Pros & Cons of using separate system for mains

[Hyfi]

What are some pros and cons of using an HT Reciever for Center, Rears, and Sub while using a separate system altogether to drive the main Front speakers?

What would be the best way of setting up the speakers? Should I hook the fronts to the reciever while calibrating everything and then switch them back to the other system, or can I setup just the ones I want without trouble?

I decided to buy a dual-zone HT reciever to replace an old and failing Hafler Pre/Tuner. I already have a decent main system consisting of a SoundValves 101i tube pre, Odyssey Stratos modded amp, driving Dynaudio 82s. There seems to be no reason not to continue to use this system for mains.

I am aquiring a pair of Paradigm Micros on stands for the rears. Still trying to figure out center and sub. I am leaning toward the Chorus CC 70 S Center since I also own a pair of JM Labs and like thier sound and quality. I also want the cabinet in Cherry to match mains.

I only need a sub for effects since my Danes already handle bass pretty well. Can I get away with a smaller sub for that with a large room?

Thanks for any input or comments.

Hyfi

[musicman1999]

In order to do this you need a reciever that has pre-outs,and set it up like this,leave your cd player connected to your preamp,main speakers still connected to your amp,all other speakers to the reciever,hook the main preouts to an unused imput on the prepro.When you listen to cd trh reciever is turned off and only your main speakers are running.When in ht mode everything is turned on,input selector on prepro set to the input you connected the reciever to.When you calibrate the multichannel system you must set the volumn control on the prepro to a preselected spot and leave it there everytime you are in ht mode.Works well.For your center i would select the match for your 82's.
good luck

bill

[Hyfi]

In order to do this you need a reciever that has pre-outs,and set it up like this,leave your cd player connected to your preamp,main speakers still connected to your amp,all other speakers to the reciever,hook the main preouts to an unused imput on the prepro.When you listen to cd trh reciever is turned off and only your main speakers are running.When in ht mode everything is turned on,input selector on prepro set to the input you connected the reciever to.When you calibrate the multichannel system you must set the volumn control on the prepro to a preselected spot and leave it there everytime you are in ht mode.Works well.For your center i would select the match for your 82's.
good luck

bill

Thanks for the reply, Bill. I was hoping for a few more comments but I guess not many here have configured a system similar.

So, correct me if I am wrong, by hooking things up as you suggested, I will be able to controll the volume of my mains with the reciever volume control after picking a spot on the main pre and setting up the other channels. That will be perfect. I am currently using one of the Tape Outs to run the Tuner to the main system. I suppose now I can do it with the Pre-Outs and controll both volumes.

I am going to purchase the Infinity Beta C250 Center Speaker. At this time, my budget is lacking for the matching Dynaudio center. I am also considering a Mirage
Mirage S12 Sub. It appears to be an older model but if still available a good deal for $400. I have had Mirage floorstanders and also Infinity speakers in the past and were not dissapointed.

Thanks again, Bill.

Brian

[Mr Peabody]

Hyfi, your HT will sound like hell in my opinion. You have nothing that will match. You may not notice it or get used it but if you ever hear a seamless HT system set up correctly you will kick yourself. I started with Dyn's Contour for mains and Audience center, I didn't think there would be much difference and I really didn't notice one but when I dropped in the matching Contour center there was a noticeable improvement. So you can imagine how off the sound will be if you use 2 or 3 different brands of speakers. And, when I went to a tube power amp to drive my mains that really mucked up HT. So much so for me I quit using the 2 channel system for mains. I now switch speaker leads to the mains depending on what application I will be using. I did have the system tied together via a processor bypass loop. I was using Krell on mains and Arcam on center before going tubes, again, I didn't notice a diference when listening but when I put the 3 channel Arcam on all 3 front channels it was a noticeable improvement. It wasn't that the Arcam sounded better than the Krell, it was the seamless flow of sound across the front.

I didn't understand what MM1 said. You don't have a pre/pro. Isn't the valve pre stereo? Your stereo preamp will have to have a processor loop or your Stratos power amp will have to have 2 inputs for your setup to work. You just want to take the main/front pre outs and run them into either the loop input or power amp input. If you don't have either, I wouldn't do it that way. If you can configure it I'd highly recommend matching Audience speakers. At least the center. If money is an object, try Audiogon or Ebay. Try to match where you can.

