Bookshelf Speaker Positioning Question

[nightflier]

I need to place a pair of bookshelves on an actual bookshelf. Now I'm wondering if there are any higher-end ($1-2K range) speakers designed for this. I was thinking that a front ported design would give me more flexibility, but everything I'm looking at still recommends placing the speakers on stands with x amount of inches from the rear & sides. Obviously using wall brackets poses the same problems.

So realistically, how much is a front-ported design still affected by the side & rear surfaces? Also, could I dampen those surfaces to reduce this effect? Any speaker make/model recommendations?

[Jimmy C]

I need to place a pair of bookshelves on an actual bookshelf. Now I'm wondering if there are any higher-end ($1-2K range) speakers designed for this. I was thinking that a front ported design would give me more flexibility, but everything I'm looking at still recommends placing the speakers on stands with x amount of inches from the rear & sides. Obviously using wall brackets poses the same problems.

So realistically, how much is a front-ported design still affected by the side & rear surfaces? Also, could I dampen those surfaces to reduce this effect? Any speaker make/model recommendations?

...the M20s from Revel? They MUST be under $1K used, as their new line is coming/came out.

I wouldn't worry so much about front/rear porting, I don't believe one can say either is best against/away from a wall. Too many variables to be definitive.

The M20s, however, have a switch that will allow placement to confined spaces. Not sure if this neutral transducer will be to your liking, but, IMO, worthy of a listen. Bear in mind, there is nothing to "grab" you upon first demo. That might be be good for you, maybe not.

I've had mine for almost four years, and I'm having a hard time finding something to replace them, even when talking thrice dinero. A different flavor can be had, but for me to spend, it's gonna have to be w-a-y better...

I'm still looking, and the Revel idea is only one of many...

Good luck, and let us know what what you hear... That is what this board is all about!.

[kexodusc]

If placed in a bookshelf close to a back wall, less than 1 foot, I'd definitely recommend front porting. You will get some resistance to airflow as you turn the volume up and frequency approaches tuning. This is minor though, and can be avoided altogether if you're using a subwoofer.
More important is the placement of the speaker. If you were to look at FR plots of speakers placed in open space, 2 feet from a wall, and back against a wall, you'd notice that the further out from the wall you go the lower the response below 1000 Hz. The response is sloping downward below approximately 1000 Hz in open space, and will find it's -3dB somewhere between 450 and 600 Hz on most speakers (related to baffle width).

Speakers compensate for this loss of lower frequencies in the crossover. Most switches just swap resistors in the Baffle Step Compensation circuitry to allow for some flexibility.

Some speakers are made for wall placement, and therefore don't need to build in this compensation. Your best bet is to find a speaker that's made to go against a wall, or in a corner.

Of course, your ears might actually like the sound you get despite what happens to the frequency response, so some listening is required, just try to place the speakers in a similar environment to get an idea...

[nightflier]

OK, this may seem like a silly question but how are speakers meant to be placed against a wall different? For example, how is Axiom's W22 speaker different from their M22? I know they look different, but how do they compensate for the loss of that big flared rear port on the M22. I can't believe these speakers are comparable in sound.

That said, Axiom W's are more in-wall and I was thinking about something more conventional like VonSchweikert's VR-1 or Polk's LSi7, although I wouldn't mind going up in price somewhat if it will get me better imaging & soundstage. I suppose I could clear the space to the sides of the speakers but moving away from the back wall is tricky; the shelves just aren't that deep.

[Florian]

Well, i know i might get shot for this, but how about some Audio Notes? They are meant to be used with a backwall (eventough you will never get a flat responce) and they are quite dynamic for a small box. Its at least worth a listen.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

OK, this may seem like a silly question but how are speakers meant to be placed against a wall different? For example, how is Axiom's W22 speaker different from their M22? I know they look different, but how do they compensate for the loss of that big flared rear port on the M22. I can't believe these speakers are comparable in sound.

.

When frequencies that have wavelengths longer than the width (and to some extent height) of the speaker will wrap around the speaker...those fequencies that are shorter than the baffle dimension will "bounce" off the baflle, similar to how bass frequencies of a subwoofer are reinforced when placed in a corner or against a wall.
Most speakers are designed for placement out from walls a few feet...some speakers, like wall mounted or in-wall speakers are counting on this frequency reinforcement in the lower frequencies...If you placed them 2 feet out from a wall, they'd sound very bright, with a recessed midrange and far too little bass.
Against the wall they sound optimal.
Most wall mounted speakers I've seen are sealed, instead of ported in design, and have much higher tuning frequencies, so they won't play as deep in the bass area...fine for Home Theater, but not great for music unless a sub is used.

[nightflier]

Kexo,

I take it in-wall speakers are very similar to on-wall speakers in design, then?

As an alternate solution, how about those $599 magnepan speakers I see advertised in the mags here & there? I always thought that pannel speakers had to be off the wall.

Or how about Martin Logans? Or Vienna on-wall speakers? Can the higher pedigree make up for some of these shortcommings?

[kexodusc]

Based on the few I've seen, in wall speakers are more like "in between" on-wall speakers and normal speakers, but yes, you get the idea...

I know of one speaker that sounds fantastic and will work well close to a wall.. These are right up there with a lot of $700-$1000 speakers I've heard...except of course the lower bass response. The midange and top end is something else though:
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Echo/EchoInfo.htm

The complete kit is available with cabinets etc, I believe you can order them finished as well, you'll have to contact them.

Totem acoustic might be an option as well. The Rainmakers are great.

[nightflier]

Ah yes, the DIY option. Well I have yet to complete those PartsExpress speakers I bought. It's not that I'm lazy, but I am just swamped with spring-time projects around and outside the house that don't, unfortunately, involve a/v gear.

For now I'm looking for some quick & easy solutions to get me some music while I work on those other projects. Tried Meadowlark Swifts, Monitor Audio Golds, Infinity Preludes and then decided that towers were just too much trouble (with kids & pets). In the meantime I have a pretty awesome system sitting there with no speakers that really sound good (I'm using my old Klipsch RB5-II's, but they are not a good match). I did build a modular wall bookcase / stereo cabinet and put the equipment in it, so I can easily add a pair of bookshelf speakers to it, hence my post. I could also add or extend two of the shelves to put the bookshelf speakers on the outside of the cabinet, but then why not get larger, on-wall speakers?

This option is starting to sound more & more attractive as I'm thinking this through. I am intreged by the MGG-W maggies, but the 100-16000Hz numbers are not adequate. So I'm thinking:

- MG-MC1 (can they be mounted on the wall?)
- Vienna Webern (couldn't they make these a little less metallic-looking?)
- Martin Logan Scripts / Voyage (numbers not impressive & also not attractive)
- Axiom w22's (a little low-budget for my needs)
- Vandersteen VSM's (a little pricey for what you get)
- Vandersteen 2ce's (can/should these be mounted on a wall?)

Bottom line is, I'm hoping to find something off the floor and audiophile quality. Any recommendations / thoughts / ideas?

[kexodusc]

Tell ya what...go demo any speakers you like...in the store, ask the salesdude to place them within 6 inches of the wall...the closer the better. If you still think they sound good, buy them.

I did a short test with 3 speakers I own that were upstairs today with myself, my cousin, and my wife...Studio 40's, Axiom M3Ti's, ar.com's, and my Vifa/Scan-speak towers...all within 2 inches from the wall...they didn't sound bad, a bit thick in the midbass/midrange, but still listenable. They couldn't tell a difference in this very quick, crude test. The Studio 40's and Ar.com's I could notice small changes in tone, the Axioms, well, I don't listen to them enough to know how they "should" sound. I can't help but wonder if any speaker you buy made for wall placement wouldn't just be of such inferior quality that you're better off buying a good speaker and living with any bad placement effects. Let's face it, many people wouldn't know a +6 or -9 dB peak in FR was present anyway. Ignorance can be bliss.
Maybe in this case the pros would outweigh the cons?

Give it a shot.

[nightflier]

Kexo,

Thanks for the info. I actually don't like the way my Klipsch and Axiom speakers sound right against the wall. The rear port on both seems to affect sound quite a bit. Since my questions are deviating a bit from my original post, I'm going to repost in a new thread about on-wall speakers.