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superpanavision70mm
05-02-2006, 08:33 PM
Ok folks...Let's just pin these two box stores against each other in a 'lesser of two evils' thread. Comment and defend your position as to which of these two mega=chains is the better or lesser of two evils.

For me, Circuit City carries slighty better names, but usually does not have the quantities that Best Buy has. Both have terrible product knowledge.

Who will win? We are mainly looking at audio/video for this comparison by the way.

EdwardGein
05-02-2006, 08:53 PM
While I agree with you that the technical knowledge of the people I've dealt with at Best Buy has been a joke, there are alot more knowledgable people at Circuit City than you're not giving credit for. I'm not sure if the people at Circuit City are on Commission but they generally seem to work harder & can make pretty good comparisons of the products they have for sale. I also find the sales help there more friendly & helpful & they try to give you the best deal they can- ie. free delivery when they don't have too (in some cases), etc. Circuit City is alot less claustrophobic & in my opinion carries alot more & better higher end products. It is extremely easy to return merchandise at Circuit City as well as Best Buy.

I generally would recommend you go into Circuit City or Best Buy either knowing what you're planning to get ahead of time & buy the item without changing your mind (always ignore "we just got in the best ______ ever today") or taking notes on what you see at Circuit City & what the sales people say, then doing research at home & then buying the item when you're convinced its the best decision. In other words I wouldn't go in without a clue & immediately purchase what the salesman at Circuit City says without doing any research. Circuit City has an excellent independent review site of all its products by people who have purchased them & I find that site to be extremely accurate much more so then Amazon.com & there are alot of people reviewing an item not just one or 2. When 50 people give an item say a 4.8 out of a 5 (they also put in their comments), you know the item is a good one, etc.. Circuit City will also give you any difference in price if they or another store in the area sells the same thing cheaper within 30 days plus 10% more for you (Best Buy may do the same). I've found my experiences at Circuit City very pleasurable & bought my 34" HDTV there, my DVD recorder there, my computer, etc.

superpanavision70mm
05-02-2006, 09:13 PM
I stay clear of both places for various reasons. I have not had great service either place, which could be just where I live, but I somehow doubt I am the only one.

KaiWinters
05-03-2006, 05:39 AM
To me both are similar with BB having more in stock in general. There are some differences with product carried which is a very good thing. Return policies are fair in general based on my personal experiences...I just brought in a camera to BB for service, lens cap not fully opening, focus not working well, they sent it out saying maybe 3 weeks before you get it back. Got it back within 10 and it works perfectly now.

Staff, imo, are friendly and occasionally knowledgeable but often it is info through training hitting the "hot points" rather than hands on knowledge but considering both are staffed by part time "youngsters" lol I am satisfied and content. I do not expect them to have in depth knowledge. I generally go into those big boxes with more product knowledge and general knowledge because of my research.

GMichael
05-03-2006, 05:55 AM
While I agree with you that the technical knowledge of the people I've dealt with at Best Buy has been a joke, there are alot more knowledgable people at Circuit City than you're not giving credit for. I'm not sure if the people at Circuit City are on Commission but they generally seem to work harder & can make pretty good comparisons of the products they have for sale. I also find the sales help there more friendly & helpful & they try to give you the best deal they can- ie. free delivery when they don't have too (in some cases), etc. Circuit City is alot less claustrophobic & in my opinion carries alot more & better higher end products. It is extremely easy to return merchandise at Circuit City as well as Best Buy.



This may just be the area that you are in. Luck of the draw on who gets the better $8.00 an hour employee. When I was shopping for a new receiver about 15 months ago, I went into our local CC. I explained what I was looking for and what I wanted to spend. At the time I wanted the HK model they had. He explained that I was too old to hear the difference between hi-fi & low-fi. I should just get a Bose Lifestyle system because they sound much better anyhow.
Still have my issues with BB also though. They're a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to buy anything there.

shokhead
05-03-2006, 05:58 AM
BB just doesnt have anything in the audio part of any interest to me so if i have to,its CC.

JeffKnob
05-03-2006, 06:28 AM
I prefer Circuit City where I am. My local BB rarely has what I want instock. I usually have about a 50/50 chance of my item being in stock. The people there are not helpful and of course have no idea what they are talking about. CC is also questionable on their knowledge but they will go above and beyond to make sure I am satisfied.

kexodusc
05-03-2006, 06:31 AM
Ughhh...I've had bad experiences with both. On Saturday, I walked by Best Buy and was playing with some receivers. They had a Pioneer VSX-1015 model there. Anyway, some older guy was asking which model the saleskid would recommend. He said he liked the top model Sony or bottom model H/K.
The customer asked me my opinion after the kid left for a second, and I told him it the Pioneer was the best unit in the store IMO, at least value wise if not absolute performance. The kid came back and said those things are very underpowered, had trouble driving their low-end Polks, with much higher spec'd distortion blah blah blah, and that the Sony's were better.
I wanted to punch him. He was BS his way through it. I had a few days with one of those Pioneers, and it was anything but underpowered.
He started spewing the virtues of RMS power ratings, telling us how it was an acronym for som international standard tag... more BS. Not sure what his point was there, but I knew he was BS us...after 5 minutes of this I was about to slap the kid, so I just said I had to go...I can only hope buddy didn't buy the Sony the kid was pushing.

Another BB salesguy began helping me with receivers by asking me how many watts I wanted. Then he said, if you know anything about these things maybe you can teach me...
At least he was honest.

A few years back, some Circuit City guy told me Monster cables make a 15% difference in sound because of copper purity or some such nonesense.. And that they measure performance of cables as THD. I haven't been back to a Circuit City since.

But I've had some good experiences too...One BB sales lady knew a helluva lot more than I did about HDTV's when I was there awhile back. She answered every question I could throw at her, was quite aware of DVE and AVIA discs, service menu options, and the fact that the stores lighting made it very difficult to judge a TV's picture, hence relative comparisons were all we could do, etc. No BS at all. This lady either loved her job or had done her homework. She shouldn't be working at a Best Buy, that's for sure.

If I had to pick one, I'd pick whoever was cheapest. No loyalties here, it's what you'll do for me now that matters.

EdwardGein
05-03-2006, 07:29 AM
I think the main thing when shopping at either store is, if you haven't researched an item ahead of time, don't immediately buy it at either store based on what a salesman says. Instead do some research on it & then if you're satisfied, buy it. Albeit both stores do have good return policies, so you're not losing anything but your time if you want to return it, unless there is a restocking fee for a certain group of item.

robert393
05-03-2006, 10:33 AM
Neither.....I go there only on occasion to look around (I'm a very curious type). I suggest finding a reputable speciality shop, build a report with one of the more knowledgeable sales staff, and gain knowledge about higher end audio/video. Of course I would recommend being as loyal to them as they are to you. In-other-words, if they treat you right, you will recipocate by buying from them. Don't go to them and take all their info then go buy the items they "sold" you elsewhere......that's theft.

Robert

westcott
05-03-2006, 10:43 AM
All other things being equal, I prefer CC for one primary reason. They do not treat my like a thief when I leave the store like BB does by TRYING to search my bags.

I do not shop there or anywhere where they question my integrity.

paul_pci
05-03-2006, 12:17 PM
All other things being equal, I prefer CC for one primary reason. They do not treat my like a thief when I leave the store like BB does by TRYING to search my bags.

I do not shop there or anywhere where they question my integrity.

They both do it, but I don't think it's legal. I was reading on a "hate Fry's" website that a store cannot compel a customer to turn over a receipt or purchased goods unless they are charging said customer with shoplifts, excepting, of course, club retailers like Costco, where that "search" is stipulated to in the membership agreegment. But I'm not sure if this is true. Does anybody know with certainty the legality of compelling shoppers to produce a receipt and their purchases? I simply say "no" and keep walking.

shokhead
05-03-2006, 12:29 PM
Doesnt bother me like at fry's.

royphil345
05-03-2006, 12:39 PM
For audiio equipment... If I had no choice... I'd have to choose Circuit City for the speakers. Would probably look at the Yamaha receivers at Best Buy. I think similar performance and better value than most of the receivers Circuit City carries. Have seen some good deals on Pioneer Elite at Circuit City though. And if I remember correctly, many of the Yamaha models sold at Best Buy lacked preamp outputs which was a turn-off for me.

topspeed
05-03-2006, 12:45 PM
Like other's have said, CC & BB are fine as depots. IOW, it's a search & destroy mission where you already know what you want, where it is, and what it costs. If their price is OK, you buy it. The salespeople are pretty much just in the way. This is one of the reasons I was so disheartened when GoodGuys went by the wayside. Their staff was almost always very knowledgeable. When I was shopping for an AVR, the first question the GG salesman asked me was "What speakers are you using?" (Seriously, how many times does that happen?) When I told him, he went on to tell me about his personal Matrix 801/Classe set-up. Wouldn't you know, the guy was a bonafide audiophile. This was pretty typical, too. The guys there knew their stuff. If you hang out here, there's an excellent chance that you know a heckuva lot more than any BB or CC employee.

BB has Magnolia, but I haven't visited one of those yet. I'm curious if their staff is more informed than the normal zombie they employ? I would hope so, otherwise they are doing an incredible disservice to not only the lines they carry, but also to the customer. Can't you just hear the pitch, "These ML Clarity's are just like Joey & Chandler's from Friends! They are thin so they take up less floor space, they'll match your decor, and the holes in the screens make them more aerodynamic!"

Ugh.

The Denon 3803 was the last piece of gear I've bought from a B&M store (from that GG rep, :) ). Since then, everything else, which includes enough gear for a complete HT and separate 2 ch. rig, were purchased from a couple of boutique dealers. IMO, this is the only way to go.

Woochifer
05-03-2006, 02:48 PM
BB has Magnolia, but I haven't visited one of those yet. I'm curious if their staff is more informed than the normal zombie they employ? I would hope so, otherwise they are doing an incredible disservice to not only the lines they carry, but also to the customer. Can't you just hear the pitch, "These ML Clarity's are just like Joey & Chandler's from Friends! They are thin so they take up less floor space, they'll match your decor, and the holes in the screens make them more aerodynamic!"

The employees at the standalone Magnolia Audio Video stores are paid on commission, while the sales reps at the Magnolia Home Theater stores inside of Best Buy are hourly. Either way though, the Magnolia employees are generally a lot more experienced, not to mention better paid, than the typical BB sales reps working the floor. I know that in SoCal some of the former Good Guys employees that got laid off when GG canned most of their commissioned sales staff a couple of years ago now work at the Magnolia AV and Home Theater stores.

Best Buy acquired Magnolia about five years ago, which primarily operated in the Seattle area and had one of the best reputations in the industry for customer service. IMO BB did the smart thing by letting Magnolia operate as a standalone subsidiary, while integrating their distribution operations into Best Buy's network and starting an expansion into California. What BB learned from the standalone Magnolia AV stores, they applied to the Magnolia Home Theater ministores. The arrangement has apparently worked well because the Magnolia HT ministores started with two test stores a couple of years ago in San Francisco and Costa Mesa, and now I believe they've added Magnolia ministores to about 80 Best Buy stores nationally.

L.J.
05-03-2006, 03:59 PM
When dealing with BB you'd better hold onto your receipt for dear life.

I agree with the Magnolia comments. I purchased my Denon products from there and have auditioned speakers on several occasions. Their knowledge and CS were excellent.

BB sucks on the audio side. I tried to audition Klipsch their and it was a joke. They have the front speakers 3ft in front of you and the center and surrounds 3 ft above your head. CC is trying. The last time I went they had a section set aside for audtioning with a couch and nice theater like setting. Nothing like the audio rooms at GG but it's a start.

Eric Z
05-04-2006, 03:43 PM
Interesting opinions! I've received good service at both and I've received crappy service at both. I agree with many people here as stating they are decent depots- as long as you know what you're getting, you're in decent shape.

I don't think I've ever bought HT equipment there because I can usually find it cheaper elsewhere. I did buy some cables there and I think that's about it.

I like the CC buy my house because it's never crowded- not good for CC, but good for me.

Btw, CC used to work on commission, but I read in the paper a couple years back that program was discontinued- seems like they still aren't on commission because I'm not preyed on as I was before.

Fwiw, I had horrible experience with a Fry's employee one time. He was trying to tell a customer who was standing next to me there's no reason to upgrade to HD-DVD when it comes out because the current players will have the same quality (even with HD-DVDs). I guess you could run into service like that everywhere, unfortunately.

EdwardGein
05-04-2006, 04:54 PM
Fry's in LA is a total weird animal. There are some longtimers at the place that are incredibly well knowledgable but its hard for me to give an assessment of the place overall. I do use Fry's & Circuit City regularly to buy things but avoid Best Buy as much as possible best on experiences in the past at a store location 1000 miles away. All 3 of these places do have excellent customer returns departments.

superpanavision70mm
05-04-2006, 07:55 PM
I don't know if the commission thing is a good thing or bad thing. While I do enjoy the fact that they are not ALL OVER ME from the time I enter to the time I leave...I also miss the knowledgable people that worked on commission because it was one job that they could do and get paid decent for since they made money on what they sold. Perhaps that should be the subject of the next thread....commission vs. hourly wage? The experts that work at high-end shops work on commission as well.

superpanavision70mm
05-04-2006, 08:00 PM
One more thing....

Everyone keeps saying that Best Buy has great return service. I disagree. I have had quite a few incidents the most rediculous one happened when MGM released SILENCE OF THE LAMBS to DVD a few years ago. Best Buy in all their infinite wisdom decided to set the movies out without separating the widescreen from the full-screen versions. At this time they didn't do full-screen very much (2001). So, I just grabbed the movie without even thinking because both covers looked exactly the same. I got home 10 minutes later and as soon as I put it into my machine I knew it was wrong. 10 minutes later I was at Best Buy looking for an EVEN-EXCHANGE. Moron # 1 told me that they could not do an exchange since the items are not exactly the same. Moron # 2 told me that they do not do exchanges on open items. I was furious! I simply showed them my receipt and told them that literally 20 minutes ago I purchased the movie and that it was really their fault for not labelling better. Both items were the same price, so what's the big deal. As if this wasn't the biggest frustrating part....I happened to be at the time employed by a sub-company of Best Buy and was enabled to get their employee discount, so you would think that it would have been an easy deal. I ended up talking to two managers before finally getting my way in the matter. Talk about a stress tester!

Anyone else have a great story about either store???

drseid
05-05-2006, 01:36 AM
The employees at the standalone Magnolia Audio Video stores are paid on commission, while the sales reps at the Magnolia Home Theater stores inside of Best Buy are hourly. Either way though, the Magnolia employees are generally a lot more experienced,... than the typical BB sales reps working the floor.

Not *my* Magnolia inside my BB... The salespeople there were completely inept, and did not know what HD-DVD was when I asked for a demo a couple months back. They thought HD-DVD was an upconverting regular DVD player and offered to let me watch a demo on the other side of their store accordingly. This idiocy continued until I pointed out their error and walked them over to the demo HD-DVD player (that we were originally standing next to when I asked to see a demo of HD-DVD). Then they said that HD-DVD was actually Blu-Ray... I'll stop right there, but the errors went on and on... Maybe I just got a bad group of employees at my location.

All that said, while I really don't like any of Magnolia's audio stuff, their video stuff is pretty good quality if you know what you are looking for. As such, I would pick BB easily over CC in my area. Both stores have reps that are not worth the near minimum wage they earn, IMO. I try to avoid buying from either if possible.

---Dave

GTF
05-05-2006, 05:40 AM
I don't like either store.
They both have those booming boom box quality Home Threater system subwoofer
systems, blasting out that wonderfull dreadfull car audio type of
Boom boom thud, Boom boom thud, Boom boom thud bass.

What ever happened to true audio?
Boom boom thud, Boom boom thud.
Yea MAN can't hear that bass kick? bboooooooooom bboooooooom

LOL

GTF

emaidel
05-05-2006, 05:46 AM
[QUOTE=GMichael] He explained that I was too old to hear the difference between hi-fi & low-fi. I should just get a Bose Lifestyle system because they sound much better anyhow.
QUOTE]


You should have punched him in the nose!

I worked retail at the defunct chain Lafayette Radio for 14 years, and if I ever said anything like what this smartass said to you, I'd have been out on my ass so fast, I wouldn't have known what hit me!

While both CC and BB generally offer sales help with minimal product knowledge, and even less ability to keep up with trends, the American consumer himself is largely to blame for their success, and lack of product expertise. Americans seem to feel that they are owed the best (i.e.- "lowest") price on whatever it is they wish to buy, and simply won't pay more for something in one retailer, if another has a lower price on the same item, even if the former consists of courteous, knowledgeable salespeople, and the the latter is staffed with 17 year-old cretins.

If the American consumer were willing to pay for service (something I'm willing to do, and a few here at AR seem willing to do likewise), all the independent retailers CC and BB put out of business would still be around. But they're not.

The worst thing the consumer does is to shop a dealer who does have knowledgeable sales help, question the s**t out of the people there, and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. What's wrong with this picture?

EdwardGein
05-05-2006, 06:45 AM
I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough! First off, as previously said, if you know what you're buying ahead of time, a place like Best Buy is fine because you're not relying on a semi retarded teenager for help. As far as people with knowledge in independent stores, the ones who are, work at high end stores that aren't in competition with chain stores anyway, because chain stores don't carry their items. Places like Best Buy could still stay in business & make just as much money if not more, if they hired compotent people who'd they give commissions too & higher salaries. The offset is more people would shop at these stores because of customer service. Anyway, my experience as I said at Circuit City has been excellent in regards to customer service & Best Buy I try to avoid like the plague as it is not an enjoyable experience for me. The people at Circuit City I've noticed also tend to be older as opposed to the slobbering teenagers at Best Buy.

"If the American consumer were willing to pay for service (something I'm willing to do, and a few here at AR seem willing to do likewise), all the independent retailers CC and BB put out of business would still be around. But they're not. The worst thing the consumer does is to shop a dealer who does have knowledgeable sales help, question the s**t out of the people there, and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. What's wrong with this picture?[/QUOTE]

paul_pci
05-05-2006, 11:53 AM
All things being equal you might be right but all things are not equal when it comes to the retail availability of audio equipment. Let me begin with the example of the bookstore. I personally do not lament the demise of the independent bookstore because there is nothing that I can find at an independent bookstore that I cannot find at a megabookstore, but that is precisely NOT the case for audio equipment. Take the recent closings of the Good Guys stores. Now where are we to buy the mid-level Denon and Yamaha receivers? Not at BB or CC because they don't stock them. And not everybody buys their equipment from ebay. We can now only find them at Ken Kranes or Shelley's or other high end shops (I apologize for the So. Cal bias) that you don't care if they don't go outta business. Come on, you should know the equipment at the big box stores is laughable to people such as us and if you don't care for the demise of these indepedent stores, then where are we all going to purchase our equipment from?



I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough! First off, as previously said, if you know what you're buying ahead of time, a place like Best Buy is fine because you're not relying on a semi retarded teenager for help. As far as people with knowledge in independent stores, the ones who are, work at high end stores that aren't in competition with chain stores anyway, because chain stores don't carry their items. Places like Best Buy could still stay in business & make just as much money if not more, if they hired compotent people who'd they give commissions too & higher salaries. The offset is more people would shop at these stores because of customer service. Anyway, my experience as I said at Circuit City has been excellent in regards to customer service & Best Buy I try to avoid like the plague as it is not an enjoyable experience for me. The people at Circuit City I've noticed also tend to be older as opposed to the slobbering teenagers at Best Buy.

"If the American consumer were willing to pay for service (something I'm willing to do, and a few here at AR seem willing to do likewise), all the independent retailers CC and BB put out of business would still be around. But they're not. The worst thing the consumer does is to shop a dealer who does have knowledgeable sales help, question the s**t out of the people there, and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. What's wrong with this picture?[/QUOTE]

shokhead
05-05-2006, 12:37 PM
I thought i heard comp-usa was going to start having Denon?

EdwardGein
05-05-2006, 01:29 PM
You misunderstood my comments They were referring to generic independent stores that stock the same merchandise as Best Buy & Circuit City, not places like Good Guys or even Magnolia that carry mid level stock or better such as Denon. My attitude is if these stores carry the same merchandise as Circuit City & Best Buy but their prices are higher, I'm not losing sleep if they go out of business. Independent stores like Good Guys are not facing competition from bigger chains because they're selling different & high end product.

GMichael
05-05-2006, 01:44 PM
You should have punched him in the nose!

[/I]

I was in shock at first. But then I laughed and let him show me how great the Bose system was. Then I walked out and took my money with me.

Woochifer
05-05-2006, 03:30 PM
All things being equal you might be right but all things are not equal when it comes to the retail availability of audio equipment. Let me begin with the example of the bookstore. I personally do not lament the demise of the independent bookstore because there is nothing that I can find at an independent bookstore that I cannot find at a megabookstore, but that is precisely NOT the case for audio equipment. Take the recent closings of the Good Guys stores. Now where are we to buy the mid-level Denon and Yamaha receivers? Not at BB or CC because they don't stock them. And not everybody buys their equipment from ebay. We can now only find them at Ken Kranes or Shelley's or other high end shops (I apologize for the So. Cal bias) that you don't care if they don't go outta business. Come on, you should know the equipment at the big box stores is laughable to people such as us and if you don't care for the demise of these indepedent stores, then where are we all going to purchase our equipment from?

With regard to the bookstore analogy, that greatly depends on the types of books that you're looking for. Having lived in San Francisco and West L.A., it seems to me that the independent stores are much likelier to stock titles from indie publishers and do a better with stocking titles from specific genres. Whenever I visit SoCal, I try to make it down to Hennessey + Ingalls because there's no other store around where I live that has the depth of knowledge that they do with art and architecture books. And it's not just new books that can be special ordered by other stores, that store also makes a point of maintaining an inventory of titles that might have gone out of print. And throughout SF, the local bookstores not only sell books, but host events and book clubs and are just part of the neighborhood in a way that can't be replicated by a big megastore. It's no different than music stores that carry the top sellers, but also specialize in certain genres and titles that you don't readily find at Sam Goody or Tower or Borders.

With audio stores, events like Good Guys' demise do create temporary holes in the market, but it doesn't take long for popular brands like Denon and Yamaha get picked up by other retailers. In the L.A. area, Denon was already sold through Magnolia and Tweeter stores before GG went under. And it looks like Yamaha is also at Tweeter. Plus, there are other independent stores around L.A. that aren't necessarily high end such as Hollytron, Superco Home Theater, Valley TV, and yes, Ken Crane's. The L.A. market is big enough and wealthy enough to not only support a lot of independent stores that stock home theater equipment and directly compete with the big box chains, but a large number of higher end stores as well. Just look at how many independent audio and home theater stores there are in Santa Monica alone!

But, I think the real struggle is in smaller and/or less affluent markets. Places like Fresno and Bakersfield are more than large enough to support multiple electronics stores. However, in those places, the market support is not enough to sustain more than one or two other audio/home theater stores once BB and CC take their share. In those areas, Good Guys was by and large the only place within 50+ miles to buy something higher end than whatever BB or CC carried. Once they went under, that created a huge hole in the market. An independent store can easily step into the breach and fill that market gap, but if another chain like Magnolia comes into the market and divides the market, then that store will not have enough customers to stay in business by itself.

I don't think that independent audio stores will ever go away, but with the attrition that I've seen in the Bay Area in recent years, shoppers in the future might have to travel further to find the items that they're looking for. One thing to consider is that a lot of the specialty audio brands grant their retailers territorial exclusivity, so if one retailer goes under, the other stores in that territory can then try to pick up the brands that the defunct store carried.

emaidel
05-06-2006, 05:12 AM
I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough!

Not the most charitable opinion, but one you're entitled to nevertheless.

Nothing irked me more than having a customer pick my brain, week after week, on a particular piece of audio gear, only to realize later that this jerk bought it somewhere else for less. I made my living by selling equipment - not by explaining it for people to purchase that same equipment elsewhere from morons who know knothing at all about the product, or some mail-order place that simply posts a picture of an item, and provides a price. Service has its price, and it's most definitely not something a consumer "deserves" to use in one place, purely for the sake of taking advantage of it.

Recently, I was in an athletic shoe store, having been directed to this specific store by my podiatrist, as I needed a good pair of running shoes that would accomodate my arch supports needed due to a nasty case of plantar fasciitis. While I waited for a salesman, a young, male customer was trying on numerous pairs of shoes, and asking many, many questions about all of them while doing so. After completely wasting the salesperson's time for about 20 minutes, he left the store without buying anything. When I commented to the salesperson that that customer had a helluva nerve, the response was, "He's probably going to buy it online for less." so, it's not just the audio/video business where this crap takes place.

This is not "acceptable" behavior in my opinion, yet it's something many American consumers feel it's their "right" to do. For all who do this, all I can say is, "Shame on YOU!" It is also this particular mindset that has resulted in Wal-Mart being the largest retailer in the known universe. I flatly refuse to set foot in that place, but my "boycott" isn't having much effect. It's a matter of principle with me, and I think my principles are of a reasonably high order.

edtyct
05-06-2006, 06:12 AM
Amen, emaidel. The protocol at high end salons was always the same: If we spend an hour or two showing, explaining, and recommending a product to you, the right thing for you to do is to buy that product from us. The problem is that the element of trust, which was always a little tenuous, has been further eroded by internet sales and big-box discounts. Aside from the injustice of it, it's also a sign of a dumbed-down culture in which the sound and sight bite (marketing and PR) have taken the place of genuine information (in audio/video, it may be regrettable; in politics, it's obscene--but that's another story). Hell, a good book can be written on this subject, so I'll shut down before I start trying to write it here. But I will say that selfishness appears to be part of the human inventory. If a cheaper mousetrap exists, people will find it (or if people are interested in a cheaper mousetrap, one will find its way to them). It's not always a bad thing. But scale this naked tendency to match the size of the market, and you can see why the trustworthy, knowledgeable people first see their salaries fall and then their jobs disappear. It would be foolish to deny the webstores and the megastores their place, but the world hasn't changed for the better when excellence, knowledge, and personal interaction have lost whatever value they once had in a mass-oriented consumer society.

robert393
05-06-2006, 07:01 AM
I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough! Refer to post #10


Not the most charitable opinion, but one you're entitled to nevertheless.

Nothing irked me more than having a customer picking my brain, week after week, on a particular piece of audio gear, only to realize later that this jerk bought it somewhere else for less. I made my living by selling equipment - not by explaining it for people to purchase that same equipment elsewhere from morons who know knothing at all about the product, or some mail-order place that simply posts a picture of an item, and provides a price. Service has its price, and it's most definitely not something a consumer "deserves" to use in one place, purely for the sake of taking advantage of it..Refer to Post # 10
Last week a guy came into my shop in full military gear, took my best sales person, picked his brain for 2 hrs on what audio products, why those particular products, and how to install those products into his car, and why to install them in that manner. At the end of the 2hr question & answer session I came out of my office and asked the military man when he would like to schedule the install. He was very polite in telling me speciality shop prices were too high and he would never consider actually buying from me, but would use the info he had gathered to purchase online. I asked him why he even bothered coming in if he had full intentions of buying off the internet anyway. He said because the internet people knew nothing about the products and offered no support, and that we had a reputation as being the best shop in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. I told him he had just taken 2-hours from an employee thats pay is dependant upon his vast knowledge, his expertise, and his ability to generate sales from those years of knowledge and expertise. He then became indignant and responded "people come into my office (at base) all the time and ask questions, I still have to answer them, even though that's not what I'm paid to do". I just shook my head and tried to realize this guy is probably not the "sharpest-tool-in-the-shed".

People need to realize that knowledge, experience, expertise, and support come with a price and stop contibuting to the ever-expanding "dumb-down" of our society. What that military man did is considered theft in my book. As he left, I told him that too. Wonder where he will go next time he needs expert advice on his car audio....BB/CC?

Robert

Defshep
05-06-2006, 08:08 AM
As far as I know, Circuit City no longer gives employees commission sales...
Who's the best? Whoever has the lowest price on what you need. I like BB for their selection, because my local CC is in desperate need of an upgrade. Unfortunately, or maybe this is a good thing, we pretty much need to do our own research nowadays when making a decision on a purchase. I've learned alot more talking to you folks than I ever did from a BB or CC "knowledgable associate"!

slbenz
05-06-2006, 08:34 AM
My local Best Buy has a Magnolia Audio Video in the store. If I include the Magnolia, then I would say Best Buy wins because Magnolia had a higher level of selection, much more informative sales people and excellent customer service when compared to Best Buy proper and my local Circuit City. If I had to just compare the staff for knowledge and courtesy between CC and BB, CC would win in my area. Unfortunately, my local CC is smaller and fewer items to select than BB. Overall, I shop more at BB because of the greater selection and try not to utilize the staff their to answer my questions. I try to be a more self-sufficient shopper these days. Someone else in this thread mentioned Fry's, don't even get me going there. No help, no knowledge, poor selection and not in stock.

Slbenz

EdwardGein
05-06-2006, 01:42 PM
I totally agree with you its totally immoral to pick a salespersons brain for say 30 minutes or more if you don't have any intention to buy from the store & even more so to tell the salesperson you had no intention to buy from the store in the first place. My thinking is that is probably a fluke situation. On the other hand, I've had experiences going into high end stores & taking up say 45 minutes of a salespersons time & not finding anything I like enough to purchase even though he's kind of looking at me like I'm the schmuck. For that my conscience is clear. Usually if something looks promising, I'll ask for the salespersons card & if nothing I research is significantly higher, say no more then $25 if its local or $100 if I have to order online, I'll buy at the higher rate from the salesperson. But if I find its significantly cheaper, I'm not into charity.

thekid
05-06-2006, 04:44 PM
Well as far as the BB or CC debate goes I have had success at both of them. In my area the specialty stores do not exactly offer the high end audio equipment I see mentioned here but their prices certainly are high end. As far as BB/CC It all depends on what I am looking since there is certain equipment brands specific to each.

The megastore vs specialty store debate is one that for good or bad will be settled by the marketplace. In an era of flat or depressed wages the megastores seem to have the upper hand because they can offer price advantages the smaller dealer cannot match and while service is usually what will keep a customer, it is not usually what most people are willing to part with a few extra dollars to get. Megastores offer a minimum of service during the sale/selection process and emphasize service when there is a problem after the sale.

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. The death of the megastore may come when communities stop giving them building permits or at least severly restrict their size. For the specialty store the saving grace may be the e-market where they may be able to compete at a price advantage over the brick and mortar giants.

emaidel
05-08-2006, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=thekid]

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. QUOTE]

Good point: what in the world are we going to do with all those Wal-Mart mega-buildings when that chain ultimately goes under (which, in my opinion, can't happen soon enough)?

emaidel
05-08-2006, 05:40 AM
People need to realize that knowledge, experience, expertise, and support come with a price and stop contibuting to the ever-expanding "dumb-down" of our society. What that military man did is considered theft in my book. As he left, I told him that too. Wonder where he will go next time he needs expert advice on his car audio....BB/CC?

Robert

I couldn't agree with you more.

I once had a customer in the 70's pick my brain week after week about the Dynaco A-25 loudspeaker. There wasn't really that much to explain, other than the speaker needed a resonable amount of power, as it wasn't particularly efficient, and that we, at Lafayette Radio, routinely sold them for $79.95 each, and that that was a fair price.

This moron had me compare the A-25 to just about every other speaker we had in stock, until one day he came in asking about a new receiver since the one he had couldn't power up the A-25's he had just recently purchased elsewhere. He even had the audacity to ask me how to properly connect them, and basically, just how to use them. I walked away from him, and never bothered to answer another of his questions. Eventually, though it seemed to take months, he never came back. Maybe, just maybe, he got the message.

thekid
05-08-2006, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=thekid]

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. QUOTE]

Good point: what in the world are we going to do with all those Wal-Mart mega-buildings when that chain ultimately goes under (which, in my opinion, can't happen soon enough)?

E-

I am afraid in a world economy that is based on chasing the lowest labor costs from developing country to developing country their will always be a source for cheap goods until we have gone the complete circuit. This model will always allow the megastores to leverage price over service. Until people demand service and are willing to pay for it speaciality stores are going to have a tough go. Call it the "dumbing down" effect if you want but price has almost been the main driver except when it comes to coffee where we some how have accepted it as perfectly normal to pay $5 for double mocha whatever :)

jimmymagick
07-01-2006, 10:51 AM
The one--and only one--thing BB has going for it is that they have eliminated rebates. You get the sale price at the checkout counter.

That being said, I do like CC's website for research on consumer products. For what it's worth, it's good to see how their customers have rated products--especially when they give it a highly negative rating.

elcoolmagnifico
07-20-2006, 06:29 PM
Hey, everyone. I am new to the site. Please hear me out. :)

I am a supervisor for a Best Buy HT and soon to be a Magnolia Sup. I just wanted to let you know that there are a few of us out there in the "box stores" that really would like to give customers a great experience. I drill my guys every day on product knowledge and how to ask the right questions to get the customer everything they need.

Although I am not perfect, I do bust my @$$ every day to not only make money for my company, but help out our clients. In our defense, we are handcuffed a bit by our talent pool. I have managers over my head that insist on hiring the "hot, stupid chick" or the "drunk frat kid". All I can do is ride those employees until I can ship them off to pimp iPods or car stereos.

I'm not defending BB as a whole or even excusing myself. I am just making it clear that some of us care. The only people that I put the screws to are people who try and use my well-trained staff to get the knowledge and then go over to ABT or Joe's Tube Shack and geta plasma for cost. Those are the scum-of-the-earth that always come back crying that their half-retarded brother couldn't install everything. For them... I double my install rates because "we have to uninstall Bubba's mess".

Sorry, but the first timer had to rant even though I can feel your pain. Thanks for listening.

Price hunters can eat me,

El Cool Magnifico

shokhead
07-21-2006, 05:47 AM
Give us an example of what you say to drill your guys?

Resident Loser
07-21-2006, 07:01 AM
...well in advance, if either store has it and offers a good price I walk in and say "I want that", pay for it and done deal...I hardly need barely post-pubescent, high-schoolers giving me their expertise...

Walked into CC while researching a mini-system (Onkyo's MC35TECH...quite good BTW), was approached and told the salesman the speakers were out-of-phase and asked if he could rewire them...he looked at me like I was from another planet and grudgingly pulled the dimunitive bookshelf speakers out and guess what? Out-of-phase...totally dumbfounded he was...

I do my research quietly, take up no one's time but mine and have enough experience to formulate my own opinion...

jimHJJ(...ultimately, a store is simply a place to buy things...now more than ever...)

P.S. Had high hopes for Magnolia...visited my local BB/Magnolia location...what a disappointment...tons of big screens, coupla' dozen Tivoli radios and one pair of smallish MLs...where's all the good stuff?...

elcoolmagnifico
07-21-2006, 07:33 AM
I was asked how I "drill" my guys.

My employees are trained first on the basics. They have to know how a preamp and amp work. They have to know how DLP, LCD, LCoS, and plasma work. Things like that are the foundation of a good salesperson.

Once they have explained how everything works to my satisfaction, then I train them on how to sell. I have been in sales for a long period of time and I feel I have a wealth of know-how to give these guys. 8 out of 10 customers that blow off my guys and say they know everything end up coming to my guys for some answers. I tell my guys that people need their space respected, but if someone's in the department for an hour without checking out... they likely need a hand and can't get over themsleves long enough to ask for help.

As far as these "mom and pop" stores that people seem to pine for, have you actually been to them? I secret shop every CE retailer within miles of us. Half of the little guys don't know anything more than we do about the product, and none of them have anything in stock... ever. Sometimes it takes weeks for them to get in a plasma that I have sitting in topstock. I know that that's partially our fault, but that's how free enterprise works.

I'm sorry that I'm long-winded again, but I wanted to be clear that these fantastic little stores are far too hyped. If you look hard enough there will be a HT department in a big store that can help you out. For those of you who go in and know everything about everything (most of you seem to feel that way), why even bother with us? Just go to an online clearance bonanza site and pay 2% above cost. Those sites are very reputable (wink).

Keep hope alive... and consider Vienna Acoustic Mozarts... I'm in love with mine.

El Cool Magnifico

shokhead
07-21-2006, 07:51 AM
So ya think we are better off paying for the overpriced A/V in CC? I can tell you i am low man around here knowing about this stuff and the people that are in the BB and CC by me dont even know about DVD-A,SACD or DualDisc.Clueless. Surprised?

markw
07-21-2006, 08:02 AM
First off, the only way to deal with these two stores is to know what you want before going in. Don't ask any questions.

