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curiousburke
08-19-2006, 01:05 PM
Well, I've done a lot of comparisons between speakers and some components and in the end I think I just don't have the ears for this passion. I really wish I did.

I can hear the difference between different speakers. I've tried a number of sets now: Bose 201, Infinity Primus 150s, Klipsch Synergy B2s, Klipsch Reference RB15, and the Warfedale Diamond 9.1s. They do all sound different and the last two are the best. I have not decided between the last 2 yet; the Warfedales are warmer while the RB15s seem a little clearer on the vocals (less veiled). Any thoughts on these two?

Okay, that choice almost done I decided to replace my very old CDP (~14 years) as was discussed in another thread. And, I greatly appreciated all the info. Well, in the end I replaced it with a Squeexebox and it sounded much better then my CDP when I first got it.

Unfortunately, I rigged up a switch for an A-B comparison with my old CDP. Well, I can not hear any difference. I mean really nothing but a slight skip if they aren't perfectly in sync. When I didn't have the A-B I had thought the Squeezebox was much better, but now I realize I was fooling myself.

Well, the Squeezebox is pretty cool and convienient, but my advice to anyone entering this hobby is to choose electronics based on the features not the music quality, and blow the wad on the speakers.

cheers,
Mark

CookieFactory
08-19-2006, 01:52 PM
You've transcended past the Audiophile onto the next level: Realist.

Woochifer
08-19-2006, 03:45 PM
I think you're learning that the value of upgrades will vary considerably by component. The speakers will give you the biggest range of tonal characteristics because all of them make compromises of some kind. No speaker out there is perfect, so all speakers will have clearly audible and measurable differences. The decision on which speaker to go with is determined with which compromises and tonal characteristics are acceptable for the type of listening that you do.

Digital source components on the other hand have a much narrower range of differences. The proof is in both the measurements and in the listening, but that doesn't stop some pretty wild claims from being made about "night and day" improvements that result from digital source component upgrades. Differences might exist if you listen carefully enough, but they pale in significance compared to deviations that exist with speakers, room acoustics, and analog source components such as tape players and the vinyl playback chain.

With the Squeezebox vs. your old CD player, I have to ask if you have these connected to your receiver/amp using a digital connection or an analog connection. The purported advantage of the Squeezebox is in the digital-to-analog converter and the analog signal path. If you digitally connect both devices to your receiver, then it the two sources should sound practically identical they would both use the same decoder and bypass the analog outputs on each device.

Overall though, I would focus on the areas where you can hear the clear-cut differences first, and prioritize your budget accordingly.

I wouldn't sweat it if you can't join the so-called audiophile ranks. What the hell defines an audiophile anyway? And a lot of the excessive claims that have been made by self-proclaimed audiophiles over the years have given the label a bad name in a lot of circles. Just watch the defensiveness that pops up when someone asks whether these observations occurred under sighted or blind conditions. From having participated in blind listenings, I can verify how much the magnitude of difference narrows when I did not know what changes are made. Dunlavy and McIntosh used to pretend to switch out speaker cables at high end audio shows, and let the participants drone on and on about how HUGE a difference they could hear, when in fact NOTHING had actually changed between listenings. If anything, that demonstrates how much perception is shaped by bias.

curiousburke
08-19-2006, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the comments.
I used the analog signal from both the CDP and the Squeezebox. I don't know if they had CDPs with digital out back then; I guess probably, but this is low end Kenwood player.

As for the comparisions, I only do blind comparisons when I think I can hear a difference. I didn't do that here since they sounded the same to me. Another test I did was to compare monster wire to some thinner stuff. Again, I couldn't tell the difference. I think part of the problem is I'm not in an ideal listening environment and part is I don't have the ears for it.

I am agonizing between the RB15s and the Diamond 9.1s.

-mark

Mike Anderson
08-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Most people wouldn't identify the Squeezebox (using the analog outs) as an audiophile product. If you want audiophile quality sound out of the SB, you can take the digital out and hook it up to a high-quality DAC.

Be sure to check out the Internet radio on your SB.

Mike Anderson
08-19-2006, 07:19 PM
One other thing -- you haven't said what kind of amp and speakers you're using.

If you're not putting your source into a decent quality rig, you're not going to hear subtle differences.

RGA
08-20-2006, 04:24 AM
Not all cds players sound different -- just because it is expensive means very little. At the same time do not expect to hear differences in high resolution sources when you run them through receivers analog or digital -- I have a Marantz 4300 which is newish and it could not distinguish crap from a filet mignon because it basically presents a sludge result. I also tested the absolute top of the line Yamaha receiver before I left and it soundedpretty much the same as the Marantz -- caca.

This is not to defend pricey cd players or pricey amps. I have heard the $30.00 Class T Sonic Impact sound considerably more musically satisfying than an over $1K Highly raved about Musical Fidelity. I have also heard 5 disc Sony players at $199.00 that were just as good and in one case better than highly raved about $1k+ cd players (I listened in a line level matched blind test and successfully determined the difference). Differences are less important - better is important.

Speakers make the largest difference along with the room positioning of speakers and your listening position. Biggest difference and most important differences however are not necessarily the same thing. I may like wildly different loudspeakers each has a voice which I may like -- but the rest of the gear may make a system produce magic or produce annoying dreck. Which it is will be different for each user.

curiousburke
08-20-2006, 04:58 AM
Yeah, I have been using the internet radio features of the Squeezebox. Like I said, I really like the Squeezebox for its features, so I'll likely keep it, but I can't hear the difference. Maybe this is the rig, but more likely it's my inability to distinguish slight differences, especially in my fairly poor living room configuration. Also, I think think the setup sounds good, but I don't really know what great sound should sound like in my living room.

Rig:

Squeezebox or Kenwood 1-bit dual DAC (I found the manufacture date = 1992)
Sonic Impact T-amp with a 12V/3Amp power supply
Klipsch RB-15 or Warfedale Diamond 9.1s


I find the difficulty with the speakers is that I like them both in their own way.
-m

curiousburke
08-20-2006, 05:45 AM
Oh, I just had a breakthrough! I was A-B'ing again listening to Brandenburg Concerto No. 5. in D major. At the end of the first Allegro between about minute 7 and 10 there is a really soft section. Well, I cranked it way up, which I can't usually do because I'm in a condo, and there was a very clear difference between the Squeezebox and the Kenwood. The SB was much crisper adn detailed making the CDP sound muddy.

So, maybe my problem/condition is that I listen to music at too low a volume to really distinguish music quality, unless it is really crappy. This is probably a good thing because I'll be happy with most of the electronic components out there.

I'm going to go listen to that again.

cheers,
mark

Wireworm5
08-20-2006, 06:58 AM
What is an audiophile? A question I've been asking lately.
Most people claim to like music even though are tastes vary from person to person, so that can't be the answer. I think the answer is more like someone like me who spends a lot of time consciously listening to music. Where other people will spend their time gaming, fixing cars, watching soaps, etc..
I don't think my hearing is better than anyone else's. But I think that from many hours of listening that I can process sounds in my brain that others miss. I know this cause when I A/B an sacd and a cd for a friend , he could not tell a differece but there definately was a difference in that the cd sounded thin in comparison.
Since I got into home audio some 6 years ago. I have noticed a definite improvement in sound quality with each upgrade I've made. There were times where I thought that it can't get any better, but I was proven wrong each time. But I didn't make hasty decisions, I would listen an analyze the sound for months at a time till I was certain what needed improvement. I made some risky decisions not knowing if the upgrade would make a difference, but each time it did.
In my case, my first multi-disc cd player was crap. I suspect that the laser pickup wasn't very good. When I discovered how bad the resolution was playing cds ,I quickly replaced it.
Now as for your system. Play a 320 mp3 song for a week or two. Then play a cd of the same song. If you can't hear the difference even though it is marginal then your system resolution isn't good enough. And that maybe why you can't disguise a difference in your sources.But it could also be as you say, there is no difference.

hifitommy
08-20-2006, 10:07 AM
thats what its all about. i began noticing music as a child in the late '1940s (bing crosby, benny goodman, and later les paul & mary ford). radio, victrolas, and live music was there for me.

not until the late 60s/early 70s was i attuned to equipment improvements. i could HEAR the diffs between speakers but didnt know what to make of it. then a knowledgeable friend helped me to recognize what sounded more like the real thing, real instruments.

with some time and changes, i made decisions on my own and also with guidance from him and listening sessions at hifi stores when i wasnt really buying at the time. eventually i made some very good choices and advances.

so compare the sound of the bass, clarity, cymbals, voice, piano, and the like and do this in long term listening sessions. quick A?B test can be revealing but long term is at least equal or better at making judgements with.

receivers and amps will sooner or later reveal themselves and you will have a good idea when to make the next step up. the better the equipment gets, the more you will be able to hear differences. thats when diffs in CDPs can become apparent.

separate components will allow incremental improvements and are usually built better than integrated pieces like receivers.

being an audiophile for the better sound of the music will serve you better than being one for having the latest and greatest equipment.

evolution: http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/588.html

RGA
08-20-2006, 07:53 PM
Try and listen to your two cd players through a line level headphone amplifier (they;re not the greatest of quality mind you but most higher end dealers who are BIG and sell a lot of headphones probably have one. Commercial Electronics in Vancouver does because they also sell to professional recording studios. SO you can hook up a very good headphone from say Sennheiser, Beyer, Grado, Stax electrostats etc and then run 1 -8 cd players each with their own volume control all feeding the headphone -- thsi way you can adjust the volume level of each cd player so they are matched.

Place the same cd in each cd player and go to it. If you can't hear a difference with really good headphones then chances are you won't every hear them with loudspeakers and don;t waste the money. Therein also lies a problem -- even if you hear a difference with the headphones it still does not mean you will with a regular stereo amplifier and speakers. Some pricey cd players are deliberately made to sound different -- this is easy to do and if a DBT does not ever pick up cd player differences then you have to wonder about the test itself. CD player makers WANT to make their cd players sound different or better and that is the crux. Being different and being better are not the same thing. The mistake is to hear the $30.00 SOnic Impact and assume that the $1k MF is better because it is expensive -- and yes there is a huge "difference" in sound but I walked away thinking -- well the SI actually sounded good the MF sounded like a stereile boring lifeless mess.

On the other hand you may listen to a Rotel and much prefer it to the SI. You can;t base everything on a few experiments with a few pieces of gear.

Mike Anderson
08-20-2006, 08:00 PM
^^^ The Squeezebox ain't a CD player. It's the audio version of a friggin' Swiss Army knife for $300!

:6:

curiousburke
08-21-2006, 05:07 AM
Mike, I agree, the SB does a tonne of things that a CDP will never do, and in my case it is always as good and sometimes slightly better then my CDP. For these reasons I think I will keep it. The internet radio alone has my wife hooked.

Thanks for all the suggestions for testing, I'll continue doing so, but I probably won't go to headphones. This is only because I almost never listen to headphones, so unless I can hear a difference on my loundspeakers I'm not concerned if there is one. I was quite happy that I could hear the difference with that section of Brandenburg Concertos and I think picking that out is helping me to detect some differences in other pieces of music. The difference doesn't sway my wife, but like I said she likes the internet radio either way.

cheers,
mark

misterq4u
08-21-2006, 01:11 PM
I am a mix of Wireworm and Hifitom experience.

This sums it all up
"being an audiophile for the better sound of the music will serve you better than being one for having the latest and greatest equipment"

Florian
08-21-2006, 05:28 PM
I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

-Flo

curiousburke
08-22-2006, 01:06 PM
I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

-Flo

Florian, this sounds a bit snobby. I don't mean any offense by this, but it strikes me as "if you're not dropping at least 2K into this hobby, then you're not really in it for the music, but you just like electronics." Personally, I would say just the opposite. The electronics geak in me would love to play with some high end gear, but the piece of me that is just looking for listening pleasure is happy with the $30 t-amp.

-m

hermanv
08-22-2006, 04:19 PM
It's kind of hard not to be at least a little bit of a snob, not when I and most audiophiles I know got to the equipment we own today the hard way. I mean we too bought incremental stuff and things slowly improved and improved some more and the next thing you know I/we have got a damn fortune tied up in the hobby.

So what's my point? I had a nice stereo, I decided I NEEDED a big screen HDTV and a surround system home theater, so I spent a lot of time trying to find a cost effective way to use my nice stuff as the two front channels. I couldn't find a way I could afford that didn't spoil what I already had.

So I bought a good receiver a NAD T770 (or maybe it was a T772) at about $1,500 a Toshiba progressive scan DVD with 24/96 converters, Dalhquist 3 way speakers (a left over from another upgrade) on the front, Legacy Monitors in the rears and a home brew center channel (Dual 4" Etons and a scan speak tweet). Real money, good stuff. Great TV.

Anxious to compare, I played a CD on my new home theater set-up. It wasn't awful but couldn't begin to compare to the main system. I know, I said to myself, turn off all that processing, go to straight stereo 2 channel only, those Dahlquists are good speakers, that'll work. Nope just not there. I have never heard a reciever that could hold up to seperates. Of course the prices are not an apples to apples comparison either.

In my opinion, you might hear a difference between zip cord and a decent speaker cable with a receiever but you wont hear any difference between a $250 interconnect and a $1,000 interconnect. On my good system unfortunately I can hear a difference and it doesn't favor the cheaper cable.

Do I have special hearing, of course not, but hearing gets better as you listen better and the equipment improves. It's just a learned thing, as far as I know anyone can learn, but the end result on your wallet is your problem not mine:)
.

Woochifer
08-22-2006, 04:47 PM
Florian, this sounds a bit snobby. I don't mean any offense by this, but it strikes me as "if you're not dropping at least 2K into this hobby, then you're not really in it for the music, but you just like electronics."

Don't worry, you're not reading it incorrectly! :ihih:


Personally, I would say just the opposite. The electronics geak in me would love to play with some high end gear, but the piece of me that is just looking for listening pleasure is happy with the $30 t-amp.

Agreed. Some of the most dedicated music lovers I know are far more into the music itself than the equipment that they play it on. They prove their dedication not by investing every last cent into a constant cycle of equipment upgrades, but by attending live events, constantly trying to discover new music, and supporting the musicians themselves. Just last year, I attended four concerts with the SF Symphony and one with the LA Philharmonic (not to mention countless other club gigs and live shows). Between my wife and I, the tickets to those events cost around $800. Does that make me less of a music fan because I chose to attend live events rather than spend that amount of money on some fancy interconnect? IMO, great music is great music, no matter what kind of system you're playing it through. Personally, I feel sorry for those "audiophiles" who won't listen to something just because the recording quality isn't up to par.

Woochifer
08-22-2006, 06:01 PM
It's kind of hard not to be at least a little bit of a snob, not when I and most audiophiles I know got to the equipment we own today the hard way. I mean we too bought incremental stuff and things slowly improved and improved some more and the next thing you know I/we have got a damn fortune tied up in the hobby.

Nothing wrong with that process of discovery, but I think that a lot of the more dismissive attitudes and general lack of perspective that I see in the audio hobby are doing a lot of damage. Over the years, I've met numerous people who spent a fortune on their audio systems, and listened to plenty of high end systems. But, I got other priorities in life outside of my audio system (i.e, attending live music events regularly, dance, travel, buying CDs and DVDs, etc.), so I've always gone with a midlevel setup. That doesn't stop me from listening, and trying things out; and knowing that there are better systems out there does not stop me from enjoying mine. Yet, there's often a presumption among audiophiles that people who don't constantly pump money into their system are somehow less dedicated to the music itself. Personally, I think the dismissive attitude that accompanies that belief has increasingly spread throughout the audio hobby, and it has driven plenty of otherwise interested people away.

I know a lot of it also well intentioned advice bourne of learning things the hard way. But, often the advice that comes out of this is to skip the starting and intermediate price points, and go straight to the higher price points. And if a newbie is convinced that the only choices are to go high end or don't go, they might choose the latter option.

The hard truth is that the audio component industry is in a long-term decline. Last year's total sales of $1.1 billion were less than half of what Apple alone generated in iPod sales, and is way off the 1990 peak of $1.9 billion ($3 billion in today's dollars). For all the vitriol that I read on this and other boards about how lousy receivers and entry level components sound and how stupid consumers buying those products are, the fact is that budding audiophiles need to start somewhere. But, the tenor of the conversation often is to basically tell people that they are not worthy until they spend more on their systems, that having a system of a particular budget reflects everything from their general knowledge to what the music itself means to them. The destroyer of the audio hobby will not be cheap systems or home theater, but people deciding not to bother with component systems in the first place.

At a time when I think the audio hobby needs to reach out and be as inclusive as possible, the trend seems more and more geared towards exclusivity. Reaching out means focusing on rational priorities and educating people on what's possible within their budget points, rather than trying to convince entry level consumers that they need to invest in megabuck cabling that might cost more than their speakers, or that it's impossible to enjoy music without investing an exhorbitant amount on their system. Even a newbie can see through the folly that these attitudes represent, and it just might be enough to sour them on the whole experience.


In my opinion, you might hear a difference between zip cord and a decent speaker cable with a receiever but you wont hear any difference between a $250 interconnect and a $1,000 interconnect. On my good system unfortunately I can hear a difference and it doesn't favor the cheaper cable.

Do I have special hearing, of course not, but hearing gets better as you listen better and the equipment improves. It's just a learned thing, as far as I know anyone can learn, but the end result on your wallet is your problem not mine:)
.

And I think here is where the perspective comes in. Even if someone can hear a difference between those interconnects, the question then becomes whether that $750 budget difference is worth whatever perceived sound quality improvements exist, and if that cost can be better applied in other areas.

You're right that "it's a learned thing". But, I think the bigger challenge is with encouraging the learning without being judgmental or dogmatic. And that's a fine line to tread, because not much separates pride from snobbishness and arrogance.

hermanv
08-22-2006, 08:24 PM
Before I could be considered an audiophile, I could hear problems wih my equipment, I didn't know what they were or how to describe them. Makes it very hard to fix. I floundered about until I listened to a friends high end system, oh, probably 25 years ago.

I still didn't know the lingo, but my suspicions that all was not well with my equipment were confirmed. I did what I always do, I set out to learn more. I subscribed to magazines, I talked to others, I went to high end stores. Soon I knew more and could even elucidate some of the issues I heard with my equipment. I also learned I couldn't possibly afford the stuff that sounded truly great.

I decided to attempt to identify the weakest link in my system and see if I could fix that. My system didn't have a seperate pre-amp it was an integrated , but there were bypass jacks to the power stage which was a reasonable 110W/channel.

So I bought a used Conrad Johnson PV12, $900 I think. A lot compared to most of my stuff, but within reach of almost anyone who saves up a little money. It helped a lot, but did not fix my system. More reading listening and learning, finally I concluded that good CD players seemed well out of financial reach, but I learned that a reasonably priced D to A would help most CD players. Another $850 about 1 year later. Wow, that was a big step. Suddenly most of that transistor grunge was gone, replaced with smooth clean sounds. Not the last word in resolution, extension or dynamics, but I could listen happily for hours. Light some candles, sit back enjoy the show, not bad.

That was the big change, the ability to listen for hours on end and really enjoy the music. This new decompression tool, this home entertainment, shared with my wife made it clear that this was a good way to invest some of my money. The returns were well worth it. I've never looked back.

Florian
08-22-2006, 09:05 PM
Don't worry, you're not reading it incorrectly! :ihih:
Woochiefer has neither the knowledge nor experience to judge good equipment and doesnt own any either ,he is not in the class that he is able to comment with the likes of Joe, Bernd, Y_S and myself and this is why i and others completely disregard him.

Below the 2K area, you have people going from Home Theaters in a box to bigger bookshelf speakers, to some subwoofers. Then a new HT Receiver, new cables. Then they want a different DVD Player etc..

In the true realm of High End Audio, you have people changing equipment with much more thought and system and its a slow process.

Also i get offended by the comment of "snobs" same as others like Bernd, Joe, Y_S etc.. and get trashed by Wooch and the likes because they simply cannot afford it and dont respect our hard and long work that it took to get this far.

Joe and Bernd are easily in the tens of thousands of dollars into their Systems. Y_S is also in with at least 30K. My speakers alone are 85K and the whole system is over a 100K. Is this snobby ? No, some people buy a fancy car or go on many trips. I honor the music and try to reproduce it close to real and make all the efforts in the world to get it. The "snobby" accusing corner is generally by the population with mainstream equipment who cant afford it.

Thats my point, and i stand by it.

superpanavision70mm
08-22-2006, 10:46 PM
Florian...

In the past we have had disagreements and such, but for once I couldn't agree with you anymore with your comments about Wooch!

likeitloud
08-23-2006, 04:19 AM
Florian...

In the past we have had disagreements and such, but for once I couldn't agree with you anymore with your comments about Wooch!

Without going into a big back in forth thing about this, your maybe going into attack
mode alittle unfairly, this forum is used buy people who for the most part, are in the
mid to upper mid budget area for their system. With that said, there are only about
8-12 guys willing to help with the same mundane, over and over questions almost
daily. Wooch, is one of them, among others bobsticks/jse/gmike/even RL, stone/swish
over in R/R, even john/eric kick in once in awhile. With new guys/gals checking in
alot lately, there input keeps the forum running. Flo/Bernd/Joe, have super high end
systems, great, the others mentioned just seem to be willing to break things down
into terms new guys/gals can relate to. Look at wooch's threads, the guy is spending
alot of time getting his info out there for everyone. Highend gear is cool, most of us
just don't relate to it, we have budgets, family, commitments. For me, audio is not
my top priority, but I want it to sound the best it can, within my limits. Guys like
wooch, have made that happen. For the record, I'm not lobbying anyone for president,
it's just the way it is. Later

kexodusc
08-23-2006, 04:58 AM
I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

-Flo

Once again you take the opportunity to stroke your own ego with that holier-than-thou attitude of yours.
Not sure what the "SB" area is, but for home theater and stereo sub $2K, it only makes sense that there's more equipment turnover - which is much different from being an equipmentphile - When you start with a $400 system, the next upgrade might only cost $200...When you get to $2000, you start holding onto your gear a bit longer...it takes more and more savings to reach that next step. So early on there's more purchases, it slows down later on for most people.

Oddly enough, I can not think of anyone who spends more time masturbating to their audio gear and posting about how terrific and superior their equipment is than yourself.


Without going into a big back in forth thing about this, your maybe going into attack
mode alittle unfairly, this forum is used buy people who for the most part, are in the
mid to upper mid budget area for their system.

Bang on! And condescending snobby remarks intended only to establish a lower separate class from the wannabe elitists are neither productive nor sought after by members here.

Florian
08-23-2006, 05:20 AM
The "I want to be the next Wooch".....enough said.

The other poster was right, this is the wrong forums for the guys and myself since there is noone who relates to the systems as much as we do. We actually have goals to get better music reproduction, and we have the knowledge and pass it on. Same as i have helped countless of others withing their pricerange but made recommendations of Brands that are unknown by Woochie and the rest because of their limited perspective in this hobby.

People forgot that i started with a low low system and simply worked my way up and give information based on real life experience and ownership, which is quite the opposite from the mainstream guys on here.

-Flo

PS: But if you have questions like "What subwoofer is the best for 500$" then let me asure that we can make a standard Woochie answere thread. "Paradigm, HSU and SVS".......

noddin0ff
08-23-2006, 06:06 AM
Being an audiophile is about the pursuit, not the budget. It's more about the knowledge and desire to learn than it is about the actual execution. Gear does not an audiophile make. Knowing what to listen for, what you like to hear, and how to go about bringing your system closer to your ideal is what makes an audiophile. Doing all of this while living in your budget and taking care of your family only makes you a dedicated audiophile. Dismissing those in the sub $$$$ range as short-sighted simpletons is what makes a snob.

JoeE SP9
08-23-2006, 07:42 AM
I've been following the direction of this thread with a lot of misgivings. I would like to add what I think is some clarity. Flo, Bernd and I are not snobs or elitists. We are music lovers. There is a basic difference in our approaches to building a system. Our systems are designed around the idea of getting the most music out of them. Home theater is either not an issue or as in my case relatively unimportant. I'm the only one who has any kind of surround sound. Sure, I have four electrostatic speakers. I bought all of them used! As a matter of fact most of what I have I bought used. If I have been reading Flo's posts correctly a large percentage of his gear was purchased used. I understand he just got a Krell KSA-100. The only way to get one of those is on the used market.
Our systems are built around the idea of two channel music reproduction. Sure, we have “killer systems”. In every case they've been a long time coming. My system has been evolving since I bought my first piece of gear in 1967. That's before a lot of you were born. Flo is enthusiastic and gregarious about his passion. He has been keeping all of you informed as he has moved up the equipment ladder. He is excited and happy about this and he knows how much better his gear sounds than some “crappy” surround receiver. Remember, he has no surround at all. I believe that Bernd and I feel the same way we're just not so vocal about our feelings. As reinforcement I admit I've never owned a receiver. That's a major reason I keep my opinions to myself. I can't comment on what I've never owned. Although I have experienced many surround receivers, usually with crappy rear speakers playing much too loud.
There is one thing I don't understand. What is it with people wanting advice on what speaker to buy? Don't they have ears? Can't they hear? Buying speakers is important. You can't buy the right ones for yourself by studying spec sheets asking for advice and purchasing over the Internet. The only way to buy speakers is to go out and listen to a sampling of speakers within your budget. You then buy what sounds best to you. If this means that you have to drive for a couple of hours to hear something, so what. Isn't a speaker purchase important enough to spend time getting it right?
It's true I usually stay out of the what is the best $500 subwoofer debates. Frankly, in that price category DIY is the way to go. Parts Xpress has $500 sub woofer kits that chew up all those inexpensive Paradigm and SVS subs for a snack. On the other hand I'm currently building 2 transmission line subs. I got the design from the Pass DIY site. For less than $150 I will have 2 8” transmission line subs. If you are on a budget you should try one or two of these. You want real bass? Build four of these, put one in each corner power them with 2 Adcom GFA545 ($200 each) and for $700 you have bass all over the place. That's the kind of advice I can give about inexpensive subs. I'm sorry if that comes to more than $500.
I have to say this again. Flo, Bernd and myself have what we consider good sounding systems. They all share certain characteristics. They are primarily or only 2 channel. They have been slowly and constantly upgraded over a period of years. They will more than likely see more upgrades, although in Flo's case that may not be so. Lastly, if you heard our rigs you might understand why we feel the way we do about $500 five speaker surround systems.
A little advice in parting. I have found that timbre matching a center channel speaker is so difficult it's usually better to run the center channel in phantom mode.:cool:

Bernd
08-23-2006, 08:28 AM
Very well put Joe. I was just contemplating writing along those lines. It needed to be claryfied, and you did that.
As you said this has been a journey over many years and who knows what is yet to come.
First and foremost I love and enjoy music. If I can afford an upgrade (and it has to be an upgrade, rather than a sideways move) I will do that.
I understand that people starting out need advice, but to be honest the only advice you can really give is "Use your Ears", or where would be a good place to go and audition and what to look out for.
Also what is bright to one pair of lugholes is dull to another.
Yes experience counts and if somebody would like an opinion on how certain pieces of equipment, I used to own or still own, work with one another, I will gladly give that. As well as advice on a start up system.
I am always amused at the old chestnut of family, mortgage and other commitments yadaah, yadaah. I have those too. And once everyting is taken care off I put some green aside.This is a long term project. Yes in the bigger scheme of things it is an undefendable high expense, but it is my passion and enjoyment.
Anyway what is so wrong with knowing what one wants? And with voicing that. This is not snobish.

Peace

Bernd:16:

Woochifer
08-23-2006, 08:33 AM
Woochiefer has neither the knowledge nor experience to judge good equipment and doesnt own any either ,he is not in the class that he is able to comment with the likes of Joe, Bernd, Y_S and myself and this is why i and others completely disregard him.

Oh, so now you're "disregarding" me! :lol: The lies just pile one on top of the other. Before, you claimed that you were "ignoring" me and did not read my posts. Problem with telling lies is that you have to keep your story straight, which you obviously don't even try to do.

This statement pretty much makes my point about how many attitudes in the audio hobby are about excluding people and judging them.

I've had plenty of experience with high end equipment over the years, which you repeatedly choose to ignore and smear just because I don't share your elitist attitude towards audio. Smearing the messenger is just part of your posting pattern. You falsely judge people's knowledge based strictly on their preferences and what they own, as your repeated attacks on experienced and knowledgeable posters such as Kex, RGA, Terrence, and topspeed, among others, demonstrate. I just made a choice that I did not need to invest in a high end system for my home listening. Knowing that better systems are out there does not cause me to lose any sleep, nor does it diminish the validity of what I have discovered through my own experiences, which is not limited to the system that I have at home.


Below the 2K area, you have people going from Home Theaters in a box to bigger bookshelf speakers, to some subwoofers. Then a new HT Receiver, new cables. Then they want a different DVD Player etc..

So, you're saying that two-channel systems in sub-$2k class don't exist? Or that consumers in that price point don't wind up keeping their systems for many years? Don't get out much, do you?


In the true realm of High End Audio, you have people changing equipment with much more thought and system and its a slow process.

Slow process? I guess that's why you've changed the speakers on your main system at least 4 times in less than 3 years. Funny that you accuse entry level and midlevel consumers of constantly upgrading their equipment because they're "equipmentphiles", yet it seems that every six months or so, there's yet another Florian thread about how you've finally found your audio nirvana with yet another system upgrade, often jettisoning a piece of equipment that you couldn't brag enough about less than a year earlier. Oh yeah, you loved your Divas -- sssssoooooo much that you sold them after less than a year! :rolleyes:


Also i get offended by the comment of "snobs" same as others like Bernd, Joe, Y_S etc.. and get trashed by Wooch and the likes because they simply cannot afford it and dont respect our hard and long work that it took to get this far.

And the survey sez ...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

Nice try, but a half truth is still a lie. Well, actually in this case NOTHING about this statement is true, so it's a 100% bona fides lie!


Joe and Bernd are easily in the tens of thousands of dollars into their Systems. Y_S is also in with at least 30K. My speakers alone are 85K and the whole system is over a 100K. Is this snobby ? No, some people buy a fancy car or go on many trips. I honor the music and try to reproduce it close to real and make all the efforts in the world to get it. The "snobby" accusing corner is generally by the population with mainstream equipment who cant afford it.

Thats my point, and i stand by it.

That's BEEN your point, and it's just as idiotic now as it has been all along. Your presumptions about other people have never been based on anything but your pathetic wishful thinking. Your presumptive new signature says all that needs to be said about how off-base you are. Constantly bragging about how much you spend on your system is all the more pathetic because you're also droning on about how you don't have much money when you don't even have rent or a mortgage to worry about! When you have to live on your own without mommy and daddy covering your living expenses or if you ever find other hobbies or interests, maybe you'll gain some perspective. Some of us choose to "honor the music" by supporting it -- i.e., attending concerts, buying music, befriending local musicians, etc. With $800, I'd rather spend that money to attend four SF Symphony concerts with my wife or go wild buying music, than buying one expensive interconnect.

Feanor
08-23-2006, 08:44 AM
Woochiefer has neither the knowledge nor experience to judge good equipment and doesnt own any either ,he is not in the class that he is able to comment with the likes of Joe, Bernd, Y_S and myself and this is why i and others completely disregard him.
....
The "snobby" accusing corner is generally by the population with mainstream equipment who cant afford it.

Thats my point, and i stand by it.

Because he can keep things in perspective, not to mention that his knowledge is, indeed, much greater than yours in most areas except maybe in the narrow area of ultra high-end equipment.

It is possible to enjoy music to the hilt with a $2000 system and many serious muscians and music aficionados do so and are content. Yes, you can get better sound for more money, and you might enjoy the music more on account of the better sound, but improvement comes inverse proprotion to the cost. Only a fool fails to recognize this. I'm poor so maybe my modest system is already foolishly expensive.

Maybe you shouldn't speak for Brend, Joe, and Y_S. Apparently Brend and likely the other two have a lot of money than most of us, so they can follow that road further while still balancing priorties. I'm not so sure about your case, though. It would seem you don't have any other priorties so balancing isn't necessary.

Frankly I'm skeptical when people like Joe, say it's only about the music. I kid myself not: I'm an audiophile in the bad sense that I'm not just about music but also good sound, further exaserbated by a certain technophile obsession. Then again for me the audiophilia has never been about "the best" but about the best value within a severely constrained budget. But the game is really no less fun on account of that. And I've done well, I think.

hermanv
08-23-2006, 08:46 AM
Sure the exotic equipment costs real money, but everywhere I go I see new cars. If you can afford a new car you can afford a good system. Actually, at todays car prices you can afford a damn good system. Is this the best way to spend the family money? I don't know, each must make his own decision, but the majority of you could if you wanted to.

