Bi-Wiring?....Uhh....

[Cole_Guitar]

I am just getting started in this whole home theater stuff and my head has had all it can take. I have a Yamaha HTR-5660 receiver and want to bi-wire. I emailed Yamaha and asked them how, but my mind couldn't understand. DO ANY of you know how to bi-wire this receiver? I am wanting to buy the SX-HTB surround system from Fluance, and they can be bi-wired.

Do you run two sets of speaker wire from each terminal on the receiver or do they need to be seperate. This receiver has the Speaker A/B option. Which seems to be able to run two sets of main speakers (front left and right). Would I want to run one set of speaker wire to one set of the terminals on the speaker using the Speaker A option, and run one set of speaker wires to the other terminal on the speaker using the Speaker B option?

Please, Help ME!!! :confused: :mad: :confused:

[This Guy]

Putting two pairs of speaker wires into one speaker output is the same thing as using the left and right channels and the AB speaker output at the same time. Use the A/B to lessen the chance of having the positive and negative wires touch. Just to tell ya, you won't here a difference if you Bi wire the speakers. Bi-wiring is the same thing as getting a thicker gauge cable. I do understand you got some new speakers and you want to experiment with them, and so would I. So just be careful in making sure those positive and negative wires NEVER touch or you can say good by to your receiver.

-Joey

[Cole_Guitar]

Thanks for the input ThisGuy, My receiver actually has two outputs for front left and right speakers, one for speakers A and one for speakers B. I know this way would definitely minimize the chances of touching wires, if I was to bi-wire. i have a couple of questions. If if doesn't make a difference in sound why do companies configure the speakers to be bi-wired? Don't mind my ignorance, but I didn't quite understand the part about thicker guage wire. Could you maybe explain it more in-depth? Thanks again I really appreciate the inputs that I get. Nothing like positive criticism :D

[Beckman]

Don't mind my ignorance, but I didn't quite understand the part about thicker guage wire. Could you maybe explain it more in-depth? Thanks again I really appreciate the inputs that I get. Nothing like positive criticism :D

The resistance of the wire is inversly propotional to the cross sectional area of the wire. That is the thicker the wire, the less resistance it has. By using two wires this area is doubled. Less resistance means less attenuation in the signal. Also, two thinner wires have a lower capacitance or inductane(can't remember wich) than one wire of equal thickness.

All of these argument for biwiring are week since 12 or 14 AWG has no audible effects on the signal. I would just go out and buy a 100ft. a spool of 14 AWG cable for $30. It should be plenty of cable.

[Keith C]

I tried the whole bi-wire bit myself. Spent way too much money and got no improvement in sound watsoever....zip, zero, nothing...oh well live and learn. My current setup is still bi-wired, I suppose I like the way it looks. Well, to be honest, I waited too long and now I'm stuck with the cables. They do look nice though...This guy that used to hang here named eyespy told me it wouldn't work. I should have listened, turned out he was right. There was a big fight that day on the forum. Fight went on for days. Apparently some of the people here have really passionate feelings about speaker cable. The technical arguments went way over my head. They used words I never even heard of.

I like to listen to music and the wires didn't help my system at all. (I'm sharing my personal experience and not making a blanket statement on the wire issue.) Take what you like and leave the rest. Good luck.

Cheers!
Keith C

[This Guy]

As the previouspeople said, some people think Bi-wiring makes a difference, but the main reason for those two posts is for Bi-AMPING. Thise means you use two amplifiers, or two channels of an amplifier to drive the tweeter/midrange and the woofer(s) separetly. This can make speakers sound better because it's not just one amp trying to do all the frequencies. However if you do bi-amp and would have to buy an external crossover because bi-amping bypasses the internal crossover.

-Joey

[Cole_Guitar]

Going back to the receiver I have, Yamaha HTR-5660, it has a speaker A output and a speaker B output. If I use speaker A for one set of terminals and speaker B for the other set, could I achieve bi-amping, considering that speaker A and speaker B are two seperate outputs? Considering the internal crossover, it would still be cancelled with two seperate outputs? But the main question is can I acheive Bi-amping with one receiver? I was told of the Fluance speaker systems (which are capable of bi-wiring) SX-HTB, and I only have enough money right now to buy the speakers, and not enough to buy a subwoofer. I was hoping I could achieve more bass by bi-wiring the system. Just to let you know I have the receiver and no speakers, wanted to save a little and get some, so I have no idea about hooking up speakers. I only had enough at the time to get the receiver. I apologize again for my ignorance, and thank all for their patience and input.