Second, once that's settled, simply go for the one with the better price.

Finally, if someone reads this forum and still has to depend on their sales staff for their info, well, there's not much more I can say ...

Woochifer
07-21-2006, 08:13 AM
P.S. Had high hopes for Magnolia...visited my local BB/Magnolia location...what a disappointment...tons of big screens, coupla' dozen Tivoli radios and one pair of smallish MLs...where's all the good stuff?...

Uh, did you venture into all of the demo rooms? The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores around here put the Martin Logan Montage, Fresco, and Clarity models (along with some of the on-wall speakers from other companies) in one room, while the other demo room has the Def Tech, Boston, M&K, and Vienna speakers.

Otherwise, if you want to see some of Magnolia's other product lines, like Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Primare, B&K, Pro-ject, and the higher line Martin Logans, you have to visit the standalone Magnolia Audio Video locations, which for the time being are only on the left coast. The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores only carry a limited selection of the full lineup at the standalone Magnolia Audio Video stores and are not aimed at two-channel enthusiasts. As implied in the name, their product selection serves the home theater market.

GMichael
07-21-2006, 08:24 AM
Uh, did you venture into all of the demo rooms? The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores around here put the Martin Logan Montage, Fresco, and Clarity models (along with some of the on-wall speakers from other companies) in one room, while the other demo room has the Def Tech, Boston, M&K, and Vienna speakers.

Otherwise, if you want to see some of Magnolia's other product lines, like Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Primare, B&K, Pro-ject, and the higher line Martin Logans, you have to visit the standalone Magnolia Audio Video locations, which for the time being are only on the left coast. The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores only carry a limited selection and are not aimed at two-channel enthusiasts, as implied in the name, their product selection serves the home theater market.

The two Magnolia rooms I have seen here on the right coast have been pretty small. Maybe they will grow with time. The smallish ML's were the top of the line from what I saw. Most of the BB's in this area don't even have a Magnolia section yet. We must not rate.:cryin:

Woochifer
07-21-2006, 08:29 AM
Hey, everyone. I am new to the site. Please hear me out. :)

I am a supervisor for a Best Buy HT and soon to be a Magnolia Sup. I just wanted to let you know that there are a few of us out there in the "box stores" that really would like to give customers a great experience. I drill my guys every day on product knowledge and how to ask the right questions to get the customer everything they need.

Although I am not perfect, I do bust my @$$ every day to not only make money for my company, but help out our clients. In our defense, we are handcuffed a bit by our talent pool. I have managers over my head that insist on hiring the "hot, stupid chick" or the "drunk frat kid". All I can do is ride those employees until I can ship them off to pimp iPods or car stereos.

I'm not defending BB as a whole or even excusing myself. I am just making it clear that some of us care. The only people that I put the screws to are people who try and use my well-trained staff to get the knowledge and then go over to ABT or Joe's Tube Shack and geta plasma for cost. Those are the scum-of-the-earth that always come back crying that their half-retarded brother couldn't install everything. For them... I double my install rates because "we have to uninstall Bubba's mess".

Sorry, but the first timer had to rant even though I can feel your pain. Thanks for listening.

Price hunters can eat me,

El Cool Magnifico


Welcome to the site. Yep, your stories about the hiring practices are very similar to what I hear about managers at these audio/video stores. The Magnolia Home Theater stores in California were able to pick up some of the former Good Guys staffers, and it seems that their directives from above put more emphasis on finding qualified sales reps.

AVMASTER
07-21-2006, 08:44 AM
[Once they have explained how everything works to my satisfaction, then I train them on how to sell. I have been in sales for a long period of time and I feel I have a wealth of know-
As far as these "mom and pop" stores that people seem to pine for, have you actually been to them? I secret shop every CE retailer within miles of us. Half of the little guys don't know anything more than we do about the product, and none of them have anything in stock... ever. Sometimes it takes weeks for them to get in a plasma that I have sitting in topstock. I know that that's partially our fault, but that's how free enterprise works.

true, but then again why would we stock lose-leaders and chinese knock -offs? Those of us that are doing custom installation don't stock much because one plasma model does not fit all situations; or any other piece of gear for that matter! All the training in the world can't change attitude, do your "guys" care, are they enthuaists, is electronics a passion or hobby for them? Do any of your " guys " attend CES, CEDIA, manufacturers training, or even subscribe to a real trade magazine?

Resident Loser
07-21-2006, 08:48 AM
Uh, did you venture into all of the demo rooms?...The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores only carry a limited selection of the full lineup at the standalone Magnolia Audio Video stores and are not aimed at two-channel enthusiasts. As implied in the name, their product selection serves the home theater market.

...I visited was an alcoved area within a BB...more of an afterthought it seems...Even if not catering to us stereo enthusiasts, it would still be nice to see some of the higher-end stuff without having to clean the snot off my shoes after visiting a salon...

jimHJJ(...the same ol' same ol' gets boring...)

IRG
07-21-2006, 09:30 AM
This has been an interesting thread for sure. I like BB, at least the one near me. Sure, I understand some of the complaints, but the folks in my store are pretty competent. It's not audio gear, but I just bought a $1700 fridge from there, and the service was stellar. They went out of their way to try and get what I needed as fast as possible. Better than Sears (where my previous firdge lasted a whole 2 years) where although the sales people were very good, the delivery time was poor (2 weeks). Hey, when your nearly new fridge isn't working, waiting 2 weeks to get a new one is not going to happen.

As for AV, I have found that BB has been pretty knowledgeable. I usually go to the same people who I have recognized over the last couple of years (store is relatively new). I don't go and ask questions for hours, only to buy over the internet, I do buy locally. My local mom and pop shop is very knowledgeable, and they carry higher end brands, but they are far from being a salon. Just a bunch of people who like the hobby and make living selling it.

This is a tough business. Profit margins are pretty thin, and employee retention is fairly non existent in retail. And yeah, add in ebay and the online retailers and it gets more competitive. And add in all of the changes in technology, especially with video, and consumers are often times bewildered. Even those of us who view this as a hobby can get confused at the options and models to choose from. Blame the manufacturers I guess, but this is life. You don't move forward, you die pretty quickly.

I live in small community, college town, smaller than where many of you live. I do advocate buying locally if at possible. WHether it's BB or the local M&P, support those who live and work in your community vs the online retailers who don't. Although I look at places like vanns.com and onecall.com unless I can't find the same product locally, I try my best to stay local. If you aren't happy with your local BB or CC by all means complain to someone in the organization. I know if BB went belly up here, our community would be worse off without it. That's how I feel anyway.

elcoolmagnifico
07-21-2006, 09:36 PM
true, but then again why would we stock lose-leaders and chinese knock -offs? Those of us that are doing custom installation don't stock much because one plasma model does not fit all situations; or any other piece of gear for that matter! All the training in the world can't change attitude, do your "guys" care, are they enthuaists, is electronics a passion or hobby for them? Do any of your " guys " attend CES, CEDIA, manufacturers training, or even subscribe to a real trade magazine?


I am aware that some small stores have a staff full of pationate sales people, which I cannot compete with. On the flip-side of that, please do not mask your stocking issues with attacks on our products. We carry one off-brand plasma in my store and I sell it as infrequently as possible. Your claim that not every plasma fits individual needs also works against you. While you have to order a set for an installation and wait days or weeks to get it in, I can pull the set from my stock and have it on their wall by the end of the day. I readily admit that I cannot maintain the quality of staff that you do. Please do not spin the facts about the faults of the small stores.

In a perfect world I would own my own AV retailer and have a well-rounded and respected staff. I am one of the many who have realized that BB and CC are here to put small stores out of business. I feel that, rather than fight a losing battle, I should join the dark side and try to improve it.

My guys care... or they're fired,

El Cool Magnifico

AVMASTER
07-23-2006, 05:53 AM
i can not speak for all the small shops that are doing retail only but for those of us doing custom installation work it requires a different inventory model; The term "custom" dictates specialized parts and equipment to fit a specific application. For me to stock these items and hope it applies to the next fifty customers is not economical; on the other hand i do stock everything in our showroom for retail traffic, just not in the quantities that you do, so if i had to slap a plasma on the wall on the same day i could but thats not the business i'm in. Your comments on the dimise of small shops by the likes of BB or CC is at the very least premature; when and if BB/CC carry the likes of Wilson speakers or employ degreed professionals then i might consider joining to the dark side too.

I applaud your efforts in trying to make a difference within a business model that does not require it, but judging from the responses on this thread the small shops still have a place in this world.

eisforelectronic
07-23-2006, 05:34 PM
I worked at CC for several years and have quite a few friends who still work there. I can tell you that the way I was trained when we were commissioned salespeople is a far far cry from how the employees are trained now. I had more than a full week of training 8hrs a day before we set up and opened our store. They covered key technologies of each brand as well as a structured selling system. They gave brief background on the development and history of all key companies we carried as well. We were expected to not only to be able to tell a customer about a product, but also a little bit about the company that made it. They had monthly audio and video newsletters that highlighted new product, new technology and even had a list of suggested demo material. At that time CC was very focused on customer education and presentation of technology.

When CC layed off their top sellers, they switched from comission to hourly sales people. My friends still try to maintain a little bit of what we learned as new salepeople, but a lot of the kids they hire now just don't get it. It doesn't matter how many times my friends try to train the new people, the newbies will still pull out a rap/hip hop cd to demo a speaker no matter who the customer is(even grandma and grandpa). As far as BB goes, it seems like they have harvested their hires from the same crop as the current CC employees.

By the way CC is dropping Infinity and Harman Kardon in favor of Boston, Kef, Denon, and Mitsubishi. This move of course makes CC even more similar to BB. So much for having some diversity between the two.

emorphien
07-23-2006, 10:15 PM
they're dropping H/K? stupid but oh well

DaveJ
07-31-2006, 05:34 PM
This is very interesting that this comparison was brought up on this forum. I have done business with both stores for various reasons. Here is what I found. First off, I have had no really serious issues with either one as far as returning a product is concerned. For me, though, returns have been few and far between. I find that Circuit City tends to have many more display products working than Best Buy so you can try them out before buying. For example, I needed a replacment receiver since my existng one decided to act up. Circuit City had an "open box" receiver hooked up and working. The price was reasonable. I tried it out and it was fine (for my needs). I bought it. Yet,the Best Buy that also visited didn't have much of anything working that night. So, I didn't buy my recever there. Circuit City's prices seem to be more clearer than Best Buy. I also found Circuit City to be a lot less noisy than Best Buy.

superpanavision70mm
07-31-2006, 06:25 PM
I don't know about anyone else's area, but near me (Pittsburgh region) the Best Buy and CIrcuit City stores do not seem to be targeting Home Theater anymore. They don't have rooms set up like they once did for listening to speakers and/or watching large TV's with the surround setup. Usually these rooms are located in the farthest region of the store and very few people travel there anyway. If these stores actually had a clue...they could set things up quite well and demo things for people in a very professional way. They could certainly do the same for HD-DVD and Blu-ray instead of the 'ghetto' setups that I have seen lately with them. Despite the fact that both stores carry low-end to semi-medium products...that doesn't mean that they have to set it up in such a way. If they want to truly sell the stuff than they should invest the time and money into making it look like something someone would want. Maybe if they did this they could stop trying to push "Rags" like Entertainment Weekly on me every time I check out of the store.

texlle
08-01-2006, 04:21 AM
Best buy carries those Athena audio speakers, and I thought they were some of the best sounding speakers they had there, even better than the JBL which I thought were the best speakers they carried at one point. However, best buy has continually pissed away my business with their horrid customer service. CC stocks everything as a warehouse where they have a huge back area where they keep their stocked items. And their brands aren't too bad either. They carry Onkyo, HK, and even had one of those new Samsung blue ray dvd players. And I find the people at CC, on the whole, are usually more knowledgeable about their products than BB. I dunno, perhaps it is just my area, but I choose CC.

superpanavision70mm
08-01-2006, 07:13 AM
It's the mindset.

I have had experience in the past with similar companies and with the executive powers that run these places and the bottom line is this. It costs much more to pay a 'specialist' for these stores to sell audio and video products. Instead, it's easy to pay some average person with only a small knowledge base. However, selling 'add-on' stuff at the register is a much more profitable situation for the execs, so that is the primary reason why you can't find decent help even if the materials that they sell are good.