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evln
02-02-2004, 05:13 AM
:confused: What are happening here?
:mad: They decreased the weight of the speakers and/or the structure ?
Is this for to open spaces in the market for Signature line?
Any clue??

** weight are per pair

Studio 100v2 --> int. vol. 97 liters - weight 109 Kg
Studio 60v2 ---> int. vol. 52 liters - weight 80 kg
Studio 40v2 ---> int. vol. 23 liters - weight 36 Kg
Studio 20v2 ---> int. vol. 13 liters - weight 25 Kg


Studio 100v3 --> int. vol. 67 liters - weight 73,6 Kg
Studio 60v3 ---> int. vol. 61 liters - weight 63,6 Kg
Studio 40v3 ---> int. vol. 23 liters - weight 31,8 Kg
Studio 20v3 ---> int. vol. 15 liters - weight 19,6 Kg

Carlos from Brazil.

kexodusc
02-02-2004, 09:58 AM
Chill out, dude...it's not like it was in the 70's when you could judge reliable equipment by their weight...geez, some manufacturers purposely add dead weight just to fool consumers. At least, I wouldn't always jude speakers by weight anymore...some of these Kenwood receivers would make good frisbies.

I never checked the weights of the speakers, but when I sampled the new Studio 20's I found them to be just a tad bit better than my v2's. Of course stuff always sounds better in store, but I don't think these have necessarily dropped in quality even if they are lighter.
There's some really heavy Bose speakers out there...

evln
02-02-2004, 10:23 AM
:confused: But they are the same loudspeakers, it will be they replaced high density MDF for Cork and/or they alleviated the magneto in the speakers? I find very strange that!!!

In the 100v3 for example, they eliminated 1/3 of internal volume in the comparison with 100 v2, at least these new version will be sounding very different than before.

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

kexodusc
02-02-2004, 10:36 AM
Well, that could very well be. There's different sizes and densities of MDF too. I doubt they're using cork or anything cheap like that. But they may have switched to a particle board. This should have turned up in sound tests though, and with a process for manufacturing already in place, I can't imagine they'd do that...

Woochifer
02-02-2004, 01:14 PM
Basically, the weight of the v.3 Studios is about the same as the v.1 versions, and the Signature weight is about the same as the v.2 Studio series. I think the difference is that the extra bracing that Paradigm put into the v.2 Studio cabinets is not there anymore with the v.3 versions. But, rather than obsess about the weight, I think you should try comparing the sound, and on that count the v.3 is an audible step up from the v.2 (the imaging improvement alone is startling). Supposedly, the new drivers and the mount damping are a huge improvement from what was used in the v.2, and that heavy bracing system that they introduced with the v.2 might not be necessary anymore. Paradigm's brochures still identify MDF cabinetry for the Studio models.

evln
02-02-2004, 02:22 PM
Ok, ok, only hearing them, but I think this supposed extra ballast would be related with the internal volume, what tells me about the 40's, where the weight decrease besides volume be the same.

ARAM
02-02-2004, 05:26 PM
Now a good speaker means a good cabinet..a good cabinet means an inert structure..that means heavy bracing..heavy bracing means more weight..two times two is four..this is so simple..I give you some examples..Look at VMPS RM40..the speaker is a massive 109 kg..I will tell you another one..Equinox Audio Jupiter speakers..this one is massive as well..155kg.(each..not a pair)..
maybe I am obsessed with weight::))...lol..

bturk667
02-02-2004, 05:54 PM
Well, that could very well be. There's different sizes and densities of MDF too. I doubt they're using cork or anything cheap like that. But they may have switched to a particle board. This should have turned up in sound tests though, and with a process for manufacturing already in place, I can't imagine they'd do that...

MDF, stand for Medium Density Fiber board. There are however different densities of fiber board. By the way, one reason they use MDF, is because it is cheap!

RGA
02-02-2004, 05:59 PM
It Depends on the design not the weight. Many speakers put drivers in a box and then try and deaden resonances as much as possible with lots of foam or dense materials which add weight. My speakers have the total reverse philosophy where instead of capturing the resonances in the box it attempts to release them instantaneously. The cabinet is undamped and has the box itself take part in the reproduction of sound. Thus it does not apppologise for being being a boxed speaker it does not try and hide or mute the box it gets the box to serve, basically, as another driver. The speakers then also use walls to reinforce some of that sound...similar in some respects to the Klipsh KHorn which needs to be in a corner because that speaker requires the walls as reinforcement. Not exactly the same but you get the idea. Audio Note removed the ferro-fluid sooling system because it served to damp and tus slug the high frequency response. And since the speaker has an internal openess the air can cool the drivers.

This does not mean the speaker isn't well braced it's just not filled with a bunch of crap to deaden resonances - if you don't create them or you can get rid of them fast enough then basically you fdon't have a problem with resonances in the speaker...and all deadening systems have to release the resonance at some point. Which is my the Monitor 7 and a lot of floorstanding speakers in this price range and even ones for a LOT more have a lot of problems with resonances because the quality of the cabinets are poor, no thought has been paid to the actual box design or they simply cannot mdeadedn the box to fit the price they want to sell the speaker for.

Probably a reason thatthe Monitor 5 and B&W 602S3 are the best speakers in those lines. Theses speakers use less cheap cabinitry so less resonances. Plus the stands you put these speakers on are often more controlled at your or the users end so if you have a very dead stand it isn't going to sing along with the music unintentionally.

It may be Paradigm is cheaping out on deading material to make their Signature look better by comparison...heavy cost more to ship. OR, it may be that Paradigm is using a better cabinet material or a way to dissapate the resonance without as much stuff to slug the sound. If the latter is the case then perhaps the treble can open up a buit and sound a bit less shut in.

I am interested to hear them and may be able to compare the V2 directly against the V3. I would also like to compare it to new offerings from several other brands so I'll have to wait to make the trip until everyone coes out with their new lines.

The other thing is that the speaker may be physically smaller? If that's the case then the weight would go down proportionally...anyone cheack that?

evln
02-02-2004, 07:42 PM
Would it be hard to get a Paradigm's official explanation?
Otherwise go all of us keep supposing several things without arriving to verdict.

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

ARAM
02-03-2004, 06:33 AM
it would be almost impossible to get a public explanation for this matter from Paradigm..They just don't..company secret..

evln
02-03-2004, 08:04 AM
Well,

Then, the only way to know is dismounting the v2 and v3 to will compare them.

In this doubt situation I would advise: Nobody buy v3s!!!! and perhaps, Signature too !!!!

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

kexodusc
02-03-2004, 08:21 AM
That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Who gives a damn how much speakers weigh, as long as they SOUND better!!!
I own Studio 20's and Studio 40's both version 2's...I demoed the V3's and quite honestly, I thought they sounded a fair bit better. Enough so that I was considering selling and upgrading until I heard the Signatures series.
What do you do with your speakers, weight them? Use them as paper-weights?
I wouldn't care if they were made out of cardboard and duct tape if they improved the sound over the previous model.
If you've got to rely on a kilogram weight statistic to judge sound quality, you're in the wrong hobby anyway.

evln
02-03-2004, 09:03 AM
Hey friend, I already realized that you are a Paradigm's Fan, OK!!
I also have a v2 but I do not be stockholder of Paradigm!!

If you do not find neither a little strange everything this and likes the sound of the v3, all right, buy how many v3 wants;

I do not embark in this, for me, weight decrease without explanation = quality decrease.

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

Woochifer
02-03-2004, 11:32 AM
Hey friend, I already realized that you are a Paradigm's Fan, OK!!
I also have a v2 but I do not be stockholder of Paradigm!!

If you do not find neither a little strange everything this and likes the sound of the v3, all right, buy how many v3 wants;

I do not embark in this, for me, weight decrease without explanation = quality decrease.

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

Sorry, but one to one relationship of weight = quality is just bizarre. It has nothing to do with being a fan of Paradigm or not, or being a stockholder. I own a set of v.2 Studios and I also had my misgivings about the weight reduction, until I heard the new speakers for myself and that changed everything. Even though I don't like the construction of the grilles and that rubberized material that they use on the tops of the speakers, there's no denying that the sound has improved as did other aspects of the speaker's design -- like the better binding posts in the back and moving the port vent to the front of the cabinet.

Before you go making inane conclusions about something based strictly on a spec sheet (and not even anything relevant to the performance, but just the WEIGHT), do yourself a favor and give the speakers a listen. THEN come back to the board and reiterate your conclusion that weight decrease equals quality decrease.

In audio, the sound quality is what matters, and the v.3 Studio series is sizable step up from the v.2 version (especially the Studio 20, which I would put up against any other speaker in the $800 range). If weight is all that matters, then I should've just taken my parents' vintage 70 lb. JBLs and never bothered to listen to anything else.

kexodusc
02-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Sorry friend, I don't own any stock in Paradigm, I don't even think it's a publicly traded company, wish I did, then I'd be able to afford more speakers.
I still don't know how you can say a speaker you've never heard sounds worse than its predecessor just because it's lighter or has less internal volume?
Wouldn't you feel silly if those two characteristics were what made it sound better?

evln
02-03-2004, 02:18 PM
I'm sorry guys, but will not be I who will do upgrade from v2 to v3 or Signature, therefore neither I want to hear them, in my next update I'm going to pay much more but I will choose a solid wood loudspeaker, these MDF's are very unstable, they vary according to manufacturer's humor.

Good Luck,

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

newbsterv2
02-03-2004, 03:04 PM
You're right man!!! My maggie's are the lightest of the bunch and will smoke them all!!! Think OUTSIDE the box. And as far as RGA's resonanting boxes are concerned I find that amusing. Last time I heard my old Kenwood speakers' wood boomin' it wasn't a very good sound to hear. My $0.02.




That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Who gives a damn how much speakers weigh, as long as they SOUND better!!!
I own Studio 20's and Studio 40's both version 2's...I demoed the V3's and quite honestly, I thought they sounded a fair bit better. Enough so that I was considering selling and upgrading until I heard the Signatures series.
What do you do with your speakers, weight them? Use them as paper-weights?
I wouldn't care if they were made out of cardboard and duct tape if they improved the sound over the previous model.
If you've got to rely on a kilogram weight statistic to judge sound quality, you're in the wrong hobby anyway.

Woochifer
02-03-2004, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry guys, but will not be I who will do upgrade from v2 to v3 or Signature, therefore neither I want to hear them, in my next update I'm going to pay much more but I will choose a solid wood loudspeaker, these MDF's are very unstable, they vary according to manufacturer's humor.

Good Luck,

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

Solid wood?
Unstable MDF?

What planet are you from?

Basically, no company I'm aware of makes its speakers out of "solid wood." Even if they look like solid wood on the outside, they are typically particle board, MDF, or some kind of composite material underneath.

Those v.2 Studios that you say you have? Those ARE made out of "unstable" MDF! The reason why speaker manufacturers went to MDF in the first place is because their tonal characteristics are easier to control for than solid wood. Solid wood has inconsistent densities, plus knots and uneven grain. My parents' vintage JBLs had solid walnut cabinets, but my MDF-based Paradigms are much more inert.

For you to spout off about the weight of a speaker and then basically say that you won't even bother to listen to the v.3 Studios or Signatures says a lot about where your priorities are, and the level of ignorance that goes with your credit card. I hope you find occasion to upgrade to "solid wood" speakers soon, because as a fellow v.2 Studio owner, I'd hate to think that anyone can arrive at the same conclusion that I did with so little regard for what speakers actually sound like.

evln
02-03-2004, 05:12 PM
Fellow, my objective when I opened this topic was to try opening a technical discussion about this subject and to try to know if someone would know about something more concrete, as it seems that there is nobody, this discussion goes out from the reason and sends for passion; I really like a lot of my 80v2 and I believe that in my case only could compare to 80v3 if was possible but is not possible, because I know well mines and I know how to would tell if something bad happened with your successor v3.

I know that objective to launch a new version is to improve previous version, however I think there was a very profound modification in this loudspeakers, there was no need to do all this modification and you know well this, because these speakers always went bestsellers in its market segment.

I am going to upgrade futurely v2 for other best with more massive gabinet, this is the natural way of things.

My English is bad and can create a misunderstanding.

I hope do not come back anymore in this subject.


Good Luck,

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

RGA
02-03-2004, 07:27 PM
Firstly I have to say not being a fan of the Paradigms that if it is indeed true that there has been a MAJOR change to them then I may be more impressed than ever because there were parts of the sound I admired parts I simply could never live with the V2.

They were never bestsellers on a world wide market and do practically nothing outside of the NorthAmerican markets. They have next to zero presence in Europe or Asia. The latter being heavily into tubes and the Paradigms not being propelry driven no doubt.

Stop reading Paradigm's literature and reviews and opinions and listen to them. I have called for a big re-think of the Paradigm speakers...apparently by curtting the volume and weight and chaniging drivers and crossovers they might be onto something I would like. Still not a lover of metal tweeters, but perhapsthey can strike a balance between Vandersteen's usge and the V2 usage. Nxt time I'm out at my dealer I will give em a good healthy listen along with the New line from B&W, Reference 3a, my own speakers of course, and the new Linn line-up holds some interest as well.

evln
02-04-2004, 06:52 AM
Finally a coherent technical reply for what are happening:

"A brochure from Paradigm states that all of the Studio v3 drivers are decoupled from their enclosures by a rubber mounting system, and also claims that this reduces enclosure resonance and vibration to extremely low levels.

Given that, Paradigm probably figures that they don't need as much mass and bracing in the cabinets.

The brochure says nothing about the reason for the reduced internal volume, however."

"But this is the plastic age,
the quiet rage is damned and civilized."

--Echobelly, "Ondine"

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br

This Guy
02-04-2004, 01:49 PM
To my understanding the V2 uses two 8" woofers and the V3 uses three 7" woofers. All speaker drivers will act and perform differently in different enclosures. Some will need big ones some will need smaller ones, that's how it's made. The two 8" woofers probably had a higher VAS then these 7" woofers. The 8"ers needed a bigger box to be tuned to the frequency that Paradigm wanted, now these three 7" woofers definently had different specs then the 8". The 7" obviously needed a smaller box to get to the frequency they wanted to get to. Also, the addition of another woofer in the V3 also made it more efficient. If they were to put the V3 drivers in the same box of the V2, the woofers would bottom out at a lower volume and hence the V3 was made in a smaller box, Do you understand now? Paradigm would have made a much LESSER quality speaker if it was any bigger or smaller then what they have.

-Joey

evln
02-04-2004, 08:11 PM
To my understanding the V2 uses two 8" woofers and the V3 uses three 7" woofers. All speaker drivers will act and perform differently in different enclosures. Some will need big ones some will need smaller ones, that's how it's made. The two 8" woofers probably had a higher VAS then these 7" woofers. The 8"ers needed a bigger box to be tuned to the frequency that Paradigm wanted, now these three 7" woofers definently had different specs then the 8". The 7" obviously needed a smaller box to get to the frequency they wanted to get to. Also, the addition of another woofer in the V3 also made it more efficient. If they were to put the V3 drivers in the same box of the V2, the woofers would bottom out at a lower volume and hence the V3 was made in a smaller box, Do you understand now? Paradigm would have made a much LESSER quality speaker if it was any bigger or smaller then what they have.

-Joey

I think you are talking about Studio 100; what tell me about 20, 40 and 60 that had 6,5' speakers and were replaced by 7' in v3?

They would need a larger cabinet and therefore more weight, is it correct or no?

Carlos from Brazil
www.akronaudiotec.com.br