New Perspective

[Lowdef]

I am new to this site but have spent time reading some of the previous threads. I am amused that rather intelligent people can engage in such heated disscussions trying to disclaim one view over another when the topic (cables) is not that difficult to begin with. Unless you have a completly wireless system then cables are required to make it work whether you pay $5.00 for them or $500.00 it dosn't matter. It's what the individual prefers and people come to this forum to get info based on other members experiences with them. Now I do not have a degree, pretend to have a degree or plan on getting a degree so here are a few of my simple observations. 1) When it comes to music or the reproduction of, it's what you hear not what you know that matters. 2) Two ears and a love for music is all the credentials you need in this here hobby!

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich :)

[Rockwell]

Your perspective is "Trust your ears," which is old as dirt. It is good advice, if only people followed it. Most people use their eyes and mind at the same time as their ears, which has a way of influencing the results.

Why spend $500, when you can spend $5? You may never know that you only have to spend $5 by listening to your salesmen, buddy, or some people on the internet. You can get boths sides of the story here, and you have that much more knowlege to use making your decision.

[mtrycraft]

I am amused that rather intelligent people can engage in such heated disscussions trying to disclaim one view over another


Why would audio be any different from most any other consumer topic? Are you telling me that a web site about Atlantis is not heated? Or one on Creation?



when the topic (cables) is not that difficult to begin with.

You are right. Cables are rather simple in audio. Yet, some try to make them out to be some magic that needs to be applied.



Unless you have a completly wireless system then cables are required to make it work

An astute observation. :)


whether you pay $5.00 for them or $500.00 it dosn't matter.

If it doesn't matter to you, please send me that $495 then. It matters to me.




It's what the individual prefers

Yes, you are right again. Preference is just that and hard to argue it. However, if you really read all/most of th eposts, you will see postes go beyond preferences and make testable claims. That is what is challenged, not preferences. Actually, it is rare that posters state that they prefer this cable over that one.

and people come to this forum to get info based on other members experiences with them.

Ah, personal experiences. How can you rely on it if the experience is questionable, based on flawed observations? It is useless to others? How is audio experience any different from experience with a psychic, holistic healer, or with Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, etc? You mean I should rely on such experience?


1) When it comes to music or the reproduction of, it's what you hear not what you know that matters.

You think? Your knowledge about human perception doesn't matter? How so?

And, you really think audiophiles, most of them, really trust their ears alone? Of course not. They are too affraid to trust only their ears as they may not like what their ears are really telling them, then their egos, their belief system is up in smoke, perhaps.

2) Two ears and a love for music is all the credentials you need in this here hobby!


Why? You mean if you don't particularly like music you cannot participate in audio?

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich :)

and vica versa.

[bturk667]

Problem is that you don't always get both sides of the story here, at least not based on personal experience. How many meter readers, amd you know who you are, protest about cables, but have done no personal testing to back up their beliefs? Quite a few, in my opinion. So, if you or any one wants to listen to these ignorant people, by all means go right a head. I on the other hand will not!

[bturk667]

Alas lowdef, what you will find is that there are a number of meter readers on this site who don't think ears are good barometers for anything. What I can't for the life of me figure out is, how do they listen to music? Surely it can't be with the two appendages at the sides of their heads.

Oh yeah, I would be remiss lowdef if I didn't mention their montra, DBT! Three little letters that they live by. For without the almighty DBT, there would be no audio truths; only myths and audio Bull$****!

Have a nice day!

[mtrycraft]

Problem is that you don't always get both sides of the story here, at least not based on personal experience. How many meter readers, amd you know who you are, protest about cables, but have done no personal testing to back up their beliefs? Quite a few, in my opinion. So, if you or any one wants to listen to these ignorant people, by all means go right a head. I on the other hand will not!

It goes beyond beliefs for us. What can be demonstrated and repeated. Beliefs are for others.
And, we ask the questions of those who make extraordinary claims to demonstrate. Irrelevant what I do or don't do.

[mtrycraft]

Alas lowdef, what you will find is that there are a number of meter readers on this site who don't think ears are good barometers for anything.

Why do you distort and make things up? It is you who cannot or will not rely only on your ears and must use other confirming information to confuse your perceptions.




What I can't for the life of me figure out is, how do they listen to music?

I thought you were smarter than to ask this.

[Lowdef]

Your perspective is "Trust your ears," which is old as dirt. It is good advice, if only people followed it. Most people use their eyes and mind at the same time as their ears, which has a way of influencing the results.

Why spend $500, when you can spend $5? You may never know that you only have to spend $5 by listening to your salesmen, buddy, or some people on the internet. You can get boths sides of the story here, and you have that much more knowlege to use making your decision.

Thats the exact point I was making, but it is possible to use just your ears thats what their there for ( hearing), your eyes or nose will not process music for you so you have to trust your ears, there is no other way. As for spending money, I will only do so reluctantly and pay what I think is fair to myself regardless of what anyone else tells me. If I hear an improvement from something then I would evaluate if it is worthy of departing some of my hard earned cash for . Never rush into things!

[pctower]

[b] You think? Your knowledge about human perception doesn't matter? How so?

And, you really think audiophiles, most of them, really trust their ears alone? Of course not. They are too affraid to trust only their ears as they may not like what their ears are really telling them, then their egos, their belief system is up in smoke, perhaps.



Most audiophiles trust the pleasure center of their brains. That's what is important to them. Not the kind of stuff that often gets tossed around here as purported "knowledge".

In my 30 plus years in this hobby I don't ever recall meeting an audiophile who seemed to be "affraid" of anything having to do with the hobby. Moreover, few if any cared one hoot about "belief systems", be it theirs or others. They care about what brings them pleasure through the systems they put together and listen to.

Enjoyment and fun seems alien to many here. What most here seem to devote most of their energy to is discussing what can't be proved, while tossing in a good dose of test results produced from scientifically unreliable tests.

Few people on this board seem to have any grasp of this. I suspect most people here don't know many actual audiophiles, which is why absurd characterizations such as yours usually go unchallenged on this board.

[Lowdef]

Why? You mean if you don't particularly like music you cannot participate in audio?

Would there be a reason to if you didn't?


Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

[pctower]

Your perspective is "Trust your ears," which is old as dirt. It is good advice, if only people followed it. Most people use their eyes and mind at the same time as their ears, which has a way of influencing the results.

Why spend $500, when you can spend $5? You may never know that you only have to spend $5 by listening to your salesmen, buddy, or some people on the internet. You can get boths sides of the story here, and you have that much more knowlege to use making your decision.

It should really be "Trust your perceptions or experiences". Most audiophiles strive to improve the quality of their listening experiences. You and many others seem to resent that many of them place their subjective experiences and the pleasures they derive from them above your meters and DBTs.

"Why spend $500, when you can spend $5? " No, why spend $5 when you have $500 to spend and your subjective experience is improved with the $500 widget to a degree that could not be duplicated by spending $500 anywhere else. Audio is not about deprivation.

"You may never know that you only have to spend $5 by listening to your salesmen, buddy, or some people on the internet."

This of course is THE BIG LIE that this board is notorious for perpetuating. From what I have seen, most audiophiles try numerous cables and equipment before deciding on a synergistic combination that brings them the greatest pleasure. They care little what a salesman, their buddy or anonymous creatures on the net recommend.

But I understand why you and others love to paint those who go about the hobby differently than you in such judgmental terms - it makes you sound oh so learned and above it all.

[markw]

Most audiophiles trust the pleasure center of their brains. That's what is important to them.

The same could be said of those who practice Onanism. While it may feel good, it ain't reality.

[pctower]

The same could be said of those who practice Onanism. While it may feel good, it ain't reality.

What a priceless analogy. You and others devote your lives trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own sound room, and the religious right spend all their time trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own bedroom. And then there are those, perhaps, who want to control both.

[markw]

What a priceless analogy. You and others devote your lives trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own sound room, and the religious right spend all their time trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own bedroom. And then there are those, perhaps, who want to control both.

For all your sanctiminous ranting and raving, I do note a lack of rebuttal to the basic truth in my simple statement.

Sometimes, a blustery rant can overcome a lack of substance in an argument, or lack thereof.

[Monstrous Mike]

Thats the exact point I was making, but it is possible to use just your ears thats what their there for ( hearing), your eyes or nose will not process music for you so you have to trust your ears, there is no other way. As for spending money, I will only do so reluctantly and pay what I think is fair to myself regardless of what anyone else tells me. If I hear an improvement from something then I would evaluate if it is worthy of departing some of my hard earned cash for . Never rush into things!
<b>F.E. Toole and S.E. Olive, "Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing: Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests and Other Interesting Things", 97th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint No. 3894 (1994 Nov.)</b>

The reference above cites the effect of sighted audio listening. Essentially, what is claimed and shown is the a priori knowledge of what a person is listening to can and does affect the subjective assessment of the sound of that component, in this case speakers.

It is generally known that your ears are sensory organs but it is a process in the brain that must interpret or "percieve" the sounds that the ears are receiving. While there are not many solid scientific tests with regard to this phenomenon and audio music, it is widely known that when trying to process the information from one sensor (e.g. your ears), any knowledge or input from other sensors (e.g. your eyes or other existing or beliefs) can bias your perception.

That doesn't mean people who are evaluating audio equipment should scientifically test every component but it is something to keep in mind when you think you have heard something magical.

[Monstrous Mike]

What a priceless analogy. You and others devote your lives trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own sound room, and the religious right spend all their time trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own bedroom. And then there are those, perhaps, who want to control both.
What is with this theory of people trying to control your audio life? This is bordering on paranoia.

You know how to turn off your computer, don't you?

[pctower]

For all your sanctiminous ranting and raving, I do note a lack of rebuttal to the basic truth in my simple statement.

Sometimes, a blustery rant can overcome a lack of substance in an argument, or lack thereof.

No, Sir. There is no truth to rebut. The whole point (so to speak) is how it feels to the feeler, not whether it offends the dogma of someone who can't help but keep their friggin nose out of other people's business.

If I make a claim about something the validity of which can be tested objectively, then test away. But keep your sticky little fingers out of my own feelings and perceptions, thank you.

[Rockwell]

It should really be "Trust your perceptions or experiences". Most audiophiles strive to improve the quality of their listening experiences. You and many others seem to resent that many of them place their subjective experiences and the pleasures they derive from them above your meters and DBTs.

Perceptions can be wrong, and I want people to know that. You seem to feel that it is wrong to impart that information.


"Why spend $500, when you can spend $5? " No, why spend $5 when you have $500 to spend and your subjective experience is improved with the $500 widget to a degree that could not be duplicated by spending $500 anywhere else. Audio is not about deprivation.

That is not the situation for everyone.


"You may never know that you only have to spend $5 by listening to your salesmen, buddy, or some people on the internet."

This of course is THE BIG LIE that this board is notorious for perpetuating. From what I have seen, most audiophiles try numerous cables and equipment before deciding on a synergistic combination that brings them the greatest pleasure. They care little what a salesman, their buddy or anonymous creatures on the net recommend.

Why do you think they got the idea it is necessary to audition cables? Because their salesman, buddy, or some net person perpetuated the MYTH that cables have a sonic signature that must the evaluated. Also, why do people ask for recomendation on cables on message boards if they don't care? There would be no need for cable asylum and it's draconian rules if nobody cared and didn't rely on other's perceptions.



But I understand why you and others love to paint those who go about the hobby differently than you in such judgmental terms - it makes you sound oh so learned and above it all.
How judgmental, condescending and presumptuous. :rolleyes:

[Lowdef]

<b>F.E. Toole and S.E. Olive, "Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing: Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests and Other Interesting Things", 97th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint No. 3894 (1994 Nov.)</b>

The reference above cites the effect of sighted audio listening. Essentially, what is claimed and shown is the a priori knowledge of what a person is listening to can and does affect the subjective assessment of the sound of that component, in this case speakers.

It is generally known that your ears are sensory organs but it is a process in the brain that must interpret or "percieve" the sounds that the ears are receiving. While there are not many solid scientific tests with regard to this phenomenon and audio music, it is widely known that when trying to process the information from one sensor (e.g. your ears), any knowledge or input from other sensors (e.g. your eyes or other existing or beliefs) can bias your perception.

That doesn't mean people who are evaluating audio equipment should scientifically test every component but it is something to keep in mind when you think you have heard something magical.

So you are saying the human brain is fooled all the time when evaluating audio and is not capable of interpeting what one is really hearing. I'm sorry but I will give it( the brain) a little more credit than that. Would a computer be able to do a better job in this? If so then who built the computer? Natural instinct is something you are born with and hearing, if your kucky enough to have it is a great gift to be used in conjunction with the brain to help process the things that go on around you in every day life. And it can do a damn good job of it!

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

[FLZapped]

So you are saying the human brain is fooled all the time when evaluating audio and is not capable of interpeting what one is really hearing.

No, but we don't know when it is and when it isn't. And interpreting what it is hearing is exacltly what it does along with other inputs you receive from multiple sources.



Would a computer be able to do a better job in this?


From the standpoint that it has no free running biases, yes.


Natural instinct is something you are born with and hearing, if your kucky enough to have it is a great gift to be used in conjunction with the brain to help process the things that go on around you in every day life. And it can do a damn good job of it!


Yup, but the senses are easily fooled.....

See below:

http://members.fortunecity.com/flzapped/illusions.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/contributions/flinn/Illusions/ST/st.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/contributions/flinn/Illusions/ST/st.html

http://www.kyushu-id.ac.jp/~ynhome/ENG/Demo/illusions2nd.html

-Bruce

[Bill L]

Welcome to the forum, Lowdef ! It doesn't get any better than this ! Literally.

[Monstrous Mike]

So you are saying the human brain is fooled all the time when evaluating audio and is not capable of interpeting what one is really hearing. Rich
No, this is not what I am saying now nor is it what I said in my post.

What I said was that our perceptions, like hearing, <i>can</i> be fooled or biased from time to time. That is a hard and cold fact. So most people with common sense will acknowledge that fact and consider it when they are making a subjective evaluation using one of their senses.

If you always "trust your ears", then once in awhile you are going to waste some money on percieved improvements that just aren't there. I know I have over the years. If you haven't they you've either been extremely lucky or you just don't know it yet.

[sofsoldier]

It seems in audio today, the credentials needed to enjoy music are two ears and a love of music and a fat walet! That is if one believes the marketing strategy of the various equipment manufacturers.

There are always pro's and con's to anything audio. To name a few: style of music, live or recorded, digital or analog, compressed or uncompressed, vacuum tube versus solid state, to name a few. Some may offer graphs and specifications, some may refuse to regard specifications, and some require some type of a test to prove ones choice over another.

Basically, everyone has an opinion and everyone is right.......and everyone is wrong.

Forums like this do serve a purpose and I actually appreciate the "nay sayers" incessant tenacity to assist a would be buyer in making sure the correct decision is made. I mean, we are talking big money here and in my opinion, I want to know if something is as advertised. Most of us do not have the resources to purchase such an impressive list of brand names - and if you do, more power to you.

I have reached a point to where I have to say I have no clue if cables make a difference or not. I cannot offer proof if I notice a difference - other than objectivity which cannot be proved. Since I have reached that point, I am more concerned with functionality and price. Besides, I would much rather spend my money on music, not equipment.

[markw]

No, Sir. There is no truth to rebut. The whole point (so to speak) is how it feels to the feeler, not whether it offends the dogma of someone who can't help but keep their friggin nose out of other people's business.

If I make a claim about something the validity of which can be tested objectively, then test away. But keep your sticky little fingers out of my own feelings and perceptions, thank you.

Sorry 'bout that, chief.

[pctower]

Sorry 'bout that, chief.

Now don't you go getting all civil on me and make me look foolish and petty by comparison.

[Lowdef]

Guys my original post I left two simple observations. That being 1. you don't have to be overly intelligent and 2. as long as you can hear, you can take part in this hobby. There is nothing to challenge here, their both facts. But what I got for replies one would have thought they were visiting Philosophical Review not an audio forum . I'm sure there are other web sites to disscuss those views like the Big question Why Are We Here but I don't want to go there and would rather talk about peoples experience with cables which is what it says at the top of this page. ( Cable Forum ).