If you buy used and carefully you can get pretty spectacular sound begining at about $5K and by the time you get to $10K you have entered the domain of the few, now you get bragging rights. Better yet, you can buy one piece at a time and spead out the purchase over 5 years as I had to.

So discuss whether the high end is is worth it all you want, but don't pretend that you are denied entry. I do understand that in todays work and pay scale enviroment it isn't getting any easier, and there will be some where this is truly impossible, still you have a computer and an internet connection, maybe more effort, more time, but still in the end, acheivable.

kexodusc
08-23-2006, 10:01 AM
The "I want to be the next Wooch".....enough said.
I'm still awaiting the Florian prodigy...


The other poster was right, this is the wrong forums for the guys and myself since there is noone who relates to the systems as much as we do. We actually have goals to get better music reproduction, and we have the knowledge and pass it on.
I suspect most others do, too. What a stupid statement, you're suggesting that you have the goal of getting better music reproduction, whereas the rest of us common folk are trying to spend money to make the sound worse. Ridiculous! Drop the narcissistic attitude already!

Acheiving better sound is absolutely the way I go about building my systems. Throwing money at it just to say I own some piece of gear other people envy isn't. Difference is, I can get so caught up enjoying the music that I don't constantly feel a need to get better and better at any price. Once you connect with the music, you aren't even thinking about how it could be better - you're missing the point.


Same as i have helped countless of others withing their pricerange but made recommendations of Brands that are unknown by Woochie and the rest because of their limited perspective in this hobby.

Limited perspective? You have no concept of the degree of experience anyone but yourself has...


People forgot that i started with a low low system and simply worked my way up and give information based on real life experience and ownership, which is quite the opposite from the mainstream guys on here.

Nope, exactly the same, as a matter of fact. Some of us might enjoy the music so much we stop buying new upgrades as frequently - . If I had to, I could listen to music on an old mono grammophone and still enjoy it. I quit upgrading when new gear just won't cause me to enjoy the music enough for me to bother.

Feanor
08-23-2006, 10:45 AM
Being an audiophile is about the pursuit, not the budget. It's more about the knowledge and desire to learn than it is about the actual execution. Gear does not an audiophile make. Knowing what to listen for, what you like to hear, and how to go about bringing your system closer to your ideal is what makes an audiophile. Doing all of this while living in your budget and taking care of your family only makes you a dedicated audiophile. Dismissing those in the sub $$$$ range as short-sighted simpletons is what makes a snob.

The game is to get the best sound you can within a budget, whether money or time, that meets your circumstances. It is not admirable dedication to exceed that limit. And I would say it's scarcely less fun to work within a budget: granted you're looking for best value rather than simply the best.

curiousburke
08-23-2006, 11:35 AM
Flo, my initial "snobby" comment was directed toward your comment not youself. First, I say this because I've been reading this forum for so short a time that I have no clue how well this comment typified you. Second, I want to clarify why I said this, and the difference between snobby and bragging. It's completely understandable that some people on this forum in search of the ultimate listening experience end up with $100K systems and they tell the rest of us about them; maybe that's bragging or just not, but it's fun to read about. Snobby (in my mind) is when comments are made about motivations of other people who are not spending lots of money. Say anything you want about your equipment or other peoples equipment, but when comments are about other people it's very different. I think this distinction is important (of course I do) because it draws a different line in the sand which I think very few comments cross over.

It seems there is a self-defined (and Flo defined) group that has come to defend Flo, (JoeE, Bernd, etc.), but do you guys also defend these statements?


I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area ...

The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.


On the second comment, it's the "serious" that I pause at. I have not read back through this thread carefully, but other statements from you guys/gals have been of a different nature.

-mark

musicoverall
08-23-2006, 11:51 AM
It is possible to enjoy music to the hilt with a $2000 system and many serious muscians and music aficionados do so and are content. Yes, you can get better sound for more money, and you might enjoy the music more on account of the better sound, but improvement comes inverse proprotion to the cost. Only a fool fails to recognize this. I'm poor so maybe my modest system is already foolishly expensive.

.

I recently was left with only my basement, less expensive system except for the turntable. Total retail cost of amplification, CDP, speakers and wire is about $4200. The turntable I kept from my first system (with arm and cartridge) cost about twice that, so you have an idea of how much my main system was worth. Note that I bought almost everything used.

At any rate, I find myself enjoying music MORE now, not less. Whether it's because I'm no longer concerning myself with sound but just concentrating on music, or whether it's because I sold the first system in order to buy a boatload of music software that came my way, I don't know. What I'm pretty sure of is that I doubt I'm ever going to go back to the relentless pursuit of "better" gear. So far, the line between recorded and live can be blurred a bit by better gear but it still sounds like a recording.

Do I miss my Maggie 20.1's and my Edge electronics? Sure. They obviously do things my current speakers and amp do not. But interestingly enough, some of the things they do are not consonant with the music. They bring out flaws in the recordings, making my enjoyment suffer. Don't get me wrong - $4200 buys a very nice little system. Nice enough that I'm also downgrading my turntable to something more befitting price-wise. I'd rather have a million dollars worth of music than the same amount in audio gear. I've always cottoned to the audiophile who, upon hearing my new piece of gear, exclaimed "God, Coltrane is wailing on this tune".

It's about the music! You obviously understand that and you're better off for it.

Mike Anderson
08-23-2006, 12:07 PM
Flo, Bernd and I are not snobs or elitists. We are music lovers.

I think the reason why people tend to get offended is because there's an implication in that statement: That somehow people who don't spend $20k+ on a system aren't music lovers, aren't serious, aren't knowledgeable, aren't trying to get accurate reproduction, aren't honoring the music, or aren't __________ [FILL IN THE BLANK].

I realize you may not be intentionally stating this, but people are drawing that inference (and sometimes reasonably so, depending on who's making the statement and how.)

I like to think of myself as a music-lover too. I just don't have tens of thousands to blow on a system. I'd love to do so, and maybe someday I'll be that rich -- but right now it just isn't possible.

Does that mean I love music less than anyone else? I don't think so. I've spent a good part of my life actually making and distributing music, for one thing (see my sig). How many audiophiles can say the same?

Woochifer
08-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Flo, my initial "snobby" comment was directed toward your comment not youself. First, I say this because I've been reading this forum for so short a time that I have no clue how well this comment typified you. Second, I want to clarify why I said this, and the difference between snobby and bragging. It's completely understandable that some people on this forum in search of the ultimate listening experience end up with $100K systems and they tell the rest of us about them; maybe that's bragging or just not, but it's fun to read about. Snobby (in my mind) is when comments are made about motivations of other people who are not spending lots of money. Say anything you want about your equipment or other peoples equipment, but when comments are about other people it's very different. I think this distinction is important (of course I do) because it draws a different line in the sand which I think very few comments cross over.

It seems there is a self-defined (and Flo defined) group that has come to defend Flo, (JoeE, Bernd, etc.), but do you guys also defend these statements?



On the second comment, it's the "serious" that I pause at. I have not read back through this thread carefully, but other statements from you guys/gals have been of a different nature.

-mark

I think you're doing fine. You've already discovered something that quite a few audiophiles never find -- perspective. That will help you as you learn more and do your own listenings and system tweaks. Noddin0ff stated it perfectly when he said that "being an audiophile is about the pursuit, not the budget." The whole discovery process does not by definition have a price tag associated with it. Learning how to properly calibrate and setup your system does not cost a dime, yet can still make an audible and verifiable improvement. Plenty of ways to improve your sound quality, and plenty of ways to waste a lot of money for minimal gain. Keeping things in perspective will help you focus on what's important and what's real, rather than what's subtle and what's imaginary.

When guys like Florian start attacking the motivation of people who choose sub-$2k systems, that's completely out of step with the reality that the average household spends less than $40 a year on audio equipment (source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2004 Consumer Expenditure Survey).

The guy who buys a $2,000 audio component system has just spent what more than 50 of his neighbors will spend on audio equipment in a given year. People like that should be openly welcomed into the audio hobby, rather than accused of being an "equipmentphile" or not "honoring the music" because they did not spend enough to satisfy the entry requirements for some arbitrarily defined "high end" threshold.

For Florian to say that a $2,000 system is somehow "mainstream" is a joke and totally detached from reality. The vast majority of people (i.e., the "mainstream") never reach even that level of investment in an audio system. If the "mainstream" indeed consisted of households buying $2,000 audio component systems, the entire industry would be in great shape. Instead, the home audio component market has declined by about 65% in real dollars since 1990, and the portable audio market is now 4x larger than the home component market. That's the trend that has to somehow reverse in order for the audio hobby to thrive, and exclusionary and snobby attitudes towards people who have already chosen to invest in the audio component market do absolutely nothing to help and actually add to the problem.

Woochifer
08-23-2006, 03:25 PM
Sure the exotic equipment costs real money, but everywhere I go I see new cars. If you can afford a new car you can afford a good system. Actually, at todays car prices you can afford a damn good system. Is this the best way to spend the family money? I don't know, each must make his own decision, but the majority of you could if you wanted to.

If you buy used and carefully you can get pretty spectacular sound begining at about $5K and by the time you get to $10K you have entered the domain of the few, now you get bragging rights. Better yet, you can buy one piece at a time and spead out the purchase over 5 years as I had to.

So discuss whether the high end is is worth it all you want, but don't pretend that you are denied entry. I do understand that in todays work and pay scale enviroment it isn't getting any easier, and there will be some where this is truly impossible, still you have a computer and an internet connection, maybe more effort, more time, but still in the end, acheivable.

The car analogy's not exactly applicable because you're mixing needs with wants, and as much as I enjoy audio, I don't regard it as a need, or at least not to be mentioned in the same breath with housing, food, and transportation costs. Sure a new car is in the five-figure range on cost, but consider that the vast majority of households have at least one car. In most parts of the country, you need a car to reasonably get to work, to run errands, to get the kids to school, etc. The same does not hold true for home audio component systems, and the amount that households on average spend on audio reflects what's truly necessary and what's simply nice to have.

I rechecked the Consumer Expenditure Survey data, and while the average household spends a grand total of $41 a year on audio equipment (my earlier figure was in error), the average annual expenditures for automobiles and fuel average $5,020 per household. That's more than a 120-to-1 differential! So, when you see all those new cars on the road and wonder where people's priorities are, there you have it. Unless you live in Manhattan, the odds are good that you own a car and have to absorb those expenses into your budget.

Spending on groceries and eating out also averages just over $5,000 a year. Incidentally, spending on alcoholic beverages averages about $255 a year -- more than 6x what people spend on audio equipment! Forget about telling people to stop buying cars when all they gotta do is cut down on the booze consumption! :D

hermanv
08-23-2006, 03:41 PM
I didn't literally mean buy a stereo instead of a car. Many people buy much fancier cars than the basic need requires. Giant SUV?

I only meant that most poeple could re-arrange their buget to afford a nice stereo. Whether they want to or not, I can't answer.

JoeE SP9
08-23-2006, 03:44 PM
Where did anyone get the idea I had any substantial amount of money. Let me repeat.

Most of my gear was bought used.

My Acoustat Spectra 22/SPW-1's have been in my possesion for 8 years.
The Model 1's I bought 2 years ago
I bought my SP9 ten years ago.
My VPI Jr was bought new in 1986 after saving for 3 months. I did buy this new.
I scrimp and save to buy quality stuff. I don't like repeat buying.
I am an engineer and I believe a good product should last forever (sic). The things that I buy are all purchased after lots of thought with the idea that I will never need to replace them.

A good example of this is my bicycle. It is 23 years old. I had a frame custom made after saving up for 4 months. After taking delivery on that frame it sat on a stand in the corner of my living room for another 3 months while I bought the rest of the parts. I bought all Campagnolo and Cinelli parts. Every single original part of that bicycle is still on it with the exception of the pedals and of course tires which wear out. Ten years ago I switched the Campagnolo pedals for some Look clipless. I gave the old Campy pedals to my brother who is using them on his bike. So please; I don't have a lot of money just a will to have the best so it will last. I understand the concept of delayed gratification.:cool:

JoeE SP9
08-23-2006, 03:58 PM
Because he can keep things in perspective, not to mention that his knowledge is, indeed, much greater than yours in most areas except maybe in the narrow area of ultra high-end equipment.

It is possible to enjoy music to the hilt with a $2000 system and many serious muscians and music aficionados do so and are content. Yes, you can get better sound for more money, and you might enjoy the music more on account of the better sound, but improvement comes inverse proprotion to the cost. Only a fool fails to recognize this. I'm poor so maybe my modest system is already foolishly expensive.

Maybe you shouldn't speak for Brend, Joe, and Y_S. Apparently Brend and likely the other two have a lot of money than most of us, so they can follow that road further while still balancing priorties. I'm not so sure about your case, though. It would seem you don't have any other priorties so balancing isn't necessary.

Frankly I'm skeptical when people like Joe, say it's only about the music. I kid myself not: I'm an audiophile in the bad sense that I'm not just about music but also good sound, further exaserbated by a certain technophile obsession. Then again for me the audiophilia has never been about "the best" but about the best value within a severely constrained budget. But the game is really no less fun on account of that. And I've done well, I think.

Please note. I have never bragged about what I have or anything like that. I've merely been at this longer than a lot of you have been alive. This has allowed me to accumulate a certain amount of stuff. The thing I should brag about is the >2500 LP's and >1500 CD's I have. Not to mention several hundred DVD's, VHS tapes, cassettes and open reel tapes. As I said, for me it is about the music. I bought my first LP when I bought my first piece of gear (1967). That LP is still in my collection and still playable.:ihih:

Feanor
08-23-2006, 04:11 PM
Please note. I have never bragged about what I have or anything like that. I've merely been at this longer than a lot of you have been alive. This has allowed me to accumulate a certain amount of stuff. The thing I should brag about is the >2500 LP's and >1500 CD's I have. Not to mention several hundred DVD's, VHS tapes, cassettes and open reel tapes. As I said, for me it is about the music. I bought my first LP when I bought my first piece of gear (1967). That LP is still in my collection and still playable.:ihih:

I don't lump you in the same category as Florian: he is a foolish, arrogant young man, though perhaps he'll learn someday.

I got into hifi about 1971 at about the same age as Flo is today. I had a long hiatus of about 15 years during which I listen to relatively little music and bought no equipment. I'm recovering from that lapse nowadays. If I too am foolish or arrogant, well at least I'm not young.

musicoverall
08-23-2006, 05:12 PM
Please note. I have never bragged about what I have or anything like that. I've merely been at this longer than a lot of you have been alive. This has allowed me to accumulate a certain amount of stuff. The thing I should brag about is the >2500 LP's and >1500 CD's I have. Not to mention several hundred DVD's, VHS tapes, cassettes and open reel tapes. As I said, for me it is about the music. I bought my first LP when I bought my first piece of gear (1967). That LP is still in my collection and still playable.:ihih:

So cheer up! :D

BTW, the VPI HW-19 Jr was the first piece of audiophile gear I ever bought. I bought it with the Mk III platter and clamp and the Rega RB300 arm. Beautiful! As luck would have it, a local dealer has a used one - same light oak base, mk III platter and one piece clamp with an RB600 arm. It's mine in about 13 hours! :)

likeitloud
08-23-2006, 05:37 PM
Whooa, I did'nt want to really single anyone out (sorry if It looked that way), I just
thought 2 members were over the line on how a guy spends alot of time and energy
helping out us new members get back into this hobbie. It was just a cheap shot,
IMO, Joe E/bernd I can certainly relate to your gear list, and I've never seen you
pushing anything, and bernd your reviews in rave recordings and input in the forum
have been helpful, to me anyway. Lets all have a brew, kick out some jams, and
chill. Hey, were's superpanavision, aw ferget it. Later

JoeE SP9
08-23-2006, 06:04 PM
So cheer up! :D

BTW, the VPI HW-19 Jr was the first piece of audiophile gear I ever bought. I bought it with the Mk III platter and clamp and the Rega RB300 arm. Beautiful! As luck would have it, a local dealer has a used one - same light oak base, mk III platter and one piece clamp with an RB600 arm. It's mine in about 13 hours! :)

Go for it. Over the years I've brought mine up to full HW-19 specs. The RB300 has a new stub, weight and VTA adjuster.:cool:

Bernd
08-23-2006, 11:45 PM
So cheer up! :D

BTW, the VPI HW-19 Jr was the first piece of audiophile gear I ever bought. I bought it with the Mk III platter and clamp and the Rega RB300 arm. Beautiful! As luck would have it, a local dealer has a used one - same light oak base, mk III platter and one piece clamp with an RB600 arm. It's mine in about 13 hours! :)

Congrats.:cornut: That is a fine TT and a great arm. I used to have the RB600. A couple of tips to raise the performance. Get a Michell counterweight and dump the stock Rega one. Also dissable the spring loaded VTF. Then re-wire the arm with the Incognito set. You will now have a giant killer.
Have fun.

Peace

Bernd:16:

Bernd
08-23-2006, 11:57 PM
Whooa, I did'nt want to really single anyone out (sorry if It looked that way), I just
thought 2 members were over the line on how a guy spends alot of time and energy
helping out us new members get back into this hobbie. It was just a cheap shot,
IMO, Joe E/bernd I can certainly relate to your gear list, and I've never seen you
pushing anything, and bernd your reviews in rave recordings and input in the forum
have been helpful, to me anyway. Lets all have a brew, kick out some jams, and
chill. Hey, were's superpanavision, aw ferget it. Later

Thanks. That's exactly what I did last night. Kicking back and let the music play.
As I write this I am in my Study and the music comes from a Teac Mini system through Wharfedale 9.1 Speakers. Sounds damn fine.
I totally understand musicoveralls point. It's the music that comes first and high equipment price does certainly not equate with emotional connection of the music and you.
When I am ready to buy I audition and then audition some more. If I could only afford a 2K system I would not enjoy the toones any less. Hell I am listening and singing along (on my own mind) in my car.
I have no doubt that a very decent sound can be adchieved for little outlay, as long as the compromises aren't getting in the way of the enjoyment. And there are compromises. No perfect this or that exists yet.
I have been at this for over 30 years and have made some costly mistakes and can hopefully prevent someone starting out repeating these.
One more point. I have absolutly no interest in HT or surround sound and to my mind a sub has no business in a 2 channel music set up.

Peace

Bernd:16:

Bernd
08-24-2006, 02:06 AM
It seems there is a self-defined (and Flo defined) group that has come to defend Flo, (JoeE, Bernd, etc.), but do you guys also defend these statements?


-mark

To make that crystal clear. As far as I know there is no self defined group. Florian can defend himself very well without any help. And no I do not agree with everything that is put, but I will defend the right to say it.

Peace

Bernd:16:

superpanavision70mm
08-24-2006, 02:33 AM
This thread is beyond rediculous. In any other hobby it wouldn't even exist. When you go to a car show of classic cars....every person showing off their car is a 'car enthusiast' or 'car-o-phile'. Even the people visiting the show could be categorized as such. However, it's not the same in audiophile-land now is it? If someone doesn't even own a system than they can't be considering an audiophile even though they do enjoy going around and listening to others systems or just enjoying music. Likewise you wouldn't see 2 people arguing at a car show because one person has spent $80,000 on their vehicle restoration while someonen else only spend $15,000. It's about the passion people! The very fact that we are having these arguments only go to show that some people have lost that passion and are more interested in arguing what an audiophile is or isn't.

musicoverall
08-24-2006, 03:55 AM
Thanks. That's exactly what I did last night. Kicking back and let the music play.
As I write this I am in my Study and the music comes from a Teac Mini system through Wharfedale 9.1 Speakers. Sounds damn fine.
I totally understand musicoveralls point. It's the music that comes first and high equipment price does certainly not equate with emotional connection of the music and you.
When I am ready to buy I audition and then audition some more. If I could only afford a 2K system I would not enjoy the toones any less. Hell I am listening and singing along (on my own mind) in my car.
I have no doubt that a very decent sound can be adchieved for little outlay, as long as the compromises aren't getting in the way of the enjoyment. And there are compromises. No perfect this or that exists yet.
I have been at this for over 30 years and have made some costly mistakes and can hopefully prevent someone starting out repeating these.
One more point. I have absolutly no interest in HT or surround sound and to my mind a sub has no business in a 2 channel music set up.

Peace

Bernd:16:

What it boiled down to for me is that I can't serve two masters - one of them has to be cut back. When someone tells me that he is going to estate auction off a massive number of old LP's - Blue Notes, Prestiges, New Jazz, El Saturn, etc - along with a boatload of rare jazz 78's but I get first crack at them, well.... the gear had to be sold for me to come up with the $15K. I bought the whole shebang. This was a major find. The decision took me all of about 3.4 seconds and I've never regretted it for one second.

My system now consists of a Denon PMA-2000 integrated amp and the matching CDP, my Marantz PDR500 CD recorder, Sota Time Domain 1 loudspeakers (before the turntable company was bought by Kirk, they made speakers - reasonably nice ones), Tara Prism 22 I/C's and Kimber 4PR speaker wire. This was my second system. The new VPI will fit in quite nicely. Oh, I also have an NAD cassette deck that I haven't used in awhile. This is all decent gear, but it puts my more expensive stuff to shame because it's playing an insane amount of music that the other never had the opportunity to play.

Hey Joe! I'm bragging about the LP's! And I feel great! See? - it's ok! LOL! :D

JoeE SP9
08-24-2006, 04:33 AM
What it boiled down to for me is that I can't serve two masters - one of them has to be cut back. When someone tells me that he is going to estate auction off a massive number of old LP's - Blue Notes, Prestiges, New Jazz, El Saturn, etc - along with a boatload of rare jazz 78's but I get first crack at them, well.... the gear had to be sold for me to come up with the $15K. I bought the whole shebang. This was a major find. The decision took me all of about 3.4 seconds and I've never regretted it for one second.

My system now consists of a Denon PMA-2000 integrated amp and the matching CDP, my Marantz PDR500 CD recorder, Sota Time Domain 1 loudspeakers (before the turntable company was bought by Kirk, they made speakers - reasonably nice ones), Tara Prism 22 I/C's and Kimber 4PR speaker wire. This was my second system. The new VPI will fit in quite nicely. Oh, I also have an NAD cassette deck that I haven't used in awhile. This is all decent gear, but it puts my more expensive stuff to shame because it's playing an insane amount of music that the other never had the opportunity to play.

Hey Joe! I'm bragging about the LP's! And I feel great! See? - it's ok! LOL! :D

I would sell my gear in a hot minute for a deal like that. The gear is replaceable a collection like that is not.:)

JoeE SP9
08-24-2006, 04:40 AM
Congrats.:cornut: That is a fine TT and a great arm. I used to have the RB600. A couple of tips to raise the performance. Get a Michell counterweight and dump the stock Rega one. Also dissable the spring loaded VTF. Then re-wire the arm with the Incognito set. You will now have a giant killer.
Have fun.

Peace

Bernd:16:

I've done just about all of that except the re-wire. My TT is ~20years old so I've had plenty of time to do mods on it. My current RB300 is the second Rega arm that has been installed on it. Without a sub my ESL's just don't have enough bass. Having one crossover at 85hz means seamless sound everywhere else especially in the midrange. I consider it a small price to pay. Plus I get floor shaking, pants flapping, door rattling bass if I want it. All I have to do is turn the bass level up on my crossover. All music is played strictly 2 channel unless it is mixed for multi channel. I only have 2 CD's mixed for multi. One is a sampler. :cool:

Bernd
08-24-2006, 05:03 AM
Yep, a collection like that would be the winner every time. A no-brainer. That is one hell of a find musicoverall. Congrats.:) How many records were there in total?

Joe I understand why you use a sub. My ART Emotions however have such clean deep bass that I have absolutly no need for a sub. So no integration issue.

Peace

Bernd:16:

musicoverall
08-24-2006, 06:31 AM
Yep, a collection like that would be the winner every time. A no-brainer. That is one hell of a find musicoverall. Congrats.:) How many records were there in total?

Joe I understand why you use a sub. My ART Emotions however have such clean deep bass that I have absolutly no need for a sub. So no integration issue.

Peace

Bernd:16:

I counted them once but now have forgotten the count! Somewhere in the 3000 range, all told. About 800 of them were 78's. I still have not listened to them all. Some of them are dupes of what I already owned but I wasn't allowed to cherry pick. All in all, I got more than full value for the cost(s).

The funny thing is that this guy was a neighbor of mine - lived about half a block away - and I never knew him, and certainly didn't know what a diehard jazz fan he was. When he died, I asked his widow if I could help her in any way and the first thing she said was "Gosh, I don't have any idea how to get rid of all his old records!".

Hey, I was happy to help! That's the kinda guy I am! :D

musicoverall
08-24-2006, 06:35 AM
I've done just about all of that except the re-wire. My TT is ~20years old so I've had plenty of time to do mods on it. My current RB300 is the second Rega arm that has been installed on it. Without a sub my ESL's just don't have enough bass. Having one crossover at 85hz means seamless sound everywhere else especially in the midrange. I consider it a small price to pay. Plus I get floor shaking, pants flapping, door rattling bass if I want it. All I have to do is turn the bass level up on my crossover. All music is played strictly 2 channel unless it is mixed for multi channel. I only have 2 CD's mixed for multi. One is a sampler. :cool:

I'm familiar with enough of it to believe that it plays music well and I'm sure you're getting a hell of a lot of enjoyment from it. :cornut:

Eventually I'll drop in the new counterweight but I'll probably skip the Incognito wiring thing. I'm going to take this opportunity to kinda drop out of the equipment upgrade race and I have this feeling that replacing ANY kind of wire is going to bump me right back in there! :)

Bernd
08-24-2006, 06:45 AM
Incognito, Incognito, Incognito.......once the seed is planted. Well you know....:cornut:

No but seriously this will help you to keep the RB600 for a long time.I know what you mean about the upgradetitis. I owned a perfectly great Michell Orbe with Technoarm A and NC powersupply, but I wanted (not needed) to own an SME TT and arm. I don't think I will change that. I am very happy with my set up and it plays the toones exactly how I like to listen to them. So money well spent.
I think you have got a great deal on the Vinyl. I am not envious, honest, no I am not.:ciappa:
Have fun sorting them all. Have you got the new TT?

Peace

Bernd:16:

superpanavision70mm
08-24-2006, 07:39 AM
That is one serious collection and indeed a great deal. Sometimes it's a cool thing to get duplicates for several reasons. 1. It allows you to choose the better condition of the two and 2. it gives you the power to either sell one or use it for display. 3. You can play one to death and still have one kept in good condition.

musicoverall
08-24-2006, 09:23 AM
That is one serious collection and indeed a great deal. Sometimes it's a cool thing to get duplicates for several reasons. 1. It allows you to choose the better condition of the two and 2. it gives you the power to either sell one or use it for display. 3. You can play one to death and still have one kept in good condition.

One of the first things I did after I went through and sorted by artist was to pick out his copy of Jackie McLean's "One Step Beyond" and play it. Mine always had noise on a couple of tracks that I could never clean off. His is pristine - quiet as a tomb. On the flip side, his copy of Sonny Rollins' "Volume 2" looks pretty tuckered out and mine is mint.

Most of his look and sound very well maintained. I asked his wife how he cleaned them and she said "Oh, I never had any problem getting him to do the dishes because after they were done, he'd start washing his records in the sink". No vac cleaner or fancy audiophile solvents, just Dawn, I guess. But apparently he was quiet anal about it, as he would clean his records for his Thursday night listening session on Wednesdays, and so forth.

musicoverall
08-24-2006, 09:28 AM
Incognito, Incognito, Incognito.......once the seed is planted. Well you know....:cornut:

No but seriously this will help you to keep the RB600 for a long time.I know what you mean about the upgradetitis. I owned a perfectly great Michell Orbe with Technoarm A and NC powersupply, but I wanted (not needed) to own an SME TT and arm. I don't think I will change that. I am very happy with my set up and it plays the toones exactly how I like to listen to them. So money well spent.
I think you have got a great deal on the Vinyl. I am not envious, honest, no I am not.:ciappa:
Have fun sorting them all. Have you got the new TT?

Peace

Bernd:16:

Yep, got the new table. Can't wait to try it out. And mark this post, because if a year from now it's been upgraded to Mk IV status, I'd like you to shoot me!

Dig jazz, man! :1:

JoeE SP9
08-24-2006, 11:15 AM
Yep, got the new table. Can't wait to try it out. And mark this post, because if a year from now it's been upgraded to Mk IV status, I'd like you to shoot me!

Dig jazz, man! :1:

Congrats! May you keep yours as long as I have kept mine. I can't do anything else to my TT. Re-wiring the arm just hasn't been that important to me.:cool:

JoeE SP9
08-24-2006, 11:21 AM
Yep, a collection like that would be the winner every time. A no-brainer. That is one hell of a find musicoverall. Congrats.:) How many records were there in total?

Joe I understand why you use a sub. My ART Emotions however have such clean deep bass that I have absolutly no need for a sub. So no integration issue.

Peace

Bernd:16:

The crossover for my subs is the only crossover. Every other speaker has crossovers somewhere unless it's a full range ESL. Any crossover at all means an integration issue. That lack of crossover is one of the things that make ESL's so good!:ihih:

spacedeckman
08-25-2006, 08:08 PM
If your goal is to get the best sound for whatever your budget is, you are an audiophile. If your goal is to improve the sound you have in any fashion, you are an audiophile. If you want to buy an amplifier because it has 10 more watts than your current one, you are NOT an audiophile.

Audiophilia is not about budget, it's about creating a system that satifies you while meeting your own personal criteria.

3-LockBox
08-25-2006, 10:10 PM
The electronics geak in me would love to play with some high end gear, but the piece of me that is just looking for listening pleasure is happy with the $30 t-amp.

I derrive a lot of pleasure in spending as little as possible on my set-up, though I did spend $100 bucks on my Super T amp. It was worth it. I build my own speakers, so I save a ton there. You're not the only one happy to just listen to a T-amp.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html

JoeE SP9
08-26-2006, 09:55 AM
For me it's never been about the cost/price. There has only been one question I ever ask. Will it make my system sound demonstrably better? Nothing else matters. :cool:

spacedeckman
08-26-2006, 12:13 PM
For me it's never been about the cost/price. There has only been one question I ever ask. Will it make my system sound demonstrably better? Nothing else matters. :cool:

For many, budget doesn't matter, however, I was referring to those trying to build a system on a budget, but refusing to consider themselves "audiophiles". I've heard some sub$1500 systems that were amazingly satisfying. Heard one a couple of months ago where the hardware was under $1k (barely), but WOW, it was doing a whole lotta stuff right.

Space

JoeE SP9
08-26-2006, 03:22 PM
Saving for what I want is how I do it. My system has been capable of playing music since 1967. From that point on I have been on the upgrade path. Sometimes I don't buy any gear for several years. When I get the urge I save for what I want. Like everyone I have budget constraints. Paying $2500 for a used preamp is a process that may take me six months, 2/3 of that time saving. Although I am in that process now I'm not a fanatic about it. I'll never own a pair of Apogee Grand's but what I have is very satisfying to me. There are only two reasons why I'm looking at preamps. Remote control and theater input bypass. My ARC has neither.
When I'm asked how much for "good" sound? I usually say. "For $1500 you can get sound that I consider fairly decent." That amount is close what people see when they're in circuit city looking at their best rack systems. Of course that's for 2-channel audio. For those who are the least bit handy I recommend speaker kits. You get a lot more sound for your money if you're able to do a little assembly. For those who are willing I'll recommend used gear. There's not much in the way of multichannel at reasonable prices on the used market. I would not recommend or buy a used receiver from any of the majors. That stuff is worth diddly next year. Most of the used high end multichannel gear is too expensive even on the used market. I'll just wait for the prices to come down.
I started with a Fisher KX-90 tube amplifier kit, Benjamin Miracord TT/Pickering cart. and a pair of AR 2's. It has been a long steady journey since then.:cool:

PHiX
08-26-2006, 04:47 PM
I am not an audiophile at all, enthusiast yes.


I'm perfectly happy playing cd's on a dvd player and have my receiver do the d/a processing.

I'm glad too, because I dont have the money to spend grands on audio equipment. Sure, I'm sure that many people here have better systems, but the difference in price to get a little gain in audio quality just is not worth it to me.

I like nice gadgets, but I won't buy top of the line unless I win a lottery.

hermanv
08-28-2006, 09:10 AM
...edit... If you want to buy an amplifier because it has 10 more watts than your current one, you are NOT an audiophile ....edit...It's not the ten watts, its that way cool machined aluminum panel and that blue LED.

No wait, there the one with the wood inlay, wait there's the tubes in plexiglass, wait, see through windows with mirrors behind the vacuum tubes, no, no, no, argh!

JDavenportBriggsIV
08-30-2006, 12:58 PM
Agreed. You will never be an audiophile.

JD Briggs
Maine

JoeE SP9
08-30-2006, 02:40 PM
Agreed. You will never be an audiophile.

JD Briggs
Maine

What makes you think you are?:ihih: