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Sheila_Israel
08-26-2006, 04:57 PM
While you are reading this, the Iranian reactor produces enriched bomb-grade uranium. Terrorists can deliver that bomb to your city, and it can kill you and your children. Yet the government does nothing.

Do we demand violence? Not in any common sense. Similarly, police use force to arrest criminals in order to stop violence.

But Iran is not a criminal? Wrong. Iran has proven malicious intent. Iran, under the current regime, conducted many terrorist bombings in the West, and sponsors deadly terrorists. Iranian leaders repeatedly called for fight against the United States and annihilation of Israel.

Perhaps Iran needs nuclear weapons for self-defense? No. Iran already bullies the Middle East with its huge conventional army. No country threatens Iran.

Since the eighth-century jihad and the Ottoman army at the gates of Vienna, the West has never been exposed to such threat. Iranís several nuclear bombs can inflict more damage on America than the World War II. Never before the Islamic fundamentalists who hate the West and dream of attacking it had military might of apocalyptic dimensions. Are you crazy to doubt they will use the bomb?

We call on the United States: Do not hesitate. Protect your people. Protect your allies. Destroy the Iranian reactor!

To sign the petition, visit http://terrorismisrael.com/nuclear_iran.htm

trollgirl
08-27-2006, 08:26 AM
No country threatens Iran.

The above is the only part of your post I care to deal with directly, as the rest is pure propaganda. The quote is a LIE! Do you not know that even now, the United States and Jewish-Occupied Palestine are preparing to nuke Iran?? Ask yourself, what is better, that Iran MIGHT nuke the West, or that the West certainly WILL nuke Iran? The whole world is already too contaminated with depleted uranium, and the leaders only want to add to it. There is just no reason for Iran to be anyone's enemy, but some folks have an inner craving to have one, for their own sick purposes, profit, or whatever. Will the entire world go down to extinction because of one small mideast nation's paranoia? You can not fight or wage war for peace, you must practice peace for peace. Further, you can not set up the Kingdom with the arm of flesh - every nation which has tried has gone down into the dust bin of history.

Laz

JoeE SP9
08-27-2006, 01:16 PM
The above is the only part of your post I care to deal with directly, as the rest is pure propaganda. The quote is a LIE! Do you not know that even now, the United States and Jewish-Occupied Palestine are preparing to nuke Iran?? Ask yourself, what is better, that Iran MIGHT nuke the West, or that the West certainly WILL nuke Iran? The whole world is already too contaminated with depleted uranium, and the leaders only want to add to it. There is just no reason for Iran to be anyone's enemy, but some folks have an inner craving to have one, for their own sick purposes, profit, or whatever. Will the entire world go down to extinction because of one small mideast nation's paranoia? You can not fight or wage war for peace, you must practice peace for peace. Further, you can not set up the Kingdom with the arm of flesh - every nation which has tried has gone down into the dust bin of history.

Laz

When would you nuke Iran? Before or after Iran nukes Israel?:ihih:

bobsticks
08-27-2006, 04:41 PM
"There is no reason for Iran to be anyones enemy"

Laz, I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Many in the younger generations are being indoctrinated into the radical fundamentalist fervor. Perhaps had the behavior of Europe and the US been different this would not be so, but it is.

Despite what the ultra-liberal intelligensia would have one believe, we cannot view Iran as our chippy little Middle Eastern neighbor whose culture it's important to be tolerant of. This cannot be viewed through pluralist lenses as it is the declared antithesis of pluralism.
The ruling elite classes in virtually every middle eastern country are fostering hatred, if for no other reason than to deflect critical eyes from the social inequities that their kingdoms promote.

I do not support a pre-emptive nuclear strike, but I would without equivocation support whatever steps necessary to prevent nuclear proliferation (anywhere but certainly in Iran).
To suggest that Iran would or could exist in a state of perpetual detente with the West is a dangerous folly.

JoeE SP9
08-27-2006, 06:33 PM
I believe that sooner or later Iran will push Israel too far. Israel will reply with some of the nukes they and the South Africans have been working on. There are too many Arabs that hate Israel for them to continue using conventional warfare when the Muslims all get together. They will be able to cease fighting each other only long enough to attack Israel en masse. After Israel nukes them back to the stone age the world will still have North Korea to deal with. Thats our problem and the Israeli's can't help us there. :ihih:

trollgirl
08-27-2006, 07:35 PM
The ruling elite classes in virtually every middle eastern country are fostering hatred, if for no other reason than to deflect critical eyes from the social inequities that their kingdoms promote.

I do not support a pre-emptive nuclear strike, but I would without equivocation support whatever steps necessary to prevent nuclear proliferation.

Two questions, and I hope my deletions do not leave what you said out of context:

Does not the West, thru the War on Terror, also foster hatred, and for the same reason, to deflect critical eyes from "social inequities" or shall I call it failed domestic policy??

If you would support whatever steps necessary, etc, would that also include a pre-emptive nuclear strike, nuclear war being the very thing non-proleferation is supposedly aimed at preventing??

How many nuclear wars have we had in modern times? WW II, Gulf War I, Kosovo, Gulf War II. Only one with thermonuclear blasts, but the other three have all the rest. Nuclear proliferation can no longer be prevented, and the methods being used will be disaster for us all...

Laz

Feanor
08-28-2006, 05:06 AM
...
No country threatens Iran.
...


Even that part is untrue. Certainly both the U.S. and Israel have contingency plans to attack Iran. Granted, these plans are a response to perceived threats from Iran, but perceived threats, especially on the part of the U.S. are not necessarily valid, to wit, Iraq's WMD.

From Iran's perspective the threat of U.S. invasion must be seen as very valid, and as a sovereign nation, they have a right to self-defence. For better or worse, nuclear capability is a great deterrent.

Peace in the middle east -- hence likely the rest of the world -- will depend on settlements between Israel and its neighbours. And settlements will mean deep concessions from Israel. The U.S. and certain other western countries need to stop being uncritical supporters of Israel -- and that's an understatement if ever there was one.

bobsticks
08-28-2006, 06:32 AM
Laz,
I don't think that the primary reason for the War on Terror is to deflect attention from failed domestic policy. I believe it exists because militant factions supported by militant states perpetrated a massive attack on our homeland. I believe it exists because militant leaders of these factions have avowed to continue such attacks. Finally, I believe it existed at one point in time because Saadaam Hussien was a cruel and toturous despot who went so so far as to drop phosgene gas on his own citizens not because they posed some real separatist or irredentist threat, but because they were ethnically different.

I am not naive enough to believe that there are less than a few politicians that are pleased with the unintended diversion of attention away from the economy, but this is a side-effect not a causal condition.

I do not support a pre-emptive nuclear strike. I should have inserted the word "other" into that sentence and I apologize for the lack of clarity. A PNS would undoubtedly bring about far too much collateral damage and,in doing so, galvanize the efforts and wills of militants across the globe. I contend that the proper course of action would be to properly fund and arm our intelligence community. We are woefully ill-prepared in even the most basic areas of cryptography and linguistics. To avoid the necessity for a full scale ground assault, and for the success of surgical air strikes and other stealth campaigns, we must focus on our intelligence gathering apparatus.

Bill,
I agree that we must cease to be uncritical supporters of Israel. That is not to say that we end relations, but I concur that they must be held accountable for their actions, for too long they have been co-equal provocateurs.

Thanks you both for the respectful exchange of ideas...

Peace,
M

Resident Loser
08-28-2006, 07:27 AM
...when the US sold Hawk missles to Israel, in order to counter the Cold War threat of the USSRs support for Egypt, our State department considered Israel a zionist state...It was OK when Begin and Dyan were killing Brits because they were "freedom fighters"..."Never again" seems to be a one-way street...They are the problem (or at least the biggest part) and I for one say to he!! with 'em...

jimHJJ(...period...)

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 07:57 AM
...when the US sold Hawk missles to Israel, in order to counter the Cold War threat of the USSRs support for Egypt, our State department considered Israel a zionist state...It was OK when Begin and Dyan were killing Brits because they were "freedom fighters"..."Never again" seems to be a one-way street...They are the problem (or at least the biggest part) and I for one say to he!! with 'em...

jimHJJ(...period...)

Yeah, and another thing...

Whose bright idea was it to stick'em all in the ever-coveted-by-all, multi-Holy land of Israel, surrounded by religious states on all sides, and to fund and supply them with decades of military resources, anyway?!?...them guys should be ah-givin' they' heads a shake...

kex(whoever they are)

JoeE SP9
08-28-2006, 08:34 AM
Kex and Loser are both incorrect in blaming Israel. The Israeli's are only trying to exist. An existence that Muslims have vowed to end. Do you really want Muslims exclusively in charge of the Middle East. Don't you remember what those wackos did in Afghanistan? For your information that is the goal of radical Islam. How about a whole world like Islam? That is what they want. Check the link below. Their own women are starting to wake up.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 09:19 AM
Kex and Loser are both incorrect in blaming Israel. The Israeli's are only trying to exist. An existence that Muslims have vowed to end. Do you really want Muslims exclusively in charge of the Middle East. Don't you remember what those wackos did in Afghanistan? For your information that is the goal of radical Islam. How about a whole world like Islam? That is what they want. Check the link below. Their own women are starting to wake up.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Holy History Lesson, Batman!

You seem to have left out the part about the zionist movement/western powers unilaterally, with self-proclaimed authority, taking the most sacred land of Islam from its owners without permission, or agreement and giving it to the Israelis. Uhh...Oooops!!!! Gee we didn't think it'd be such a big deal.

This is every bit as offensive as kidnapping your daughter would be. This is synnonymous with denying Islam it's sovereign right to existance. Geez, when Saddam tried the same thing we bombed him back to the stone age. Morality by convenience?

Nobody's solely blaming Israel here, but too many are solely blaming the Muslim states. ...

ericl
08-28-2006, 10:28 AM
I don't think this post should be here. This person is obviously not here to discuss audio at all, but to troll about this issue. I find that very annoying. You guys are making a discussion out of it, so I suppose it's ok.. Your call on guys like this..

GMichael
08-28-2006, 10:46 AM
I think it's amazing that people here can calmly discuss such a touchy issue without fighting. I am enjoying this read.

noddin0ff
08-28-2006, 11:14 AM
I think it's amazing that people here can calmly discuss such a touchy issue without fighting. I am enjoying this read.

What a jerk.

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 11:18 AM
I don't think this post should be here. This person is obviously not here to discuss audio at all, but to troll about this issue. I find that very annoying. You guys are making a discussion out of it, so I suppose it's ok.. Your call on guys like this..

I didn't respond to the original troll, but I'd like to think we jacked his thread :D
He was probably a soft-dome luvin, SET fan anyway...

@#&% him!

JoeE SP9
08-28-2006, 11:27 AM
Holy History Lesson, Batman!

You seem to have left out the part about the zionist movement/western powers unilaterally, with self-proclaimed authority, taking the most sacred land of Islam from its owners without permission, or agreement and giving it to the Israelis. Uhh...Oooops!!!! Gee we didn't think it'd be such a big deal.

This is every bit as offensive as kidnapping your daughter would be. This is synnonymous with denying Islam it's sovereign right to existance. Geez, when Saddam tried the same thing we bombed him back to the stone age. Morality by convenience?

Nobody's solely blaming Israel here, but too many are solely blaming the Muslim states. ...

Using the term "zionist movement" plays right into the hands of Islamic radicals. Remember, if they can get rid of Isreal the rest of the Christian secular world is their target.:ihih:

Feanor
08-28-2006, 11:54 AM
I don't think this post should be here. This person is obviously not here to discuss audio at all, but to troll about this issue. I find that very annoying. You guys are making a discussion out of it, so I suppose it's ok.. Your call on guys like this..

Then again I personally rarely back away from a debate on politics or religion. :incazzato:

GMichael
08-28-2006, 11:56 AM
What a jerk.

Like a dart to my heart. :nonod:

Hopefully the good people who have jacked this thread will continue their intelligent conversation.

daviethek
08-28-2006, 12:03 PM
We should be working just as hard for peace and normalization of relations. We should have 10 anti- Algezera satellite networks up and running with shows like little house on the desert.

If just 10% of our outlay for war ( 50 billion) could be used for anti terror propaganda, it would be the largest public relations campaign in history. We should be trying to influence the great majority of Iranians , Syrians and the like about the economic benefits of joining the rest of the organized world. They need to understand that they don't need to like us to profit from and with us. ( China).

The Islamic radical leaders are educated but their followers are pathetically ignorant. They are being controlled by narrowly focused information and the rest of the world is allowing it to happen without offering a suitable counter-mythology. I thought this was the stuff we were good at.

bobsticks
08-28-2006, 12:19 PM
Kexo, you had me until "This is synonymous with denying Islam it's sovereign right to existence ", which in point of fact, it is not.

I agree that the entire concept of Israel was ill conceived, but they are here now and have been here for some time. No one that is doing the dying right now is old enough to even remember a time when this was not so. The hate that is being passed through generations on both sides hasn't abated. That alone necessitates the prevention of a nuclear Iran.

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 01:32 PM
Kexo, you had me until "This is synonymous with denying Islam it's sovereign right to existence ", which in point of fact, it is not.


I'm sorry, how is the theft of sovereign land by foreign governments anything but the greatest disregard for their right to exist?
From your perspective maybe, but that act of aggression against Islam's holiest of sacred ground was not dismissed as readily by those nations. Much like the comic strip debacle earlier this year, certain acts are interpreted quite differently by the other side...our failure to learn that lesson over the last two centuries is greatly responsible for the escalation of events....of course blind hate and fanaticism on side opposite hasn't helped either...

JoeE SP9
08-28-2006, 01:35 PM
What everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten is that as usual the Muslims started the present crisis by lofting missiles into Israel. I say Muslims because Hezbollah has the tacit approval of Muslims in general and Lebanese Muslims in particular. Once you add the monetary support Iran provides for Muslim hate groups you leave Israel with few choices.:ihih:

BTW Why is it OK for them to denigrate our symbols, burn our flag and threaten our way of life with destruction and we are supposed to take it without protest.

JoeE SP9
08-28-2006, 01:40 PM
I'm sorry, how is the theft of sovereign land by foreign governments anything but the greatest disregard for their right to exist?
From your perspective maybe, but that act of aggression against Islam's holiest of sacred ground was not dismissed as readily by those nations. Much like the comic strip debacle earlier this year, certain acts are interpreted quite differently by the other side...our failure to learn that lesson over the last two centuries is greatly responsible for the escalation of events....of course blind hate and fanaticism on side opposite hasn't helped either...

Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 03:06 PM
Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:

I've got less against Israel than Iran, but to deny that Israel is situated in a very contentious location is ridiculous...Muslims don't want to turn the world into a big afghanistan - do you even know any muslims?

kexodusc
08-28-2006, 03:16 PM
Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:


I'll grant you Mecca and Medina are more important than Jerusalem to Islam, though...not sure that lessens the importance to their culture any.

CookieFactory
08-29-2006, 02:38 PM
First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?

Feanor
08-29-2006, 05:06 PM
First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?

I hoped to see a return to rationality in U.S. foreign policy, but it didn't happen. The U.S. might have set out in the early '90s to redress the failings of its Cold War policies, such as support for the Shaw of Iran, but instead did nothing rub salt in old wounds.

The U.S. has continued to support certain old Cold War allies, once regard as bulwarks against Communism, but now merely fighting local battles. Israel is the prime example of this. The continuing irrational and uncritical support for that small country, population <6 million, has thoroughly alienated the Arab and Moslim world, population 1.2 billion. The war on terrorism has to be fought at its causes which is largely U.S. foreign policy, past and present.

trollgirl
08-29-2006, 06:00 PM
Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:

JoeE, actually Jerusalem is holy to Islam. If I recall rightly, the Dome of the Rock is the third most holy site for Muslims. Most Christians, especially the North American variety, have almost entirely lost their sense of holy places. To many people around the world, it's very serious. As far as turning the whole world into a giant Afganistan, remember that most Islamic nations are not nearly that strict, the real world always being more complex than political slogans and speeches admit. BTW, the Talmud, the REAL holy book of Judiasm, has preached Jewish dominance of the world for many centuries. It states that 200 donkeys will be required to carry the chests containing the KEYS to all the other treasure chests which have been looted from the Goyim [read: cattle]. Again, most Jews are just trying to get on in this world, like everyone else.

Let's get past the Sterotypes:

not every Muslim is a Terrorist - few in fact

not every Jew is a greedy Banker - few in fact

not every Christian is a neo-Crusader - few in fact

Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...

Laz

GMichael
08-30-2006, 05:07 AM
Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...
Laz

Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?

bobsticks
08-30-2006, 05:51 AM
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?

...how about the bankers, those invested in the military industrial complex, and those that own and control the means of production for oil?


Or maybe it was just...SATAN?!!! (mimics Churchlady)

kexodusc
08-30-2006, 05:51 AM
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?

C'mon, GM, open your eyes...it's the Galactic Confederacy under the rule of Xenu...

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-30-2006, 05:58 AM
I've got less against Israel than Iran, but to deny that Israel is situated in a very contentious location is ridiculous...Muslims don't want to turn the world into a big afghanistan - do you even know any muslims?

Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.

If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.

Feanor
08-30-2006, 06:10 AM
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.

If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.

It bothers me that moderate Muslims in the U.S., Canada, Britain, France, etc., seem a lot quicker to complain that they are unfairly persecuted on account of the War on Terror, than they are to do much about the problem themselves. Which would be to root out their own bad apples.

Not sure about your other point, though, Sir T. Is it Israel listening to Bush? Or is Bush listening to Israel and the domestic pro-Zionists? :confused5:

kexodusc
08-30-2006, 06:20 AM
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.

If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.

I probably have less of a problem with US foreign policy than most - sometimes the ends justify the means. We may have gone into Iraq for the wrong reasons, but it was the right thing to do.
And I'm very pro-Israel, I feel their actions were justified in Lebanon. But I'm also pragmatic. Islam did not start all this. If you look back through history, you can count on one hand the number of nations that were conquered and taken from their owners without war as a response. What the hell did the UN expect in 1948? Yes Muslim terrorists are fanatical, and mostly counter-productive to progress. But Israel has to concede more than they've been willing to if there's any chance for peace. And the two biggest parties responsible for this mess should play a bigger role in settling it equitably.

The UN propsal for Israel was approved by almost everyone except for the region it directly and spiritually impacted. Good move! So we have a long drawn out war that has seen hatred evolve on both sides. Rather than starting over and getting it right, the solution so far has been to keep throwing more money and weapons at a failed concept.

It's not fair to blame Israel for this, her people have suffered enough. It's only human for them to want their very own sovereign jewish state. And it explains, if not justifies their often disproportionate response to acts of aggression by her neighbors.

But this ain't going away until the map is redrawn, and the majority of the region are democratically satisfied and Israel is protected - no easy task.

Resident Loser
08-30-2006, 09:21 AM
...here's where it gets interesting...I'm sure the OP didn't see this coming...

First of all, the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is a family feud that's been brewing for a few thousand years...It seems old Abraham (Ibrihaim to the Muslims) couldn't get Sara (who may have been his half-sister) preggers...so Sara suggests he have a go at Hagar, her maid (who may have been Egyptian)...Well nine months later, out pops Ishmael and all is well 'til Abe and Sara get lucky, resulting in Bob Dylan's Highway 61...a, er Isaac...Well good old honest Abe shows Hagar and his b@$tard son the door and the rest is history...

The ancient Hebrews were nomadic and some of them settled (yes settled) in the land of the Pharoahs...Egypt and they were enslaved and they are subsequently released and ride into the sunrise to the land of milk and honey...

Somewhere along the line, Jacob (Isaac's son) is renamed Israel, so the the children of Israel are descendants of a man named Israel, not a land, nation or anything else...

Now...does anyone out there think the bit o'geography currently known as Israel was vacant and/or desolate? It was the land of Canaan and was just chock full of Canaanites, Jebusites and the occasional Phillistine or two...And Joshua smote the defenders when the walls of Jericho come a-tumblin' down and subsequently David whacks Goliath with his version of the Holy Hand-grenade Of Antioch and long story short...they invaded, captured Jerusalem (ca. 1000BC) and built a temple...so far, so good...until the arrival of imperial Rome, who take exception to the in-fighting among the various Hebrew factions, does a bit of smite-ing of their own and scatters the Israelites to the four winds and renames the land Syria Palestina...

Jerusalem remained under the Roman and Byzatine rule until the Muslim invasion...in fact it was the Muslims (unlike Byzantium) who allowed for a certain amount of Jewish autonomy...then there's the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Turks and the Balfour Document and British Mandate of Palestine and the League of Nations etc., etc....

It wasn't until world Jewry began to resettle to Palestine en masse in the mid-1800s and the advent of Zionism near the turn of the century, that things got sticky again...

Jews have always been considered a nation within a nation as evidenced by their actions and Zionism holds that to be a foundational precept...that they are a divinely ordained counter-culture uber alles so-to-speak...Reminds me of the the scene in MP and the Holy Grail when Arthur and the peasants engage in a dialog re: supreme authority...

There are many other things that impinge on the whole enchilada including the men's daily prayer thanking God that they aren't a woman...it's that sorta' thing that tends to put folks off...

jimHJJ(...everything may be a bit compressed, but holy, horse-hockey...crack open a book now and again...)

GMichael
08-30-2006, 10:54 AM
You left out Adam and Eve.

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 11:02 AM
I've got less against Israel than Iran, but to deny that Israel is situated in a very contentious location is ridiculous...Muslims don't want to turn the world into a big afghanistan - do you even know any muslims?

I'm a black American who lives in the inner city. It's impossible for me not to know any Muslims. I'm surrounded by true Muslims and followers of the NOI (Nation Of Islam). I have several close friends who have made the Haj. I've also lived in the Middle East!
To expect Muslims to get along with anyone (not just Jews) is ridiculous. They can't even get along with themselves. Sunni and Shiite have been fighting for several hundred years over who is the successor to Mohammad.:ihih:

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 11:09 AM
JoeE, actually Jerusalem is holy to Islam. If I recall rightly, the Dome of the Rock is the third most holy site for Muslims. Most Christians, especially the North American variety, have almost entirely lost their sense of holy places. To many people around the world, it's very serious. As far as turning the whole world into a giant Afganistan, remember that most Islamic nations are not nearly that strict, the real world always being more complex than political slogans and speeches admit. BTW, the Talmud, the REAL holy book of Judiasm, has preached Jewish dominance of the world for many centuries. It states that 200 donkeys will be required to carry the chests containing the KEYS to all the other treasure chests which have been looted from the Goyim [read: cattle]. Again, most Jews are just trying to get on in this world, like everyone else.

Let's get past the Sterotypes:

not every Muslim is a Terrorist - few in fact

not every Jew is a greedy Banker - few in fact

not every Christian is a neo-Crusader - few in fact

Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...

Laz

Truly devout Muslims do not believe in any separation of church and state. Admittedly a world like Afghanistan is a stretch. Saudi Arabia is more like what devout Muslims would like the world to be. I don't want to live in a world like that either.:incazzato:

Resident Loser
08-30-2006, 11:10 AM
You left out Adam and Eve.

...looking for the new fall fig leaves...

jimHJJ(...with which to cover their nakedidity...)

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 11:15 AM
First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?

Israel is not actively supporting terrorism against me and mine (the USA). Israel is not actively supporting any movement to make the world an Islamic state. The avowed aim of radical Islam is the establishment of an Islamic world. I am not too interested in having to live in a world like that.:ihih:

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 11:18 AM
...here's where it gets interesting...I'm sure the OP didn't see this coming...

First of all, the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is a family feud that's been brewing for a few thousand years...It seems old Abraham (Ibrihaim to the Muslims) couldn't get Sara (who may have been his half-sister) preggers...so Sara suggests he have a go at Hagar, her maid (who may have been Egyptian)...Well nine months later, out pops Ishmael and all is well 'til Abe and Sara get lucky, resulting in Bob Dylan's Highway 61...a, er Isaac...Well good old honest Abe shows Hagar and his b@$tard son the door and the rest is history...

The ancient Hebrews were nomadic and some of them settled (yes settled) in the land of the Pharoahs...Egypt and they were enslaved and they are subsequently released and ride into the sunrise to the land of milk and honey...

Somewhere along the line, Jacob (Isaac's son) is renamed Israel, so the the children of Israel are descendants of a man named Israel, not a land, nation or anything else...

Now...does anyone out there think the bit o'geography currently known as Israel was vacant and/or desolate? It was the land of Canaan and was just chock full of Canaanites, Jebusites and the occasional Phillistine or two...And Joshua smote the defenders when the walls of Jericho come a-tumblin' down and subsequently David whacks Goliath with his version of the Holy Hand-grenade Of Antioch and long story short...they invaded, captured Jerusalem (ca. 1000BC) and built a temple...so far, so good...until the arrival of imperial Rome, who take exception to the in-fighting among the various Hebrew factions, does a bit of smite-ing of their own and scatters the Israelites to the four winds and renames the land Syria Palestina...

Jerusalem remained under the Roman and Byzatine rule until the Muslim invasion...in fact it was the Muslims (unlike Byzantium) who allowed for a certain amount of Jewish autonomy...then there's the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Turks and the Balfour Document and British Mandate of Palestine and the League of Nations etc., etc....

It wasn't until world Jewry began to resettle to Palestine en masse in the mid-1800s and the advent of Zionism near the turn of the century, that things got sticky again...

Jews have always been considered a nation within a nation as evidenced by their actions and Zionism holds that to be a foundational precept...that they are a divinely ordained counter-culture uber alles so-to-speak...Reminds me of the the scene in MP and the Holy Grail when Arthur and the peasants engage in a dialog re: supreme authority...

There are many other things that impinge on the whole enchilada including the men's daily prayer thanking God that they aren't a woman...it's that sorta' thing that tends to put folks off...

jimHJJ(...everything may be a bit compressed, but holy, horse-hockey...crack open a book now and again...)

That's no worse than the Muslim belief that women aren't really human.:ihih:

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 11:31 AM
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.

If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.

We are in agreement. Moderate Muslims want a world based on Islamic rule and law. although they may not admit it to Christians and others. Moderate Islam is where the money to support radical Islam comes from. There is much more than tacit support going on. The active silence about terrorism and terrorists from moderate Muslims actually says quite a bit.:yesnod:

To any and all. I'm not just anti Islam. I'm anti all religions. I think all of them are silly. The ones that have silly dietary requirements or crazy dress codes just happen to be sillier than rest. Islam (radical) is the only one that wants to take away my freedom to write what I just wrote.:incazzato:

CookieFactory
09-01-2006, 01:53 PM
Israel is not actively supporting terrorism against me and mine (the USA). Israel is not actively supporting any movement to make the world an Islamic state. The avowed aim of radical Islam is the establishment of an Islamic world. I am not too interested in having to live in a world like that.:ihih:

Summarized nicely into a single word: Ethnocentrism.

Contrary to popular Western belief, but the world at large might not want to convert to "democracy", especially the USA's flavor of it - AKA "We will give you liberty, or we will give you death!"

I think ultimately history will prove democracy to be a flawed philosophy in the same way communism was - the reliance on positive human nature. Communism depended on humans being unselfish, and democracy depends on an educated and politically active populace. Suffice it to say, the USA is not a shining example of the ideal democratic state, especially when there are more votes for American Idol than for the presidential elections.

IMO the ideal form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.

trollgirl
09-01-2006, 03:04 PM
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?

...Benjamin Disraeli said, the world is ruled by a very different group of people than you or I think or believe. I have been studying this subject for many years, and even the members of this group who are visible are just front men - errand boys. The Book of Revelation refers to it as Mystery Babylon, aka the New World Order, the Order, Skull & Bones, the Fourth Reich of the Rich, the Trilateral Commission, Roundtable, the Council on Foreign Relations, etc, etc, etc. Involved are most of the world's leading Nation States, the Mega Corporations, Mega Banks, Mega Labor Unions, the Military-Industrial Complex, Mega Religious Denominatios and Orders, the Masons, the Occult and New Age movements, etc, etc, etc. It is VERY difficult to finger any one organization as being THE GROUP, for it is amorphous and slippery, like Jello. A whole lot of people are involved to a greater or lesser degree, but I do not think for a moment that many people know the names of the core members. Those that do probably walk in fear, and I do know that lots of people end up dead/suicided for knowing too much. Ignorance truly is bliss...

DO NOT ask me to play Twenty Questions on this subject [looks over shoulder].

Laz

TimW
11-01-2006, 10:59 AM
Call me strange, call me weird, call me blind even, but somewhere in all this I missed the references to audio equipment....does all the talk about nuclear weaponry have anything to do with the upcoming use of beryllium in a new line of speakers by Yamaha? They’ve lifted the ban on its use? Or is there a fear that the Iranians might start dropping beryllium-laden speakers on US cities?

Folks, there are forums aplenty on the net where those who wish to indulge in the rhetoric of war, ethnic and religious intolerance, and US foreign policy can do so to their hearts content. Last I looked this forum existed for the cross-exchange of ideas and knowledge regarding a shared passion, audio equipment, not for indulging in a fruitless exercise to second-guess who/when/if the USA/Iran/Israel would/should/might nuke/gas/spank the USA/Iran/Israel. If that doesn’t make sense, neither does it do anything for my sensibilities to come here to peruse the pages and find a header devoted to such an off-topic discussion.

If you think I’m not concerned or involved you’re dead wrong. I have written numerous letters to various papers since 2003 regarding my views, and have created a number of web pages devoted to the subject of the Middle East. The whole exercise has been physically draining and personally very taxing over the last few years, even to the extent of costing long-standing friendships. As can be seen on this very thread, the subject polarizes people and creates disharmony, which is the last thing a forum devoted to the appreciation of music should be about. I come here for relaxation and to learn about a subject dear to me, not to be dragged back unwillingly to a topic I’ve already devoted far too much energy to – years of it.

For myself, if not for others, I would petition that we all get back to respecting what this place is all about. If you want appropriate forums to battle it out anew just let me know and I can happily direct you to them.

Respectfully.....Tim

Resident Loser
11-01-2006, 11:32 AM
...Call me strange, call me weird, call me blind even, but somewhere in all this I missed the references to audio equipment....
Respectfully.....Tim

...might want to include unobservant in that litany as this forum is specifically for off-topic, non-audio matters...add to that it's the steel-cage, a rather no-holds-barred section of the OT forum...

Now, unless you have anything to add get your dumb@$$ out of here and talk shop in any one of the other forums...

jimHJJ(...thank you...)

kexodusc
11-01-2006, 11:40 AM
...might want to include unobservant in that litany as this forum is specifically for off-topic, non-audio matters...add to that it's the steel-cage, a rather no-holds-barred section of the OT forum...

Now, unless you have anything to add get your dumb@$$ out of here and talk shop in any one of the other forums...

jimHJJ(...thank you...)

ROFLMAO...
Sorry,
Nothing to add...the man's just got good material....

Well...I could mention that this thread did lay dormant for 2 months until...nah.

GMichael
11-01-2006, 12:10 PM
ROFLMAO...
Sorry,
Nothing to add...the man's just got good material....

Well...I could mention that this thread did lay dormant for 2 months until...nah.

Ditto. Good stuff here. Thanks for the laughs.

bobsticks
11-02-2006, 06:29 AM
http://lcdusa.org/

trollgirl
11-04-2006, 06:40 PM
...Now, unless you have anything to add get your dumb@$$ out of here and talk shop in any one of the other forums...

jimHJJ(...thank you...)


Give the guy a break, he sounds like someone who has done far too much for far too long, and is tired of it all. He sounded very reasonable to me, the purpose of the Steel Cage notwithstanding, and calling him a "dumb@$$" is immature and mean - unnecessary too.

Laz

Resident Loser
11-13-2006, 12:23 PM
Give the guy a break, he sounds like someone who has done far too much for far too long, and is tired of it all. He sounded very reasonable to me, the purpose of the Steel Cage notwithstanding, and calling him a "dumb@$$" is immature and mean - unnecessary too.

Laz

...This really doesn't require an explanation, does it?

jimHJJ(...holy bejeebus I hope not...)

Florian
11-24-2006, 04:22 PM
Sunni and Shiite have been fighting for several hundred years over who is the successor to Mohammad.:ihih:

You mean its not George Bush? Damn...now i gotta sell the fan T-Shirts again