GI's found beheaded in Iraq

[JoeE SP9]

I think, for every GI captured tortured and beheaded in Iraq we should line up ten suspected Al Quada members and execute them immediately. The only questions is, "Is ten of them enough to make up for one GI?" Should we make it twenty of them for each GI?:cool:

[Resident Loser]

I think, for every GI captured tortured and beheaded in Iraq we should line up ten suspected Al Quada members and execute them immediately. The only questions is, "Is ten of them enough to make up for one GI?" Should we make it twenty of them for each GI?:cool:

...that sort of behavior reduces us to their level...that's the PC answer.

My own non-PC feelings: Everybody b!tches and moans about the supposed maltreatment of the detainees down in Gitmo and then we have GIs in Iraq charged with murder...eeF 'em all, kill 'em all...let God sort 'em out. It's a friggin' war and an unconventional one at that...they ain't adhering to the Geneva Conventions...why should we? The only thing these d@maned jihadists understand is death and violence, I say give them their fill and then some...start targeting some high priority sites and individuals...

jimHJJ(...Gen. Sherman knew the way...)

[JoeE SP9]

Your suggestion isn't all that different than mine. Merely take ten from a high priority site. Execute them immediately.:idea:

[noddin0ff]

And I'm sure some where in the world someone is thinking, "for every child they bomb we should line up 10 of their children and blow the **** out of them..."

Not that it justifies anything.

Anyone that tortures another human should be punished, severely. Anybody who fails to recognize the value of the life of another doesn't deserve their own.

[JoeE SP9]

I don't advocate torture. I advocate execution. I'm against torture of any type or kind.:cool:

[noddin0ff]

I don't advocate torture. I advocate execution. I'm against torture of any type or kind.:cool:
Ah, well in that case, my misunderstanding. Carry on!

[shokhead]

Different kind of war,torture if needed,hang'em when we are done and keep the fricken ties out of it and let ort men and women do there job and get this crap done with. We play my rules when nobody else does,screw that and if it lowers us to there level,so be it. See how they like the taste.

[JoeE SP9]

Those wackos want to be tortured and they want it publicized. I say do neither. Execute them burn the bodies and keep their names secret. The last thing they want is an anonymous death.:cool:

[ForeverAutumn]

I think, for every GI captured tortured and beheaded in Iraq we should line up ten suspected Al Quada members and execute them immediately. The only questions is, "Is ten of them enough to make up for one GI?" Should we make it twenty of them for each GI?:cool:

Ah, see, the problem with your statement is the word "suspected". I'm with you if we're getting rid of the guys that we know are involved.

The problem with these lunatics is that dying is a good thing. It makes them martyrs. How do you win a fight with someone who has nothing to lose?

[shokhead]

Strip them naked walking a dog and put it in there paper.
BTW,they were not just beheaded but so much like hamburger they have to do dna tests to make sure its them.

[GMichael]

It burns the piss out of me that they treat our GI's this way and it's OK. But if we were to make them look at a female without a veil, or make them listen to rock-n-roll then we become Satin's hands.
Part of me says that we can't sink to their level. Another part of me says to blow them all to h.ll.

Frustration: This is the byproduct caused when the thinking part of your mind stops your ID from kicking the living sh.t out of some idiot that desperately needs it.

[ForeverAutumn]

Part of me says that we can't sink to their level. Another part of me says to blow them all to h.ll.

Frustration: This is the byproduct caused when the thinking part of your mind stops your ID from kicking the living sh.t out of some idiot that desperately needs it.

See, the problem here is that we value human life and they don't give a rat's ass. We need to stop thinking about them as human and treat them like the animals that they are. We put a dog down when it attacks someone.....

[JoeE SP9]

They want to be martyrs. The solution is to execute them, burn the bodies and never release the names or identities. A good ratio would be ten of them for every American soldier.:cool:

[GMichael]

And the world will view us as the evil empire. H.ll, they already do. They torture our GI's & cut their heads off. We make one take his cloths off. We are worse? Bunk!

[shokhead]

They want to be martyrs. The solution is to execute them, burn the bodies and never release the names or identities. A good ratio would be ten of them for every American soldier.:cool:

The ACLU and some other goody goods wouldnt stand for it.

[GMichael]

How about if we force them to shave, shower, brush their hair & teeth, and eat all their vegies? Or would that be too cruel?

[Fergymunster]

During the course of a war everyone involved is reduced to an animal like state.IMHO.

[ForeverAutumn]

During the course of a war everyone involved is reduced to an animal like state.IMHO.

I can't disagree with you there. That's why the world should be run by women. We'd just slap and kick each other and storm away mad. Then the next day, we'd get together for lunch, have a little cry, hug and everything would be fine. No beheadings...it just messes up our hair.

[Fergymunster]

I can't disagree with you there. That's why the world should be run by women. We'd just slap and kick each other and storm away mad. Then the next day, we'd get together for lunch, have a little cry, hug and everything would be fine. No beheadings...it just messes up our hair.
I tend to agree.Where fighting our own unique wars here at home.Which is worse,only time will tell.

[JoeE SP9]

The ACLU and some other goody goods wouldnt stand for it.
Let those goody goods go over there and fight the war themselves. It is always those who won't stand up for anything who are the first and loudest to protest American injustice.:cool:

[Florian]

We have a phrase that i think fits nicely.

"The way it is shouted in the forest, is the way it is returned"

[noddin0ff]

Let those goody goods go over there and fight the war themselves. It is always those who won't stand up for anything who are the first and loudest to protest American injustice.:cool:

Serving your country and protesting it's actions are not mutually exclusive. If called I would lay aside my personal beliefs and serve at the will of the President. However, that wouldn't stop me from thinking that Bush was an idiot to go into Iraq, he was an idiot going in to Iraq, and he is still an idiot the way he is going about staying in Iraq. He was doubly an idiot for not finishing the job in Afghanistan with Bin Laden. And triply and idiot for pronouncing 'Mission Accomplished' for some nice political photo op. I could never be ashamed to be an American, but Bush has brought me very close. Kerry on the otherhand is an idiot in thinking it's in our best interest to get out on a timetable. Our troops all deserve medals for serving so honorably under such a bunch of yahoos.

'We' are not animals and neither are 'They'. Jihadists are no different from any other aggressor that blindly serves an ideology. Most of 'Them' were children brought up in a closed society with no frame of reference to the modern world. They are not particularly well educated, and have been brought up on a diet of Martydom and twisted views of the Koran. They've been seduced by promises of Pride and Glory, National Identity, Spiritual reward, whatever. They’ve been told that Americans are the devil, that we’re not human, that God wants us dead, whatever. They value life just, just not ours. Let’s not stoop to that level.

Have some pride. Preserve some dignity. Fight with Honor. Try to behave like the Americans we’re supposed to be. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and Don’t Tread on Me.

God, I sound almost as bad as JOEBIALEK.

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[Fergymunster]

I'm wondering about North Korea.Should'nt somone go over there and talk to them.I mean they have a missle now that could reach the USA.They also have been isolated for quite some time and therefore in my oipiion are somewhat paranoid.

[Florian]

Have some pride. Preserve some dignity. Fight with Honor. Try to behave like the Americans we’re supposed to be. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and Don’t Tread on Me.

If you turn it into this, then i fully agree

Have some pride. Preserve some dignity. Life with Honor. Try to behave like the Humans we’re supposed to be. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and Don’t Tread on Me.

:-) There is no generalisation of humans, and i believe that every culture is unique and neither is superior. We all have different strength and weaknesses and we need to work together.

[Florian]

I'm wondering about North Korea.Should'nt somone go over there and talk to them.I mean they have a missle now that could reach the USA.They also have been isolated for quite some time and therefore in my oipiion are somewhat paranoid.

What about the weapons of the USA that could reach much more then just Canada ;-) ?
I agree that NK is a hot topic, but violence against violance never brings a peaceful solution.

