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topspeed
07-17-2006, 01:26 PM
Martin Logan Summits!

http://content.costco.com/Images/Content/Product/117893L.jpg

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11140405&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1

Located on Aisle 5, right between the 40lb slabs of butter and flats of toilet tissue. :D

Woochifer
07-17-2006, 01:36 PM
Martin Logan Summits!

http://content.costco.com/Images/Content/Product/117893L.jpg

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11140405&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1

Located on Aisle 5, right between the 40lb slabs of butter and flats of toilet tissue. :D

Geez, I knew that the component audio biz has really struggled recently, but I have no idea how to interpret THIS!

And lemme guess, Bose has contractually obligated Costco to keep these speakers separated from the Lifestyle systems? Heaven forbid if customers can do their own comparisons in that fabulous acoustical environment! :)

ericl
07-17-2006, 01:46 PM
?????????????????????????

i thought you were kidding until i clicked on the link!!

paul_pci
07-17-2006, 04:50 PM
I too don't know what to say about this, except I guess rich people shop at Costco too.

JoeE SP9
07-17-2006, 04:51 PM
Martin Logan Summits!

http://content.costco.com/Images/Content/Product/117893L.jpg

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11140405&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1

Located on Aisle 5, right between the 40lb slabs of butter and flats of toilet tissue. :D

I went and checked through the link. Is that really their market? Costco's that is.:ihih:

elapsed
07-17-2006, 05:39 PM
http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/14089.html

Dealers are fuming over the availability of MartinLogan speakers at Costco.com. The products, which appear to be MartinLogan's Summit line of electrostatic speakers, are priced at $7,500 at Costco. Normally, they retail for $9,995.

A warning doesn't seem to do much good, since Costco provides its own generous warranty.

MartinLogan insists it did not authorize the sale of its products by Costco. In an open letter, president and CEO Rafael Nevares, said, "It came to our attention that MartinLogan products were being advertised for sale at Costco.com. This is, of course, unauthorized. As you know, we diligently monitor unauthorized sales of ML products and vigorously act to protect the MartinLogan brand."

Nevares says ML is asking Costco to remote the ML products from its site (fat chance), and has "taken aggressive steps to identify the supply source."

ML products bought from Costco will not carry a manufacturer's warranty, per ML policies about unauthorized distribution. No matter, Costco provides its own generous warranty, even on products not covered by the manufacturer.

The notice on the ML speakers says, "This item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an 'authorized' dealer of the merchandise."

ML isn't the first manufacturer of custom-oriented products that have found their wares on the Costco shelves. A few lucky customers have found some "protected" lines from Infocus and Denon at the chain in the past.

In addition to ML's electrostatic speakers, Costco is selling an ML subwoofer ($450) and flat-panel speaker ($750).

nightflier
07-18-2006, 08:29 AM
Not to digress, but if Costco is purchasing these from a source in the far East, that could potentially turn out to be the same source as Martin Logan's, then this could become very embarrassing for ML. The the next question is: what is the real value of these speakers?

Beware if you see these on eBay in the next few weeks....

hermanv
07-20-2006, 09:37 AM
Many manufacturers like to play games. They "protect" their dealers (this means leaving plenty of room for profit) and then sell at discounts out the back door knowing full well that a particular purchaser can't possibly move that amount of merchandise without also discounting it.

Fair trade and price fixing have been repeatadly struck down by the courts as being effectively the same as mafia protection, someone else pays the cost. The whole thing being started by the manufacturer's own policy of selling a product for less money if you buy a lot of them

All this would be fine, it's between the manufacturer and the dealer to argue out, untill they try to put the end customer in the middle to take both blame and absorb the cost of "protecting" the dealer by playing games with warranties.

Costco is presumably selling brand new speakers made by Martin Logan who sold them with full warranties and now they want the consumer to absorb that dealer protection cost. As pointed out above, Costco has done an end run on this nonsense, good for them.

I think California has a law about warranties. New goods sold legally will have a full warranty regardles of policy by said manufacturer who is to put as simply as possible cheating his own dealer. At the very least, the manufacturer is burning the candle at both ends.

I like my local dealer. I never audition there in order to buy cheaper elsewhere, it's unethical. He needs to find a way to survive by offering me something worth giving up that discount. No one protects my income, I have no real need to protect his. If Martin Logan wants to protect his income, that's fine by me, but Martin logan should pay, not invent policies to force me to support the local dealers profits.

ps.
I like Martin Logan speakers.
I don't very much like Costco, I'll shop there, but often as a last resort.
Capitalism has it's flaws, but works mostly only if you let it.

The Tahitijack
07-20-2006, 10:03 AM
Remember the days when Costco sold third tier or discontinued products? Over the last few years they have moved up the retail ladder and you'll now find current models from major brands in their warehouse stores. While we were worried about the loss of small specialty retailers to the other big box chains like Circuit City and Best Buy, Costco was hard at work to get a share of this market. Costco is powerful retailer and is/will be a major force in all retail catagories. They frightened the major grocery chains so much that the majro food stores tried unsuccessfully to get the State of California to ban food stores that exceeded 60,000 square feet. Costco is now working to take a share of the office product market. Their demographic is not necessairly the low or middle income. Remember the lessons learned from "The Millionaire Next Door"? The rich get rich and stay by finding ways to keep/save their money. If I can save $2K on fine audio gear by buying it at Costco thats fine with me. For the middle class most are willing to buy home electronics the same way they buy dog food. At Costco its cheeper, convenient and there is a no hassel return policy. They don't want to spend months researching and auditioning before a purchase. They buy on impulse when they are ready to make a purchase like a plasma tv. If it looks good enough in the brightly lit Costco warehouse then it should be fine in the family room. Done deal. I would not be surprised to see more up scale products at Costco IF there is a market for them. If they don't move quickly the floor space they now occupy will be filled with fast moving more profitable items, because one of the key to Costco's business model is that products are sold to the consumer before the venor's envoice arrives at the AP department.

Feanor
07-20-2006, 10:20 AM
Martin Logan Summits!


http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11140405&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1

Located on Aisle 5, right between the 40lb slabs of butter and flats of toilet tissue. :D

The last town I lived in at a a couple of pretty good dealers, pleasant to deal with, who would loan you any piece of equipment to audition at home. I bought several things from him on that basis. Unfortunately he carried very few lines and kept few items in stock.

On the other hand, the two local audiophile dealers where I live now, won't lend you equipment, though at least one will let you return it without a restocking charge. They carry more lines but relatively little stock. They are also arrogant and ignorant in varying degrees.

I have bought a number of things on the basis of reviews in the mags and on the Internet. This works a lot better than taking a single dealer's advice, for sure. What then is the value of a local dealer? Why shouldn't I get a better price from non-audiophile source? If there's a reason, it eludes me.

All in all, I despise the mystic of high-end audio that makes you feel unworthy unless you willing & eager to spend ever more ridiculous amounts of money and ever more tiny, not to say imaginary improvements. Audiophile dealers typically do all they can to encourage this mystic.

kexodusc
07-20-2006, 11:25 AM
This should just serve as proof that Martin Logan's are crappy speakers, because any speaker sold at a big-box retailer is crap.















(sarcastic emphasis added)

hermanv
07-20-2006, 12:23 PM
This should just serve as proof that Martin Logan's are crappy speakers, because any speaker sold at a big-box retailer is crap. Good thinking, I notice my Costco carries Michelin Tires, I should have known. I guess I'll switch to that May-Pop brand at my local recap scam shop.















(sarcastic emphasis added)[/QUOTE]

nightflier
07-20-2006, 01:27 PM
This should just serve as proof that Martin Logan's are crappy speakers, because any speaker sold at a big-box retailer is crap.

I'm not too familiar with ML's higher end stuff, but it does beg the question: what are these speakers really worth? Most of the components are probably assembled by child labor overseas and I presume that the woodwork and enclosures are too. Maybe a lot of the expense went into the research, I don't know, but how different are these speakers really from the next model down? From the looks of them, I'll guess that maybe $2000 is parts, another $1500 in reasearch and $1000 in marketing, that still does not get up to $10,000.

I'm no expert, but in my book a good test of what a product is really worth is to see what it's selling for at auction. That's what people are willing to pay for it. I'm no economics expert, but it has been my experience that the higher the price is in the stratosphere, the less it sells for at auction - sort of like a 5-year old Corvette that sells for far less of its original value than a 5-year old Camry.

As far as local shops vs. the big chains, this has been discussed a lot elsewhere. For me, I search out the smaller mom & pops. It's often more time-consuming and perhaps not as inexpensive than the warehouses, but it supports the industry better in my opinion. I may not become the millionaire next door, but if I don't feel good about something I own, then the joy in owning it for a long time isn't there either - sort of like eating a hotdog after getting a tour of the Wienerschnitzel slaughterhouse.

hermanv
07-20-2006, 02:18 PM
What are they worth? Very hard to answer. It used to be that everyone wanted to make money. Today everyone wants to make a killing.

Most retail stores (smaller ones) need to double their cost to survive, so they pay I'd guess $5,000 for a pair of Summits.

If there's a distributor a typical mark-up is 25% to 50%, this is because in theory they stock and wharehouse for the small seller, keeping his inventory costs low. They sometmes finance and often pay for the biggest part of shipping to a nearby distribution center.

So my guess is that Summits sell for between $2,500 and 4,000 at the factory. I think they are made in the US with US labor.

All guesses, high end low volume may well have differenet ratios.

godfatherofsoul
07-24-2006, 03:25 PM
I'm not too familiar with ML's higher end stuff, but it does beg the question: what are these speakers really worth? Most of the components are probably assembled by child labor overseas and I presume that the woodwork and enclosures are too. Maybe a lot of the expense went into the research, I don't know, but how different are these speakers really from the next model down? From the looks of them, I'll guess that maybe $2000 is parts, another $1500 in reasearch and $1000 in marketing, that still does not get up to $10,000.

I'm no expert, but in my book a good test of what a product is really worth is to see what it's selling for at auction. That's what people are willing to pay for it. I'm no economics expert, but it has been my experience that the higher the price is in the stratosphere, the less it sells for at auction - sort of like a 5-year old Corvette that sells for far less of its original value than a 5-year old Camry.

As far as local shops vs. the big chains, this has been discussed a lot elsewhere. For me, I search out the smaller mom & pops. It's often more time-consuming and perhaps not as inexpensive than the warehouses, but it supports the industry better in my opinion. I may not become the millionaire next door, but if I don't feel good about something I own, then the joy in owning it for a long time isn't there either - sort of like eating a hotdog after getting a tour of the Wienerschnitzel slaughterhouse.

Actually, ML's are made in Lawrence, KS - who said there's nothing in Kansas but wheat? - and one trip to the factory was all it took for me to understand the care and expertise that goes into making Martin Logan speakers. I sell Martin Logan speakers and I can vouch for their quality and sound. Keep in mind that Costco might have them, but what are they going to do when one needs service? Talk all you want about the warranty and the law forcing coverage, but see what happens when you try to take them in for service...

Cheers

Florian
07-25-2006, 12:57 PM
Its a real pity what has become of Martin Logan. They were some of the best speakers out there, the only good news is that now people can buy the CLSII and the Monoliths for much lower since most newcomers go for the tiny hybrids.

Nothing like a Soundlab or Acoustat in the E-Stat world :cornut:

nightflier
07-25-2006, 02:36 PM
OK, so they come from Kansas, but we're not in Kansas anymore. How did Costco get these speakers and what was their deal? Certainly ML should provide us with some answers.

hermanv
07-27-2006, 09:55 AM
...edit.... I sell Martin Logan speakers and I can vouch for their quality and sound. Keep in mind that Costco might have them, but what are they going to do when one needs service? Talk all you want about the warranty and the law forcing coverage, but see what happens when you try to take them in for service...Cheers

My opinion is that Martin Logan sold these speakers, Martin Logan accepted and pocketed the money for these speakers, for Martin Logan now to deny a warranty to an end user (who broke no laws and did not participate in any scam of any sort) makes only one conclusion possible to me. Sorry to be blunt, but squeezing an arbitrary third party for your dealers profit is hard for me to define any other way other than, "crooked".

I say dealer profit because Martin Logan accepted an offer and sold the speakers, they got what they wanted.

I think the dealers should sue Martin Logan for undercutting their relationship instead of hiding behind the swarmy "just try and get service".