Quad 22L

[BillyB]

I have Rotel Amp and Pre-amp,Arcam 73T CDP and B&W 703's. The 703's are very edgy and too out front with way too much top end in my room.The Arcam was my last attempt to tone down the system and while it's an excellent player I'm still unhappy with this system as it's currently configured.I know my room's acoustics are less than ideal(oak floors,cathedral ceiling,can't move speakers more than 8 inches off wall), but my previous Proacs actually sounded quite good as they're a much more neutral sounding speaker.The 703's are 2 years old and I just can't live with them.I was at a friends house who had Quad 22L's connected to components of similar quality to mine.I was completely blown away by how much better his system sounded compared to mine.His room has better conditions than mine, but there seemed to be more to it than that to my ear.I have since done some research on the 22L's and they seem like they might be a perfect fit for my system and room conditions.I haven't been able to find a local dealer who has the 22L's so I can audition them.(I have a local Quad dealer but he doesn't have demos for this model)I was just looking for some feedback on these Quads as I'm very intrigued by some of the incredible reviews for the 22L.I noticed it's a rear ported speaker so I guess it would sound better further off the wall than my room allows.I could resort to sliding the speakers off the wall for listening sessions, but would have to move them back every time as they would be in the way for normal room use.This option didn't imrove the imaging of the 703's enough to warrant doing it every time I listened to my system.I don't think my friend's the kind of person who would be receptive to me borrowing his 22L's for a day or that would be a no-brainer.My used 703's are worth a little less than new 22L's and I'm more than willing to take the loss to get the right sound.The rest of my system including wires ran around 4K and including the 3k 703's it's a huge disappointment for a system in the 7K range.I know a system needs to be carefully mated and I blew it with the B&W's.I'm hoping a more neutral speaker in the $1500 price range will at least be an improvement if not a total solution.Thanks in advance for any opinions

[J C]

Hi, BillyB,

Man, setting up a pleasing audio system is a tough job.
I have a pair of 22Ls. I think I can tell you something that could be of interest.
My room: L= 28.8', W=19,8', H=12,4', no accoustic treatment as yet.
I bought my Quads some 30 months ago. They have good bass extension, play well for my taste, are decent little tower loudspeakers and I don't think of a change.
At first, getting the power and ground from ordinary wall outlets, I hooked them just to my Rotel RB-1080 amplifier and Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 cd player using interconnect/speaker cables more expensive than the Audioquests I have now and, after finding the best location for them in my room, they sounded nicely. The problem was the huge increase in volume - the cd player first volume steps were extremely steep. Instead of lowering the cd player voltage output (required some soldering), I decided to buy a preamp.
While searching for it I built a dedicated power line and ground for the system and ordered Audioquest Coral/CQ interconnects and GBC bi-wire loudspeaker cables to HCM Audio (www.hcmaudio.com).
A tube preamp was built for me here in Brazil by an Engineer who had lived and worked for some time in the USA. With the new preamp and new cables the Quads sounded differently. Not a radical change but a feeling of smooth involvement and I could hear some details that weren't there before. I pulled off the preamp (it was not possible that the cables could make any difference) and used the old configuration with the new cables: the velvety and more focused sound was still there.
I reported the fact to the preamp builder. He told me that adding a tube amp to the new configuration would bring the system to a even higher quality degree. I ordered his 25 Watt Class A Triode. With the Triode the Quads seemed to sound slim, flimsy.
Crestfallen, I told the builder that his tube amp wasn't good, the 200 Watt per channel RB-1080 was the one with guts, was trully dynamic, his amp was a poor underdog. I was intoxicated by the solid state sound, he said: as junk food it has too much stuffing and few nutrients. He asked me to go on hearing the tubes and assured that after a while I would start to value their delicacy, subtleness and true wide range. So I did. Now I use the solid state amp only for rock. Jazz, chorinho, bossa nova, classical I play with the tubes. Now I want to add a subwoofer to the system. With the Sub the amp will be relieved from the low frequencies and will help the Quads yield their best.
Oh, I went astray. Let's go back to the 22Ls.
Don't buy them in a hurry. I told you my personal experience. Each case is unique. You have to take into consideration (forgive the tautology) your listening environment, speaker placement, the equipment placed before the 22Ls and your own ears which are different from everybody else's. I think you should try them at home for some time before filling the check. Remember, if you hear them in a show-room, at home they could sound quite different.
It was not my intention to preachify or put on airs. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Feel free to contact me if you think I can be of any help and good luck.

[BillyB]

Hi, BillyB,

Man, setting up a pleasing audio system is a tough job.
I have a pair of 22Ls. I think I can tell you something that could be of interest.
My room: L= 28.8', W=19,8', H=12,4', no accoustic treatment as yet.
I bought my Quads some 30 months ago. They have good bass extension, play well for my taste, are decent little tower loudspeakers and I don't think of a change.
At first, getting the power and ground from ordinary wall outlets, I hooked them just to my Rotel RB-1080 amplifier and Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 cd player using interconnect/speaker cables more expensive than the Audioquests I have now and, after finding the best location for them in my room, they sounded nicely. The problem was the huge increase in volume - the cd player first volume steps were extremely steep. Instead of lowering the cd player voltage output (required some soldering), I decided to buy a preamp.
While searching for it I built a dedicated power line and ground for the system and ordered Audioquest Coral/CQ interconnects and GBC bi-wire loudspeaker cables to HCM Audio (www.hcmaudio.com).
A tube preamp was built for me here in Brazil by an Engineer who had lived and worked for some time in the USA. With the new preamp and new cables the Quads sounded differently. Not a radical change but a feeling of smooth involvement and I could hear some details that weren't there before. I pulled off the preamp (it was not possible that the cables could make any difference) and used the old configuration with the new cables: the velvety and more focused sound was still there.
I reported the fact to the preamp builder. He told me that adding a tube amp to the new configuration would bring the system to a even higher quality degree. I ordered his 25 Watt Class A Triode. With the Triode the Quads seemed to sound slim, flimsy.
Crestfallen, I told the builder that his tube amp wasn't good, the 200 Watt per channel RB-1080 was the one with guts, was trully dynamic, his amp was a poor underdog. I was intoxicated by the solid state sound, he said: as junk food it has too much stuffing and few nutrients. He asked me to go on hearing the tubes and assured that after a while I would start to value their delicacy, subtleness and true wide range. So I did. Now I use the solid state amp only for rock. Jazz, chorinho, bossa nova, classical I play with the tubes. Now I want to add a subwoofer to the system. With the Sub the amp will be relieved from the low frequencies and will help the Quads yield their best.
Oh, I went astray. Let's go back to the 22Ls.
Don't buy them in a hurry. I told you my personal experience. Each case is unique. You have to take into consideration (forgive the tautology) your listening environment, speaker placement, the equipment placed before the 22Ls and your own ears which are different from everybody else's. I think you should try them at home for some time before filling the check. Remember, if you hear them in a show-room, at home they could sound quite different.
It was not my intention to preachify or put on airs. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Feel free to contact me if you think I can be of any help and good luck.

Hearing the 22L's in my room is certainly the only sure way of knowing if they'll work for me.One common thing I hear when people talk about these speakers is that they're very sensitive to room placement.Since that is one condition I can't really change I'm concerned about this.I don't think it will be that difficult to find a more neutral speaker than the B&W 703's.The trick of course is to find one that will tolerate my less than ideal room conditions like my previous Proac Stand speakers did.People seem to either love or hate the B&W 700 series.I have found them to be revealing to a fault.The FST midrange which is considered one of this speakers strength's is too out front in my room especially in regard to vocals with considerable listener fatigue.The alloy tweeter's are actually quite smooth for a metal dome and I don't think they're the problem.My mistake was I had been listening to the CNT-9 for quite some time and was ready to buy it when B&W announced the 700 series was coming out.I held off and eventually bought the 703's which replaced the CNT-9.I did audition them but obviously not enough or I would have realized how much brighter they are compared to the CNT-9's.I think I got too caught up in the press regarding the 700 series and all the technical improvements they made when designing this series.The 703's can sound stunning when all conditions are ideal, but when they're not they punish you for it as much as any speaker I've ever heard.I'm actually looking forward to going back to a 2 or 2-1/2 way design as I think sometimes less can certainly be more when talking about drivers.I also have a preference for soft-dome tweeters and the 22L's do use that type of material which I thought was a plus.Thanks for the reply and enjoy your Quad's.

[BillyB]

Hi, BillyB,

Man, setting up a pleasing audio system is a tough job.
I have a pair of 22Ls. I think I can tell you something that could be of interest.
My room: L= 28.8', W=19,8', H=12,4', no accoustic treatment as yet.
I bought my Quads some 30 months ago. They have good bass extension, play well for my taste, are decent little tower loudspeakers and I don't think of a change.
At first, getting the power and ground from ordinary wall outlets, I hooked them just to my Rotel RB-1080 amplifier and Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 cd player using interconnect/speaker cables more expensive than the Audioquests I have now and, after finding the best location for them in my room, they sounded nicely. The problem was the huge increase in volume - the cd player first volume steps were extremely steep. Instead of lowering the cd player voltage output (required some soldering), I decided to buy a preamp.
While searching for it I built a dedicated power line and ground for the system and ordered Audioquest Coral/CQ interconnects and GBC bi-wire loudspeaker cables to HCM Audio (www.hcmaudio.com).
A tube preamp was built for me here in Brazil by an Engineer who had lived and worked for some time in the USA. With the new preamp and new cables the Quads sounded differently. Not a radical change but a feeling of smooth involvement and I could hear some details that weren't there before. I pulled off the preamp (it was not possible that the cables could make any difference) and used the old configuration with the new cables: the velvety and more focused sound was still there.
I reported the fact to the preamp builder. He told me that adding a tube amp to the new configuration would bring the system to a even higher quality degree. I ordered his 25 Watt Class A Triode. With the Triode the Quads seemed to sound slim, flimsy.
Crestfallen, I told the builder that his tube amp wasn't good, the 200 Watt per channel RB-1080 was the one with guts, was trully dynamic, his amp was a poor underdog. I was intoxicated by the solid state sound, he said: as junk food it has too much stuffing and few nutrients. He asked me to go on hearing the tubes and assured that after a while I would start to value their delicacy, subtleness and true wide range. So I did. Now I use the solid state amp only for rock. Jazz, chorinho, bossa nova, classical I play with the tubes. Now I want to add a subwoofer to the system. With the Sub the amp will be relieved from the low frequencies and will help the Quads yield their best.
Oh, I went astray. Let's go back to the 22Ls.
Don't buy them in a hurry. I told you my personal experience. Each case is unique. You have to take into consideration (forgive the tautology) your listening environment, speaker placement, the equipment placed before the 22Ls and your own ears which are different from everybody else's. I think you should try them at home for some time before filling the check. Remember, if you hear them in a show-room, at home they could sound quite different.
It was not my intention to preachify or put on airs. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Feel free to contact me if you think I can be of any help and good luck.

Just wanted to also say my Rotel amp is a 12 year old 120 watt per channel amp that was and probably still is considered a very worthy component.My pre-amp is the Rotel RC-1090 which is 2 years old and also supposed to be a very capable performer.The Arcam 73T CDP is generally considered a laid-back player and I was praying it would be the finishing touch on my system and tone down the 703's.I've also upgraded the interconnects to cables that are considered very neutral and spent a nice buck on 4 wire speaker cables to bi-wire the 703's without much improvement.I've placed posts about my disappointment with my system in the past here and some very knowledgable folks here had already told me the B&W's would have to go.It's just taken me 2-1/2 years to come to grips with this 3K mistake.Now that I'm committed to replacing them I'm actually excited about finding the right speakers for my system.I've spent as much money as my budget allows for to date so that's why I'm thinking If I can get around $1,500 for my 703's my budget for new speakers is that same $1,500.They claim that B&W speakers have decent resale value so we'll see.I've heard audiogon would be the right place to sell them.I actually have a very good relationship with my audio dealer and he told me he's open to a trade-in.We haven't discussed the bottom line of how much trade-in value he'd give me as I was just feeling him out on the possibility.The obvious disadvantage is I would be limited to the speaker lines he carries only.He does have some nice stuff including the Quad line(but no 22L demos) so I'm considering going this route.I'm hoping the fact that he's going to make a nice profit on the new speaker sale will factor into my trade-in value for the 703's.He's very aware of my unhappiness with the B&W's and I think he may actually be somewhat fair with me.I don't even care anymore about the $1,500 loss I'm taking as that pales in comparison to not wanting to listen to your system.

[Hifitruth]

Have you purchased the 22Ls yet? Let me know, and I can help you to find a great place to get them. I fell in Love with them as well when I heard them and I recommend them to everyone I can. There are places where they can be found at great deals from very good shops with excellent reputations.

Good luck!

[Dusty Chalk]

Does anyone have any experience with these speakers and a Manley Stingray? I'm thinking it might be a good match.
I bought my Quads some 30 months ago. They have good bass extension, play well for my taste, are decent little tower loudspeakers and I don't think of a change...Now I want to add a subwoofer to the system. With the Sub the amp will be relieved from the low frequencies and will help the Quads yield their best.Hi, I was wondering if you could expand on this, please. What, specifically, do you hope to accomplish by adding a sub to the setup?

[J C]

Hi, I was wondering if you could expand on this, please. What, specifically, do you hope to accomplish by adding a sub to the setup?

Hi, Peter!

Let’s see if I can expand on the subject, but I must warn you that I’m not a native English speaker, so I’m prone to express myself in a weird way.
For most of my listening I use a tube preamp and a tube amp, as I told BillyB.
I had them custom made by a craftsman who lives in the beautiful Minas Gerais State, whose job is well regarded among some audiophiles around there.
My tube amp is a 22 Watt triode class A, not a very powerful device (some people say the least powerful the amp, the best it plays and I believe it *).
The preamp has two pairs of RCA outputs, labeled “|=|amp1” and “amp2”.
“amp2” is a normal, standard output.
“|=|amp1” has a capacitor which attenuates the frequencies below 130 Hz in 6 dB/octave.
I’ve been using the “amp2” output to connect my amp, and play my pair of 22L Quads in “full”. That is to say that the amp has to pump ALL the frequencies to the speakers – you know that the low frequencies represent a hard job for the amp, right?
Well, if I had a powered Subwoofer I’d connect it to “amp2” and would plug the tube amp into the “|=|amp1”. As a result, my Quads would receive all the frequencies above 130 Hz as they are and those below 130 Hz attenuated. The tube amp would be relieved because it would have to amplify only some of the low frequencies, with the hard job transferred to the SW amplifier.
According to Mr Pereira, the craftsman, having a single amplifier reproducing all the frequencies, with the audio signal loaded with a great deal of low frequencies, it’s sure that you will get distortion, not a pure reproduction. He calls the phenomenon “intermodulation distortion” , I presume, which incites a feeling of “gurgle” or “trembling” when the high frequency sounds are heard. He warns: “ this circumstance has been responsible for unnecessary changes of speakers, amplifiers and other components of sound set-ups. When we promote the separation of the audible ‘spectrum’ into two ‘strips’, lets say,
from 20 to 100 Hz (for the Subwoofer) and from 100 to 20,000 Hz (for the satellites) we get a more limpid, softer, supple sound. The satellite amp, which can now be smaller in number of Watts, will perform like a little giant, a true macho thing.”

* It depends on the loudspeakers sensibility, of course. A hard load to drive requires a powerful amp.

[J C]

Ah, Peter!

I forgot to mention that you have to select a high quality subwoofer for a 2-channel biamplification, otherwise you will get crap.
I think the Paradigm Servo 15 or a Velodyne Digital Drive Series would be good choices. It's a pity they are so expensive. Besides, the import duties here are beastly high. I envy your living in an audio equipment paradise.

[Dusty Chalk]

Let’s see if I can expand on the subject, but I must warn you that I’m not a native English speaker, so I’m prone to express myself in a weird way....then I wish everyone was not a native English speaker, because it seems you try harder to express yourself as a result, rather than the usual "it rocks"/"it sucks" dichotomy.

Thanks for the explanation -- that makes sense. You like your current amp, but just to get every ounce of performance out of it that you can, you would like to relieve it of the one area that would produce the most relief -- low frequencies.

Makes sense to me. In my case, I'm hoping that my amp is powerful enough, going to go and try to hear these speakers myself this weekend or next.

[J C]

Thanks for the explanation . Makes sense to me. In my case, I'm hoping that my amp is powerful enough, going to go and try to hear these speakers myself this weekend or next.

So, you've got Dynaudio Specials, Creek as preamp, Musical Fidelity 600W/ch-4 ohms. You shoot directly to the bull's eye, eh, and are going to hear something else? Just for curiosity, I think ?:wink5:
Are you a headdphones enthusiast? ... Sennheiser HD600; Beyer DT770; Audio Technica W2002; Grado HP-2.
I've got a Philips SBC HP1000 connected to the audio output of my TV satellite dish. And an Etymotic ER4-S I use with a discman to walk the dogs.
Next, I'd like to buy a headphone amplifier. I hope to order a good one. Could I hear from you about headphones and headphone amplifiers? Have you had any experience with the Cayin HA-1A or CIAudio VHP.1? And the AKG K701, how do you compare it to the Beyer? And the Beyer to the Sennheiser?
Again, about 2-ch biamplification using a subwoofer : my audio guru, Mr Pereira, says simply adding passive high-pass filters at the input of one's amplifier won't do the trick.You will hear the subwoofer working. And for just adding a capacitor to the preamp output to the subwoofer, one has to know what he is doing. The subwoofer has to 'disappear' in a biamplification. It is heard as separate entity when the job is not perfectly done.

[Dusty Chalk]

So, you've got Dynaudio Specials, Creek as preamp, Musical Fidelity 600W/ch-4 ohms. You shoot directly to the bull's eye, eh, and are going to hear something else? Just for curiosity, I think ?Oops, I should update my profile, some of that is out-of-date. Still have the Dynaudio Special 25's, seriously thinking about getting rid of them. They're superior in full-range response, but I recently acquired a pair of Quad 12L Pro Active's, and the midrange is to die for. Immediately made me realize that the Dynaudios are less forward in the midrange. That's why I'm seriously considering the 22L's. But I'm giving the Dynaudios one more chance. I had to get rid of the MF amp (which may have been a mistake, but I never had a preamp to match it), but I recently obtained a very nice, old, powerful, Pioneer receiver. Will see what a couple hundred of 70's stylin' watts'll do. I have since most likely talked myself out of giving up the Danes (25-year warranty, non-transferable? I don't think I want to give that up). L, I may end up with both systems. The Pioneer receiver/Dynaudio Special 25's == system #1; Manley Stingray/Quad 22L == system #2.

On headphone amps -- groan I love headphones. But we shouldn't threadcrap -- feel free to start a thread over in portable audio (that's where most of the headphone discussion goes on), I'll respond over there.

[BillyB]

Have you purchased the 22Ls yet? Let me know, and I can help you to find a great place to get them. I fell in Love with them as well when I heard them and I recommend them to everyone I can. There are places where they can be found at great deals from very good shops with excellent reputations.

Good luck!
I'm waiting for my 22L's in Birdseye Maple as we speak.I was so anxious to get rid of my B&W 703's that I literally dropped them off at my audio dealer and said call me when the Quads come in.He couldn't believe I didn't care about having no stereo during the interim.I haven't enjoyed my system since the day I set up the 703's in my house 3 years ago so dropping them off was a very happy day for me.They sounded excruciating in my listening room and while people keep telling me my room acoustics must be terrible my previous Proac stand speakers sounded just fine in the exact same location.I'm looking to get back to that more neutral type of sound and the 22L's should be a step in the right direction as I made other upgrades as well and should have a good system put together.As I mentioned in my thread I heard the 22L's at a friends and was floored at their sound and build quality.They have that certain something that is oblivious to price range.I could care less that their made in China as that seems to be the main reason they can make a speaker that looks and sounds this good for $1600 retail.I don't want to sound like I'm getting ahead of myself here as the only thing that matters is how they sound in my system and that will be determined very shortly.I'm just very optimistic based on the time I spent listening to them on equipment that was of equal or slightly inferior quality to my Rotel and Arcam components.I will certainly post after I get them and of course they will require a lengthy burn-in to hit their sweet spot.

[BillyB]

Hi, Peter!

Let’s see if I can expand on the subject, but I must warn you that I’m not a native English speaker, so I’m prone to express myself in a weird way.
For most of my listening I use a tube preamp and a tube amp, as I told BillyB.
I had them custom made by a craftsman who lives in the beautiful Minas Gerais State, whose job is well regarded among some audiophiles around there.
My tube amp is a 22 Watt triode class A, not a very powerful device (some people say the least powerful the amp, the best it plays and I believe it *).
The preamp has two pairs of RCA outputs, labeled “|=|amp1” and “amp2”.
“amp2” is a normal, standard output.
“|=|amp1” has a capacitor which attenuates the frequencies below 130 Hz in 6 dB/octave.
I’ve been using the “amp2” output to connect my amp, and play my pair of 22L Quads in “full”. That is to say that the amp has to pump ALL the frequencies to the speakers – you know that the low frequencies represent a hard job for the amp, right?
Well, if I had a powered Subwoofer I’d connect it to “amp2” and would plug the tube amp into the “|=|amp1”. As a result, my Quads would receive all the frequencies above 130 Hz as they are and those below 130 Hz attenuated. The tube amp would be relieved because it would have to amplify only some of the low frequencies, with the hard job transferred to the SW amplifier.
According to Mr Pereira, the craftsman, having a single amplifier reproducing all the frequencies, with the audio signal loaded with a great deal of low frequencies, it’s sure that you will get distortion, not a pure reproduction. He calls the phenomenon “intermodulation distortion” , I presume, which incites a feeling of “gurgle” or “trembling” when the high frequency sounds are heard. He warns: “ this circumstance has been responsible for unnecessary changes of speakers, amplifiers and other components of sound set-ups. When we promote the separation of the audible ‘spectrum’ into two ‘strips’, lets say,
from 20 to 100 Hz (for the Subwoofer) and from 100 to 20,000 Hz (for the satellites) we get a more limpid, softer, supple sound. The satellite amp, which can now be smaller in number of Watts, will perform like a little giant, a true macho thing.”

* It depends on the loudspeakers sensibility, of course. A hard load to drive requires a powerful amp.
I will be driving the 22L's with a Rotel 120 Watts per channel amp and would imagine it will be up to the task.My room is large which swayed me towards the 22L vs the 21L even though some reviewers thought the 21L might be the best of the L series.I liked the idea of 2 6.5 drivers vs 1 as I like to play my music fairly loud and also assumed the bass would be a little fuller.We will see.

[music_man]

Great speakers. But, my 1970's Cerwin Vega with the orange grill cloth still blows most speakers away, including ML, Wilson, Apogee, Thiels, etc.