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Dharris
06-02-2006, 01:31 PM
Hi all!
I just got through auditioning Axiom m22's with the VP150. While OK for home theater, they did not do as well for music. I listened to tons of different types of music, while OK for some, lot of music was harsh and made my ears ring.

With that being said, I am returning the Axioms and going with B&W.
I have picked out the 602 V3 and LCR 60 for my center. I know the LCR600 is a more robust center, but I need a center to fit my rack below my TV.
How many of you find the 600 series to be warm compared to the brighter speaker companies?

Thank you very much,
Don

PS, my ears are still ringing from the axioms.

jrhymeammo
06-02-2006, 02:01 PM
Congrats on your purchase

I think 600 Series are great value for money, much like Paradigm Monitor series(Which I loved). I always find them to be a bit warmer than Monitor series.

I hate to say this since you've already spent a good amount of money on speakers ($1000). If you are into HT, you should spend another $150 and get LCR 600. Everyubody should always match at least front 2 and a center. I think 602 and 600's woofers are off by half an inch, but it shouldnt create too much of a problem. But LCR 60 with 5.5" woofers with a pair of 7" in front, chances are you will be frustrated with mismatch in timbre. This will be the biggest and most pleasurable upgrade you can have for 150 bucks. But hey, this is your system try everything you can within your budget.

New speakers? Man, that is always fun. I'm Jealous.....
Have fun.

Dharris
06-02-2006, 02:04 PM
Congrats on your purchase

I think 600 Series are great value for money, much like Paradigm Monitor series(Which I loved). I always find them to be a bit warmer than Monitor series.

I hate to say this since you've already spent a good amount of money on speakers ($1000). If you are into HT, you should spend another $150 and get LCR 600. Everyubody should always match at least front 2 and a center. I think 602 and 600's woofers are off by half an inch, but it shouldnt create too much of a problem. But LCR 60 with 5.5" woofers with a pair of 7" in front, chances are you will be frustrated with mismatch in timbre. This will be the biggest and most pleasurable upgrade you can have for 150 bucks. But hey, this is your system try everything you can within your budget.

New speakers? Man, that is always fun. I'm Jealous.....
Have fun.
Thanks, though I have not bought them yet. I pick them up tomorrow. I may go with the 601 and LCR60 since I have two subs it may work out good for me... I can get the bigger center due to size limitations in my rack.

jrhymeammo
06-02-2006, 02:57 PM
Thanks, though I have not bought them yet. I pick them up tomorrow. I may go with the 601 and LCR60 since I have two subs it may work out good for me... I can get the bigger center due to size limitations in my rack.

Wifey factor? FlatScreen TV? Gotta do what we can I guess. 601 is still a great choice, the difference is very minimal from 602. you can always get a short stand for your center to put in on the floor. Just trying to help with my previous experiences with center speakers. Try a search in HT forum about matching center and fronts.

littleb
06-04-2006, 07:31 PM
I just had to reply to this since I had just the opposite experience. I think I listened to the B&W offerings for a couple of years before I finally bit the bullet. I really liked what I heard of the 602s3's in the store. I was so happy. Finally, I will have a decent set of speakers. I figured it would cost me a couple K, but I was prepared for that. I took them home and hooked them up to my mid-hifi Yamaha receiver. OOPS! Man, did I make a wrong turn. My weak amp just couldn't get any sound out of these. The sound there was consisted of bloated bass and nothing else. I had to turn the volume knob twice as high as with my old speakers just to hear them. To make a long story short, I returned them very quickly and opted for an Axiom setup. I will admit that, at times, the M22s are a little more forward than I like, but I haven't been able to find another speaker that bests them, yet. And, I've looked.

emorphien
06-04-2006, 07:35 PM
I listened to the M22s as well as some B&Ws, ultimately I'm very happy with my M3tis on a NAD C320BEE. I don't find them harsh, but they do reproduce a lot of detail. The M3s aren't as harsh as the 22s though.

Florian
06-04-2006, 08:36 PM
Maybe you guys should try some more serious power amps. I had the NAD 320 a long time ago and tried to drive my old Maggies with absolute zero good sound. Many people underestimate good stable power. For a budget i can recommend NuForce Ref. Class D amps. Plenty of power and details. And will last you for the leauge beyond Axiom and Paradigm. Might be well worth investigating. On an extreme example, my speakers should blow me away with 200 wpc. But only when you dump 700 in them will you know the true effortless finess and fullrange dynamics. Well, thats on my inefficent design but still a lot better then the 400 wpc blocks i used on them before. This doesnt apply in your cases, and is only ment as an example. Maybe its the jump from 90 watts to 200 or so.
Maybe you guys can borrow an amp. If you buy B&W's i am sure you can ask the dealer to demo it with a new Class D Rotel amp or a Classe with 400 wpc. Just so you guys hear the difference.

Just a thought.....

-Flo

kexodusc
06-05-2006, 04:00 AM
I'm not surprised you prefer the B&W to the M22Ti. I think they're probably a better speaker all in all.
When I bought my Axiom M3Ti's a few years ago (in a real store, to boot), I paid $225 for them. At that price, they were far better than any $200 speaker I'd heard and owned (Paradigm Atoms/Titans) and while shy in the bass, held up against some higher priced models. I wanted small speakers for my dining room...and the M3Ti's look good there (bonus), but they're not exactly for critical listening.

But looking at that M22, and the pricetag they have on it, I can't help but wonder what Axiom is thinking? I'll admit I haven't heard it, but I'm awefully skeptical right now. I struggle to believe the M22 is worth $460 compared to many other models at that pricepoint. If it sounds anything like an M2 with a bit more bass, it's just overpriced. Usually those second woofers are just built in baffle step compensation, with the 2nd woofer not running fullrange. These 2 speakers should sound very similar, with the M22 sounding a bit more "full" and "warm". Worth $460? I dunno, I'm not a usually a big fan of B&W's (nothing against 'em, just not for me), but I probably would have made the same purchase decision.

Oh well, every speaker company has its winners and losers.

kexodusc
06-05-2006, 04:09 AM
Maybe you guys should try some more serious power amps. I had the NAD 320 a long time ago and tried to drive my old Maggies with absolute zero good sound. Many people underestimate good stable power. For a budget i can recommend NuForce Ref. Class D amps. Plenty of power and details. And will last you for the leauge beyond Axiom and Paradigm. Might be well worth investigating. On an extreme example, my speakers should blow me away with 200 wpc. But only when you dump 700 in them will you know the true effortless finess and fullrange dynamics. Well, thats on my inefficent design but still a lot better then the 400 wpc blocks i used on them before. This doesnt apply in your cases, and is only ment as an example. Maybe its the jump from 90 watts to 200 or so.
Maybe you guys can borrow an amp. If you buy B&W's i am sure you can ask the dealer to demo it with a new Class D Rotel amp or a Classe with 400 wpc. Just so you guys hear the difference.

Just a thought.....

-Flo

Flo buddy,
I'm not one to argue against the benefits of better amplification, but in the context of a complete speaker system I'm not sure a big Rotel or Classe is gonna help the Axioms.
Truth is, those things are pretty impedance friendly and aren't fussy about amplification. They're almost certainly designed with the assumption that 99% of users would be using a $500 or less a/v receiver. That's who Axiom sells to. All the power in the world isn't going to change the bright sounding Titanium tweeter and tame the upper-end ragged response of the aluminum cones.

They're good inexpensive speakers, but they have their limits.

One thing I've noticed about the Axiom's I bought, unlike most of the other speakers I own(ed), they don't seem to sound any better regardless of what amp I use.
Whether I use a receiver, my NAD 3020, NAD amp, Rotel, Adcom etc - much above 85-90 dB's or so and they seem to sound alot worse the louder they get.

I think maybe instead of buying a nice Classe, they'd be better off buying nicer speakers first?

Florian
06-05-2006, 04:25 AM
I agree with you, i dont have long personal experience with Axiom or the small B&W's so it was just a food for thought that maybe it was the power. I had a similar problem with the Apogee is demonstrated to two Swiss people who came to audition. They brought a amp with 75wpc in a cute package. When you run the Apogee with it, it sounded NEW to me, completely unbalanced and edgy with no dynamics. It wasnt until i run 400 wpc into them that it got better. Now with 700 they are happy when the amp doesnt flinch even one, regardless of volume.

Are the Axioms more geard towards less bright and darker sounding amps`? Please tell, then i can write that the next time. Yes, i do agree that they should buy better speakers first instead of plunging down 2K on a Classe Amp. I thought it might be a good way to borrow one to see if this is the problem or not.

Cheers

Flo

kexodusc
06-05-2006, 04:36 AM
Are the Axioms more geard towards less bright and darker sounding amps`? Please tell, then i can write that the next time. Yes, i do agree that they should buy better speakers first instead of plunging down 2K on a Classe Amp. I thought it might be a good way to borrow one to see if this is the problem or not.

Cheers

Flo

There's probably some who'll disagree with me, but I think they'll probably sound best on neutral sounding amps. I don't think I'd use them with an amp that favors the high frequencies, might be too much.
I didn't notice much difference switching from one amp to another, though they sound a bit "thin" on the Adcoms compared to the NAD, maybe. Could have been the pre-amp difference though (rotel). Very small difference, but those amps couldn't sound more different to me, so I kind of think the Axiom's just don't reveal the amps character. Just buy an amp and live with the sound they have, I say. Most japanese receivers tend to sound the same to me - not really warm, dark, or bright sounding. That's probably what Axiom suspects most people will power these with. Probably good enough.

Florian
06-05-2006, 04:41 AM
Makes sense. :)

Thanks!

-Flo

Geoffcin
06-05-2006, 10:18 AM
Hi all!
I just got through auditioning Axiom m22's with the VP150. While OK for home theater, they did not do as well for music. I listened to tons of different types of music, while OK for some, lot of music was harsh and made my ears ring.

With that being said, I am returning the Axioms and going with B&W.
I have picked out the 602 V3 and LCR 60 for my center. I know the LCR600 is a more robust center, but I need a center to fit my rack below my TV.
How many of you find the 600 series to be warm compared to the brighter speaker companies?

Thank you very much,
Don

PS, my ears are still ringing from the axioms.

And they worked well for both HT & music. Alone, without a sub, they sound thin in comparison to many other speakers as they do not have a "bass hump" engineered into their responce curve. They were commendably flat throughout much of the range, and didn't show any sign of distress until pushed pretty far. They were also very extended in the treble, more so than a lot of dome tweeters I've heard.

Florian has a point in that the high-frequency strain you've noticed may have come from your amp. The M22 seemed to me to prefer a lot of current, and sounded best with my PS Audio amp driving them.

If your ears were ringing, perhaps you were listening too loud?

Dharris
06-05-2006, 10:26 AM
If your ears were ringing, perhaps you were listening too loud?

Was just a figure of speech...

At the same volumes and song, the B&W's to my ears blow away the m22's. I was listening at just below reference level. My test material was Eagles (DTS), Rush (Signals) Miles Davis, and many other CD's. Listened to both Speakers with both my NAD T753 90wpc, and my Rotel 100wpc. Neither amps changed the very forwardness of the M22's. The Axioms remind me of Energy speakers.

kexodusc
06-05-2006, 01:21 PM
I have to admit - Axiom has an almost cult-like following, so it's quite possible they present a flavour of speaker that's tops to some and so-so to others.
At first, I hated the M3Ti's, but I found with absolutely no toe-in they are a remarkable little performer for what they are. The price has gone up considerably in the last 3 years yet people continue to pay, so Axiom must be doing something right.

Dharris
06-05-2006, 01:28 PM
I have to admit - Axiom has an almost cult-like following, so it's quite possible they present a flavour of speaker that's tops to some and so-so to others.
At first, I hated the M3Ti's, but I found with absolutely no toe-in they are a remarkable little performer for what they are. The price has gone up considerably in the last 3 years yet people continue to pay, so Axiom must be doing something right.

For sure! I must agree with you, the sound may be appealing to many just like Klipsch.
Just not for me is all, which is fine.

Geoffcin
06-05-2006, 02:20 PM
Was just a figure of speech...

At the same volumes and song, the B&W's to my ears blow away the m22's. I was listening at just below reference level. My test material was Eagles (DTS), Rush (Signals) Miles Davis, and many other CD's. Listened to both Speakers with both my NAD T753 90wpc, and my Rotel 100wpc. Neither amps changed the very forwardness of the M22's. The Axioms remind me of Energy speakers.

I find most B&W's too laid back for my taste. The exception being the ones with the Nautilus tweeter, a marvel of audio engineering. I won't dispute the fact the the M22's were a bit forward, and that's not to everyones taste. For me they worked quite well for HT, which of course is what they were designed for.

The Axiom M80's with two of the same titanium tweeters we paradoxically less forward. As silly as it sounds, you may have been able to tame the M22ti's with just a 1 ohm resistor. Magnepan always includes resistors with their speakers, as many peole prefer a more laid back presentation.

kexodusc
06-05-2006, 02:50 PM
As silly as it sounds, you may have been able to tame the M22ti's with just a 1 ohm resistor. Magnepan always includes resistors with their speakers, as many peole prefer a more laid back presentation.

That's a really good tip that works for many speakers...If you're brave enough to attach it to the positive lead of the tweeter. Don't be afriad to try 1 ohm increments...2, 3, 4 ohms. Sometimes it takes a bit more resistance there to tame the top end. Resistors are really cheap too...I'm surprised variable L-pads aren't used more. They'd be cheap enough to add on.
I think I had a pair of old Cerwin Vegas that had them...might have been big old Pioneers though.

emorphien
06-05-2006, 08:10 PM
I don't have the megabucks some of you guys do, but FWIW the Axioms do sound very different to me depending on the source, but I haven't had many things to try them on. Aside from some Cambridge gear there's a big difference going from a bright Onkyo receiver which made them sound harsh to the NAD which makes them much more mellow and musical.

Either way I think they'll suit me more than adequately until I'm out of graduate school and making money. Many years from now.