So, whats spinning on your flat panels today?

[Florian]

Hey guys, whats spinning on your flat panels today? I have a Jazz day today.....pure wonderfull enjoyment..

[JoeE SP9]

Hi Flo!
So far today it has been.
Sonny Rollins Saxophone Collosus
John McLaughlin The Promise
Eddie Harris The Best Of

It's still early. Anything could come up next.:cool:

[Florian]

Very cool!

I had Black Sabbath in today for a visit. But right know its the "Tube Violin" :-)
I rebuild the audio room into my asian relaxing look and am justing pushing my beasts around a bit but i cant do much. I always sit down and listen and cant get up again.

Hehe :-)

[JoeE SP9]

Black Sabbath on a Jazz Day?:cool:

[Rick Vansloneker]

Tomorrow played The Best Of Santana.

Yesterday I had my new sat receiver digitally connected to the DCC951 using it as D/A converter. Now I have tons of radio stations to choose from. My favorites where it concerns pop/rock are The Arrow (UK), Radio Top Two (CH) and BBC6 Music (UK).

Below my satellite dish plant :)

[Florian]

Very cool Rick!

By the way guys, head over to the Analog section where i presented my new turntale :-)

[bubslewis]

Hey guys, whats spinning on your flat panels today? I have a Jazz day today.....pure wonderfull enjoyment..

Interesting. While listening to a lot of my not-so-new cd's and records on the new maggies, I find myself getting more comparative enjoyment out of the vinyls than a majority of the cd's. I did recently get a new ( nice, but not-out-of-the-ordinary) cartridge for my TT.

I'm not sure how much impact a new cartridge has on sound improvement combined with the new speakers, but some of the old vinyls sound just great.

Today's spins:
Beatles:Abbey Road Cat Stevens:Tea for the Tillerman Ozark Mtn Daredevils:Car over the Lake Album

Has cartridge technology/quality substantially improved since I got my previous cartridge (apprx 1989)? Same question for cd's. The large majority of my current cd's are from the 80's and 90's. Are regular cd's manufactured today generally of higher audio quality than those made 15 - 20 years ago?

p.s. Great pictures of old/new crossovers done by your friend. It looks fairly simple and maybe I'll look into doing that with the 1.6's after a while. Would probably feel much more secure if I could find somebody local who knows what the hell he's doing. I'd have no trouble buying all the parts and paying for the labor.

Bill

[Rick Vansloneker]

According to this (http://www.keithhirsch.freeservers.com/custom4.html) website 'old' CD's sound better.


...many music enthusiasts feel that these first pressings offer superior fidelity to later remasters...

[Florian]

Dear Bubslewis,

the catridges have gotten better, but not all. Your Maggies will show you the differences then most box speaker would have never shown you. Vinyl is a wonderfull medium and has brought me much joy and i have upgraded my table too! As far as the crossover upgrade goes, it is very straight forward and it will vastly improve the speakers transparency, speed, detail and integration. It is a must do for all serious audiophiles (since you owna Maggie, you qualify) :-) I can write a guide for this, and you can copy it if you like.

-Flo

[bubslewis]

Dear Bubslewis,

the catridges have gotten better, but not all. Your Maggies will show you the differences then most box speaker would have never shown you. Vinyl is a wonderfull medium and has brought me much joy and i have upgraded my table too! As far as the crossover upgrade goes, it is very straight forward and it will vastly improve the speakers transparency, speed, detail and integration. It is a must do for all serious audiophiles (since you owna Maggie, you qualify) :-) I can write a guide for this, and you can copy it if you like.

-Flo


Well thank you. A guide would be very nice.

Bill

[JoeE SP9]

Interesting. While listening to a lot of my not-so-new cd's and records on the new maggies, I find myself getting more comparative enjoyment out of the vinyls than a majority of the cd's. I did recently get a new ( nice, but not-out-of-the-ordinary) cartridge for my TT.

I'm not sure how much impact a new cartridge has on sound improvement combined with the new speakers, but some of the old vinyls sound just great.

Today's spins:
Beatles:Abbey Road Cat Stevens:Tea for the Tillerman Ozark Mtn Daredevils:Car over the Lake Album

Has cartridge technology/quality substantially improved since I got my previous cartridge (apprx 1989)? Same question for cd's. The large majority of my current cd's are from the 80's and 90's. Are regular cd's manufactured today generally of higher audio quality than those made 15 - 20 years ago?

p.s. Great pictures of old/new crossovers done by your friend. It looks fairly simple and maybe I'll look into doing that with the 1.6's after a while. Would probably feel much more secure if I could find somebody local who knows what the hell he's doing. I'd have no trouble buying all the parts and paying for the labor.

Bill
What you propose is not that difficult. I have a reasonable amount of experience with mods of speakers and amps. Maybe I could be of assistance. I live in Phila. which should not be that far. Send me a PM and maybe we can arrange something.:cool:

[bubslewis]

Dear Bubslewis,

the catridges have gotten better, but not all. Your Maggies will show you the differences then most box speaker would have never shown you. Vinyl is a wonderfull medium and has brought me much joy and i have upgraded my table too! As far as the crossover upgrade goes, it is very straight forward and it will vastly improve the speakers transparency, speed, detail and integration. It is a must do for all serious audiophiles (since you owna Maggie, you qualify) :-) I can write a guide for this, and you can copy it if you like.

-Flo

This is a great article on upgrading the cross overs in the Maggie 1.6. If the benefits are half what this guy states, it would still be worth it. Now I'm starting to think.....

http://www.precisioncomputer.com/ocean/MagUp/whatspec.htm

Bill

[Florian]

Yup!

It doesnt matter what class your in, a crossover upgrade will improve them tremendesly. Without beeing arrogant, even on my State of the Art speaker which is superb to the Magnepan 20.1 in every way you can get much more out of them with a crossover upgrade.

Go for it :ihih:

[Florian]

What you propose is not that difficult. I have a reasonable amount of experience with mods of speakers and amps. Maybe I could be of assistance. I live in Phila. which should not be that far. Send me a PM and maybe we can arrange something.:cool:
Now that is a kick ass offer, i would buy some good beer, good food and bust out that soldering iron. But please guys, use silver platted copper rails on the crossovers, i will host a picture soon. Once you get the same internal witing as the capacitor feet its awsome!

Mundorf Supreme Foil Spools are a must, and the Mundorf Supreme Caps are incredible too. Lucky for you the 1.6 doesnt have many parts, the DIVA has a ****load of parts which raises the price to an insane level.

[bubslewis]

What you propose is not that difficult. I have a reasonable amount of experience with mods of speakers and amps. Maybe I could be of assistance. I live in Phila. which should not be that far. Send me a PM and maybe we can arrange something.:cool:


Hey, that's very gracious of you. I live south of York, along the MD. border. So Philly would be in the ball park, distance wise. I'll PM you if I decide to proceed. Have to work on identifying and getting the right parts. Thanks, again.

Bill

[bubslewis]

Now that is a kick ass offer, i would buy some good beer, good food and bust out that soldering iron. But please guys, use silver platted copper rails on the crossovers, i will host a picture soon. Once you get the same internal witing as the capacitor feet its awsome!

Mundorf Supreme Foil Spools are a must, and the Mundorf Supreme Caps are incredible too. Lucky for you the 1.6 doesnt have many parts, the DIVA has a ****load of parts which raises the price to an insane level.

OK. Step 1: Identify parts needed. Please remember that my electrical knowledge ranks somewhere between high-dummy and very-low-moderate.
Capacitors
Inductors
wire
some kind of board or platform
What else? (what exactly are "rails on the crossovers"?)

Starting with the caps:
The piece I read about the guy who upgraded crossovers in Maggie 1.6 was written in 2,000. At that time the total capacitance of the caps was 22 microfarads. I'm betting that hasn't changed up to now, but how can I verify that (short of cutting open the back of the speaker and looking at them)?

Assuming 22 microfarads is still valid, I would need at least 2 caps per speaker, one each for low pass and high pass (?). They would ideally be 11 microfarads each. However No one I looked at so far manufactures 11 microfarad caps.

"MusiCaps" by HOVLAND look good with a three cap arrangement of 7, 7, and 8 microfarads totalling 22. This would run about $106 per speaker.

Mundorfs are a bit more expensive. They list their cap capacitance out 2 decimal places (eg 8.20) and I can't come up with a combination that will total 22 microfarads.

Am also confused by operating voltage. HOVLAND lists their caps in "WVDC" @ 100V. Mundorf list theirs in "VDC" @ either 800 or 1200.

If I had to choose now I'd probably go with the HOVLANDs like that other guy did. Other suggestions?

thanks,
Bill

[Florian]

Hello there,

I personally run Mundorf Supreme and they are exellent. But Hovland makes wonderfull parts too, so choose whicheveron is easier for you. Mundorf makes 22uF capacitors which you can use. I run 12 of them in my DIVA crossover. Do not worry about a few decimals off spec, this doesnt make a difference. Please use Mundorf "FOIL ONLY SPOOLS". As for wiring, i can recommend silver plated copper rails since they are the same resistance as the capacitor feet. I would extend the internal wires and build a external platform or box in which to house the crossover.

Make sure you make it for biwiring and i can recommend Eichman Terminals or direct wiring.

-Flo



This was my BETA VERSION, the NEW one is MUCH prettier!

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/505/medium/244261DSCF0016.JPG

[bubslewis]

Hello there,

I personally run Mundorf Supreme and they are exellent. But Hovland makes wonderfull parts too, so choose whicheveron is easier for you. Mundorf makes 22uF capacitors which you can use. I run 12 of them in my DIVA crossover. Do not worry about a few decimals off spec, this doesnt make a difference. Please use Mundorf "FOIL ONLY SPOOLS". As for wiring, i can recommend silver plated copper rails since they are the same resistance as the capacitor feet. I would extend the internal wires and build a external platform or box in which to house the crossover.

Make sure you make it for biwiring and i can recommend Eichman Terminals or direct wiring.

-Flo



This was my BETA VERSION, the NEW one is MUCH prettier!

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/505/medium/244261DSCF0016.JPG


Hi. Thanks for the info.

Question: Discounting the differences in size, are there any advantages or disadvantages to using a single 22uF capacitor vs. using a 3 combination capacitor array that totals 22uF? The 22uF Mundorf Supreme would be less expensive than the 3 way Hovland combo.

thanks,
Bill

[JoeE SP9]

The total capacitance is what matters. It does look neater and more elegant when you use only one. Sometimes using a combination will allow closer matching from left to right. It is more important that the component values match in each crossover than anything else. For example it is better to have 23mf capacitors in each crossover than a 21mf in one and 23mf in the other. The same applies for any resistors. Some retailers will value match components for a small additional fee. If you can get parts matched this way try to do so. If you do not value match components in each crossover you will not get the same crossover frequencys and slopes for each crossover. The closer each speaker sounds to each other the better the overall sound. Matching within 1% is desirable.:cool:

[Florian]

Hi. Thanks for the info.

Question: Discounting the differences in size, are there any advantages or disadvantages to using a single 22uF capacitor vs. using a 3 combination capacitor array that totals 22uF? The 22uF Mundorf Supreme would be less expensive than the 3 way Hovland combo.

thanks,
Bill
Well, it depends on the design. My Apogees have internal rails for over 100 Ampere of current. And beating that amount trough 8 or 2 feet is a difference ;-)

I would go with 2x 11's....

[Feanor]

...

Starting with the caps:
The piece I read about the guy who upgraded crossovers in Maggie 1.6 was written in 2,000. At that time the total capacitance of the caps was 22 microfarads. I'm betting that hasn't changed up to now, but how can I verify that (short of cutting open the back of the speaker and looking at them)?

Assuming 22 microfarads is still valid, I would need at least 2 caps per speaker, one each for low pass and high pass (?). They would ideally be 11 microfarads each. However No one I looked at so far manufactures 11 microfarad caps.

"MusiCaps" by HOVLAND look good with a three cap arrangement of 7, 7, and 8 microfarads totalling 22. This would run about $106 per speaker.

Mundorfs are a bit more expensive. They list their cap capacitance out 2 decimal places (eg 8.20) and I can't come up with a combination that will total 22 microfarads.

Am also confused by operating voltage. HOVLAND lists their caps in "WVDC" @ 100V. Mundorf list theirs in "VDC" @ either 800 or 1200.

If I had to choose now I'd probably go with the HOVLANDs like that other guy did. Other suggestions?

thanks,
Bill

Given the recommendation that an MG 1.6QR crossover upgrade is a good thing, I started looking around at capacitors that I might use.

So for 22uF of capacitance I could use, say, two 10uF plus one 2uF MusiCaps, total price per side US$205.20 from Madisound -- not exactly cheap.


Alternatively I could use Solen Teflon FEP Film & Tin Foil capacitors...

4 x 10uF 1000volt @ US$428.84 = $1715.36
4 x 1uF 1000volt @ $52.94 = $211.76
Total: US$1927.12

Seems a little over the top!

[bubslewis]

Given the recommendation that an MG 1.6QR crossover upgrade is a good thing, I started looking around at capacitors that I might use.

So for 22uF of capacitance I could use, say, two 10uF plus one 2uF MusiCaps, total price per side US$205.20 from Madisound -- not exactly cheap.


Alternatively I could use Solen Teflon FEP Film & Tin Foil capacitors...

4 x 10uF 1000volt @ US$428.84 = $1715.36
4 x 1uF 1000volt @ $52.94 = $211.76
Total: US$1927.12

Seems a little over the top!

Feanor, your cost estimate puzzles me. Here's a cost estimate (US dollar) I come up with so far:

Per speaker:
One 22uF Mundorf Supreme capacitor - $89 (available at MadiSound)
One 3.5mH air core foil inductor (the spool) - $58 (available from Alpha Core Inc.)*
12 guage silver plated copper wire** - $15
Connectors (if necessary) - $20 estimated
Some kind of board - $0
Hands on assistance from JoeE SP9 - $Priceless$

Estimated cost per speaker - $180. Have I missed something?

** Florian, when you say silver plated copper rails do you mean the wires?
* Florian. I can't seem to find any USA dealers for Mundorf spools.

Thanks,
Bill

[bubslewis]

The total capacitance is what matters. It does look neater and more elegant when you use only one. Sometimes using a combination will allow closer matching from left to right. It is more important that the component values match in each crossover than anything else. For example it is better to have 23mf capacitors in each crossover than a 21mf in one and 23mf in the other. The same applies for any resistors. Some retailers will value match components for a small additional fee. If you can get parts matched this way try to do so. If you do not value match components in each crossover you will not get the same crossover frequencys and slopes for each crossover. The closer each speaker sounds to each other the better the overall sound. Matching within 1% is desirable.:cool:

Found a great web site called MUG (Magnepan Users Group). http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG. In the "Tweaks" section they have just about everything about upgrading Magnepan crossovers: pictures (thank god), schematics, step-by-step instructions, recommended parts, wiring, minimum/maximum costs, how to cut the speaker cloth, etc. Really first rate.

So............I'm gonna try and change out the capacitors and the spool first by myself. All the experts on the MUG site recommend doing this prior to upgrading the wiring. Will go with the Hovland capacitors 7,7,8 uf combo and the Alpha Core air core foil inductor. Should run about $320 for both speakers.

Also printed out "How to solder" from some web site, since I don't believe I've ever soldered anything in my entire life. Actually the soldering and cutting open the speaker cloth are what scare me the most.

JoeE SP9, thanks again for your offer of assistance. I still may need some help at some point here.

[Feanor]

Feanor, your cost estimate puzzles me. Here's a cost estimate (US dollar) I come up with so far:

Per speaker:
One 22uF Mundorf Supreme capacitor - $89 (available at MadiSound)
One 3.5mH air core foil inductor (the spool) - $58 (available from Alpha Core Inc.)*
12 guage silver plated copper wire** - $15
Connectors (if necessary) - $20 estimated
Some kind of board - $0
Hands on assistance from JoeE SP9 - $Priceless$

Estimated cost per speaker - $180. Have I missed something?

** Florian, when you say silver plated copper rails do you mean the wires?
* Florian. I can't seem to find any USA dealers for Mundorf spools.

Thanks,
Bill

Priceless indeed. Thanks, bubs. No, I don't see that you missed a thing.

Let me ask, though, are multiple parallel capacitors and/or a by-pass cap good ideas?

[Rick Vansloneker]

Is it correct the MG12's are only $1099,00 a pair in the US? Will there be additional costs like taxes?

[bubslewis]

Priceless indeed. Thanks, bubs. No, I don't see that you missed a thing.

Let me ask, though, are multiple parallel capacitors and/or a by-pass cap good ideas?

Feanor, Magnepan manufactures the 1.6 using parallel capacitors in their crossover. What I'm doing is simply exchanging their parallel capacitor combo with a higher quality combo (minus the by pass). The total capacitance of the new capacitors will be the same as the original combo of 22 uF.

Same with the inductor spool. Just using a better one with the same 3.5 mH value as the original.

I have no idea if using a single 22uF capacitor is better/worse than a parallel setup that totals 22uF's. I kinda think either way would be OK.

I just ordered the capacitors and inductors, so I am now committed to doing this. Upgrading the capacitors and inductor spool seems to be the biggest bang for the buck as far as sonic improvement. I'll consider the wiring upgrade after I determine the extent of improvement (if any) from the new caps/spools (new caps have a 40 hour burn in period).

I figure if I can do this then just about anybody else could too. If significant improvement results then you might want to consider trying it with your 1.6's.

Will keep you posted.

thanks,
Bill

[JoeE SP9]

JoeE SP9, thanks again for your offer of assistance. I still may need some help at some point here.
All of us are curious as to what you will hear or not, when this is over. My offer still stands. Send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. The way you are going I don't think you'll have any problems. You do have a large support group here and elswhere. So, if you need help there is plenty in the mix.:cool:

[JoeE SP9]

When you connect capacitors in parallel the voltage rating is increased. Two 10 micro farad 50volt rated caps wired in parallel will total 20 micro farad's capacitance and have a 100volt rating. When wired in series the voltage rating is whatever it is for the device with the lowest voltage rating (capacitor) but the capacitance is calculated the same way parallel resistance is.

[Feanor]

When you connect capacitors in parallel the voltage rating is increased. Two 10 micro farad 50volt rated caps wired in parallel will total 20 micro farad's capacitance and have a 100volt rating. When wired in series the voltage rating is whatever it is for the device with the lowest voltage rating (capacitor) but the capacitance is calculated the same way parallel resistance is.

Thanks, Joe. I understand this better now, especially the voltage aspect.

I think I've notice a trend in amplifier design to multiple power supply capacitors; as I recall the reason offered was that multiple capacitors unload faster singles for the same total capacitance -- I don't whether I got that right or whether it applies to crossover caps too.

[E-Stat]

When wired in series the voltage rating is whatever it is for the device with the lowest voltage rating (capacitor) but the capacitance is calculated the same way parallel resistance is.
Unfortunately, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Series wiring does increase the voltage capability, but the capacitance is diminshed.

http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/10231.png

My VTL power amps, for example use a pair of 400 volt 3300 uf caps in series for its power supply. That yields 1650 uf for its 550 volt rail.

rw

[Florian]

I just wanted to say that i am very glad that this Planar Section is on its way to become a great resource and that more fans join in with Planar speakers..

Cheerfully

-Flo

PS: About the silver plated copper rails. Try to use them for all conections. :-)

[JoeE SP9]

Thanks E-Stat. I got so frustrated trying to get this editor to display subscripts I got some of my information garbled.:cool:

[bubslewis]

All of us are curious as to what you will hear or not, when this is over. My offer still stands. Send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. The way you are going I don't think you'll have any problems. You do have a large support group here and elswhere. So, if you need help there is plenty in the mix.:cool:

JoeE SP9,
Thanks. I feel reassured now (was afraid I might become a pain in the butt with continuous pestering questions). Will certainly PM you when I get started.

Couple of quick questions while I'm here. Understand that I haven't cut open the back grill cloth or received any parts yet.

1: The existing inductor spool uses wire leads that are soldered to the ends of wherever theyr'e going. The new inductor spool will hav foil. Am concerned about the best way to connect them. Will the foil be solderable and if so, is it easy or hard to connect them via solder? Could I punch a hole in the foil and connect them in a different manner?

2: Are the inductor spool and the capacitors bi-directional? Simply put do they have an "in and an out"? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to orient them properly if they only go in one direction, but it would be one less thing I'd have to worry about if it didn't matter.

thanks,
Bill

[Florian]

1. The spools are VERY EASY to solder and Heat up extremely quick :-)
2. Just make sure you connect them the same way on both sides :-)

-Busy

-Flo

[JoeE SP9]

Some caps are marked for direction. If there is no marking try to wire them for current flow in the same direction. I don't know if this makes a difference but it can't hurt. The same goes for the coils where it can make difference.:cool:

[bubslewis]

1. The spools are VERY EASY to solder and Heat up extremely quick :-)
2. Just make sure you connect them the same way on both sides :-)

-Busy

-Flo

Question: Is using connectors for crossover wiring better, worse, or the same as soldering the wires together? I have access to a wide variety of connectors including some nice star shaped 4 way connectors. These would (seemingly) be perfect for parallel wiring of the 3 capacitor combo I'm using for the tweeter side of the crossover on my maggie 1.6's.
Zip, zip, zip, crimp, crimp, crimp and I'm done in 10 seconds. Almost seems too easy.

I would guess soldering would be better since all the wires are physically touching each other with no other material present except the solder. Would using connectors introduce additional material into the signal path, thus increasing the chance of degrading the signal?

Been on vacation for the last two weeks, but tomorrow I cut the back of my maggies open......... Oh god.

Bill

[JoeE SP9]

Use solder if at all possible. Rat Shack has silver solder. It has a reasonably low melt point .:cool:

[bubslewis]

Some observations after crossover upgrade of maggie 1.6's:

Did I hear earth shattering, awesome, mind boggling improvements - No. Since the speakers already sounded great before I started, I believe there's no way a crossover upgrade would make a quantum leap in sonic improvement.

Surprisingly, the bass sounded firmer, with a bit better extension.

Vocals seemed a bit more forward. I liked this better since I thought the vocals were a little too recessed on some of the music I had listened to.

I noticed a bit of a zing on the high end at times, but this disappeared after about 10 - 15 hours of playing time. I put the speakers back in the same position they were in before the upgrade, but found I liked the sound better after I moved them about two feet farther apart.

I had trouble soldering the small solderable ends of the 12 gauge wire capacitors, so I used a 4 way connector. I've got a friend who knows solder, so shortly he'll help me undo the connectors and go with straight solder. This can only help on the high end.

Will take some pictures when I finish the boxes.

Bill

[JoeE SP9]

With any gear as good as your Maggy's changes are usually incremental. You may notice other subtle differences as the crossover parts age. I know there are those who will say this doesn't happen. For them it doesn't because their gear isn't as revealing. I'm curious about what you are using to drive your Maggy's. In any case I'm glad everything is working and that you are satisfied. You are already hearing things most people can't hear or don't believe exist. Welcome to the high end.:thumbsup:

[bubslewis]

With any gear as good as your Maggy's changes are usually incremental. You may notice other subtle differences as the crossover parts age. I know there are those who will say this doesn't happen. For them it doesn't because their gear isn't as revealing. I'm curious about what you are using to drive your Maggy's. In any case I'm glad everything is working and that you are satisfied. You are already hearing things most people can't hear or don't believe exist. Welcome to the high end.:thumbsup:

I use a B&K 125.2 reference amp (don't know what the "reference" refers to). 125W @ 8 ohms, 185W @ 4 ohms, 30 amps peak current. Not the biggest amp in the world but it seems to do fine at any listening level that I have chosen thus far.

Am also considering a better preamp for when I listen to music. I got some real good help from some forum members on a thread I started in the amp/preamp forum "can I use 2 preamps".

tx,
Bill

[JoeE SP9]

B&K has always made nice stuff. Reference usually means they charge more for it. Although Maggy's like lots of current, the load is almost completely resistive so they're actually easy to drive. I use an ARC SP9 MKII for a preamp. I have used ARC preamps since the early 80's. I can't give a higher recommendation than that.:cool: