65, 70 or 80 watts per channel

[cmeb]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and I am looking for a new A/V reciever. I mostly listen to music, but I also want to set up a surround sound system for watching DVD's. I like Harmon Kardon, after reading many reviews, and I don't know how many watts per channel I would need. I like to crank up the music, and mainly listen to rock. My reciever now, is an old JVC, 80 watts per channel. Can I get 65 watts per channel, and still be happy?

[soundgarden877]

no, drop loot on something better like a system that can produce 100w5.1 and make sure your speakers and new amp are the same wattage and impdenace/omhage and speakers are all same brand for voice matching with the center channel even in the middle with its tweeter even height to the tower or front tweeters you will experanice a more realism for your dvds

[cmeb]

Ok, by new amp, are you saying I need a separate power amp, besides the new reciever?

[Woochifer]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and I am looking for a new A/V reciever. I mostly listen to music, but I also want to set up a surround sound system for watching DVD's. I like Harmon Kardon, after reading many reviews, and I don't know how many watts per channel I would need. I like to crank up the music, and mainly listen to rock. My reciever now, is an old JVC, 80 watts per channel. Can I get 65 watts per channel, and still be happy?

Don't get all worked up over the wattage specs. The actual difference in volume between 65 watts and 80 watts on a typical speaker will amount to less than 3 decibels -- i.e., barely perceptible. Of course, that's IF you can stand that volume output and IF the receiver can actually output that amount into all channels (most AV receivers actually deliver less than 50 watts/channel, many of which might be rated for 100+ watts/channel on paper, when all channels are driven simultaneously).

Keep in mind that a typical speaker will output about 80-85 db to your listening position with just ONE watt of output. To increase the output by 10 db will require 10 watts, and getting to 100-105 db will require 100 watts. I don't know about you, but 85 db is already on the high side for normal listening, and 100 db is unbearable for any sustained stretch of time.

So, the answer to your question is yes you can get 65 watts per channel and still be happy, primarily because you're probably not going to use anywhere near 65 watts/channel and because a low end h/k or JVC receiver won't be able (or need) to deliver that amount of output anyway. Focus on the sound quality, the build quality, and the user experience. Those things matter a lot more in real life, whereas wattage specs make for good ad copy.

Also, with the speaker wattage ratings -- those are nothing more than a maximum on what the speakers can theoretically handle. They don't mean much in normal listening because the actual wattage output under normal listening is usually far less than the maximum. Plus, the content of the signal also matters a lot because a distorted/clipped signal can damage a speaker with less than the maximum wattage.

[kexodusc]

Wooch gives good advice...it'd be worth your while to read it again.
Just to add, I'm fairly confident a modern Harman Kardon receiver rated at 55 watts or more would have more power and a bigger power supply unit (a good indication of real power ability) than an 85 watt JVC. Harman tends to use a much stricter testing protocol to arrive at their power ratings. If your old JVC plays loud enough (how old we talking here?) there shouldn't be any issue.
And chances are in all but the biggest rooms, 55 honest watts per channel is plenty for now.
Try to pay attention to receiver features at a given price point, the wattage and sound qualities are fairly similar dollar for dollar across receivers. I really find it's those add-on features that are often the afterthoughts for buyers - pay attention to those, you might find a few connections or decoding differences provide you more flexibility or utility in the future.

[N. Abstentia]

no, drop loot on something better like a system that can produce 100w5.1 and make sure your speakers and new amp are the same wattage and impdenace/omhage and speakers are all same brand for voice matching with the center channel even in the middle with its tweeter even height to the tower or front tweeters you will experanice a more realism for your dvds

I seriously hope you were joking here. Please tell me you were not being serious.

[N. Abstentia]

Yeah listen to Wooch and Kex.

Your JVC might say 80 watts, but you'd be lucky to get 30 useable watts out of a unit like that.

[emorphien]

Wooch gives good advice...it'd be worth your while to read it again.
Just to add, I'm fairly confident a modern Harman Kardon receiver rated at 55 watts or more would have more power and a bigger power supply unit (a good indication of real power ability) than an 85 watt JVC. Harman tends to use a much stricter testing protocol to arrive at their power ratings. If your old JVC plays loud enough (how old we talking here?) there shouldn't be any issue.
And chances are in all but the biggest rooms, 55 honest watts per channel is plenty for now.
Try to pay attention to receiver features at a given price point, the wattage and sound qualities are fairly similar dollar for dollar across receivers. I really find it's those add-on features that are often the afterthoughts for buyers - pay attention to those, you might find a few connections or decoding differences provide you more flexibility or utility in the future.
Agreed. Somewhere somebody showed that a 55WPC H/K was pumping over 85 with the same or better THD measured vs what HK specifies.

Don't get hung up on wattage (for one thing how big is your room?), watts are not created equal. That $400 sony 150 watt x 7 channel receiver at best buy will easily be clobbered by a good 60wpc receiver.

My H/K runs a supposed 55wpc in surround and I've never pushed it much beyond -23db or so and that's getting painfully loud from any source with a reasonable output.

[cmeb]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. My room is 20x27 by the way.

[Geoffcin]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. My room is 20x27 by the way.

If it's all going to be devoted to your HT, you need to seriously think about what you want from it.

You say you want to setup an HT system, so I assume you DO NOT have a full 5.1 speaker system already. I can assure you that ALL of your HT choices, whether for a receiver, or a sub will be predicated on what kind of speakers your running. 65,55, or 140 wpc are meaningless numbers unless you know what speakers are running

[kexodusc]

Yeah, 20 X 27 is a bit big
Mine's 20 X 24 ish, and I could get by with a receiver that plays an honest 30 watts into all channels or so, and still get fairly loud volumes. But you'll run out of headroom faster than you'd think...Room size is only part of it...if you're close to all your speakers, the large room isn't quite as big of a problem. If your speakers are on the outside walls of the room, well, you'll want to make sure you have enough power.
Still, as Geoffcin says, you might want to think carefully here about what you're trying to accomplish. Too small a reciever with power hungry speakers in that room is a recipe for disaster. You'll want speakers with real sensitivity in the 87-90 dB range if you're getting a 50 watt X 5 Harman Kardon.. less than that and your going to be stressing the receiver during loud scenes.
If you can, try to arrange for an in home demo, some dealers allow that, some don't. Or at least a liberal exchange/return policy. You don't want to be stuck with too small a receiver.

[cmeb]

OK, the front speakers I have now, are axiom m60's, min 10 watts-max 250 watts. Their db is, well they have 2 db's in the manual, SPL in room 1w/1m - 93db's and SPL anechoic 1w/1m -89db's. My sitting area is 15 feet from the front speakers.

[Geoffcin]

OK, the front speakers I have now, are axiom m60's, min 10 watts-max 250 watts. Their db is, well they have 2 db's in the manual, SPL in room 1w/1m - 93db's and SPL anechoic 1w/1m -89db's. My sitting area is 15 feet from the front speakers.
And there was no problem reaching high dB with my 100wpc receiver in my room. They did like better it when I hooked them up to higher powered/quality amps though. Right now a friend has them running with a PS Audio 200c amp that has 400wpc (into 4 ohms), and they sound great.

[bonsaiguitar]

And there was no problem reaching high dB with my 100wpc receiver in my room. They did like better it when I hooked them up to higher powered/quality amps though. Right now a friend has them running with a PS Audio 200c amp that has 400wpc (into 4 ohms), and they sound great.

Don't get too caught up in wattage ratings. Mine is rated at 55 wpc in 7.1 and 70 in stereo. It has no problem at all kicking out some serious sound. It gets loud enough that I turn it down to see if I can hear anything dropping off the walls in the other rooms. To me that's plenty. If you're buying a quality receiver anything over 40wpc should be fine unless you have a very large room.

WELCOME

[cmeb]

so can I get away with a 65 wpc reciever or should I go bigger?

[bonsaiguitar]

so can I get away with a 65 wpc reciever or should I go bigger?

65 wpc should be fine for the average size room.

[markw]

so can I get away with a 65 wpc reciever or should I go bigger?Make sure that whatever receiver you choose has outputs to allow you to run separate power amps. It's a common feature but not all receivers have it.

...just in case...

[Geoffcin]

Make sure that whatever receiver you choose has outputs to allow you to run separate power amps. It's a common feature but not all receivers have it.

...just in case...
Right now I'm running two seperate amps off my receiver for the front and center channels.

I'm pretty sure nearly all of the HK line allows you to do this.

[kexodusc]

Right now I'm running two seperate amps off my receiver for the front and center channels.

I'm pretty sure nearly all of the HK line allows you to do this.

Yep, my receiver can handle my speakers in my room (which are about 88-90 dB sensitive) but the 3 amps I have connected to the receiver make them sing effortlessly. Even adding one, decent amplifier of 40-60 watts/channel for the front mains takes a tremendous burden off the receivers power supply. Especially if you have 5 or even 7 home theater speakers. Your room is even bigger than mine. To be honest, the difference between a 50 watt receiver and 65 watt receiver isn't much. If the features are more or less equal, that extra money would be better allocated to a decent external power amp. In my case, it improved the sound of the front L/R speakers for stereo playback too. You can find quality, inexpensive power amps on the used market starting as low as $100 or so that'll get you started, how much you want above that is up to you.

[poneal]

so can I get away with a 65 wpc reciever or should I go bigger?

Hi, I have a slightly bigger room than yours and have a HK AVR320 that puts out 55wpc all channels driven. This was mostly enough power but there were times I craved for more. LIke digital music on Time Warner. Some stations have a really low signal output so you have to crank it to hear it. Although the HK did do a good job of driving my 4ohm speakers it got very warm to the touch. I ended up getting a separate amp for the mains and I can testify that I could hear a difference. Not so much in the mid and treble regions but the bass. Much better bass impact and control. Another thing you need to remember is that these AVRs have a lot of electronics in them. DSP processors, preamplifiers, amplifiers, radio, etc. I've found that the average life span of most AVRs sold in big chain stores only last maybe 5 years. This is another reason to go with a solid amp that hopefully will last 30+ years. I just recently bought this one and absolutely love it. The fan never comes on and it has all the headroom I need. Basically, it all comes down to how much money and what you want and how long you want to keep it.

Cheers,

Paul


Amp: http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/amp.jpg
Specs: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-P2500S-Dual-Channel-Power-Amp?sku=480824

[bonsaiguitar]

You also have a volume on your cable box with Time Warner. Try turning it up seperate from the receiver.

[poneal]

You also have a volume on your cable box with Time Warner. Try turning it up seperate from the receiver.

Wow, I just went and checked and it does have a volume control. Thanks for that bit of info as I never look at the cable box :-).

NM, it was set at max already.

[emorphien]

Wow, I just went and checked and it does have a volume control. Thanks for that bit of info as I never look at the cable box :-).
I too have noticed that the cable channels can vary wildly in level. I've got the box fixed to a level that works well for just about everything and I've turned off the volume control on it so people can't muck with the cable box.

My room is also small enough that 55wpc from my HK is plenty. So far it's been good to me and it's a little over 3 years old.

[poneal]

I too have noticed that the cable channels can vary wildly in level. I've got the box fixed to a level that works well for just about everything and I've turned off the volume control on it so people can't muck with the cable box.

My room is also small enough that 55wpc from my HK is plenty. So far it's been good to me and it's a little over 3 years old.

I can vouch for HK support. At the beginning of the 4th year of service I started having problems. The Surround Off, 5 channel and 7 channel LEDs started flickering. I took it to an authorized tech center in town and HK paid the parts and I paid the labor. Six month later the same thing is happening so I email tech support again. This time they are sending it out to a premier tech center and will bring the AVr back up to factory specs all under warranty even though my warranty expired. That's service. The only thing is it will be gone for over a month I'm sure.

I think I read the same article as you. The HK was rated for 55wpc into 8ohms but actuallyput out like 87 or something and 100+ into 4ohms.

[s dog]

I was alway told to buy all the power you can afford, because it is a lot better for your receiver to turn more power than you need down than it is to try to turn not enough power up. If you go with a lower wattage receiver make sure it has pre-outs on it so you can add a bigger amp down the road if you want to.

[emorphien]

I was alway told to buy all the power you can afford, because it is a lot better for your receiver to turn more power than you need down than it is to try to turn not enough power up. If you go with a lower wattage receiver make sure it has pre-outs on it so you can add a bigger amp down the road if you want to.
Buying all the power you can afford doesn't mean buying a cheap 100 watt 7.1 system over a 55 watt 5.1 system. Power is good, but don't sacrifice sound quality and meaningful features for it if you have no use for that much.

It's a multifaceted issue, you have to balance your room, listening position, speakers, budget and what the actual receivers you're looking at can handle.

[kexodusc]

I was alway told to buy all the power you can afford, because it is a lot better for your receiver to turn more power than you need down than it is to try to turn not enough power up. If you go with a lower wattage receiver make sure it has pre-outs on it so you can add a bigger amp down the road if you want to.

More power isn't always a good thing. Consider your listening habbits. If you never listen to music above 100 dB's and you have a modest sized room, say 300 sq feet or smaller, big wattage amps aren't necessary.
More power isn't necessarily going to sound better if you aren't placing those high power demands on the amp.
Watts aren't all that expensive, but they do cost money. Look at any amplifier manufacturer. If an amp of quality and performance grade X costs so much, a higher powered amplifier will cost more money. I would suggest divert that additional money to superior electronics - better amplifier with fewer watts - if you don't need more power. Having enough power is the goal, not unlimited power.

[poneal]

More power isn't always a good thing. Consider your listening habbits. If you never listen to music above 100 dB's and you have a modest sized room, say 300 sq feet or smaller, big wattage amps aren't necessary.
More power isn't necessarily going to sound better if you aren't placing those high power demands on the amp.
Watts aren't all that expensive, but they do cost money. Look at any amplifier manufacturer. If an amp of quality and performance grade X costs so much, a higher powered amplifier will cost more money. I would suggest divert that additional money to superior electronics - better amplifier with fewer watts - if you don't need more power. Having enough power is the goal, not unlimited power.

Yup, it's just like speaker building. There are always compromises whether that be money, quality, phase, impedance, FR, or whatever. At one of the DIY events last year one gentleman showed an example of how much power is really needed. It was really amazing that some notes can actually pull 100 watts--this of course in milliseconds. And it wasn't playing loud. So you can imagine how many watts are consumed by some loud moments in orchestra music. Quality is the key here. Once you have your budget set, then explore all options that are avaiable and select the one that meets your needs the most. Then again, it sure is nice to have 250 watts available :-).

I'm sure you saw my post about my new Yamaha purchase. Well, it's a killer amp. Clean, clear, and authoratative on the low end. I could hear the difference in bass quality with this newer amp whereas the mid and treble are pretty much the same. Headroom sure is nice. I am convinced that an average person should get a pro amp such as for a stereo setup or to use as driving mains in your HT.

BTW, have you seen my "Aegis 3.5 ways" design? It's on my home page.

Cheers,

Paul

[kexodusc]

Yup, it's just like speaker building. There are always compromises whether that be money, quality, phase, impedance, FR, or whatever. At one of the DIY events last year one gentleman showed an example of how much power is really needed. It was really amazing that some notes can actually pull 100 watts--this of course in milliseconds. And it wasn't playing loud. So you can imagine how many watts are consumed by some loud moments in orchestra music. Quality is the key here. Once you have your budget set, then explore all options that are avaiable and select the one that meets your needs the most. Then again, it sure is nice to have 250 watts available :-).

I'm sure you saw my post about my new Yamaha purchase. Well, it's a killer amp. Clean, clear, and authoratative on the low end. I could hear the difference in bass quality with this newer amp whereas the mid and treble are pretty much the same. Headroom sure is nice. I am convinced that an average person should get a pro amp such as for a stereo setup or to use as driving mains in your HT.

BTW, have you seen my "Aegis 3.5 ways" design? It's on my home page.

Cheers,

Paul
Sure have Paul, saw you bought the new Yammie too...I've just been really busy and posting has been a bit more sporadic.

There's always an exception to every rule. My Vifa XT woofers in my towers love power - it has nothing to do with sensitivity either - they just sound better the more I give them for some reason - they handle it so well compared to say, poly cones or even aluminum ones.

But for the most part I think people get carried away with watts. My old NAD 3020 integrated only has a modest 40 watts/channel rating, but will easily pump out more than 100 watts/channel during dynamic peaks. Only for split seconds, but the juice is there. Sustaining that volume would probably destroy the amp or my ears. I think most people who move from receivers to quality amps, pro or otherwise, initially notice that big difference in bass authority.

[poneal]

Sure have Paul, saw you bought the new Yammie too...I've just been really busy and posting has been a bit more sporadic.

There's always an exception to every rule. My Vifa XT woofers in my towers love power - it has nothing to do with sensitivity either - they just sound better the more I give them for some reason - they handle it so well compared to say, poly cones or even aluminum ones.

But for the most part I think people get carried away with watts. My old NAD 3020 integrated only has a modest 40 watts/channel rating, but will easily pump out more than 100 watts/channel during dynamic peaks. Only for split seconds, but the juice is there. Sustaining that volume would probably destroy the amp or my ears. I think most people who move from receivers to quality amps, pro or otherwise, initially notice that big difference in bass authority.

Yup, taking those bad boys to the Texas DIY event this year to see what the other fellows think. I think they will be impressed personally, but hey, ya never know. Ya I had an old Pioneer SX ### that said 50 wpc. **** more like 100 into 8ohms and 200 into 4ohms. This Yammie has brought those memories back so I'm a pretty happy camper. Oh, more toys on the way. I have a Yammie mixer and TC Electronics effects processor coming in. Time to hook up the mics, pop open some drinks, and have a good old time singing. Maybe my buddy can bring his guitar over and I can mix his guitar in too. As you can see, I'm having a blast with all this sound equipment around. Well, you take care.

Paul

[markw]

You also have a volume on your cable box with Time Warner. Try turning it up seperate from the receiver.They won't give your amp any more power. They will just allow you to max out it's capabilities at a lower volume setting on the receiver.

To wit: you may wind up clipping at a level below zero if it's turned up too high.

...kinda like adding an "11" to your guitar amp. ;)

[markw]

Ya I had an old Pioneer SX ### that said 50 wpc. **** more like 100 into 8ohms and 200 into 4ohms. They were rated with more stringent criteria* than is used on today's HT receivers. They were made when a watt was a watt and both channels would produce that at all times, not using this "only one out of seven channels driven at 1khz" crap.

My 70 watt Marantz 2270 measured over 90 wpc at 8 ohms. I still crank it daily into some JBL L-26 Decades.

*The 1974 FTC ruling made a lot of those older "70 watt IHF, or 'music power'" amps suddenly drop to 40 watt amps with no circuit changes. The Dynaco SCA 35 comes to mind here.

[bonsaiguitar]

They won't give your amp any more power. They will just allow you to max out it's capabilities at a lower volume setting on the receiver.

To wit: you may wind up clipping at a level below zero if it's turned up too high.

...kinda like adding an "11" to your guitar amp. ;)

It will give you more volume to even it out with the rest of your source devices. Works perfect for me. Not everyone uses 10 on their controls and only Spinal Tap uses 11.

[poneal]

They won't give your amp any more power. They will just allow you to max out it's capabilities at a lower volume setting on the receiver.

To wit: you may wind up clipping at a level below zero if it's turned up too high.

...kinda like adding an "11" to your guitar amp. ;)

I was just thinking the same thing last night. I asked myself why did the tech that installed the equipment put it at max volume or maybe thats the default. So I turned it down to around 70% gain.

[kexodusc]

I was just thinking the same thing last night. I asked myself why did the tech that installed the equipment put it at max volume or maybe thats the default. So I turned it down to around 70% gain.
I forget the exact explanation, but over at the HDTV forums it was explained why those cable/satellite set-top boxes have the volumes jacked up so high - if memory serves it has something to do with Dolby Digital standards or the digital output standards - I wish I had the link. Having it below that can lead to poorer results (though I've never observed any myself). Anyway, those things aren't likely to clip - they have more than enough power to supply the right voltage, even at max -don't be afraid to turn it up to the recommended setting if you prefer.

[bonsaiguitar]

I forget the exact explanation, but over at the HDTV forums it was explained why those cable/satellite set-top boxes have the volumes jacked up so high - if memory serves it has something to do with Dolby Digital standards or the digital output standards - I wish I had the link. Having it below that can lead to poorer results (though I've never observed any myself). Anyway, those things aren't likely to clip - they have more than enough power to supply the right voltage, even at max -don't be afraid to turn it up to the recommended setting if you prefer.

Yeah, what he said. I don't have a problem at all with mine and leave it at 20 and max is 30. The problem most people have is they don't realize the volume on the box and have it around 5 and wonder why DVD's, CD's, and the tuner sound loud and the cable TV/Music weak. It's a pretty common and simple solution that many overlook. Not at all technical.