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funnyhat
06-03-2006, 11:40 AM
Just a general question, I listen to classical music mainly, I have paradigm studio 20's right now, and really enjoy the sound, but obviously don't get all the low end on my recordings. Is there a standard frequency I should look for in a speaker to handle the full range of a classical recording (except for maybe pipe organ) when I want to upgrade? Any tips are greatly appreciated!

Florian
06-03-2006, 11:46 AM
Look for measurements taken at least 4m away, fullrange signal in a listening room. In other words disgard all measurements made by commerical products. If you like classical, consider a large surface area and more than 120 degree dispersion.

I can guarantee you that live audience stomping, air passing by the microphone will send deep sub 20Hz rumbles. Unfortunatly 99.9% of all speakers will NEVER reproduce that.Classical music is VERY powerfull !!!!
So, my best advice is to listen and to feel.

-Flo

:-)

PS: Eventough i highly dislike more then 2 channels maybe a big servo controlled subwoofer or a Rel would be good for you. But i would rather look into a different class of speaker.


s there a standard frequency I should look for in a speaker to handle the full range of a classical recording (except for maybe pipe organ) when I want to upgrade?

See above, but please remember that the next level of speakers will also require the next level of equipment. What price are we talkin about?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-03-2006, 02:16 PM
Look for measurements taken at least 4m away, fullrange signal in a listening room. In other words disgard all measurements made by commerical products. If you like classical, consider a large surface area and more than 120 degree dispersion.

120 degree dispersion will require alot of wall treatments to handle off axis reflections. I think anything above 100 degrees will have way to much interaction with the room. Dr. Floyd Toole and Tomlinson Holmann have both done white papers on wide vs controlled dispersions. It seems that the very wide dispersion (100 degrees and above in the vertical and horizontal axis) patterns that music lovers like really decreases image clarity and focus. It seems that off axis reflections combine with the direct output at different times and amplitudes smearing imaging and articulation. The natural timbre of the signals is also altered when the off axis reflections are combined with the direct output. Even Jim Thiel recommends a more controlled dispersion pattern.


I can guarantee you that live audience stomping, air passing by the microphone will send deep sub 20Hz rumbles. Unfortunatly 99.9% of all speakers will NEVER reproduce that.Classical music is VERY powerfull !!!!
So, my best advice is to listen and to feel.

-Flo

:-)

PS: Eventough i highly dislike more then 2 channels maybe a big servo controlled subwoofer or a Rel would be good for you. But i would rather look into a different class of speaker.


See above, but please remember that the next level of speakers will also require the next level of equipment. What price are we talkin about?

Flo, there really isn't anything humans can do that reproduces anything close to 20hz. Organ pedals are the only acoustical thing that can go that low. Sound effects in movies can go that low, but that is a manufactured event. Also there are VERY few microphones that can do anything below 40hz except boundary reinforced mikes like PZM's.

There are very few 20hz moments in classical music except in recorded organ works. From 40hz and up, its a different story. If the poster was interested in getting the most out of classical music sans big organ recordings, they should look for a sub that does from 30-80hz with high quality. There is no need to include frequencies below 30hz

Florian
06-03-2006, 02:36 PM
120 degree dispersion will require alot of wall treatments to handle off axis reflections. I think anything above 100 degrees will have way to much interaction with the room. Dr. Floyd Toole and Tomlinson Holmann have both done white papers on wide vs controlled dispersions. It seems that the very wide dispersion (100 degrees and above in the vertical and horizontal axis) patterns that music lovers like really decreases image clarity and focus. It seems that off axis reflections combine with the direct output at different times and amplitudes smearing imaging and articulation. The natural timbre of the signals is also altered when the off axis reflections are combined with the direct output. Even Jim Thiel recommends a more controlled dispersion pattern.
Well, i look at the dispersion characteristics of a real instrument and then look for a speaker that comes close to that. :-)



Flo, there really isn't anything humans can do that reproduces anything close to 20hz. Organ pedals are the only acoustical thing that can go that low. Sound effects in movies can go that low, but that is a manufactured event. Also there are VERY few microphones that can do anything below 40hz except boundary reinforced mikes like PZM's.
There is really plenty below, Tibet Horns like in the Kundun Soundtrack, Bach Organ Works, the Massiv stomping of people in a live audience, The wind going by the microphone.

Those are all things that go well below 30Hz, and only when you have a system that cannot reproduce it you will never know what your missing. On a true Fullrange system you will feel it easily! Not to mention the other recordings like from Marla Glen or the many MA Recordings with the Asian, Jeddish music or Flavish music!


If the poster was interested in getting the most out of classical music sans big organ recordings, they should look for a sub that does from 30-80hz with high quality
I think he should look for a speaker capable of delivering this performace. Eventough his Paradigms DO 40Hz, he still feels he is missing something. Why? Is there really nothing below that adds to the live effect?

He should save himself the trouble with a sub, buy a fullrange speaker, room acoustics and dont mess with phase erros, time delay errors and added uneven frequency response.

You should try recordings with the Royal Labs Ribbon Microphone! Purely Tube Processed, or the DECCA 87 recording of the 1812 Overture. With system not capable of fullrange response they sound boring and simple flat.

-My opinion

-Flo

funnyhat
06-03-2006, 05:13 PM
I am willing to live without full organ playback, I think the lowest I would want to have is the low end of the string bass range, contrabassoon, low percussion without rolling off. With that in mind is there a minimum low frequency to aim for? Thanks for all ideas!

Pat D
06-03-2006, 06:21 PM
I am willing to live without full organ playback, I think the lowest I would want to have is the low end of the string bass range, contrabassoon, low percussion without rolling off. With that in mind is there a minimum low frequency to aim for? Thanks for all ideas!
Speaker specifications are notoriously unreliable, although a number of the better companies will give you pretty accurate ones. This is certainly true for bass response, and even if the figures are accurate (and they may not apply to your room), you have to know what is meant. And many manufacturers give a quite exaggerated spec for bass response (good manufacturers, too), so the most reliable information is from reviews.

A speaker frequency response must give plus and minus limits to be at all useful, and even that is not nearly as useful as a graph. If the specs show a limit of plus or minus 2 or 3 dB say from 50 Hz to 20 kHz, that does not mean there is no useful bass below 50 Hz, as it is unlikely it just drops off sharply after that. When I look at review measurements in magazines such as Soundstage.com or Stereophile, I tend to check out where the bass response (anechoic or quasi-anechoic) is down by 10 dB (not always easy!), and as a rough guide, consider that as the limit of useful bass. PSB actually does it that way, but Paradigm gives a DIN spec.

Here is a link to the NRC measurements done for Soundstage.com for the current version of the Paradigm Studio 20:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio20_v3/

You will note that the bass is down 10 dB somewhere around 40 Hz, so, depending on the room, it may well do a reasonble job on a double bass, whose lowest note has a 41 Hz fundamental. We did have the Paradigm Studio 40, v. 2, in our home for a few days and to my astonishment, it did the organ pedals in Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (32 Hz for the 16 foot pedal) quite resoundingly.

Anyway, you already have Studio 20 speakers and evidently like them. As has been suggested, you could get a subwoofer and there are any number of them that are good to below 30 Hz. I personally want to be able to reproduce a 32 foot organ pedal (16Hz) fairly well. I use another mini monitor type speaker with a big subwoofer.

Or, if you want to get speakers that have a bass cut-off of 40 Hz or so (useful bass probably around 30 Hz), you should be able to reproduce most music quite satisfactorily, but it is unlikely they will be able to equal the bass output of a decent subwoofer.