[shokhead]

I'm wondering about North Korea.Should'nt somone go over there and talk to them.I mean they have a missle now that could reach the USA.They also have been isolated for quite some time and therefore in my oipiion are somewhat paranoid.

If they are foolish enough to try it, then there wont be a NK left after we use what we have and they know it. I dont belive they are paranoid,they are playing the game.

[shokhead]

Serving your country and protesting it's actions are not mutually exclusive. If called I would lay aside my personal beliefs and serve at the will of the President. However, that wouldn't stop me from thinking that Bush was an idiot to go into Iraq, he was an idiot going in to Iraq, and he is still an idiot the way he is going about staying in Iraq. He was doubly an idiot for not finishing the job in Afghanistan with Bin Laden. And triply and idiot for pronouncing 'Mission Accomplished' for some nice political photo op. I could never be ashamed to be an American, but Bush has brought me very close. Kerry on the otherhand is an idiot in thinking it's in our best interest to get out on a timetable. Our troops all deserve medals for serving so honorably under such a bunch of yahoos.

'We' are not animals and neither are 'They'. Jihadists are no different from any other aggressor that blindly serves an ideology. Most of 'Them' were children brought up in a closed society with no frame of reference to the modern world. They are not particularly well educated, and have been brought up on a diet of Martydom and twisted views of the Koran. They've been seduced by promises of Pride and Glory, National Identity, Spiritual reward, whatever. They’ve been told that Americans are the devil, that we’re not human, that God wants us dead, whatever. They value life just, just not ours. Let’s not stoop to that level.

Have some pride. Preserve some dignity. Fight with Honor. Try to behave like the Americans we’re supposed to be. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and Don’t Tread on Me.

God, I sound almost as bad as JOEBIALEK.

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

It looks like animals did something to the 2 that were beheaded and left like hamburger.

[noddin0ff]

Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.

[Fergymunster]

Look,I'm just your average US citizen.I'm only capable of one vote.

[shokhead]

Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.
Animals do all of that and dont make any points,they just kill.

[GMichael]

The question is, how do you kill an idea? How do you teach people the truth when they've already been taught not to listen?

[markw]

Look,I'm just your average US citizen.I'm only capable of one vote.You would not be able to say that if you' were a Democrat in New Jersey, where their motto is "Vote Early, Vote Often"

[noddin0ff]

Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

Wait a few generations.

[GMichael]

Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

Wait a few generations.

The idea I would like to kill is that all Americans are the devil.

[JoeE SP9]

Depends on the 'idea' you want to kill and what you consider 'truth'. If truth is to accept Christian ideals and occupation...well...you don't go into an islamic country that is jittery about foreign occupation talking about 'Crusades' and offering homilies and jargon lifted from movie Westerns.

Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

Wait a few generations.

What you suggest is impossible. Their Islamic culture has no respect for anything but Islam. They don't want an educational system. They don't believe in womens rights. What they want is what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. They can't get along with each other. They are fighting over who is the successor to Muhammad. Most radical Muslims are pissed of that Islam is not the dominant culture in the world.:cool:

[noddin0ff]

What you suggest is impossible. Their Islamic culture has no respect for anything but Islam. They don't want an educational system. They don't believe in womens rights. What they want is what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. They can't get along with each other. They are fighting over who is the successor to Muhammad. Most radical Muslims are pissed of that Islam is not the dominant culture in the world.:cool:

One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.

[Florian]

I think noddinOff is on the exact same page as me. Now that is a first in this forum!

[noddin0ff]

I knew you could come around!

[bobsticks]

Patience. Raise their standard of living. Accept their culture. Show respect. Get the electical and water systems you destroyed working again. Make it safe. Get them media access. Get them an education system so they can have jobs and compete in the world. Help them develop laws that work even if they aren't exactly like our own. Push for women's rights.

Wait a few generations.

It's not that easy. One cannot both "push for women's rights" and "respect their culture" as the the concepts stand in opposition. Providing an educational system does little good when the environment in which they live lacks the most basic technological infrastructure and manufacturing apparatus. It would be terribly complex in a liberal, non-homogeneous society with sufficient ways and means (like ours), and most impractical in societies otherwise.
We have spent so much time in our workplaces, our schools, and in our media furthering the concept of tolerence of "other cultures". Tacit in this is the expectation that the "other cultures" will express the same civility and regard for human life and wellbeing as we do.
It is an assault on our liberal sensibilities to find that there are those that will be assuaged by nothing short of our annihilation.
From where do these extremists arise and who funds the madrasahs of indoctrination? The royal families and the oil barons and those that we have funded/supported/armed for the last fifty years. The motivation? Well, if you and your family and a few members of a selected caste owned 99.9% of your country's wealth with the rest of the population living in abject and hopeless squalor, you too might wish to refocus their rage. ( I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you ).

Wait a few generations? With an impending Iranian bomb I'm just hoping to make it that long...

[Fergymunster]

You would not be able to say that if you' were a Democrat in New Jersey, where their motto is "Vote Early, Vote Often"
That's a good question,who's running this country

[shokhead]

One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.

I'm sure they will change. BTW,why is it so many want us dead?

[ForeverAutumn]

It looks like animals did something to the 2 that were beheaded and left like hamburger.
Animals don't kill, brutalize, and maim to make a political point.

You're right. They do it instinctively. It's an inate part of their nature and they can't help it. It's not a choice.

Now humans, on the other hand, have the ability to think and reason. It's what separates us from many of the other animals. We have the ability to make a choice. They chose to kill those soldiers. Not only did whoever did this choose to kill, but they went out of their way to torture first. You know, I think that I could accept a nice clean killing, it is war after all and the rules are not the same as peaceful civilian life. These soldiers are their enemy. But the torture makes these dirtbags worse than animals. It's one thing to rid yourself of your enemies. It's quite another to have the mental capacity to watch them suffer.

[ForeverAutumn]

What about the weapons of the USA that could reach much more then just Canada ;-) ?


Hey, leave us out of this. We already have a Prime Minister who thinks that Canada should be the next State to join the Union.



:-) There is no generalisation of humans, and i believe that every culture is unique and neither is superior. We all have different strength and weaknesses and we need to work together.

Ah, now if only everyone thought this way...the world wouldn't be in the mess it's in. :)

[JoeE SP9]

One could possibly make a compelling analogy with the far Christian right...

Impossible is silly. Nothing about society is permanent.

The ‘they’ you refer to is the ‘they’ you perceive them to be based on stereotypes that you have been taught. I don’t doubt that ‘they’ have problems in their society. But they do want education. Unfortunately the only organizations teaching the poor how to read and write are the religious groups, some of which have militant agendas. But if you’re poor and have no future, and are given the choice of no education or a theocratic one, which would you choose?

Islamic culture used to be one of the more educated and open cultures of the world. I'm no scholar but my understanding is that Islam is a religion that actually emphasizes tolerance. I think the Christian crusades changed that a bit. As a young nation, we don't have long cultural memories and don't really appreciate them and their effects on societies. They do remember.

Yes, women don’t have equal rights and that is something that can be changed with time and pressure. It’s only been 140 years since we were legally enslaving people in this country. And women have only been granted the right to vote for the last 86 years. Islamic nations have had more female Presidents than the US has had.

The Taliban brought, law and order and stability. That's what moderates everywhere want. They’d like law order and stability again. Our job should be to see that they don’t have to get it from Islamic extremists. But who are they going to trust? The enemy they know or the enemy they don’t.

Anyway, brutalizing soldiers is barbaric. It takes a sub-human, wacked out person to do that. But, no civilization/culture has a monopoly on barbarism. The solution isn’t to go out and destroy the ‘Them’ the solution is to make life better so the ‘Them’ don’t form in the first place.
The Taliban brought law and order but at what price. Where else can you be sentenced to death for converting to a different religion? Where else were women refused the right to any kind of education? Where else where statues and pictures defaced and/or destroyed? Women not only don't have equal rights they are not considered fully human under strict Islamic thought. They are considered property and nothing more. Remember in Islam there can be no seperation of church and state. Lets be honest and realize and admit that the ultimate aim of Islam is the end of all secular rule and the end of all other religions.:cool:

[noddin0ff]

Again, I'm no scholar, but European Monarchies were a Christian example of the union of Church and State- many wars were conducted on the basis of religious hatred. The Inquisition was a period where 'heretics' were condemned to death or worse. Iraq was a secularly governed Islamic society under Hussien. I suppose Egypt and Turkey are other examples. The US managed to separate church and state, but it's quite clear that our own Christian far right would like to merge the two again. So, like I said, nothings permanent.

I think it's close-minded to expect a culture to transform overnight into the Western style democracy we miraculously managed to create under entirely different circumstances. I believe the Taliban stepped into the power void left by an invading USSR tried to occupy the country. Culturally, Afghanistan from what I read was a beautiful, open, and progressive society and of the more pro-women’s rights Islamic nations. Just because extremist, fundamentalist groups are successful doesn’t mean that it was everyone’s first choice.

Let’s not label the whole of the Islamic world fundamental extremists and Jihadists. It just ain’t so, any more than we’re a nation of recovered addicts and born again Christians with Presidential aspirations.

[shokhead]

Again, I'm no scholar, but European Monarchies were a Christian example of the union of Church and State- many wars were conducted on the basis of religious hatred. The Inquisition was a period where 'heretics' were condemned to death or worse. Iraq was a secularly governed Islamic society under Hussien. I suppose Egypt and Turkey are other examples. The US managed to separate church and state, but it's quite clear that our own Christian far right would like to merge the two again. So, like I said, nothings permanent.

I think it's close-minded to expect a culture to transform overnight into the Western style democracy we miraculously managed to create under entirely different circumstances. I believe the Taliban stepped into the power void left by an invading USSR tried to occupy the country. Culturally, Afghanistan from what I read was a beautiful, open, and progressive society and of the more pro-women’s rights Islamic nations. Just because extremist, fundamentalist groups are successful doesn’t mean that it was everyone’s first choice.

Let’s not label the whole of the Islamic world fundamental extremists and Jihadists. It just ain’t so, any more than we’re a nation of recovered addicts and born again Christians with Presidential aspirations.


Your first paragraph,that all took place in a more uncilvilized time.

[ForeverAutumn]

The Taliban brought, law and order and stability.

You don't actually believe this do you?! Law, order and stability? What about Freedom? What about Justice? What about Basic Human Rights? You don't think that these things are important?

Laws are established by people in authority. If that Authority is corrupt, do you think that the laws they create will be in the interest of the People or the interest of the Authority? Just because something is Law doesn't make it moral or right.



Where else were women refused the right to any kind of education?

Well, lots of places actually. The world is not friendly to women. Female circumcism is still performed. Women are sentenced to death and stoned for being raped by married men. Women have acid thrown in their faces for looking at a man who is not her husband. Women are sold as chattel and treated like slaves. Female babies are murdered while male babies are allowed to live.

The Taliban were/are not unique in their views of women. There are many countries in the world where women are treated just as poorly if not worse. But that's another thread for another day.

[GMichael]

The world is not friendly to women.

But I am...:ihih:

[noddin0ff]

You don't actually believe this do you?! Law, order and stability? What about Freedom? What about Justice? What about Basic Human Rights? You don't think that these things are important?

Here's a quick link I just found that says pretty much what my perception was.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html
I don't know who wrote it or why. Obviously, it didn't work out, as many choices don't. I do think those things are vitally important. And I think that on a global scale, promoting the rights of women is one of the primary tools we can use to modernize countries and promote stability. But we Americans tend to think we can just instill those values everywhere tomorrow.

This is probably due to our Declaration of Independence - "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." They seem self-evident to us because we grew up with it, it is our cultural dogma.

Well the problem is that these 'truths' really aren't 'self-evident'. They were relatively novel truths at the time. So first, you need the stability and infrastructure and quality of life that will allow you the liberty and capabilities to realize and uphold these 'self-evident' truths.

So yes, I do believe that. You can't go anywhere with a corrupt goverment. The Taliban was a less corrupt option. Unfortunately, a democratic-republic style government of checks and balances, doesn't just ride in on a white horse when ever people are in need.

[Feanor]

I think, for every GI captured tortured and beheaded in Iraq we should line up ten suspected Al Quada members and execute them immediately. The only questions is, "Is ten of them enough to make up for one GI?" Should we make it twenty of them for each GI?:cool:

It was an outrageious, revolting act. As for your suggestion, I ask what is your motivation? To limit the violence or get revenge?

As I recall, the Nazi killed 100 local people in occupied country for each German soldier or policeman killed there; it didn't stop or even slow down the resistances.

[noddin0ff]

Your first paragraph,that all took place in a more uncilvilized time.

Well, just because we have machine guns, submarines, and anthrax, no longer have to fight on with swords, and we have sanitation systems, and generally agree that the world is round, I wouldn't call us more civilized. We've had human civilizations for around 10,000 years. What makes you think we all of a sudden got more fundamentally civilized in the last 400. We're just cleaner, live longer, know more about the world, talk across greater distances, and can kill millions of people with a few strokes on a keyboard. But we're still basically the same creature we were 400 years ago. We're xenophobic, cling to our believes, get angry when someone disagrees, organize into hierarchies, take advantage of one another...

[shokhead]

Ask the non-whites if its the same here as 400 years ago.

[noddin0ff]

Well, if you mean African-Americans, the Slave trade to the Americas began about then and continued for a good 200+ years so yes, they're not slaves anymore so that's an improvement. But they still haven't achieved parity with whites so that would indicate to me we're not really all that civilized. True enough though that if ownership and traffic of humans is your measure, we are more civilized.

Just an aside, my first introduction to Islam (not that I have had much exposure) I got from reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X – as told to Alex Haley. As an ignorant white boy from redneck country, it was an eye opener. Malcolm had a lot of good thoughts and many of the Islamic values he believed in probably really could’ve benefited the black communities. I finished that book thinking that Malcolm could have been a great man, leader, role model if he’d been better understood…and if white Christian America was more tolerant and less xenophobic.

[noddin0ff]

Now I found it.


During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug) -- while praying to the same God -- with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions and in the deeds of the "white" Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.

We were truly all the same (brothers) -- because their belief in one God had removed the "white" from their minds, the 'white' from their behavior, and the 'white' from their attitude.

I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man -- and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their "differences" in color.

With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called "Christian" white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster -- the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.

They asked me what about the Hajj had impressed me the most. . . . I said, "The brotherhood! The people of all races, color, from all over the world coming to gether as one! It has proved to me the power of the One God. . . . All ate as one, and slept as one. Everything about the pilgrimage atmosphere accented the Oneness of Man under One God.

[shokhead]

I have no problems with illegal, er,.. undocumented, aliens per se, but I do draw the line at:

Free medical; Just say no. If citizens have to pay for it, why do they get a free ride?

Free schooling; Hey, our property taxes pay for that. Why should they get a free ride?

Multiple languages; My grreat grandparents took the time to learn the languavge andmade damn sure tmy grandparents spoke English. ... and they didn't have classes in their own language, either.

Anchor babies; So what if momma calves on American soil. That should not mean a free ride for mommy and daddy as well. Pack 'em up and ship 'em out. Drop 'em at the border and let that country south of us deal with it. And, see free medical for more on this.

as for the employers who exploit these, fine 'em up the arse. Make it too expensive for them to have illegals working for them. If they paid a living wage in hte first place, dollars to donuts they would not have a problem finding Americans to do the work.

But, the guys in the McMansions want a good price on their construction, nannies and landscapers. Heck, fine them too. Betcha they start making sure the people who work on their property are legal when it hits 'em in the wallet. MAybe they'll have to start living like the middle class again.

Social Sccurity checks ae small beans. Take everyone's fingerprints and match 'em through a national database. If these two don't match, well, lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

Free schooling yes but non-english speaking students in k-5th grade hold back english speaking students. Its a bad deal.

[ForeverAutumn]

Here's a quick link I just found that says pretty much what my perception was.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html
....Unfortunately, a democratic-republic style government of checks and balances, doesn't just ride in on a white horse when ever people are in need.

Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I wasn't aware of some the history. I have a better understanding of the point that you're making, but I still don't agree with you. The Taliban was one option that may have brought order to government. But that article certainly doesn't indicate stability. Just the opposite, the people became oppressed. The region became poorer. It's a Government's responsibilty to protect it's people. I don't see any indication of protection. Just the opposite in fact.

Look at all the Freedoms that were lost. You talk about how the only education system was one governed by religious groups. Why was that? Because the government wouldn't allow it to be any other way? It's an attitude of, "you're either with us or against us".

How many people were needlessly murdered by their own government because they were viewed as "not being with us"...for having different beliefs or a different level of belief. I don't care how you dish it out, it's just a blatant lack of valuing human life. You can't say that value isn't "self-evident".

The US was right to topple the Taliban. Aside from retaliation for 9/11. They took took down a government that was immoral. Something that should be done more often. If only the rest of the world were so brave.

[shokhead]

They dont need to be brave when they use us to do the dirty work. What was France doing 65 years ago?

[emaidel]

'We' are not animals and neither are 'They'.




Sorry, but I emphatically disagree. If we put women's panties on an Iraqi's head, or take pictures of them naked, we are condemned by the entire world for such "atrocities." On the other hand, if the Iraqi's behead innocent civilians (currently their favorite targets), film the beheading, and broadcast it to the entire world on the internet; if they burn GI's alive, and then drag their corpses behind a truck; or if they hang bodies of dead GI's from bridges for the townsfolk to sneer at and hit with their shoes; or if they routinely blow up mosques while civilians are inside praying, then, somehow, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and in particular, the media, that's OK. NO, it's NOT OK, thank you.

I think we are just too civil a people compared to the animals who call themselves Islamics, and distort the Koran to suit their own personal, sick agenda. They ARE animals, and deserve to be treated as such, but we'll never be able to do that, as the rest of the world would condemn us for such "barbaric" treatment, while the same from the Iraqi's goes on and on without anyone seeming to object. So far, there haven't been any reports of how American prisoners of war are treated in Iraqi prisons. Why is that so? Because they never make it alive to such a place!

And I fully agree that the ACLU should go to Iraq and solve all the problems over there. They'd last about 5 minutes (if that long).

[ForeverAutumn]

They dont need to be brave when they use us to do the dirty work. What was France doing 65 years ago?

That's what I mean. We shouldn't be relying on the US to do the dirty work. Canada abstained from fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our government chose, instead, to let other countries fight the war and we went in afterwards as peacekeepers. A decision that I disagreed with.

Although in our case, I think that decision had a lot less to do with bravery and a lot more to do with the fact that military spending is almost nil in Canada (and seems to get smaller with every budget) and we really have no military force to speak of.

We're ripe for invasion, come and get us.

[shokhead]

Canada's no wimp,just small.

[shokhead]

Sorry, but I emphatically disagree. If we put women's panties on an Iraqi's head, or take pictures of them naked, we are condemned by the entire world for such "atrocities." On the other hand, if the Iraqi's behead innocent civilians (currently their favorite targets), film the beheading, and broadcast it to the entire world on the internet; if they burn GI's alive, and then drag their corpses behind a truck; or if they hang bodies of dead GI's from bridges for the townsfolk to sneer at and hit with their shoes; or if they routinely blow up mosques while civilians are inside praying, then, somehow, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and in particular, the media, that's OK. NO, it's NOT OK, thank you.

I think we are just too civil a people compared to the animals who call themselves Islamics, and distort the Koran to suit their own personal, sick agenda. They ARE animals, and deserve to be treated as such, but we'll never be able to do that, as the rest of the world would condemn us for such "barbaric" treatment, while the same from the Iraqi's goes on and on without anyone seeming to object. So far, there haven't been any reports of how American prisoners of war are treated in Iraqi prisons. Why is that so? Because they never make it alive to such a place!

And I fully agree that the ACLU should go to Iraq and solve all the problems over there. They'd last about 5 minutes (if that long).

Hell i put panties on my head all the time,whats the big deal?

[noddin0ff]

Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I wasn't aware of some the history. I have a better understanding of the point that you're making, but I still don't agree with you. The Taliban was one option that may have brought order to government. But that article certainly doesn't indicate stability. Just the opposite, the people became oppressed. The region became poorer. It's a Government's responsibilty to protect it's people. I don't see any indication of protection. Just the opposite in fact.

Look at all the Freedoms that were lost. You talk about how the only education system was one governed by religious groups. Why was that? Because the government wouldn't allow it to be any other way? It's an attitude of, "you're either with us or against us".

How many people were needlessly murdered by their own government because they were viewed as "not being with us"...for having different beliefs or a different level of belief. I don't care how you dish it out, it's just a blatant lack of valuing human life. You can't say that value isn't "self-evident".

The US was right to topple the Taliban. Aside from retaliation for 9/11. They took took down a government that was immoral. Something that should be done more often. If only the rest of the world were so brave.

I agree. The article also corrected some of my misperceptions (if the article is accurate). We should have toppled the Taliban. We should have got the job done with the full force and attention of our armed forces. We should have got that country back up on its feet and help it become moderate, Islamic, and democratic. Instead Mr. Short-Attention-Span-Need-to-Be-A-War-President-to-Get-Reelected-Because-Domestic-Agenda-Is-Messed-Up-Bush went into a bigger war with insufficient cause, insufficient planning, insufficient wisdom, and insufficient MORAL LEADERSHIP.

He left the worlds best prepared, best trained, free-est military force in the world hanging exposed with out clear objectives. If we're going to send our kids to war. You damn well better lead them... or lead them better. And get the job done. Where is Bin Laden?

[Fergymunster]

I agree. The article also corrected some of my misperceptions (if the article is accurate). We should have toppled the Taliban. We should have got the job done with the full force and attention of our armed forces. We should have got that country back up on its feet and help it become moderate, Islamic, and democratic. Instead Mr. Short-Attention-Span-Need-to-Be-A-War-President-to-Get-Reelected-Because-Domestic-Agenda-Is-Messed-Up-Bush went into a bigger war with insufficient cause, insufficient planning, insufficient wisdom, and insufficient MORAL LEADERSHIP.

He left the worlds best prepared, best trained, free-est military force in the world hanging exposed with out clear objectives. If we're going to send our kids to war. You damn well better lead them... or lead them better. And get the job done. Where is Bin Laden?
I believe Bin Laden is hiding in a cave somewhere.With that said,do you think he really has any power anymore.

[noddin0ff]

He took down the Trade Center and 3000+ lives. It doesn't matter to me if he has any power anymore.

...but, yes, I do think he has power. Even if his power were only as an icon, I think that power needs to be dismantled. He needs to sit behind bars for the rest of his life.

[Fergymunster]

He took down the Trade Center and 3000+ lives. It doesn't matter to me if he has any power anymore.

...but, yes, I do think he has power. Even if his power were only as an icon, I think that power needs to be dismantled. He needs to sit behind bars for the rest of his life.
A cave is a good a place as any.

[markw]

A cave is a good a place as any.That condition being that all entrances to the cave are permanently sealed and preferably air tight.

[JoeE SP9]

If the US government really wants Bin Laden increase the reward to $500,000,000. I would bet someone would bring in his head on a pole in less than 10 days.:cornut:

[markw]

If the US government really wants Bin Laden increase the reward to $500,000,000. I would bet someone would bring in his head on a pole in less than 10 days.:cornut:They'll just probably subcontract Duane Chapman (Dog the Bounty Hunter) to do it, anyway.

[Fergymunster]

That condition being that all entrances to the cave are permanently sealed and preferably air tight.
I bet he's having shrimp on the barbe.

[JoeE SP9]

They'll just probably subcontract Duane Chapman (Dog the Bounty Hunter) to do it, anyway.

That's fine with me. Just offer the money and get it over with.:cool: