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tin ear
07-28-2006, 04:27 PM
... and I haven't even started seriously looking yet!

Looking for new front speakers that can stand alone in stereo mode. I want speakers that can stand on their own, whether hooked to a mono, stereo, 2.1, or on up amp. I don't mind using a sub, I just don't want to have to.

I've lurked here enough to know I need to provide some data, so here goes:

Music: Mostly vintage rock. 50s - mid 80s or so.

Listening room: 16' x 24', system arranged along long axis. Carpet, plush furniture. Wood walls, but with lots of windows (shades, curtains). Acoustic ceiling? (paper tiles)

Budget: $500 - 600 US, but could stretch that a little if absolutely necessary.

I like the tight bass of sealed enclosures. I imagine some modern ported boxes can achieve this, but I've not seen this in any of the specs I have looked at. (Again, I've just gotten started - probably haven't looked at 1% of what's there.) Looks like a lot of them roll off at around 50 Hz or so.

I guess they should be, what, at least bright if not brilliant? I find I always turn up the mid & treb controls.

I'd appreciate it if someone could point me at a few possibilities. There are too many speakers to sift through. :confused:

TIA
-Jon

One other thing: They can't look like frat guy speakers. SWMBO would not be amused. :eek6:

audio_dude
07-28-2006, 05:17 PM
hmm...tough one

Dusty Chalk
07-28-2006, 05:26 PM
What are "frat guy" speakers? Huge monstrosities? Ancient looking speakers? Whut?

And: hmm...tough set of criteria.

The two particularly vexing are "...sealed enclosure..." and "...don't need a sub...". Now, admittedly, a lot of "classic rock" (sorry) doesn't have much deep bass, but every once in a while, it does. So you're going to want something at least down to 40 or 50 Hz or so.

Here's a thought (and I'm thinking out loud, which I liken to masticating in public, so apologies in advance): start with a pair of sealed speakers, and see how well they do. If not, add a sub later.

In terms of tight bass, it is my understanding (someone else weigh in here if I'm wrong) that in general, designs go in the following order, from tightest to...uh...least tight:

Sealed
Transmission line
Reflex
Passive Radiator

I don't know where open baffle falls in.

But what I'm saying is, you may want to look at transmission line designs as well (PMC, etc. -- although PMC is out of your price range).

In terms of bass reflex, try to make sure the port is on the front (first choice) or bottom (second choice). Bass ports on the back tend to sound boomy because they reflect off the back wall, so have a delay. But that can be okay in certain rooms. Yours sounds nice and big, but I hope your measurements are a little bit off, because 24 == 16 * 3/2 which sucks is inferior because you don't want dimensions to be even multiples of each other, or even multiples of some other dimension. And most rooms are 8' high, so they're both even multiples of the height. You're definitely going to need some room treatments if that's the case. Pulling the speakers out into the room away from the walls will also help, but make them non-integral fractions of the room (like hitting a guitar string at the halfway mark or the 1/4 or 1/5 or 1/6 mark to get harmonics -- don't do that).

That said, I have no specific suggestions, let me think about it some more.

tin ear
07-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Dusty Chalk said:

A lot! Wow; especially about the room.

Yeah, frat guy speakers are monstrosities that are either not fully grilled or have nearly transparent grilles, and generally huge.

In reading your post, I'm pretty sure what I'm looking for is acoustic suspension (sealed). In terms of bass, think something like EL&P, Pink Floyd; that sort of thing (no other examples come to mind at the moment). Bass that will hurt you if you're not careful. Muddy or boomy bass won't do.

Room geometry? I get to do math? I love it! :D Not exactly 16x24 - there is a 5x6 oe so chunk out of one corner (closet).

Thanks!

tin ear
07-28-2006, 06:00 PM
Sealed
Transmission line
Reflex
Passive Radiator

Not familiar with that term. Is that electret (sp?)? The flat panels? I heard them once - blew me away! Out of my price range then; no doubt still are now.

2chAlex
07-28-2006, 07:04 PM
gonna mentioned Polk RTi8's (should be in the $600+ area), cause they should be easy to find in your area. They're a tower with real wood (black oak or cherry) to help with the acceptence factor. Should have plenty of low end without a sub and if I remember right Polk went back to a silk dome tweeter. Whatever you do once you narrow it down, grab some cds/dvds ya know well and let your ears tell ya the ones for you. Just looked to see if you had a Phase Technology dealer in Austin, and you do. So I have to suggest those as a owner, Made in house in Florida with a great warranty.

Dusty Chalk
07-28-2006, 11:28 PM
Not familiar with that term. Is that electret (sp?)? The flat panels? I heard them once - blew me away! Out of my price range then; no doubt still are now.No, transmission line are just another way of loading the drivers. It's a really nice load on the driver. It's basically a long pipe, but for some reason (beyond the scope of what I am able to explain in ASCII), it does not work the same as bass reflex. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line#Acoustic_transmission_lines)'s the Wiki.

Oh, and the corner? Very good.

So, these (http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/jbl_k2_s9800.htm) are frat boy speakers? Too bad, I've heard good things about them. (Also, they're >> US$600.)

Actually, there are very few acoustic suspension/sealed speakers, so start there. I know there are others, but the Spendor S3/5 is the only one I'm aware of, offhand (and it is nice, but does not go loud well). It's more for nearfield listening. Not that there's anything wrong with that. And it's bass is to...do without. Definitely needs a sub.

audio_dude
07-29-2006, 07:06 AM
no, this (http://www.cerwin-vega.com/products/homeaudiovideo/index.html) is a "Frat guy" speaker!!!

hey, if you're into the whole flat panel speaker thing, look into the magnepan MMG, around $500!

PlumDragon
07-29-2006, 07:51 AM
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=68&sId=4

These speakers get GREAT reviews and many people say they compete with speakers twice their price. $599 a pair, its perfect for you.

JohnMichael
07-29-2006, 10:23 AM
A nice small speaker with good bass and is a sealed box is the NHT SB3. The bass is rated to 40hz. List price is $600. a pair. www.nhthifi.com

http://www.nhthifi.com/p-ht-superaudio.html

tin ear
07-29-2006, 04:52 PM
What does anyone think about Infinity Primus 360 for $400 a pair?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-E4tDrTfR6Y4/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=12000&I=700P360

Any reviews I've seen on these are glowing.

edit: Maybe add some 150s or 160s for surrounds later?

If Infinities have a characteristic sound, what would that be?

2chAlex
07-29-2006, 09:21 PM
I didn't mention online because you kinda got to know that's what you want cause for the most part, once you buy their yours unless defective. Some speaker builders who sell direct do offer a period of time to listen and return if not to your taste. Just a heads up. There are good deals to be found online though. Guess the best thing is check to see if they are authorized.

tin ear
07-30-2006, 05:12 AM
Alex, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any place around here where you can walk in and listen to a variety of speakers.

Kinda looks like you buy what Best Buy or Circuit City has or go online. (Oh and a couple hifi shops aimed at the wealthy.)

So I'm doing a lot of searching online -- at places I've dealt with befroe and I trust. Speakers that are highly rated by a large sample size of people seem like a pretty safe bet. At least I can be pretty sure I won't totally hate them like I do my present speakers.

-Jon

BTW, found 2 dealers nearby who sell the PhaseTechs. :) Unfortunately they are the type of places that don't just sell gear. No, they want to, through consultations with me and my architect, design an [sic] harmonious acoustic environment which will enlighten my soul and fully integrate with my lifestyle... etc. :( That's Austin for you.
OTOH, if they have showrooms, I may go slouch on their furniture, plunk my feet on their coffee table, and give a listen. :D

tin ear
07-30-2006, 06:29 AM
Thanks, all. Lots of great suggestions! Burning up the net looking at them all.
-Jon

tin ear
07-30-2006, 06:47 AM
http://www.psbspeakers.com/product.php?pId=68&sId=4

These speakers get GREAT reviews and many people say they compete with speakers twice their price. $599 a pair, its perfect for you.

Found a place in town that sells those. I think I've been there, maybe 15 years ago. I think that's where I heard the flat panels too. Thanks! I'd forgotten about that that place. Wish they had a decent website tho... Got this 'country boy' thing going & don't get to town much...

bobsticks
07-30-2006, 07:54 AM
Hey tin ear,
You may want to take the time to get into town. I have a friend who snagged a pair of these and is quite happy with them. Given your budget and criteria I think you'd missing out if you didn't follow up...
Happy hunting

tin ear
07-30-2006, 08:02 AM
Hey tin ear,
You may want to take the time to get into town.
I'll do it! Thanks.
The place is real easy it get to & I remember the merchant wasn't the least bit 'snooty'. :)

Not snooty but he'll sell you whatever you can afford, I guess:
6. Nordost Blue Heaven speaker wire($499/10' pair): Superb cable, should improve nearly any system by
a substantial amount. Matched by equally nifty Blue Heaven interconnect ($199/1 meter pair.) :eek6:

2chAlex
07-30-2006, 08:47 AM
Too bad about the local birck and motar stores. One of the places you might way to check out is www.onecall.com, They carry the likes of Boston Acoustics, Kef, Phase Tech etc. Saw a close out on Boston CR95 towers not sure how much shipping would be but they're at 149.99 each They ship Fed Ex which I see as a plus.

tin ear
07-30-2006, 10:45 AM
Too bad about the local birck and motar stores.

Hmm... What I found was this:
www.encompass-austin.com (http://www.encompass-austin.com/)
and this:
www.austinavsolutions.com (http://www.austinavsolutions.com/)

Thanks
-Jon

tin ear
07-30-2006, 11:52 AM
Thanks to everyone's help on this thread, I have found a dealer I want to visit, who appears to sell a lot of the speakers mentioned here.
http://www.audiosystems.com

I can already see my budget going to hell, though. I see that if I err.. ahem.. <ahem></ahem> double my budget I could walk out of there & fling a pair of Magnepan MG12s in the back of the truck. :ihih:

The best solution for a grand? I don't know. I do know they'll laugh these ~$200 / pair, 20-year-old KLHs right out of the house, though.

:16:

Thanks, all; I'm back!

Woochifer
07-30-2006, 02:26 PM
I'll do it! Thanks.
The place is real easy it get to & I remember the merchant wasn't the least bit 'snooty'. :)

Not snooty but he'll sell you whatever you can afford, I guess:
6. Nordost Blue Heaven speaker wire($499/10' pair): Superb cable, should improve nearly any system by
a substantial amount. Matched by equally nifty Blue Heaven interconnect ($199/1 meter pair.) :eek6:

Yeah, sounds like a real winning strategy that this non-snooty store is suggesting -- spend $500 on speaker cables, and leave $100 of budget for the speakers themselves! :idea: And some audiophiles wonder why the audio industry is in such a state of decline.

As for your original inquiry, the majority of speakers nowadays are ported speakers. Over the last 20 or so years, the quality of ported speakers has become a lot more consistent and as such, they dominate the market right now. Not a whole lot of sealed acoustic suspension speakers out there right now. Even well-known purveyors of the acoustic suspension design such as AR, KLH, Advent, and Boston Acoustics switched over to ported designs a long time ago. NHT makes some good acoustc suspension speakers, and you'll find a lot of subwoofer manufacturers that use sealed designs.

I would not choose the speakers based strictly on the design. Even speakers built to a comparable box design could be voiced very differently. I think the first thing you need to figure out is the type of sound you're looking for. If you note some parallels between the sound you want and the design philosophy, then you can narrow down your list. But, the first thing to do is get out there and so some listening. Don't rely on reviews and recommendations alone, since everyone's got their own biases and those might not correspond with what you're looking for. The only opinion that's worth anything to you is yours.

2chAlex
07-30-2006, 03:16 PM
audiosystem looks promising, PSB are definately worth a listen IMO. You and your wallet have fun and let us know the outcome

tin ear
07-30-2006, 03:52 PM
audiosystem looks promising, PSB are definately worth a listen IMO. You and your wallet have fun and let us know the outcome

I will, thanks. They're closed on Sunday or I'd been there today.:D

Woochifer:

As for your original inquiry, the majority of speakers nowadays are ported speakers. Over the last 20 or so years, the quality of ported speakers has become a lot more consistent and as such, they dominate the market right now.

Was that motivated by the listener or by the industry? I wonder... If a speaker won't faithfully (or reasonably anyhow) reproduce the full range of human hearing, then you need to buy more speakers to fill in the gaps, right?


I would not choose the speakers based strictly on the design. Even speakers built to a comparable box design could be voiced very differently. I think the first thing you need to figure out is the type of sound you're looking for. If you note some parallels between the sound you want and the design philosophy, then you can narrow down your list. But, the first thing to do is get out there and so some listening

No doubt, you're right. I now have a pretty good collection of possibles to go listen to, based on this thread. :) My guess is I end up with something mentioned here, or nearly so, but we'll see. I actually believe I'll be floored by what's out there now, not having shopped for speakers in 20 years or so.

Again, thanks all!
-Jon

audio_dude
07-31-2006, 04:44 AM
Paradigm mini-monitors

great little speakers, extension down to 40htz, i've heard them, its true!

Woochifer
07-31-2006, 08:06 AM
Was that motivated by the listener or by the industry? I wonder... If a speaker won't faithfully (or reasonably anyhow) reproduce the full range of human hearing, then you need to buy more speakers to fill in the gaps, right?

More like improvements to the technology and cyclical trends. Ported speakers require a precise match between the driver characteristics, the cabinet volume, and the size of the vent. Once the Thiele/Small parameters were standardized starting around the mid-70s, manufacturers and hobbyists could accurately and inexpensively predict a ported speaker's tonal characteristics with different cabinet/vent combinations. Less trial-and-error and prototyping needed to get a ported design to sound right. The advantages of a ported design are their greater efficiency and more linear bass response down to the tuned port frequency.

Acoustic suspension designs are generally more forgiving, which is why beginner DIY hobbyists will often go with a sealed speaker for their first project. Subjectively, some listeners note that sealed speakers have a tighter and more natural sounding bass because they have a quicker transient response and a more gradual dropoff at the low end. However, the dropoff in the bass also starts higher up in the frequency range compared to a ported speaker. I think a big part of the ported speaker's popularity is because the lower efficiency and bass dropoff that begins sooner put the sealed speakers at a disadvantage in a dealer showroom comparison. A ported speaker will likely sound louder, with more bass. A sealed speaker can go deeper, but it won't go louder. A lot of other factors are in play, but those are the general differences.

As far as the full range goes, a lot of speaker design comes down to how far into that lower octave you want to go. n order for a main speaker to cover most of the audible range, they require very large surface area and/or large cabinets. It's difficult to get keep cabinets that large from resonating, which is why the full range speakers cost so much more. Subwoofers are a very cost-effective way of going into the lower octave because it only has to cover a limited range, only requires a single cabinet, and doesn't have to worry about how the bass response curve will affect the higher frequencies. More speakers won't give you more bass -- more capable speakers or a subwoofer will.

Kam
07-31-2006, 10:50 AM
A nice small speaker with good bass and is a sealed box is the NHT SB3. The bass is rated to 40hz. List price is $600. a pair. www.nhthifi.com

http://www.nhthifi.com/p-ht-superaudio.html

JM and me are both big nht fans, so i'll second the notion of checking out nht if you can. great speakers. :)

topspeed
07-31-2006, 03:13 PM
I'll third the NHT SB2 or SB3. You might also consider used speakers. You can get these Von Schweikert VR1's (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1158613456) on audiogon right now.

http://www.aurorasounds.co.kr/product/images/vr1.jpg

$600 (or less) for a $1,200 speaker is a great deal and if you don't like them, just flip them on audiogon for the same price or more. Go to vonschweikert.com for more info and links to reviews.

Hope this helps.

superpanavision70mm
07-31-2006, 06:21 PM
You certainly have a lot of great choices out there. I will also toot the PSB horn simply because for the money....I have yet to hear anything as good. I have compared them with Paradigm, B&W, Def. Tech, Klipsch, and other similar companies. Bottom line was that for my money, unless I wanted to spend over $10,000....PSB will always have something for me. I currently have the Image 7PT's and will eventually get the Platinum T8's.

Dusty Chalk
08-01-2006, 11:38 AM
Are these frat-boy speakers?

image 1 (http://uspug.com/TMP/KL777x-3.jpg)
image 2 (http://uspug.com/TMP/KL777x-2.jpg)

tin ear
08-01-2006, 05:38 PM
Are these frat-boy speakers?

image 1 (http://uspug.com/TMP/KL777x-3.jpg)
image 2 (http://uspug.com/TMP/KL777x-2.jpg)
LOL! :hand: I'm going to try not to step in it here...

Those are very attractive, if those are the grilles for them. A frat guy would throw the grilles away, or at least bury them somewhere. :D

Point well taken, though, Peter.

Here are some frat guy speakers:
http://keithsstuff4sale.tripod.com/speaker1.jpg
http://keithsstuff4sale.tripod.com/speaker2.jpg
Notice the industrial grilles. Designed not for aesthetics, but rarher to keep thrown beer bottles off the drivers.

For all I know, those could be the best sounding speakers in the world (I doubt it), but SWMBO ain't letting them in her living room. :nono:

-Jon

tin ear
08-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Wooch. Makes sense, especially since one of the paramaters I'm looking for (besides great sound, of course) is a smaller footprint.

Lot of votes for NHT & PSB out there. I'll definitely be looking to give those a listen (is that an oxymoron?), as well as all the others listed in this thread - I've made a list. :D

Dusty Chalk
08-01-2006, 07:03 PM
Here are some frat guy speakers:
http://keithsstuff4sale.tripod.com/speaker1.jpg
http://keithsstuff4sale.tripod.com/speaker2.jpg
Notice the industrial grilles. Designed not for aesthetics, but rarher to keep thrown beer bottles off the drivers.I don' notice nuthin' -- links don't work.

musiclover60
08-01-2006, 10:53 PM
tin ear,

I feel for ya buddy. My 20 plus year old JBL 46's crapped out one me a few months ago and everything I heard from the big stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) sounded like crap. I was looking in the same price range as you, gave up on that and jumped my budget to $1000. Went to some good stores and then my $1000 looked puny! Don't dispair though, there are some very good speakers a little over your budget that could be had within your budget if you buy demos, open box, etc. PSB's are nice. The NHT's I haven't heard, but I have heard they're made by the same people who used to make ADS, a very good loudspeaker, and excellant for the type of music you mentioned. Two I'd highly recommend are Definitive Technology (BP8b) and Vandersteen (1c). Both have excellant imaging. Both have crisp clear highs. Both have good bass (though they can be somewhat boomy if not positioned properly). And both have slightly subdued midranges. The Def Techs are $800 new, and the Vandersteens come in at about $850. They both can be had for about $650 or so for dems, etc (I got lucky and found my Def Techs at a pawn shop for $325 for 1-2 year old speakers). Most high end shops have Vandersteens. A lot of shops also carry the Def Techs, the problem there is they seem to want to carry the more expensive 7000 series (start at 1200).

In the end, the best thing to do is take some music you like to the store and let your ear decide.

Happy hunting!

tin ear
08-05-2006, 06:55 PM
have fun and let us know the outcome
I am just amazed at these speakers I bought, so I bought a matching pair of bookshelves to use as surrounds. T45s & B15s

I liked the Alpha Ts a lot; listened to them quite a while. Really liked the sound, but noticed maybe a touch of harshness. Parked myself & my discs in front of the Image T45s, and man! So much more fullness, smoother vocals, and surprising bass. Bought them on the spot. :D

Just for grins I thought I'd listen to PSB's small bookshelf spkrs because I really needed new surrounds as well. The Alpha Bs were pretty nice for such a small speaker. I easily could have lived with them, since my old surrounds were like 30 buck little plastic things from rat shack or somewhere that I'd bought for some purpose, don't remember what.

Figured I'd check out the Image line's small bookshelf, the B15, just to see if there was much difference. Whoa! Amazing! Those little buggers could pretty much stand on their own as fronts! In a small room, anyhow.

So I bought them too. Came in at twice my previously stated upper limit, but hey, I don't really need to eat all that much. :smilewinkgrin:

Thanks for all your help!
:)
-Jon

2chAlex
08-05-2006, 08:23 PM
Glad we all could help out. Enjoy

superpanavision70mm
08-06-2006, 08:11 PM
PSB wins again! If only more people would give proper respect to a company that blows everything else away in it's price range and sometimes 2x the price.

ENJOY! As I know you will!

bobsticks
08-07-2006, 04:26 AM
Glad to hear that you found what was best for you! Now the fun part starts...

...I'm also gald to hear you spiraled out of budget limitations. Now you're really part of the club:biggrin5:

Congrats and keep us informed...
M

3db
08-08-2006, 05:19 AM
I am just amazed at these speakers I bought, so I bought a matching pair of bookshelves to use as surrounds. T45s & B15s

I liked the Alpha Ts a lot; listened to them quite a while. Really liked the sound, but noticed maybe a touch of harshness. Parked myself & my discs in front of the Image T45s, and man! So much more fullness, smoother vocals, and surprising bass. Bought them on the spot. :D

Just for grins I thought I'd listen to PSB's small bookshelf spkrs because I really needed new surrounds as well. The Alpha Bs were pretty nice for such a small speaker. I easily could have lived with them, since my old surrounds were like 30 buck little plastic things from rat shack or somewhere that I'd bought for some purpose, don't remember what.

Figured I'd check out the Image line's small bookshelf, the B15, just to see if there was much difference. Whoa! Amazing! Those little buggers could pretty much stand on their own as fronts! In a small room, anyhow.

So I bought them too. Came in at twice my previously stated upper limit, but hey, I don't really need to eat all that much. :smilewinkgrin:

Thanks for all your help!
:)
-Jon



I have a complete PSB surround system with Image T45s as my mains, the older Image 8C center, Image 1B Surrounds and a Subsonic5 sub. I love it more everytime I play it and its been over a year since I purchased the T45s.

You should consider throwing in a review of your speakers into this sight after you had a chance to listen to them for awhile. I say awhile becuase I initially thought the T45s were a bit lacking in the bass. But after 2 weeks of listening to them, I found the bass response to become more pronounced but still very much in control.

Congrats Tin Ear and welcome to the family *chuckles*

littleb
08-08-2006, 06:46 PM
I would suggest that the bass response of the T45s was there all along. You might just be hearing things you didn't notice before.

tin ear
08-09-2006, 03:21 AM
I'm also gald to hear you spiraled out of budget limitations. Now you're really part of the club:biggrin5: uh oh..


Congrats Tin Ear and welcome to the family *chuckles* Should I worry?:eek6:
:D


You should consider throwing in a review of your speakers into this sight... Thanks. I am honored.

Oh, and Peter? Take a look at Likeitloud's avatar, LOL. Frat guy speaker? Maybe. Single guy speaker? Definitely!

-Jon

3db
08-09-2006, 04:35 AM
I would suggest that the bass response of the T45s was there all along. You might just be hearing things you didn't notice before.

I took note of that and I'm not a big believer in speaker break in, least not for the mids and highs. I was very concerned from what 1st appeared a lack of bass from these speakers to the point where I double checked the polarity of my speaker connections to the receiver. Then I recalled hearing bass from another pair at the store so I thought I would give them 2 weeks. By the end of the 2 weeks, I noticed a marked improvement in their bass response. Its not that they played any deeper but the bass that was there seemed stronger in amplitude relative to the rest of the music. Room placement did not change before or after those tests. I love these speakers and unless I have gobs of cash coming my way thru a lottery winning, I do not feel the need to upgrade.

littleb
08-09-2006, 07:57 AM
I certainly liked what I heard from them in the store. I've considered them in the past, I just think the older version(t4,t5) looked more, how should I say this, maybe solid looking.