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

[Rockwell]

Guys my original post I left two simple observations. That being 1. you don't have to be overly intelligent and 2. as long as you can hear, you can take part in this hobby. There is nothing to challenge here, their both facts. But what I got for replies one would have thought they were visiting Philosophical Review not an audio forum . I'm sure there are other web sites to disscuss those views like the Big question Why Are We Here but I don't want to go there and would rather talk about peoples experience with cables which is what it says at the top of this page. ( Cable Forum ).

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

When you have something as tenuous as cable sonics, all you are left with is philosophy. If you think listening to cables is a worthwhile pursuit, then go for it.

[mtrycraft]

So you are saying the human brain is fooled all the time when evaluating audio

Maybe yes, maybe no. That is one of th eproblem that you have no idea when it is fooled and when it is not. You have no control over this. Have you ever asked someone to repeat something you heard only to be told nothing was said in th efirst place? How and why did your brain tell you to have it repeated? It was fooled.
Researchers in human senses and human reactions know all about human bias. Nothing new. Why do you think DBT is uses in the field of science and research?


and is not capable of interpeting what one is really hearing.


Or, over interpreting it, yes. The library of science is full of data on this.


I'm sorry but I will give it( the brain) a little more credit than that.


Little more is fine. Giving it immunity from being biased, or giving false responses is a huge mistake.


Would a computer be able to do a better job in this?

Do a better job of doing what?




Natural instinct is something you are born with and hearing, if your kucky enough to have it is a great gift to be used in conjunction with the brain to help process the things that go on around you in every day life.

Yes, to a point. However, evaluating and differentiating small differences is not an easy task the brain and the human subject is equipped to do well. After all, humans are biased and are gullible too, that is innate and doesn't operate on an on/off switch.


And it can do a damn good job of it!


Many times, yes, some times no.

[mtrycraft]

You and others devote your lives trying to control what goes on in the privacy of my own sound room, .


No, not at all. But, you made it public when it was brought up for discussion. That is what is being done, debated and refuted when necessary.

[mtrycraft]

That being 1. you don't have to be overly intelligent and 2. as long as you can hear, you can take part in this hobby. There is nothing to challenge here, their both facts.


1, yes.
2, maybe.


But what I got for replies one would have thought they were visiting Philosophical Review not an audio forum . I'm sure there are other web sites to disscuss those views like the Big question Why Are We Here but I don't want to go there and would rather talk about peoples experience with cables which is what it says at the top of this page. ( Cable Forum ).


Oh, but we are not discussing 'why are we here.'
We are discussing aspects of audio that is important to know to some/many, certainly not all which is fine.
Experiences as perceptions may be unreliable too. That is soemthing one should also know.

[zapr]

........Technology has out weighed humanity........Who said that?

[okiemax]

Guys my original post I left two simple observations. That being 1. you don't have to be overly intelligent and 2. as long as you can hear, you can take part in this hobby. There is nothing to challenge here, their both facts. But what I got for replies one would have thought they were visiting Philosophical Review not an audio forum . I'm sure there are other web sites to disscuss those views like the Big question Why Are We Here but I don't want to go there and would rather talk about peoples experience with cables which is what it says at the top of this page. ( Cable Forum ).

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

I would be happy to hear about your experiences with cables. As you have already found out, many of the regulars on this forum don't trust their perceptions, and will not trust your's either. Don't let their comments discourage you from sharing your experiences with those who are interested.

[Bill L]

You probably didn't realize it at the time but your post was the perfect troll for this forum. There are so many here poking sticks at people who use their ears (God forbid!) that it's turned into a never ending sword fight. "Is not!" "Is too!" is about all the info you'll get here.

[Lowdef]

You probably didn't realize it at the time but your post was the perfect troll for this forum. There are so many here poking sticks at people who use their ears (God forbid!) that it's turned into a never ending sword fight. "Is not!" "Is too!" is about all the info you'll get here.

Understood Bill, but theres no rational behind it. The ears are the most important tool in audio, you have no choice but to use them. Just as the eyes are the most important in photography. Would they recommend not using them when taking a picture. I think not! Thats why I'm a big advocate of common sense, if more people used it in their post we would all get along a lot better.

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

[Rockwell]

No one is saying don't use your ears.