Subwoofers Does Size Matter & More? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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EdwardGein
06-01-2006, 07:38 PM
Other then cosmetic size, if everything else is equal, will a 10" subwoofer produce a better & more powerful sound then an 8" subwoofer & so on? Do the more watts a subwoofer has generally mean that its louder & more powerful then one with less watts if everything else is equal? Will putting a subwoofer on a stand such as the Auralex GRAMMA™ Isolation Riser actually improve the audio quality & cut down on floor & wall vibrations?
www.truesoundcontrol.com/products/GRAMMA.html?gclid=CIfcvrz1oYUCFUuECwodF2KDuQ
Did anyone ever hear of Acoustic Sciences subtrap,which is very expensive & what are your thoughts on that? :5: :16: :16: :cornut: www.asc-home-theater.com/subtrap.htm

teledynepost
06-01-2006, 07:52 PM
ouput of the driver size depends on excursion and other factors. I think that increasing the driver size is more economical than increasing excursion + watts.

Florian
06-02-2006, 01:35 AM
Not to mention that driver excursion causes bending of woofer, distortion and less controll.
This is why most good manufactures add servo controls, but this is still a help after its too late.
:-)

kexodusc
06-02-2006, 03:36 AM
Other then cosmetic size, if everything else is equal, will a 10" subwoofer produce a better & more powerful sound then an 8" subwoofer & so on?
All things equal, you'll get more swept volume, which is critical to producing low volume output.


Do the more watts a subwoofer has generally mean that its louder & more powerful then one with less watts if everything else is equal?
Yes, more watts means louder, all things equal. But rarely are all things equal. Cheap woofers have poor sensitivity, poor power handling, or high resonant frequencies (or all 3 if they're too cheap). Don't by a subwoofer based on watts. If you need to compare output, look at the max dB of SPL it can produce.


Will putting a subwoofer on a stand such as the Auralex GRAMMA™ Isolation Riser actually improve the audio quality & cut down on floor & wall vibrations?
Actually, I found it made a small 8" sub I made sound a bit better, but definitely made the 10" woofer sound worse. I have no idea why that would be. It does very little as far as lowering noise in the rooms beside or below the room with the sub, but it did seem to cut down on vibrations a bit. The vibrating was still there, just being absorbed by the pad, instead of a hard floor resisting the transfer of that energy.

I think a good, cheap rug would probably be almost as effective. In carpeted rooms I'd consider one unecessary, unless the sub had no "feet" or spikes of its own.

kexodusc
06-02-2006, 03:43 AM
Not to mention that driver excursion causes bending of woofer, distortion and less controll.
This is why most good manufactures add servo controls, but this is still a help after its too late.
:-)

Good points. I always bring this up, but excursion is one of those things that people today seem to be trying to get more and more of. Not me. Too much excursion ruins sound quality. Go look at car audio.

To be fair, excursion relative to the woofers motor has to be quite high before any control (or even transient response) is lost, and most woofers won't bend unless driven too hard - the surround bears the brunt of the force, and even most cheap woofer materials are strong enough to not worry about woofer bending until driven too hard. If you buy the right sub for your purposes, you won't over work it and have to worry.

Servo's are definitely necessary though when you cross the line and want super loud SPL's with great sound quality. Though the best subs I've heard have not been servo. I think in most homes it's overkill. Get a good woofer of good sensitivity instead.

shokhead
06-02-2006, 08:09 AM
If i want a sub just for some bass,an 8" would be ok but if i want one for LFE,then even a 10 might not be where i'd start.

RH Customs
06-02-2006, 09:30 AM
By far the answer to your question in my opinion is NO. I would recommend the B&W ASW 300. It is only an 8, but this thing is a beast. Super clean, deep, bass, and yes I know it is only 100 watts. This is the best sub I have heard and is perfect for music and movies. This would be my pick and for $350 it is hard to find anything that comes close at all in that prices range that actual sounds excellent and does not just rumble. Also this is the most versatile sub you can get with all the connections and outputs.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/Label/Model%20ASW%20300

RH

N. Abstentia
06-02-2006, 11:19 AM
All things being equal, of course a 10" will outperfrom an 8". If all things are equal with the two subs in question, the only thing NOT equal is obviously the cone area. A 10" has more cone area than an 8" therefore it can go deeper and louder with the same amount of power. Step up to a 12" and it's that much better again.

Notice that B&W sub is -3db at 27hz..not bad for an 8". But then look at a sub like the Paradigm Servo 15..it's FLAT down to 14hz. It's all just simple physics...the more cone area and the more power you have, the more output you'll get.

paul_pci
06-02-2006, 11:27 AM
If i want a sub just for some bass,an 8" would be ok but if i want one for LFE,then even a 10 might not be where i'd start.

Sometime when we finally get together, I'll show you how much LFE my 8" Velodyne can produce, of course, the room boundaries help alot.

GMichael
06-02-2006, 11:48 AM
Size always matters.

shokhead
06-02-2006, 12:29 PM
All things being equal, of course a 10" will outperfrom an 8". If all things are equal with the two subs in question, the only thing NOT equal is obviously the cone area. A 10" has more cone area than an 8" therefore it can go deeper and louder with the same amount of power. Step up to a 12" and it's that much better again.

Notice that B&W sub is -3db at 27hz..not bad for an 8". But then look at a sub like the Paradigm Servo 15..it's FLAT down to 14hz. It's all just simple physics...the more cone area and the more power you have, the more output you'll get.

Just like sex,area,power,output.

musicman1999
06-02-2006, 05:50 PM
Ed
I have my sub lifted off the floor about 15 inches and it made my bass tighter and deeper.I have an eleven inch sealed box sub.Bass is very room dependant and proper placement is critical for best performance.I recently set up a system for a buddy of mine and his room had vast differences in bass response in as little as 3-4 feet of floor space.

bill

EdwardGein
06-02-2006, 06:09 PM
Is your room an open spaced room? With the open spaced rooms I don't have any problem. It's the closed in bedroom type rooms that gives my sub acoustical nightmares, particularly living in an apartment.

musicman1999
06-02-2006, 06:24 PM
No my room about 12 by 20 opened a bit at one end.It just sounds like you need to find the proper position for the sub.Put your sub in the listening position play some strong bass,turn off all other speakers and walk around the room you will see how different bass response is.Where ever it sounds best thats where it goes.


bill

EdwardGein
06-02-2006, 07:46 PM
Unfortunately the length of my bedroom, isn't close to 20' & logistically the only place I can put it in that room is in the top right hand corner of the room. To the left is my stereo rack & to the left of that is my dresser with TV on top & speakers & to the left of that is the door. Hopefully this new sub & isolation playform will help. By Acoustic Research 108 sub is OK but no fantastic for Cds

musicman1999
06-02-2006, 07:58 PM
If the location is set then you may have a problem that a new sub wont fix.If it is sitting in a room node thats sucking out your bass then you may be stuck.Did you try your living room sub?Not familiar with that sub,is it very big,try it as a table,that may give more placement options.

bill

EdwardGein
06-02-2006, 09:38 PM
The living room sub is great I tried it in the bedroom though & that was the problem, it was too loud acousticly & there really wasn't anything I could do but try it with lower volume which made it ineffective That sub was around 450 watts 8" So I went back to use my 8: 125 watts Acoustic Research Sub whose sound blends in the room & is fine for DVDs & TV but just so so for CDs. I'll see what happens with the M&K K-9 sub I'm getting- the price was right, it was $185 or so with shipping & sells new for $500 & is also 8" 125 watts & the aurelex carpeted isolation riser for a sub. I'll also probably try my living room sub on the isolation riser in the bedroom & see if it makes it any better.

shokhead
06-03-2006, 04:38 AM
Also with the orbs i guess the sub would be doing ALL the bass and maybe some mids to?

paul_pci
06-03-2006, 11:12 AM
Also with the orbs i guess the sub would be doing ALL the bass and maybe some mids to?

You know what: we could do a frequency sweep with my DVE, unplug the sub and find out how much of the entire frequency those Orbs really account for.

shokhead
06-03-2006, 12:47 PM
That might be eye opening. Whats your guess?

EdwardGein
06-03-2006, 01:26 PM
Orbaudio.com might have that info I'm pretty sure most of the bass goes to the sub not the speakers

shokhead
06-03-2006, 02:16 PM
I'm more concerned about the mids.

paul_pci
06-03-2006, 02:35 PM
That might be eye opening. Whats your guess?

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a vacancy in the speakers around 120hz, but you never know until you check.

cam
06-03-2006, 03:07 PM
I just helped a friend install a Mirage Nano-stat 5.1 speaker package, I crossed them over at 120hz with the sub (mirage claims they go down to 110hz) and I could hear a definite hole in the sound. Luckily my buddy knows dick about HT SQ. I would imagine those orbs would be about the same. A crossover at around 150hz would be more like it for those little pip-squeek speakers.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-03-2006, 04:03 PM
I just helped a friend install a Mirage Nano-stat 5.1 speaker package, I crossed them over at 120hz with the sub (mirage claims they go down to 110hz) and I could hear a definite hole in the sound. Luckily my buddy knows dick about HT SQ. I would imagine those orbs would be about the same. A crossover at around 150hz would be more like it for those little pip-squeek speakers.

There is no way with a crossover that high can you keep the mids out of the sub, or place the sub in a place that optimizes its LF output. It would have to sit right in between the speakers, or the whole soundstage would tilt to whatever speaker it sat close to. Also the sub will sonically visible with a crossover that high. Sub/sats this size have far too many compromises for me.

EdwardGein
06-03-2006, 10:03 PM
You guys understand this stuff more then me but here are the subwoofer & Speaker Specs:

SUPER EIGHT SUBWOOFER
Speaker Type High-performance ported bass-reflex design.

Port Type Precision-tuned flared snorkel port.

Amplifier Type & Power Custom high-power class AB amplifier with digital switching power supply for enhanced peak power output

150W (continuous)
400W+ (peak)

Amplifier THD <.1% (100hz at full power)

Amplifier S/N >95dB

Driver Super long-throw 8" high-performance driver with composite paper/high density ABS cone. This yields rigid, lightweight design with excellent low frequency performance and increased detail and musicality.

Magnet Assembly 30 oz. ferrite magnet

Frequency Response 28-180hz
Adjustable Crossover (40-160hz)

Max SPL Peak 111dB

Max SPL Long-Term 107dB

Features Phase Switch (0/180)
Adjustable Crossover (40-160hz)
Temperature protect circuitry
Auto/On/Off Power
RCA gold-plated stereo line level inputs
High level gold-plated inputs and outputs
12dB/Octave hi-pass circuit

Weight 31 lbs

Dimensions 12" H x 11 3/4" D x 11 1/2" W
(optional 1" feet)

Orb Satellite speakers
Speaker Type Magnetically shielded full-range satellite speaker. Crossover-free design for coherent, lifelike sound.

Driver Advanced high-excursion 3" full range polypropylene driver cone with Santoprene surround. These materials maintain their sonic characteristics over long periods of time and also through a broad range of temperatures and operating environments.

Magnet Assembly Fully shielded, high-density neodymium magnet with proprietary voice coil in high tolerance gap to create strong, highly focused magnetic field. Compact magnet design allows for maximum free internal volume and extension of low midrange performance.

Binding Posts Custom gold-plated brass binding posts (fits up to 14 Ga. wire)

Frequency Response 80hz - 20,000hz

Efficiency 89dB

Impedance Mod1: 8 ohms nominal
Mod2: 4 ohms nominal*
*Mod2 is compatible with all popular receivers & amps rated at 6-8 ohms

Power Handling

15 - 110 watts RMS
(please call us for compatibility with higher wattage receivers)

Mod1 On Desk Stand:
4 3/16" W x 5" H x 4 7/8" D

Weight On Desk Stands:Mod1: 17 oz.

Construction American carbon steel, assembled in USA

Finishes Premium Black Metallic Powder Coat
Premium Pearl White Powder Coat
Hand Polished Steel w/ Clear Coat

I

Geoffcin
06-04-2006, 03:42 AM
An 8" sub might be just the ticket in a modest room, but once you start getting into bigger spaces, and especially rooms with open floor plans then your bass needs greatly expand. Try to match the sub to the room
and your listening habits. Also, if your into action films with a lot of LFE, you may want to consider a bigger sub than would normally be recommended.

brulaha
06-04-2006, 07:29 PM
Sometime when we finally get together, I'll show you how much LFE my 8" Velodyne can produce, of course, the room boundaries help alot.

And I in turn am happy to show how much LFE my 18" Velodyne can produce. HEHEHE! Best used purchase I ever made.

paul_pci
06-04-2006, 08:53 PM
And I in turn am happy to show how much LFE my 18" Velodyne can produce. HEHEHE! Best used purchase I ever made.

You could probably demolish a poorly constructed building with that thing!

shokhead
06-05-2006, 06:22 AM
Sometime when we finally get together, I'll show you how much LFE my 8" Velodyne can produce, of course, the room boundaries help alot.

Cool!:)

emaidel
06-05-2006, 08:58 AM
I have an 8" Celestion powered sub, and a 15" Definitive Technology powered unit as well. The Celestion unit came as part of a home entertainment theatre package when we purchased our home, and it sounds pretty good, though thundering organ and/or synthesizer notes aren't its forte.

The Definitive Technology unit replaced the combination of a Dahlquist DQ-1W, a Rotel 980XB bridged amp, and the Dahlquist electronic crossover (I forget the model number), and it blows all the older stuff away. The DQ-1W was a 13" sub, in a much larger enclosure that went down just so far and then quit, but the Definitive Technology unit has chest-pounding bass I'd never heard (or felt) before.

I'm sure there are better subs out there, but for the price ($1,000), the Def Tech unit is hard to beat (and $1,000 is a helluva lot less than the previous combination of three units).

Not earth shattering news, but helpful perhaps.

EdwardGein
06-05-2006, 11:53 AM
For my bedroom which is right above the building manager's below, I'm looking for the opposite of thunder & lightning, just subtle bass & bottom. This is probably the opposite of what people are looking for in a sub & what they're designed for. Strangely, my more powerful Orb Supereight Sub in the open living room which sounds perfect for me, has never brought any complaints from the manager down below except when I played a 5.1 DVD of the recent Cream reunion concerts. I'm not really by any apartment on my floor- I have a pretty large apartment & the guy above has never complained (& I don't even know what he looks like). If I could do it all over again, I'd have a first floor apartment but the apartments where I
live are somewhat limited so this is the best for the time being, unfortunately. I'm not about to spend $325,000 for an 850 foot condo!

EdwardGein
06-05-2006, 11:46 PM
I might have totally screwed something up in the sub I ordered & was hoping someone can tell me if there will be a noticeable difference in the sound. M&K has a discontinued Sub the K-9 which I ordered based on their website saying they'd recommend this for an apartment (yeah something sounds off or outdated) & I was using their specs for the KX-9 subwoofer also 8" when I decided to buy the K-9 instead of using the K-9's specs. Please note, that I got this sub for the express purpose of sounding better then my existing sub for CD's- it sounds fine for TV & DVD, but not being too loud either that it would disturb the manager of my building who 's bedroom is directy below mine. So I don't want the walls & floor to shake.
Anyway, the K-9 sub is 75 watts not 125 as I mistakenly thought, is a "sideways" type sub meaning its width is longer then its height while the KX-9 height is a stand up type sub with its height bigger then the width. Both ranges are35 to 200 hrz. The sub I'm planning to replace the Acoustic Research Service 108 sub also 8" which is 120 watts & range is 30 to 200 hrz. Any thoughts based on the specs. I actually got the sub today but won't hook it up till Tuesday.

EdwardGein
06-06-2006, 10:55 AM
Well I can't win for losing as I plugged the M&K sub in & it just wasn't powerful enough for my
purposes. I guess I want something with enough drive that I like but not enough to cause the walls to shake & floor to ruble & piss off my manager in the apartment directly below. Will be recycling on Ebay again. So I've learned from this, I need at least 115 watts. Onward.

paul_pci
06-06-2006, 11:15 AM
I should be able to swing by next weeka nd we can plug in my Velodyne and maybe you'll consider the other, cheaper Velodyne that Ken Crane's sells.

musicman1999
06-06-2006, 12:47 PM
Ed

It's not the power,it's your room.If i get what you want,and i think i do,what you need is full range front speakers that go down in to the 40 range.That will give you bass and wont shake the walls like a sub does.It will work.

bill

shokhead
06-06-2006, 12:50 PM
I agree.

EdwardGein
06-06-2006, 01:06 PM
Out of curiosity, I tried using my Orb Supereight Sub (in the living room) in the bedroom again but this time I put it under 4 additional 2" high heavy duty isolation pads over the already 3/4" high duty isolation 2 foot long or so isolation pad I was using- thus these were like 2" coasters- I had made small pieces previously of the other isolation pad I had in stock. Anyway, this time it made the difference, total night and day, and it got rid of all the acoustic problems & harshness & basically sounds the same as in my living room now. So I'm going to buy another Orb Supereight sub & just sell the M&K & ARS subs I have. I'm also wondering if the fact that I'm now playing CDs through a CD player instead of a DVD player affected the sub sound as well. Onwards & upwards. Oh, I have one technical question on a sub, please read the next post here. Any words of advice would be appreciated.

EdwardGein
06-06-2006, 01:10 PM
Is it OK to plug my sub into the back of my Denon receiver which is connected to my Monster Power Conditioner or would you not recommend it? I can also plugit directly into my Monster Power Conditioner? Will the sound still be the same or could it be affected, etc?

paul_pci
06-06-2006, 03:18 PM
Shouldn't make a difference, but you want to make sure that the sub is plugged into a surge protector at some point in the electrical chain.

N. Abstentia
06-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Is it OK to plug my sub into the back of my Denon receiver which is connected to my Monster Power Conditioner or would you not recommend it? I can also plugit directly into my Monster Power Conditioner? Will the sound still be the same or could it be affected, etc?

Definitely DO NOT plug it into the back of your receiver. That outlet will only support low current devices such as CD or DVD player. In fact it should say right under it NOT to plug an amplifier into the outlet. But on the other hand, doing that would fix all your problems...you'd have to replace all your equipment and find a new place to live after everything burned up :)

EdwardGein
06-06-2006, 06:06 PM
Thanks for the words of advice. I think I'll err on the side of caution & unplug it from my Denon & put it into the back of my power conditioner. I had done this only for a temporary thing because until my new Orb Sub arrives, I'm going to have to put this sub back into the living room & my ARS sub back in my bedroom & its a pain in the butt to go under the bottom of my audio rack to plug this in & out of the power conditioner but I'd rather err on the side of caution. Once I get the second Orb I was going to plug it into the power conditioner anyway.
NAbsentia go wild & listen to regular cds in 5 channel natural sound with an optic cable & orb speakers & you'll never go back.

N. Abstentia
06-06-2006, 06:36 PM
NAbsentia go wild & listen to regular cds in 5 channel natural sound with an optic cable & orb speakers & you'll never go back.

I'll take your word for it! For now I guess I'll just have to suffer with the analong connections of my Marantz DV6400 feeding SACD to my Paradigm Active 40's.