Please Help with Sound Card Type

[Excelsius]

I have been trying to find the best soundcard for my new PC that I will be building this summer. I am not playing any games - I need it for listening exclusively to polyphonic music (classical) and want to see what is the best soundcard I can get for under $200. I have been through several forums already and I have been recommended Creative's X-Fi, Audigy Platinum Pro, and even E-MU 0404 which I have never heard of.
Most of my music files are in APE format, not mp3, so all he quality is there. My speakers are Logictech Z-5300 5.1.

[Geoffcin]

I have been trying to find the best soundcard for my new PC that I will be building this summer. I am not playing any games - I need it for listening exclusively to polyphonic music (classical) and want to see what is the best soundcard I can get for under $200. I have been through several forums already and I have been recommended Creative's X-Fi, Audigy Platinum Pro, and even E-MU 0404 which I have never heard of.
Most of my music files are in APE format, not mp3, so all he quality is there. My speakers are Logictech Z-5300 5.1.

Fist thing I would do is get better speakers. I used to use CSW Microworks sattilites until I replaced them with a pair of CSW S300. Whole different world. Like stepping up to a good pair of sennheiser headphones from the ipod buds. .

[Excelsius]

You know, I have a very hard time finding good speakers. Several people in various forums already said that it is impossible to get quality PC speakers b/c all PC speakers are made for gaming. I heard about Klipsch being good, but I read that they don't last more than a year. Could you recommend me some great speakers for $150-300? That would be great (if you really have a lot of experience with quality music production).

[Zhyn]

I think I have the opposite problem, I just recently upgraded my system from a cheap RCA stereo system to a Cambridge Audio Azur 640a V2 and some VR-1's.

But I only have a cheap Creative SB Live! Value. I looked around online but got really varied answers to what soundcard I should get.

I've also read alot about external usb soundcards. But the idea of running a sound through usb doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Maybe if it's usb2, which I don't have in my system.

[Geoffcin]

You know, I have a very hard time finding good speakers. Several people in various forums already said that it is impossible to get quality PC speakers b/c all PC speakers are made for gaming. I heard about Klipsch being good, but I read that they don't last more than a year. Could you recommend me some great speakers for $150-300? That would be great (if you really have a lot of experience with quality music production).
And I've been using a PC for music reproduction for over a decade. I've got nothing against Logitec or Klipsh computer speakers, but once you switch to a set of well made standmount speakers for your pc you'll never go back. The speakers I'm using now, the Cambridge Soudworks S300, came from my HT setup when I upgraded the surround speakers. You can find them as seconds on Ebay listed sometimes as seconds for a decent price; http://cgi.ebay.com/Cambridge-SoundWorks-Newton-S300-Slate-Pair_W0QQitemZ9733556774QQcategoryZ14996QQcmdZView Item
I drive them with a an 8" powered sub, the CSW 210d which is very similar to this one; http://cgi.ebay.com/Cambridge-SoundWorks-MegaWorks-215-Mahogany_W0QQitemZ8822402269QQcategoryZ3702QQcmdZV iewItem
I don't think you'll need a new sub, or amp though as your Logitec sub should have plenty of power to drive any speaker you choose.

I've toyed with the idea of switching out my speakers for super-high quality monitor like ProAc Tablettes, but that's for the future.

[Geoffcin]

I think I have the opposite problem, I just recently upgraded my system from a cheap RCA stereo system to a Cambridge Audio Azur 640a V2 and some VR-1's.

But I only have a cheap Creative SB Live! Value. I looked around online but got really varied answers to what soundcard I should get.

I've also read alot about external usb soundcards. But the idea of running a sound through usb doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Maybe if it's usb2, which I don't have in my system.

I used to use a Creative SB Live 24 for a long time. Now I'm using an internal Audigy Platinium that works fine for what I need.

[Feanor]

You know, I have a very hard time finding good speakers. Several people in various forums already said that it is impossible to get quality PC speakers b/c all PC speakers are made for gaming. I heard about Klipsch being good, but I read that they don't last more than a year. Could you recommend me some great speakers for $150-300? That would be great (if you really have a lot of experience with quality music production).

Here are a couple of high-grade computer speaker options from M-Audio and Alesis:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudioPro4-main.html
http://www.alesis.com/product.php?id=29

[Excelsius]

This is it – the conclusion. I finally put together all the recommendations that I have received over the last few days. I am posting this reply in all the forums I have gotten decent response:

Sound Cards:
1. E-MU 0404 – $99.95
2. E-MU 1212M – $199.95
3. M-Audio Audiophile 192 - $199.95
4. M-Audio Audiophile 2496 - $129.95
5. M-Audio 5.1 Revolution – $79.95

Speakers with integrated amps:
1. Swan M200 (two speakers) – $189.95
2. Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Monitors (two speakers) – $338.95
3. Cambridge SoundWorks S300 (a pair) - $259 (from ebay)
4. M-Audio Studio Pro 4 (a pair) – $199.95 http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudioPro4-main.html
5. Alesis M-1 Active 520 (a pair) - $299.00
6. Denon (I guess any model)
7. Rotel (again any model)

Some of the prices are MSRP and can be gained for lower bargain. Here are all the forums that made useful contributions (I’m listing them for cross-referencing):

http://www.tech-forums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108673&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183225
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17953
http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14376
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8828&an=0&page=0#Post8828

To conclude my research, there are a few contradictions that need to be ironed out:

1. Someone said that E-MU will be a waste of money since Audiophile 2496 can provide all the sound quality I need (that opinion was in this forum http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14376). How many agree with this?

2. It was suggested to use my current 5.1 Logitech Z-5300 amp/bass with the new speakers. Will this affect the speakers’ quality (until I get a regular amp later)? If I get E-MU 0404, which is 2.1 only, can I connect to it my 5.1 Logitech base without any negative effects and then connect my new high-end speakers to Logitech? Can’t I connect the speakers directly to the soundcard? (the bass will be missing, but oh well)

3. My final thoughts are getting E-MU 0404 with Swan M200 or M-Audio Studio Pro 4. What do you guys think?

[Geoffcin]

This is it – the conclusion. I finally put together all the recommendations that I have received over the last few days. I am posting this reply in all the forums I have gotten decent response:

Sound Cards:
1. E-MU 0404 – $99.95
2. E-MU 1212M – $199.95
3. M-Audio Audiophile 192 - $199.95
4. M-Audio Audiophile 2496 - $129.95
5. M-Audio 5.1 Revolution – $79.95

Speakers with integrated amps:
1. Swan M200 (two speakers) – $189.95
2. Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Monitors (two speakers) – $338.95
3. Cambridge SoundWorks S300 (a pair) - $259 (from ebay)
4. M-Audio Studio Pro 4 (a pair) – $199.95 http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudioPro4-main.html
5. Alesis M-1 Active 520 (a pair) - $299.00
6. Denon (I guess any model)
7. Rotel (again any model)

Some of the prices are MSRP and can be gained for lower bargain. Here are all the forums that made useful contributions (I’m listing them for cross-referencing):

http://www.tech-forums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108673&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183225
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17953
http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14376
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8828&an=0&page=0#Post8828

To conclude my research, there are a few contradictions that need to be ironed out:

1. Someone said that E-MU will be a waste of money since Audiophile 2496 can provide all the sound quality I need (that opinion was in this forum http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14376). How many agree with this?

2. It was suggested to use my current 5.1 Logitech Z-5300 amp/bass with the new speakers. Will this affect the speakers’ quality (until I get a regular amp later)? If I get E-MU 0404, which is 2.1 only, can I connect to it my 5.1 Logitech base without any negative effects and then connect my new high-end speakers to Logitech? Can’t I connect the speakers directly to the soundcard? (the bass will be missing, but oh well)

3. My final thoughts are getting E-MU 0404 with Swan M200 or M-Audio Studio Pro 4. What do you guys think?

I especially like the one from the guy telling you to get Legacy Whispers. I'm sure those would go good on the desktop... (there several hundred pounds each!)

OK; You can connect the self powered Alesis & M Audio speakers directly to your soundcard.

I wouldn't get a soundcard with sampling/mixing capabilties, it's just wasted money unless your producing music.

The system will sound best with the best speakers you can get for it. Spend your budget there. A speaker like the M-Audio will absolutely stomp on the Logitec sattilites you are using. The Alesis would be even better.

[Excelsius]

I have found used speakers: Alesis M1 Active mk2 Biamp Monitors. The regular price is $399 (MSRP $645). There is a used pair on E-bay for under 200 and a blemished pair on another site that is that is $299. For the blamished pair they explained that it is only a cosmetic damage (customer had returned it) but it is still new and works perfectly. Even has the same manifacturer's warranty as a new one. Is it ok to get those? Please let me know as soon as possible.

Geoff, I loved the legacy whisper advice too. The system costs about $15,000. I think I am going to get them - after I sell my car and my computer. Lol. The guy must have been really making fun of me.

[bobhaze]

Excelsius,

A few months ago I upgraded to the X-Fi Elite Pro in my HTPC setup, and am very happy with the improvement over the Audigy 2 it replaced. I suspect that some of this is due to the upgraded D/A converters used in the Elite Pro vs the "standard" X-Fi cards. In EMU's case you get the improved D/A converters by stepping into the 1212M. EMU and Creative are the same company, and I believe they use similar technology with the EMU products' I/O and applications geared more towards music production and less towards typical consumer use like home theater and gaming.
Playback sound quality on both cards will probably be comparable, with the choice between them mainly focused around what features you need and how you will use it. If you care about 5.1 or 7.1 surround, then the X-Fi cards have the advantage at a given price. For comparison I have an M-Audio Revolution and an Audiophile 24/96 now for a couple of years in other machines at home, and the X-Fi is definitely better than both. Smoother, quieter, and more transparent.
Of course as others have pointed out you'll never hear this on the Logitec speakers. They just won't have the resolution.
EMU has a new monitor speaker, the PM5 which I heard recently in a musician friend's studio that were quite impressive. It's reasonably priced and very transparent without any glaring vices. They are powered monitors so they'll connect directly to the card. He was using a Tannoy sub, but told me that at one of the trade shows he recently attended EMU announced they will soon release a matching subwoofer designed specifically to go with the PM5's.

Bob

[Excelsius]

I have already done extensive research in this area. X-Fi is not better than Audiophile or E-MU. It is for gaming. You can't really compare this cards using regular 5.1 or 7.1 gaming speakers. Perhaps that's why they all sounded the same to you. In reality, E-MU and Audiophile are professional grade. If you argued about E-MU 0404 and Audiophile 2496, then yes, the difference is so little that they are almost indistinguishable. However, if you had monitors worth several thousand $$, you'd notice that E-MU 0404 is the better one of them.

[bobhaze]

I have already done extensive research in this area. X-Fi is not better than Audiophile or E-MU. It is for gaming. You can't really compare this cards using regular 5.1 or 7.1 gaming speakers. Perhaps that's why they all sounded the same to you. In reality, E-MU and Audiophile are professional grade. If you argued about E-MU 0404 and Audiophile 2496, then yes, the difference is so little that they are almost indistinguishable. However, if you had monitors worth several thousand $$, you'd notice that E-MU 0404 is the better one of them.

'scuse me!

You assumed I''m using the card with a "gaming" speaker. In fact it's being used in a moderately high-end home theater system. I haven' played a computer game since "Asteroids". I've been into audio for the last 36 years both as a hobbiest and a profssional. Over the years I have done some small-venue classical recording professionally, had a jazz show on public radio, and designed products for a number of audio manufacturers, so I have fairly extensive listening experience.
Before setting up the X-Fi in the final HT system I evaluated the basic sound quality in stereo mode Apogee Duetta full range ribbon speakers driven by Museatex monoblock amplifiers. Although the equipment is a few years old, the combination is quite revealing of sonic differences, and happens to fit your criteria of being worth several thousand $$.
In this setup, in straight playback screwing with the sound using any of the trick SW, the X-Fi card was clearly superior in all respects to both M-Audio cards I had on hand. The difference in dynamics, smoothness, and imaging all favored the X-Fi. There is greater resolution of small details without the edginess that some older Creative cards occasionally exhibit. This is not to say the M-Audio cards are bad. They're both extremely good in the big picture. I suspect that at this moment Creative is simply benefitting from being a more recent design, and things might flip in the next generation. The X-Fi comes in different flavors,with the Elite Pro is the only version with the upgraded D/A converters and is the only one I can speak about with any first-hand knowledge. I have not evaluated the more basic versions of the X-Fi on the same setup.
You may be right, the 404 might be better, but it will take a real audition to determine that. I have not auditioned any of the E-MU cards in my own setup, and have not done a direct E-MU / X-Fi comparison. The musician/recording engineer friend that I mentioned in the previous post has both X-Fi and higher-end multi-channel E-MU card's in different workstations and finds them comparable in basic quality on both a subjective and objective (measured) basis. He observed that a most of the active circuitry appears to use the same parts on the E-MU and Creative cards with the differences primarily in the I/O hardware. This is where the consumer vs.pro distinction is obvious. The other distinction is the SW and drivers, where the bundle is obviously different for the different applications. The X-Fi User Interface has Entertainment, Gaming, and Creation modes suitable for different uses, whereas E-MU comes focused on music creation. This means little in terms of intrinsic sound quality for file playback except that the X-Fi has UI options to deal with poor recordings easily, if you care about such things.
However, in the reality, the cards under discussion are all really good cards. You won't find any serious sonic faults in any one of them. This is a far different scenario than a few short years ago when even the best PC sound couldn't compare with middle of the road home audio gear.

[Excelsius]

So are you saying that I'd be better off with X-Fi Elite Pro than EMU 0404? Isn't Elite Pro over $200? Actually I was thinking about a 5 channel soundcard, but given theat each quality speaker costs over $150, that's not an option for me.
By the way, could you please comment on my Alesis speaker?

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1AMK2

Aren't these much better than Alesis M1 520 or even 620?

[Geoffcin]

So are you saying that I'd be better off with X-Fi Elite Pro than EMU 0404? Isn't Elite Pro over $200? Actually I was thinking about a 5 channel soundcard, but given theat each quality speaker costs over $150, that's not an option for me.
By the way, could you please comment on my Alesis speaker?

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALEM1AMK2

Aren't these much better than Alesis M1 520 or even 620?

But here's an X-Fi for less than $100 ( after rebate)

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Id=4056660

[N. Abstentia]

The $50 Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is still the best sounding sound card I've encountered.

[Excelsius]

And here is an E-MU 0404 for $69.99:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail~dpno~704871.asp.

Santa Cruz is crap, excuse my Francais. And I don't need a pro to tell me that. I've had it for 5 years now with Dell Dimension 2300. Maybe it is fine for gaming, to go with crappy Logitech speakers, but when you're concerned about high quality sound production, it won't cut it. E-MU and Audiphile is what many pros have told me is the best. A myriad of reviews online testify their superiority as well. If you find contradictory information, you're welcome to share it. When one is trying to achieve bit-perfect reproduction, every bit counts.