[zapr]

.....You need a second amp to bi amp. You can biwire the way you discribed.I think some speakers may benefit from biwiring more than others. I tried it and noticed a slight change in the treble region. No change in the bass......Zapr

[This Guy]

no you can't bi amp with your receiver. When you use the A/B speaker outputs and the left and right speaker outputs at the same time, it's just going to stress them amp. The main reason for the A/B channels is for other room use when you are using the A/B OR the left and right channels. When using both of them the amp would see a 4 ohm load if you're using two 8 ohm speakers on each channel, and the amp will shut down sooner and probably at a lesser volume if the speaker has a major impediance dip. As zapr said you will need a second amp to Bi amp, although I do understand my previous post may have been a little confusing. So just connect them like you would if it only had one speaker terminal. Good luck with the speakers!

-Joey

[Cole_Guitar]

So here is the next question, after you guys have clearly made me realize that I shouldn't bi-wire :D. I was initially going to buy the AV-HTB from Fluance but then I saw the SX-HTB set. Do any of you guys know if it is wiser to buy the SX-HTB over the AV-HTB? It sounds as if they are a better deal, but I don't that much right now. Just wanted to hear input from people who know what they are talking about. Thanks for all the help!!!!!!

If any of you want to look at the web page to see what they are about it is www.fluance.com

[Audio Angel]

If you are really interesting in audible results from Bi-Wiring or Tri-Wiring the secret is to remove the crossover from the inside of the speaker and place it very near your amplifier output terminals. Run a short wire from the amplifier output to the crossover input. Run seperate and seperated wires from the crossover outputs to each speaker element.

No matter how many wire runs you may make, running seperate wires from the amplifer to a distant crossover produces questionable improvements because the filtering action is after the wire runs.

Try this simple test. Take two straight pins and connect wires from each pin to the (+) and (-) terminals of one of your speakers. Connect the other speaker using the standard bi-wire hookup. Poke the pins through the insulation of each of the wire runs going to the LF and HF elements of the speaker. You will hear the same signal coming down either wire run. It does not matter which speaker element wire you may listen to, as the filter components are at the speaker end of the wire. The above empirical test should dispell the back EMF theory as you can hear a full-range signal anywhere along the wire run to either speaker element. The back EMF signal has all that cable with which to interact. Some chocking of the EMF signal will occur -- the more resistance (smaller the wire) the more chocking due to the higher resistance, or in AC terms reactance. If you are using a heavy guage wire, the back EMF from the LF element just travels back to the amplifier where it reacts with the output stage and then back to the HF element along a long wire run before the crossover filter. This is why a high damping factor is important. A high damping factor does just that, it dampens the back EMF. Most transistor amplifier output stages have very high damping factors.

Doing the same pin poking test with the crossover near the amplifier with seperate wire runs to each of the speaker elements will produce quite different results since this places the filter components and filter action at the proper end of the wire run. Now poking the pins along any pair of wires will produce bass for the LF element, mid-range for the MF element and treble for the HF element. The back EMF phenomena is now isolated back to the crossover. Any EMF produced as the woofer recovers is now filtered from the mid-range and/or tweeter before it can interact in a long wire run.

Keep the connection length between the amplifier and the speaker's crossover as short as possible because you want the amplifier to "see" the crossover and the action of its filtering components with as little added wire resistance, inductance, and capacitance as possible. After the full-range signal is split into the approprate ranges for each of the speaker elements, the interaction of each speaker element will not find its way back to the amplifier as readily by way of seperate wire runs connected to a common point (the amplifier output terminals).

Try to keep each speaker element wire run seperated from the other wire runs by a few inches or so. If the wires become close enough to each other they will couple though their respective magnetic fields and defeat the purpose of Bi- or Tri-Wiring. Don't bind the speaker wires together. In this case, neat appearance is not approprate for good sound. Remember, preamps produce voltage gain, whereas power amplifiers produce current gains. It is the current factor in the signal that generates magnetic fields in the speaker wire. Given a long run with the wires parallel for several feet, a fraction of one signal will couple to the other wire. Best to just let them hang/lie loose and sort of go along in a random path. Don't get too hung up on this, but just don't tie all your speaker cables together.

If you are fusing any of the speaker elements, the fuse should be placed as physically close to the speaker as possible. The speaker fuse should not be at the amplifier terminals, it should be at the speaker terminals -- and it should be placed in the (+) positive side of the cable. This means a seperate fuse for each speaker element. I find that a powerful amplifier, capable of destroying the speaker, will control the speaker much better than an amplifier whos power rating is equal to the maximum the speaker will take. Use an over-powered amplifier and fuse the speaker to protect it from accidental burn-out. Think of it in these terms. If someone were to grab you and shake you who would be able to exibit more control over your body, someone of your weight or someone twice your weight? You see the more powerful amplifier will make the speaker cone go where the signal says, hence more dynamic and accurate reproduction, less back EMF distortion, much improved transient response and operation in a more linear part of the amplifier specification.

Place the crossover near the amplifier, seperate the wire runs, use a big amp and fuse the speaker at the speaker. The resulting realism is well-worth the occasional blown fuse and trouble of moving the crossover.

[Stu-r]

The speakers have to have connections for bi-amping ... two sets of terminals on the speaker. If you do, you can remove the straps on the speaker terminals and run a separate wire from the same amplifier terminal to each of the speaker terminals. Fluance recommends this as an intermediate level to bi-amping. I've tried it both ways with the Fluance SV-10 and there is an audible improvement with bi-wiring as thay recommend. There is a greater improvement with bi-amping them.

However, I also have a pair of SDAT SB-880 that have two strapped terminals that I think are meaningless. On the Fluance, when you remove the straps and drive only one pair of terminals, one part of the speaker (woofer or mid-hi) works and the other doesn't. On The SB-880 all drivers work. I think if I connected an amplifier to each terminal on the SB-880, I'd have fireworks. The SB-880 sounds great without tempting fate anyway.

[RGA]

Remember that some systems are not truly set-up for the use of biwiring they simply put the knobs on because that's the in fashion thing - some systems simply will not net you a positive result from bi-wiring.

Biamping? Tough call - Can work well but sometimes not - I would not really bother bi-wiring receivers but if it's cheap why not?

[theaudiohobby]

Remember that some systems are not truly set-up for the use of biwiring they simply put the knobs on because that's the in fashion thing - some systems simply will not net you a positive result from bi-wiring.

so true..I can think of one famous italian speaker maker who said he does not believing in biwiring yet some of his earlier models allowed for biwiring, net positive result zero.

[hermanv]

It is dangerous to over simplify or generalize. Many speakers have biwire options, many reputable cable companies sell biwire cables are thousands of users wrong?

Certainly heavier gauge wire makes sense, but it turns out that the woofer(s) take the lions share of any power (current). So in my system I use a nice heavy gauge copper pair for the woofers and a lighter gauge pure silver cable for the midrange and tweeters. It is possible a nice heavy gauge silver wire and non-biwire might sound the same but I can't afford that much pure silver. To me at least the silver plated copper wire sounds less enjoyable so I wired my system so it sounds best to me.

This is hardly the first speaker wiring in my system and I found that what used to sound fine is no longer acceptable when I upgrade some other component in my signal chain.

There is not one right answer. Enjoy the hobby, experiment, develop some audio buddies and swap equipement in and out of each others systems and swap knowledge. :)

[Worf101]

So here is the next question, after you guys have clearly made me realize that I shouldn't bi-wire :D. I was initially going to buy the AV-HTB from Fluance but then I saw the SX-HTB set. Do any of you guys know if it is wiser to buy the SX-HTB over the AV-HTB? It sounds as if they are a better deal, but I don't that much right now. Just wanted to hear input from people who know what they are talking about. Thanks for all the help!!!!!!

If any of you want to look at the web page to see what they are about it is www.fluance.com

Not a fan of Fluance... low level stuff from Canada. They look good but are not all they appear. They sould like hot cakes on Ebay for years but I've a friend from work who bought them before asking me. I bought a pair of old EPI 100's over to his house did a blind test with them and his speaks. Needless to say he was upset when the test ended an hour or so later... Save some mone and go with Axiom or Aperion or Hsu is you must have a HT speaker package..

Da Worfster :cool: