Bi-Amping/Bi-Wiring advice

[aeh10]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

[Mark_IDT]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.

[audio amateur]

I'll allow myself to correct/add a few things. Bi/tri/quad amping is one of the most beneficial things you can do to your set-up. At least, in the 2 channel world. Not only does it relieve your amplifiers from having to amplify the entire frequency range, but you won't have the trouble of finding out that you melted your crossover when pushing your speakers, and thus frying the tweeter somewhere along the way. It allows for a much more precise and quality seperation of the frequencies between the different drivers, which themselves will ultimalty feel happier and sound better.
True, bi wiring won't do you a whole lot of good, if you think of the logisitics of it.
I would think quite unecessary for you to bi amp your speakers, considering they are for home theater purpose.

[aeh10]

So i have gathered that bi wiring is something I can pass up on. However what is the recommended second amp used with my AVR 2807. Any recommendations. Again thanks for the help.

[spminor]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do. I enjoy what I hear and I'm not complaining. I'm doing this with a Rotel RSX 1056 and a pair of B&W 603 S3. For your second amp use, I would use them as zone 2 speakers in a seperate room or later on buy another pair of fronts just for stereo use.

[Dusty Chalk]

Probably another Denon. Does the 2807 have pre-outs?

[aeh10]

Dusty
here is the pic of the back I think it does.http://usa.denon.com/avr2807_large_back_rdax_1200x462.jpg

[Mark_IDT]

Ya bi-amping is generally used in pro sound where there running close to or above 120db and pushing the speakers to near xmax. My 100's hit a respectible 104 db in a room much too small for them when being run to their max. If you still feel the need to try this you would need at least another 7 ch power amp or 7 monoblocks. Then like audio amatuer said active crossovers to seperate the lows from the mid/highs so the amps aren't running full range. I don't know how you would run crossovers on reciver you can't place them in between the preamp and amp section sence it's all inside. At best you could run from the preouts on the reciever to crossovers then into a second set of amps which could run just the lows. The reciever would still be fullrange however to the mid/highs. Also you wouldn't have seperation of volume control either even if the power amp/s have gain control they will only play as loud as the reciever is playing. I've never seen a reciever that had seperate volume control to the preouts. The real way to bi-amp speakers is with all seperates, pre-amp to crossovers to two sets of amps a very costly endeavor.

[Mark_IDT]

ya theres a pre out section there towards the left side. Though it looks as if you could bi-amp the mains if you can run both A and B main outs simotaneusly. Though it won't be any different sounding no seperation of signal or volume control.

[aeh10]

Mark I must say this is a relatively new endeavor for me and I am just gonna let my system ride out I really got this receiver for 1080p passthrough, and I really dont feel like shelling out anymore money than I have to. For my ears it sounds great, picture upscaling is awesome and imaging from my speakers is awesome I am just gonna sit tight a little bit and if I feel the need for both processes to just see the difference then I will.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, if you like the sound, don't biamp. We're definitely getting into the point of diminishing returns.

[Mark_IDT]

Trust me I know exactly what you're going through. You got these 2 sets of binding posts on each speaker and just cause their there you want to use them. I went through it as well and the response I kept getting was it's not worth it. I actually went and got a 2 ch power amp with gain thinking I could use it on just the mains woofers to have louder bass. When I hooked it up I was quite dissapointed to find that it wouldn't play louder than the reciver even though it had gain. Only after I sold my center and satelites and went 2ch that I figured out that I could use my reciever as a 4ch stereo amp. If you want to play around with bi-amping and get a taste of it take 2 of your satelite channels and hook them up to the woofer posts on your fronts. Then go into the reciever and turn thoese 2 channels up and leave the rest alone. Then listen to some music on 7ch stereo and see hows its different. Though with having a sub I doubt you'll notice it. The reason I did this was to get more bass volume cause I don't have a sub. When I do get one which should be very soon I'll go back to full range. It's definately a poor mans bi-amping but it's fun to play around with just as it's fun to try different speaker placements other equipment and such.

[BillyB]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

I am not the most knowledgable audiophile here but my speakers are bi-wired and this is the reason.I have an audio dealer whom I trust who I defer to for technical advice like whether or not to bi-wire speakers.His take on this subject is that while it's preferable you do not have to bi-amp to recieve the benefits of bi-wiring.The biggest factor is the individual speaker design.He said that many speakers simply don't sound noticably better when bi-wired and it's mostly relative to the crossover design.He said Audiodyne(who makes a fine speaker) did away with dual connections for bi-wiring as their first-order crossover design didn't significantly benefit from this feature.On the other hand some speakers do sound noticably better when bi-wired making the extra expense worthwhile.I upgraded my speaker wire to Tara cable solid core 4 conductor bi-wire with the hope of improving the sound of my B&W 703's and quite frankly didn't feel it made much difference.That being said I was extremely unhappy with them anyway so it wasn't very realistic to expect much from this changeThe speakers I traded the 703's in for are the Quad 22L's and Quad does recommend bi-wiring them so I'm hoping my original expense will show itself more with the 22L's.It's not a total loss when bi-wire speaker cable is purchased and the bi-wiring sound upgrade isn't significant.At least the conductors can be twisted together doubling the wire gauge thereby lowering the resistence of the speaker cable.Good luck with your decision as I think it's very specific to your speaker choice.

[FLZapped]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do.

HAHAAHAHAHHA! You're crossover is going to do what it was designed to regardless. You're sales rep is just blowing smoke up your rear so he can make a sale.

-Bruce

[hermanv]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.

Every time I have tried good quality speakers wired direct and wired with bi-wire, the bi-wire setup sounded better to me. Use your ears, most stores will lend you a set. If it does nothing, bring them back.

[FLZapped]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.


Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce
Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

[Woochifer]

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

Speaker companies do put the dual terminals on their products even though in interviews, the designers for some manufacturers will acknowledge that they do so due to demand rather than any findings on their part of any improvements. Klipsch is one example. If a significant cross-section of the audiophile community believes in bi-wiring, then the speaker companies risk losing sales by not going with the dual binding posts. The audio industry is a business, and any good business plan entails making decisions based on satisfying demand for the intended market. As far as I'm aware of, Dunlavy, McIntosh, and Dynaudio have also discounted the importance of biwiring. I don't recall if any of them went to dual binding posts in order to appease potential buyers. Dunlavy and McIntosh reps used to pretend to switch out the speaker cables during demo sessions, and let listeners fawn all over themselves over how much of an "improvement" they heard before informing them that in fact nothing changed between listenings.

[BillyB]

Speaker companies do put the dual terminals on their products even though in interviews, the designers for some manufacturers will acknowledge that they do so due to demand rather than any findings on their part of any improvements. Klipsch is one example. If a significant cross-section of the audiophile community believes in bi-wiring, then the speaker companies risk losing sales by not going with the dual binding posts. The audio industry is a business, and any good business plan entails making decisions based on satisfying demand for the intended market. As far as I'm aware of, Dunlavy, McIntosh, and Dynaudio have also discounted the importance of biwiring. I don't recall if any of them went to dual binding posts in order to appease potential buyers. Dunlavy and McIntosh reps used to pretend to switch out the speaker cables during demo sessions, and let listeners fawn all over themselves over how much of an "improvement" they heard before informing them that in fact nothing changed between listenings.

I understand your point.I am under the impression that a speakers crossover design is the main factor in whether or not bi-wiring that specific speaker will make a significant sonic improvement.I don't know enough about this subject as to the science behind it to be able to say I know this to be fact.This seems like one of those subjects that is ripe for different opinions but I would think there must be a somewhat definitive answer to this question based on actual science not opinion and would love to hear from someone trained or involved in speaker design and/or building.If I'm wrong then this is just another one of those subjective audiophile subjects that never really ends with anyone proving their opinion based on fact.The ears don't lie so maybe I will learn something when auditioning my own Quads.If I don't hear a difference I will have no problem with that as the Bi-wire wasn't that ridiculously expensive and I won't consider it a major defeat.I would imagine at that point I would just twist the speaker leads together and enjoy the benefits of a heavier gauge wire.I paid a fee to have the amp end of the cable pre-finished with spades but the speaker ends are just stripped back as I use the binding post not the Banana plug style of connection.

[Mark_IDT]

It can be proven that a crossover will do nothing differently when bi-wired. Your making a bridge in the circuit when you connect the two sets with the bridges provided or twist the two sets of wires together at the back of the amp outs. Thoese dual binging post are really for bi-amping.

[FLZapped]

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.


Because the marketing department runs things, not engineering.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

I understand your point.I am under the impression that a speakers crossover design is the main factor in whether or not bi-wiring that specific speaker will make a significant sonic improvement.I don't know enough about this subject as to the science behind it to be able to say I know this to be fact.

It is a crap shoot, there are around 6 variables you have to account for.



This seems like one of those subjects that is ripe for different opinions but I would think there must be a somewhat definitive answer to this question based on actual science not opinion and would love to hear from someone trained or involved in speaker design and/or building.If I'm wrong then this is just another one of those subjective audiophile subjects that never really ends with anyone proving their opinion based on fact.

the facts are out there, if you search for them, but it is indeed one of those hormone driven topics.



The ears don't lie

Well.....maybe you should check these sites out:

http://www.kyushu-id.ac.jp/~ynhome/ENG/Demo/illusions2nd.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/contributions/flinn/Illusions/TT/tt.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/contributions/flinn/Illusions/ST/st.html

the last two require JAVA to run.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

I'm not looking to spend any more time debating this subject but I just thought this might be of interest.Upon opening my Quad 22L's the first thing I did was read the owners manual in regard to bi-wiring their speakers.Be patient as I will simply repeat word for word what they said."Most of the audio signal going to the speakers drives the bass units.Where one cable feeds both bass and treble units,this heavy bass current can modulate the high frequencies.Using separate cables for treble and bass units reduces intermodulation effects and improves headroom and clarity.Where feasible, we strongly advocate bi-wiring."They have a separate paragraph for bi-amping in addition to this which simply states that bi-amping will extend the advantages of bi-wiring even further.Anyway I'm not looking to extend this debate but I have heard crazier things than this slant on bi-wiring.You would think there would be a steadier flow of power to the tweeters with bi-wiring even with one amp.Their opinion seems to be based on current flow modulation which could seemingly effect sound.The speakers are gorgeous in Birds-eye Maple and the oh so important sound test is next.

[bigfanga]

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of your new Quads, BB. I've had mine for a week and a half now and I absolutely love them.

[FLZapped]

"Most of the audio signal going to the speakers drives the bass units.Where one cable feeds both bass and treble units,this heavy bass current can modulate the high frequencies.

Interesting that they forget all this current is being generated by your amplifier, so why wouldn't it suffer from such "modulation," afterall, all the current that flows through your wires also flows through the output stage of your amplifier. So this is simply an untrue statement, besides the fact that the crossover is there to seperate these signal paths to prevent just such an occurance.



Using separate cables for treble and bass units reduces intermodulation effects and improves headroom and clarity..

Intermodulation distortion does not exist in wire. Intermodulation distortion is a product of non-linearities in your amplifier. Same thing with headroom and clarity, wire is passive, to make such improvements it would have to become an active component.

Sorry, but that paragraph was nothing more than marketing-speak.

To properly bi-amp a speaker system, you should be able to ENTIRELY bypass the internal passive crossover as it will get replaced with an active one driving two seperate amplifiers. Leaving the passive crossovers in place greatly diminishes the purpose of bi-amping.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of your new Quads, BB. I've had mine for a week and a half now and I absolutely love them.
Even though it's been torture I have held off on connecting them as I'm waiting for some high quality banana plugs I ordered on-line to connect the new Quads.I thought it would make for a nice professional looking installation(especially bi-wired) even though I honestly don't know if there are any pros or cons sound wise to this style of connection.They're the locking style which I think makes some sense as to the integrity of the connection.I'm sure based on my experiences here there will be plenty of people who will say this is also a complete waste of money but that's OK.I'm thrilled to hear you love your 22L's so far.I believe these speakers have a significant burn-in time so it should only get better.I'm also torn on the spike set-up for mine.I have hardwood floors and they give you these nice spike feet to protect the floor.I'm just not sure if I like the look of the speaker so far off the floor.They did think of everything as the speaker base also has nice self-stick black pads on them making the spikes unnecessary.I think I may cut about a 1/2" off the spikes to slightly lower the speakers and then retain the ability to make up for any floor uneveness with the threaded spike set-up.These are truly beautiful looking speakers as I love their compact footprint and overall dimensions.What finish did you go with?Continue to enjoy them and I will certainly post after giving them a demo.

[bigfanga]

Mine are birdseye maple also.The finish is absolutely stunning and makes the speakers look much more expensive than they really are.

I got mine used and the prev. owner said that they were just barely broken in so they sounded great right out of the box. I got them because I wanted a silk dome tweeter in my rather live, acoustically speaking, room. After a week of experimentig with positioning and calibration, I have finally gotten them set up right.

This may interest you, I also wanted a nice professional set of bi-wires so I ordered a set of AQ GBC bi-wires from HCM Audio. I don't know if they improve the sound or not, but they do make for a nice set of wires and they were a nice bargain to boot.

Enjoy.

[chaos24]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.
i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

[chaos24]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.
i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

[FLZapped]

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....

But the amp is STILL doing all the work. Having one, two, or 20 wires, won't change that. The purpose of the crossover is to seperate the signals, the wire is just a carrier. Unless you're using 24 AWG wire or something else as equally silly, you aren't going to run into any problems running out of electrons to carry the signal. There is no "interference" within the wire.

-Bruce
(didn't I just say this?)

[canuckle]

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

That's nice that it works out well for all the little engineers wandering around in your head. The reality of this universe; however, is that bi-wiring doesn't separate anything. You can divide the signal over 50 seperate wires but if they're all still connected at the ends, then their ability to transmit the signal remains the same.

[Mark_IDT]

Ok I think an episode of Mythbusters that deals solely on audio myths needs to be produced. If they could even cover half of the snake oil manufacturers are pushing these days it would be golden. I'm starting a new thread right now for us all to submit topics then we can Email them the link.

[BillyB]

Mine are birdseye maple also.The finish is absolutely stunning and makes the speakers look much more expensive than they really are.

I got mine used and the prev. owner said that they were just barely broken in so they sounded great right out of the box. I got them because I wanted a silk dome tweeter in my rather live, acoustically speaking, room. After a week of experimentig with positioning and calibration, I have finally gotten them set up right.

This may interest you, I also wanted a nice professional set of bi-wires so I ordered a set of AQ GBC bi-wires from HCM Audio. I don't know if they improve the sound or not, but they do make for a nice set of wires and they were a nice bargain to boot.

Enjoy.

I was refering to the banana plug style connectors only.I already had Tara Lab Prism bi-wire speaker cables but wanted to add the connectors as a nice installation touch.My 22L's are now hooked up and I'm definitely going through growing pains with them as the sound leaves much to be desired in my room.I did purchase them new so I realize burn-in time will be required to make a final decision on whether or not I like them.I'm just curious how far off the back wall you have your speakers placed.I've heard these speakers can be extremely placement sensitive and haven't really moved mine around that much yet.If placement is my problem I may be sunk because I am limited in this dept as my listening room is also the family den and I can't exactly have these speakers out in the middle of the room and expect them to survive my children(also don't know if I have the patience to slide them way into the room for each listening session only to have to put them back where they were for safe keeping.)I have excellent components and will truly be shocked if things don't sweeten up soon as I had very high hopes for these speakers based on a demo at a friends and the rave reviews these speakers were getting especially at their price point.Something doesn't seem quite right and I have an awful feeling it's more critical than the speakers simply burning in can fix.Of course I wan't to be very wrong.

[bigfanga]

Don't know if this'll help but here goes:

1. I found that mine needed to be toed in a little more than I expected for them to sound right. Try this first.

2. I've read various reviews that state that the 22's need anywhere from 100 to 200 hrs of burn in. Claims are that the kevlar drivers are the reason but it seems to me that if any part of a speaker requires break-in, it would be the surrounds. Seems logical that the rubber (or whatever elastic material) would need to loosen up a bit.

3. I measured my 22's positioning and found that when measured from the centerline to to back wall it is 24", but again the speakers are set at a definite angle so take that into account.

I hope this helps and let me take this opportunity to urge you to take some time tweaking them. Believe me, once you get them dialed in they are spectacular.

P.S. I've listened to lots of speakers over the years and I found the 703's (and all B&W's for that matter) to be way too bright to me.

[hermanv]

...edit....
2. I've read various reviews that state that the 22's need anywhere from 100 to 200 hrs of burn in. Claims are that the kevlar drivers are the reason but it seems to me that if any part of a speaker requires break-in, it would be the surrounds. Seems logical that the rubber (or whatever elastic material) would need to loosen up a bit.
....edit....The cones in conventional drivers only act like true pistons near the lower limits of their frequency response. Above these frequencies the cones will flex to varying degrees and in varying modes. After a while this bending action makes the cones more flexible. An analogy of sorts can be heard If you crumple up a brand new dollar bill, you can hear the noise it makes. A nice old dollar bill is very soft and crumples up without a sound.

[BillyB]

Don't know if this'll help but here goes:

1. I found that mine needed to be toed in a little more than I expected for them to sound right. Try this first.

2. I've read various reviews that state that the 22's need anywhere from 100 to 200 hrs of burn in. Claims are that the kevlar drivers are the reason but it seems to me that if any part of a speaker requires break-in, it would be the surrounds. Seems logical that the rubber (or whatever elastic material) would need to loosen up a bit.

3. I measured my 22's positioning and found that when measured from the centerline to to back wall it is 24", but again the speakers are set at a definite angle so take that into account.

I hope this helps and let me take this opportunity to urge you to take some time tweaking them. Believe me, once you get them dialed in they are spectacular.

P.S. I've listened to lots of speakers over the years and I found the 703's (and all B&W's for that matter) to be way too bright to me.

Thanks for the info as I'm going to tweak the positioning as much as my room will allow for.Toeing them in is obviously easy enough to do but I'm definitely limited in spacing off the back wall to about 12" to the actual back of the cabinet unless I move them for each listening session which I guess isn't the end of the world.People tell me my room has horrendous acoustical features(14' vaulted ceiling,oak floors,2 large arches)so all I can figure is I got a little lucky with my Original Proacs as they shined in these very same conditions.I'm still glad the 703's are a thing of the past as yes bright is one word that would describe them.Enjoy

[bigfanga]

Were the ProAcs bottom ported? Maybe with your space that's what you'll need. If so, ProAcs, Spendors and Neat Acoustics should be able to work. Another speaker I would highly recommend are DeVore Fidelity Gibbon Super 8's. Go listen to them if you can find a dealer.

Of course, I wouldn't give up on the Quads just yet.

P.S. I read somewhere (Asylum?) where a Quad owner said he had problems with his until he replaced all of his silver wires & interconnects with copper. I can't vouch for this as I'm not sure if I believe it nor do I own any silver wires (too expensive and not sold on their advantages, if any).

[BillyB]

Were the ProAcs bottom ported? Maybe with your space that's what you'll need. If so, ProAcs, Spendors and Neat Acoustics should be able to work. Another speaker I would highly recommend are DeVore Fidelity Gibbon Super 8's. Go listen to them if you can find a dealer.

Of course, I wouldn't give up on the Quads just yet.

P.S. I read somewhere (Asylum?) where a Quad owner said he had problems with his until he replaced all of his silver wires & interconnects with copper. I can't vouch for this as I'm not sure if I believe it nor do I own any silver wires (too expensive and not sold on their advantages, if any).

The Proacs were (I believe MKII) 2-way stand speakers that were rear ported and yes the port was at the bottom of the cabinet.The Target stands were 18" so obviously that is relative to this issue.They were sweet and yes I was an idiot for replacing them 3 years ago.At least I gave them to my cousin so I still get to hear them occasionally.They don't sound as good in his system as my components are better than his .I just need to relax and give the Quads a chance as I'm no-where's near the point of thinking they were a mistake.My interconnects are Axiom RSC which I believe are silver but I already tried some old Monster cable interconnects ($40 range)I had laying around just for the hell of it and the Axioms were definitely superior.(as they should be at $140 a meter).Continue to enjoy yours as you're obviously into your system so If you like the 22L's to me that's another sign that these speakers are capable of good things.

[BillyB]

Don't know if this'll help but here goes:

1. I found that mine needed to be toed in a little more than I expected for them to sound right. Try this first.

2. I've read various reviews that state that the 22's need anywhere from 100 to 200 hrs of burn in. Claims are that the kevlar drivers are the reason but it seems to me that if any part of a speaker requires break-in, it would be the surrounds. Seems logical that the rubber (or whatever elastic material) would need to loosen up a bit.

3. I measured my 22's positioning and found that when measured from the centerline to to back wall it is 24", but again the speakers are set at a definite angle so take that into account.

I hope this helps and let me take this opportunity to urge you to take some time tweaking them. Believe me, once you get them dialed in they are spectacular.

P.S. I've listened to lots of speakers over the years and I found the 703's (and all B&W's for that matter) to be way too bright to me.
:idea:

Just a quick question about my 22L speaker placement.The back wall in my listening room has a 7' arch right in the center of the wall which is about 19' long.Right now due to a curio cabinet one of the speakers is positioned right next to the opening of the arch but the other is about 3' away from the opening.I would think this would be terrible for imaging as my listening sweet spot is directly across from the center of the arch opening.I've been noticing that the right speaker which is the one that's off center sounds much less involved in the sound as if the channels are out of balance.I should have picked up on this sooner as my cousin reminded me my Proacs were set up this way originally as they fit better there.Does this sound to you like the kind of change that could make a significant difference in acoustics with the Quads.Even though I have to get this one past my wife I'd do it for improved sound and I think the speakers would actually look real slick skirting the arch.

[bigfanga]

I'd say it definitely can't hurt. It certainly makes sense that you would want both speakers to have identical, or nearabouts, rear wall reinforcement.

[BillyB]

[QUOTE=bigfanga]I'd say it definitely can't hurt. It certainly makes sense that you would want both speakers to have identical, or nearabouts, rear wall reinforcement.[/QUOTE

I'm moving that right speaker today as it does seem logical to at least create as close to identical conditions for each speaker.I do remember when my Proacs were set-up if you sat in the center of them the sound seemed to be coming from the center of the arch as opposed to the individual speakers.The vocals were as if the person was sitting directly in the center of the arch and I presume that would be considered good imaging as I enjoyed that sound very much.I'm far from an expert so I don't know if the speakers skirting the arch is an acoustical drawback or if it might create imaging I can't otherwise get by bringing the speakers further off the wall due to room conditions.I know some very experienced audiophile swear by the importance of speaker placement saying it can be as important as system quality in the whole scheme of things.I'll check back after this change and I'm just curious if you're still as thrilled with your 22L's as when you originally posted.I listen to a lot of pop and rock and I hear some people say these speakers aren't that well suited for this.I'm not really buying into that theory too hard because I think a well designed speaker can handle all types of music reasonably well without sounding rough on the ears, and before anybody jumps all over this I am aware that certain speakers are better suited for Jazz,Rock,etc.I'm only saying a good speaker won't be excruciating just because you're not playing to it's strengths.

[bigfanga]

I'm still extremely happy with mine. They handle everything I throw at them amazingly well. I must admit that I haven't tried any classical, but that's not really my thing anyway.

My setup puts vocals at the precise midpoint between the two speakers. As a matter of fact, I find myself checking frequently that I have my receiver set to "stereo" as it sounds as if my center channel speaker is working. It took me about a week of monkeying with the spacing & toe-in (not to mention calibration) on mine to get them to sound like this.

Again, I wish you luck in your endeavors, but it sounds as if your room conditions are the culprit in your sound quality issues. Take comfort, if you will, in knowing that this is the case in most setups.

[BillyB]

I'm still extremely happy with mine. They handle everything I throw at them amazingly well. I must admit that I haven't tried any classical, but that's not really my thing anyway.

My setup puts vocals at the precise midpoint between the two speakers. As a matter of fact, I find myself checking frequently that I have my receiver set to "stereo" as it sounds as if my center channel speaker is working. It took me about a week of monkeying with the spacing & toe-in (not to mention calibration) on mine to get them to sound like this.

Again, I wish you luck in your endeavors, but it sounds as if your room conditions are the culprit in your sound quality issues. Take comfort, if you will, in knowing that this is the case in most setups.

Major improvement with the speakers equally spaced off the edge of each arch.The speaker which was offset now seems equally involved in the overall sound presentation which in itself is a big step in the right direction.They do look sweet set up this way and while that's far less important than sound it doesn't hurt any.I'm going to run them in and hope for the best.Glad you're enjoying yours and I appreciate your feedback.

[aeh10]

This bi-amp/bi-wire thread has turned into a pretty hot thread! huh? Although speaker types have surfaced. So to conclude bi-wiring does nothing except split the signal. Thanks to all for your help in showing me the way.

[Dusty Chalk]

So to conclude bi-wiring does nothing except split the signal. Actually, it doesn't even do that. If one were to diagram out a circuit for biwiring, and for single wiring, they'd be the same.

[hermanv]

Actually, it doesn't even do that. If one were to diagram out a circuit for biwiring, and for single wiring, they'd be the same.Only if the resistance, capacitance and inductance of the wire were exactly zero. Since it is not, bi-wiring and single wiring are in fact different. If you draw in the admittedly small resistance in that diagram you begin to see why it might help to bi-wire.

Some speakers I have listened to sound considrerably better bi-wired, with others I have heard no difference at all. I have never heard a speaker sound worse when bi-wired.

To anyone who asks I always reply; try it and listen for yourself.

[Dusty Chalk]

Only if the resistance, capacitance and inductance of the wire were exactly zero. Since it is not, bi-wiring and single wiring are in fact different. If you draw in the admittedly small resistance in that diagram you begin to see why it might help to bi-wire.Yes, but most people most of the time don't diagram the resistance, capacitance, and inductance of the wires.

Agreed: it will not sound worse.

[hermanv]

One of the problems with discovering why some amplifiers or some cables for example might sound different or better than other cables or amplifiers is a circuit diagram.

A schematic is an abstract representation that shows the interconnections between parts. Sometimes people start to believe it shows how the circuit works, in a way it does, but an amazing amount of information that determines tiny differences between one circuit and another is missing.

Most secondary effects such as the difference between a ceramic and a film capacitor are not shown on a circuit diagram, the miller effect is missing, intercircuit coupling through magnetic interaction or tiny capacitors between various circuit elements are always missing. Some of these effects have a disproportionate effect on the final circuit behavior. Maybe a good example is a star ground. Star grounds are usually very effective, yet the schematic rarely shows them.

The point I'm trying for is that this electronic reproduction of music is not at all simple, much of the end result is governed by secondary or tertiary effects. There is a tendency to over simplify. The number of posts that say wire is wire for example, when even the poster knows that gauge, capacitance and inductance vary in different wires and effect the signal in different ways.

[BackinHi_Fi]

If I might add my two cents as most of you, I have pondered on the bi-wiring/amping issue. Bi wiring I would think that varies the actual connection from series to parallel, therefore changing the resistance and/or current flow depending on the choice. I would think will vary the way in which the speaker works the amp. Also some other variants that can be added to the mix would be combining different types of cable on such a configuration, as high and low frequencies tend to travel differently, IE using semi solids or thicker strands for lows than highs. Also logic will dictate that a crossover network designed with this capability would benefit from dedicated source as it would handle the main signal in different ways. Both frequency spectrum's as we know place different load demands on the amplifier therefore by engaging the circuit from two different points it will allow the amplifier to be used with greater efficiency thus also improving the performance of the speaker. You don't have to go super esoteric to understand this concept car audio utilizes the same principle quite often with noticeable results why would it be so far fetched in home audio? Then again not trying to be the devil's advocate but with audio there are a few absolutes as there are infinite variables and at the end for each particular individual the measure of performance lays part in theory, part in actual equipment and sometimes even part physiological. Sorry if I got long winded this was more like fifty cents.:yikes:

[hermanv]

Since drivers and crossover networks are inherently complex impedances, it is possible that using bi-wiring affects the way the amplifier feedback loop works. After all these complex impedances are tied to the point from where feedback to the earlier stages is usually connected.

Like I said earlier, I have certainly heard systems where bi-wiring appears to do nothing and I've heard others where increased clarity or resolution was the result. Often bass performance is improved but that may be because more of the wire gauge is now available for bass exclusively. When I bi-wire I usually use a larger pair for bass and a smaller for treble, last time on my Martin Logan's, I used copper for the woofer and silver for the mid/treble.

My opinion on these things is always the same, listen for yourself. You have little to loose and perhaps something to gain.

[BackinHi_Fi]

My opinion on these things is always the same, listen for yourself. You have little to loose and perhaps something to gain.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% not everything works for everyone and every person is a world. That is why since I was very young and my friends knowing me as an Audio enthusiast asked me what was the best equipment I always answered the one that fits your needs, taste and budget.

[pdhanwada]

My setup

B&K ref 30 Preamp
B&K 7270 200X7 Multichannel amp
Paradigm Sig S-4 Fronts
Paradigm C3 Center
Monitor 5 Rears.

I have a 7 channel amp but will be using 5.1 setup. Can I Bi amp the Paradigm SIgnature S-4 with the remaining two channels. Has anybody done bi amping with the B&K amps.

ANother questions is how do I bi amp. I have one set of Preamp inputs to the amps. WHere do I get the Y connectors so that I can split the preamp connections.


Thanks

[superpanavision70mm]

I contacted PSB one time regarding bi-wiring and the analysis they gave me is that it pretty much won't make a difference, but bi-amping would certainly improve in drastic ways, but usually it's hard to notice the biggest difference because it's an internal deal. In other words, it's hard to notice that your amps are not overloaded or working harder, which bi-amping helps alleviate and while the sound might not be totally different or better than what you expected it certainly helps in the long run with your amps.

[mbalari]

Hi, please, the Denon 2807 suport RDS?
Thanks