? Go to the cable forum, this is Disneyland in comparison to that. Besides nobody is angry at anyone, at least not from this end

markw
09-12-2006, 09:45 AM
I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..This is a free country and everyone is free to believe what they want, even though it flies in the face of sciences, logic, and reality as long as others can believe the opposite.

After all, everyone needs to make a living, even the guys who sell white van speakers, right? After all, i'm sure many people who bought 'em love 'em and believe they got a great deal. Of course, those who know better just snicker...

E-Stat
09-12-2006, 09:50 AM
We're talkin' subwoofer cables here. If it improves the female voice, you've got other problems there. ;)
Read Sir TT's question again to which I responded.

rw

markw
09-12-2006, 10:38 AM
Read Sir TT's question again to which I responded.My response top you was half in jest as this initially started out as a subwoofer cable thread. ...and that is the light in which my participatition here should be viewed.

E-Stat
09-12-2006, 10:53 AM
...and that is the light in which my participatition here should be viewed.
I saw the winking smiley, but wanted to make my position clear.

Potentially, the use of high capacitance or poorly shielded cables could load down the input of an amp and/or pass RFI to it if the outputs were in parallel affecting the full range part. FWIW, I don't think much about the ICs used going from the LFE output on my HT receiver to the powered subs. Because it is a separate circuit with a variable low pass filter, it works independently of the other five channels.


rw

markw
09-12-2006, 11:04 AM
Potentially, the use of high capacitance or poorly shielded cables could load down the input of an amp and/or pass RFI to it if the outputs were in parallel affecting the full range part. FWIW, I don't think much about the ICs used going from the LFE output on my HT receiver to the powered subs. Because it is a separate circuit with a variable low pass filter, it works independently of the other five channels.Potentially, I think you're grasping at straws here. Gee, It seems I've heard that term "high capacitance cables" just a few weeks ago. In fact, I recall being the one to bring it up. Have you ever heard of high capacitance cables as being common enough on the market to be an issue within the past thirty or so years?

No, sub specific cables are a nice way to make money. Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".

E-Stat
09-12-2006, 11:16 AM
Have you ever heard of high capacitance cables as being common enough on the market to be an issue within the past thirty or so years?
If, like me you choose to not run an active preamp in your setup and/or use long IC runs, then the answer is yes. You'll roll off the top.


Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".
Agreed.

rw

markw
09-12-2006, 11:36 AM
If, like me you choose to not run an active preamp in your setup and/or use long IC runs, then the answer is yes. You'll roll off the top.The top of what? Remember, we're tawkin' subwoofers here.



Agreed.Thanks, I'm just funnin' ya.

Fergymunster
09-12-2006, 01:22 PM
You call this angry?? Go to the cable forum, this is Disneyland in comparison to that. Besides nobody is angry at anyone, at least not from this end
I'm a member of Audio Asylum as well.I recently acquired a passion for music and no doubt learned alot from both forums.Maybe I'm just tired of the constant bickering back in forth about this that and the other thing and in the end nobody learns little if anything.For me I find it important to beleive about 1/4 of what people are saying and after the debate is over is when I sort it all out and see what the truth is relevant to me .That's all.P.S.1 year experience.

Hyfi
09-12-2006, 05:52 PM
You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

No. If I wanted to argue or start a flame war, I would have posted something subjective on the Cable Forum where the sharks are lurking.


No, sub specific cables are a nice way to make money. Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".

If you re-read my original post, I said: "Last week they showed up but I realy didn't need them anymore so I decided to swap out the Sub cable for one of the Sidewinders."

Then I said the following at the end: " Obviously, one does not need to use a Sub only cable as we are led to believe."


I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different.

I said I swapped an AudioQuest Sidewinder IC for a Monster Bass 100 SUB CABLE. I have a hard time comparing those two cables in construction or similarity but for the fact that they had similar looking little plugs on the ends.


But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.


This is a free country and everyone is free to believe what they want, even though it flies in the face of sciences, logic, and reality as long as others can believe the opposite.

I'm sure you have absolutly no faith or spiritual beliefs in your life as they are intangable and there is no hard evidence either way. I guess it would even be hard to believe in yourself at times.


Of course, those who know better just snicker...

Now who came here to start the Shiite Storm? Duh'Oh!!

markw
09-13-2006, 05:06 AM
No. If I wanted to argue or start a flame war, I would have posted something subjective on the Cable Forum where the sharks are lurking.You think I buy that lame excuse? You knew you were initiating a cable post.

The fact that several of the posters gave you the benefit of a doubt and commented on the subwoofer, not the cable, should have given you a clue but no, you kept dragging the subject back to cables. ...and yet in the post above you said that you purposely avoided the cable forum. Why is that?

You are a sneaky one, ain't cha?


I'm sure you have absolutly no faith or spiritual beliefs in your life as they are intangable and there is no hard evidence either way. I guess it would even be hard to believe in yourself at times.Actually, I do believe in religion but not to tee point that I won't let medical science take over when needed. Blind faith is foolish and science can answer a lot more than some here give it credit for.


Now who came here to start the Shiite Storm? Duh'Oh!!Well, now that you mention it, wasn't it you that threw out this one-liner? Did you rally think nobody else was listening?


OMG Don't let the Red & Black Brigade hear you say that!So, since you invited articipation from people who don't share your views, but do share a caustic bent, here I am!

Boy, you are a disingenuous one.

If this is any indication of your honesty or observational abilities, I really, doubt anything you have to say.

jocko_nc
09-13-2006, 06:42 AM
I have two subs... Should I have special left-hand and right-hand cables? What if I accidently ran the left side with a right-hand cable? Will right-hand electrons pass through a left hand cable as well?

I'm worried about pions, muons, and all those little quarks. They come in right-hand and left-hand flavors, too. Some even have "personalities". If I measure the state of a particle passing through my cable, do I affect it. How am I supposed to get this right? Aaaarrrgggh!!!!!

jocko

Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-13-2006, 11:09 AM
I'm a member of Audio Asylum as well.I recently acquired a passion for music and no doubt learned alot from both forums.Maybe I'm just tired of the constant bickering back in forth about this that and the other thing and in the end nobody learns little if anything.For me I find it important to beleive about 1/4 of what people are saying and after the debate is over is when I sort it all out and see what the truth is relevant to me .That's all.P.S.1 year experience.

There are alot of people I really respect that believe they can hear differences in wire. I have been known to hear differences in sighted listening test, but I could not repeat these differences during DBT testing. I am also not in agreement that you have to sell the farm to get wire that performs well.

If one person could come up with one credible DBT that supports the theory that all wire sounds different, I would jump into this camp without reservations.

E-Stat
09-13-2006, 11:38 AM
Thanks, I'm just funnin' ya.
Thought so. You do understand paralleling capacitance.

rw

markw
09-13-2006, 11:59 AM
Thought so. You do understand paralleling capacitance.

rw..caps in parallel decreases capacitance. Putting them in series decreases it. ...although when I larned this stuff, they were called condensors.

edit: parallel increases, series decreases. opposite of resistance I thoughy I typoed here.

E-Stat
09-13-2006, 12:05 PM
..caps in parallel decreases capacitance.

You add them (http://www.csgnetwork.com/parallelcapacicalc.html)

rw

Fergymunster
09-13-2006, 12:16 PM
There are alot of people I really respect that believe they can hear differences in wire. I have been known to hear differences in sighted listening test, but I could not repeat these differences during DBT testing. I am also not in agreement that you have to sell the farm to get wire that performs well.

If one person could come up with one credible DBT that supports the theory that all wire sounds different, I would jump into this camp without reservations.
Take a look at my systems,they speak for themselves.

markw
09-13-2006, 12:40 PM
You add them (http://www.csgnetwork.com/parallelcapacicalc.html)

rwYup. I caught that on the way to class. Note my edit above.

markw
09-13-2006, 12:43 PM
Take a look at my systems,they speak for themselves.I've got a friend who owns some expensive cars but he doesn't know anything about 'em except the price and he still can't drive worth a damn. He likes showing them off.

Fergymunster
09-13-2006, 04:21 PM
I've got a friend who owns some expensive cars but he doesn't know anything about 'em except the price and he still can't drive worth a damn. He likes showing them off.
I couldn't agree more,isn't this what these forums are all about anyway.