[musicman1999]

Sorry i did not mean prepro,stereo is all thats needed.Reciever handles the processing,preamp only need worry about l/r mains.

bill

[Slosh]

I've been using essentially a similar set up since I added home theater to my system in 1997. That is, I was happy with my stereo system and wanted to continue using it as is so I ran the front pre-outs from the A/V receiver (5.1 ready with a separate surround pre/pro) to a free input on my integrated stereo amp. When listening to surround sources I simply set my integrated's master volume to 12:00 (for easy reference) and control master volume with the receiver. For stereo sources none of the home theater stuff even gets powered up.

With the sub I kind of got lucky. Initially I connected the speaker level inputs from the integrated thinking that setting up my pre/pro for large mains/no sub would be the proper method in my situation. This worked as intended for digital sources but I got no LFE at all from SACD/DVD-A, even though both the pre/pro and DVD player were set up for large mains/no sub. I changed the set up to large mains + LFE on both and ran an RCA sub cable and everything worked properly but I thought I wouldn't be able to use the sub with my integrated alone when listening to stereo sources with this scenario. I left the speaker level connections intact and was pleasantly surpised to see my sub defaults to the RCA input when a signal is present, otherwise it uses the speaker level inputs. I have no idea whether or not most subs work this way.

If you don't already have one I highly recommend a good learning remote. This is a pretty complicated set up with two pre amps to control.

[Hyfi]

Hey thanks for the extra comments.

Peabody- I sure hope it doesn't sound as bad as you think it will. I have heard a few nice setups....20 or so at Soundex before it closed. My main reason for even doing this is the way DVDs are made. Whenever I watch a movie anymore, the backround music is louder than the dialog. I don't care if I have a killer system, but that I can hear the people talking in a movie.

Slosh- Good to hear I'm not the only one to do this. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mirage sub works as you describe. It's a discontinued model for half off of list and free shipping. Yup, there is a 60%-70% markup on audio gear. Maybe I will try the sub in my main just to see if it sounds good. The Danes have decent bass control but nothing beats your bones rattling.

MM- Again your input is appreciated. I'm not as happy with the harmon Kardon AV635 as I was hoping but lots of good features for $599 shipped. My pre-amp does have a process loop and two pre outs so it looks like I will have plenty of options to try.

Hyfi

[Slosh]

My integrated has a processor loop also but I didn't use it because it doesn't bypass the volume control (as a proper home theater bypass would) and it would mean I would have to use the A/V receiver to control master volume for everything, including components that aren't even directly connected to it like the turntable and CD player.

If your stereo pre has a true bypass input use it as it'll make life a little easier (especially for your wife and family :) )

[Mr Peabody]

I notice that the dialogue can get buried as well in some movies. A couple of things you might try is first just bumping the center up a couple dB in your set up menu or if you have a "night time" mode, you can try that to see if it levels things out. The "night time" mode compresses some of the dynamic range out so you can hear everything without the system being so loud. A Dynaudio center will certainly have the ability to let you hear the detail sent to it. The sub isn't critical that it matches the other speakers. But think in terms of your effects going from channel to channel, you want it to sound the same. If you are able to hear a tonal difference in the sound of a car or whatever going from left to right, you need to ask if that's something you will be able to tolerate. And if you use different amps as well as different speakers, I'd think the difference would be pretty evident. Would you listen to a stereo with different brand monoblocks on the left and right driving one Infinity and one Dynaudio? In HT since the channels are rarely all driven at the same time it may not be as bad as my scenario but it will still be bad. And, you could decide to try multi channel music or a music DVD.

[Hyfi]

I notice that the dialogue can get buried as well in some movies. A couple of things you might try is first just bumping the center up a couple dB in your set up menu or if you have a "night time" mode, you can try that to see if it levels things out. The "night time" mode compresses some of the dynamic range out so you can hear everything without the system being so loud. A Dynaudio center will certainly have the ability to let you hear the detail sent to it. The sub isn't critical that it matches the other speakers. But think in terms of your effects going from channel to channel, you want it to sound the same. If you are able to hear a tonal difference in the sound of a car or whatever going from left to right, you need to ask if that's something you will be able to tolerate. And if you use different amps as well as different speakers, I'd think the difference would be pretty evident. Would you listen to a stereo with different brand monoblocks on the left and right driving one Infinity and one Dynaudio? In HT since the channels are rarely all driven at the same time it may not be as bad as my scenario but it will still be bad. And, you could decide to try multi channel music or a music DVD.

I totally understand what you are saying and agree that things will not be optimal. I do have the option Slosh suggested to redo my mains cabling to banana plugs and swap the cables when using the reciver to watch movies. At this time my budget just isn't at the same spot it was when I put together ny 2 chanell system. I never really cared about doing the HT thing until I aquired a pair of little Paradigms on stands that were a friends rears at one time. I hate sending my pre to the Niles switchbox for many reasons and my Hafler Pre/Tuner died after 15+ years. The HK has multi zone so I am sending the signal for zone 2 thru my Hafler amp, to the Niles, and driving a pair of JM Labs Tantal 509s and an outside pair of Athena indoor outdoor speakers on the patio.

I'll let ya know how it turns out.

[musicman1999]

Best to keep your setup as simple as possible,stay away from tape loops and process loops,any unused input will work just fine.This kind of setup is not that uncommon,many people that had high end stereo set ups went this route when they wanted to get into home theatre.Simple is always better.


bill

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey thanks for the extra comments.

Peabody- I sure hope it doesn't sound as bad as you think it will. I have heard a few nice setups....20 or so at Soundex before it closed. My main reason for even doing this is the way DVDs are made. Whenever I watch a movie anymore, the backround music is louder than the dialog. I don't care if I have a killer system, but that I can hear the people talking in a movie.
Hyfi

Keep this in mind, it will help you to understand Mr. Peabody's points. The soundtrack on DVD's was created in a environment much different than your living room or listening room. It was created on a speaker system with three IDENTICAL front speakers with an equalized response to account for the difference in position relative to reflective boundaries( so they match timbrally to each other). Also the background noise of a typical well isolated theater is alot lower than in our homes. So the difference in volume between the dialog and background music that is experienced in the home, doesn't exist on the dubbing stage.

In the home, the center speaker is horizontally installed in most cases, sitting on top of the television, and often in acoustically challenging areas. In the home most dialog problem are a result of 1) having the center speaker in a null pattern of a standing wave, 2) on top of the television which creates boundary reinforcement that your L/R mains don't have, 3) oriented differently than the L/R mains, 4) in a room with a very high ambient level and lastly 5) the center has a different frequency response, dispersion, crossover point, drivers, tweeters which all create a mismatch with your L/R mains (i.e different speaker). All of these one, or in combination with each other will make dialog/sound effect issues bad, worse, or more worse if all of the above problems exist simultaneously.

To eleminate many of these effects from happening, and increasing dialog vs effects clarity a few things can be done if your room and or speaker design allows for it.

1. Orient the center channel in a vertical position the same as the L/R mains. Bring all speakers to the same height if your setup allows for it.
2. Keep the center channel well away from walls, and the television itself. This keeps the center channel out of high gain areas which boosts its output in the upper bass and lower midrange. This is the biggest problem for dialog intelligibility. Putting your center on top of your television is the biggest contributer to dialog problems.

3. Buy a center as close to the same size, timbre and frequency response as your L/R mains, and put them all in as close to indentical environments as you can. This not always possible, but the closer you get to identical matches accross the front, the less likelyhood of the sound effects intruding on the dialog in a distructive way.

Two of the worse "sins" I have seen in hometheater have been the horizontally mounted center speakers on top of the television. This really ascerbates the dialog/sound effects balance problems by fundamentally changing the center speaker frequency balance and timbre especially in relationship to the L/R mains. The other big sin is a mismatch center speaker. It may dynamically not keep up with the mains, driver crossover frequencies are different, as is the dispersion pattern and the frequency response. Not only will pans not be smooth, but if the center cannot dynamically keep up with the mains, the sound effects versus dialog will get significantly worse. Mismatches highlight the center, or the L/R mains instead of presenting the signals that come from them as one event.

Purposeful purchasing of a mismatched center speakers is like crippling your hometheater fefore is sends out a signal.

[cam]

Hey T, I have my center on top of my tv which puts the tweeter about 14 inches higher then my mains. I have a bridge that connects my audio towers flanking my tv which I could put the center speaker on top but that would make the tweeter in my center about 34 inches higher then the tweets in my mains. Would that be better since my center would not be on top of the tv, it would still be horizontal but maybe I could benefit somehow with this. It would be a bigger mismatch in height with my mains though, what do you think? If I had a flat panel display, my only choice would be on top of the bridge.

Sorry for the hyjack.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey T, I have my center on top of my tv which puts the tweeter about 14 inches higher then my mains. I have a bridge that connects my audio towers flanking my tv which I could put the center speaker on top but that would make the tweeter in my center about 34 inches higher then the tweets in my mains. Would that be better since my center would not be on top of the tv, it would still be horizontal but maybe I could benefit somehow with this. It would be a bigger mismatch in height with my mains though, what do you think? If I had a flat panel display, my only choice would be on top of the bridge.

Sorry for the hyjack.

34" would be too much of a height difference IMO. What changes would you have to do to make it the same height as the L/R mains? My center sits vertically on a stand in front of my big screen which makes all the tweeters/midranges within 2-3" of each other. I have never had any problems with dialog intelligibility, EVER.

[cam]

My tv fills the space between the side towers, all I have is on top of my tv or on top of the bridge. Right now, since I have a big crt, I can choose either, but if I ever got a plasma or lcd, on top of the bridge it would have to go. I have no vertical placement possibilities. I just thought that if I took it from on top of my tv, which in a way it is kind of enclosed with the tv, bridge, and side audio towers, that maybe letting it breath a little better up on top of the bridge might be better. But 34 inches above my mains may be just to much to overcome.

[Hyfi]

34" would be too much of a height difference IMO. What changes would you have to do to make it the same height as the L/R mains? My center sits vertically on a stand in front of my big screen which makes all the tweeters/midranges within 2-3" of each other. I have never had any problems with dialog intelligibility, EVER.


My main problem with dialog is having no center at all. I'm pretty sure things wil be better once I can separate the backround music from people talking. I was intendig to make a custom platform that would sit on top of my flat screen but do have the option of standing it vertically next to one of the mains but not at the same hieght. I could tilt it to have the tweeters pointed towards the listening hieght.

I know this won't all be optimal but it has to be a little better than my 2 chanell only setup.

[musicman1999]

Cam
Is the plane of the front of the tv behind the plane of the speakers or in front of?

bill

[cam]

Cam
Is the plane of the front of the tv behind the plane of the speakers or in front of?

billI don't know if I understand, but my center is flush with the screen and my mains are about 3 inches ahead, but they all measure the same to my seated position. Last night I farted around with placing my center on top of my bridge, angling it down a couple degrees, anymore and I run the risk of it falling to the floor, and I think it sounds clearer. I'm going have to test that a little more though.

[Mr Peabody]

For goodness sakes you don't want your center beside either main. Anything is better than that. Is there any room under the TV? If not, above it would be better than off to one side, that would totally screw up the HT sound stage.

[cam]

For goodness sakes you don't want your center beside either main. Anything is better than that. Is there any room under the TV? If not, above it would be better than off to one side, that would totally screw up the HT sound stage.Maybe I over read something (which happens alot) who's putting their center beside their mains?

[Mr Peabody]

It was Hyfi, in an earlier post.

[musicman1999]

Cam
No i thought from your previous post that your mains were flush to the tv and perhaps a little behind the front plain.I had a stand built for my center that sits on the floor.This places the tweeter about 16 inches off the floor and angled up to the seating position.I have had much better results with the speaker down low rather than on top of my television.The speaker is large,about 20lbs and is far more solid on a stand spiked to the floor than sitting on a 170lb chunk of plastic tv.


bill