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Smokey
04-29-2006, 05:10 PM
This is very interesting.

Mexico's Congress approved a bill Friday (president said he will sign it) decriminalizing possession of small amounts of marijuana, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin for personal use. Officials say they hope the measure will allow police to focus on large-scale trafficking operations rather than minor drug busts.

Although this bill maintains criminal penalties for drug sales, criminal charges will no longer be brought for possession of up to 25 milligrams of heroin, 5 grams of marijuana (about one-fifth of an ounce) or 0.5 gram of cocaine.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-drugs29apr29,1,5883658.story?coll=la-headlines-world

JoeE SP9
04-29-2006, 05:36 PM
That won't stop them from coming here illegally!:cool:

KaiWinters
04-30-2006, 04:01 AM
In my best "Cheech Marin" voice...."ROADDDDDD TRIPPPPPP"

shokhead
04-30-2006, 05:22 AM
Is that place fuc$ up or what. I read the illegals what free college for there kids because its to $$$$. Ya know what,we just might pay for that. It seems whatever they demand,they get.I dont know what the heck is going on but i'm starting to have a real bad attitude towards the whole thing like fuc$ them,send them all back. I know that not very nice but i'm getting there.I wonder how this would be going is they were going to Cuba,China,Russia,France,Germany.

JohnMichael
04-30-2006, 05:43 AM
They need to leagalize drugs and be controlled by legitimate business and government. Then their people will not be so anxious to come to the US. They will be getting rich off of the tourist trade. The US will be coming to them. If they get us stoned they will be able to charge whatever they want for a taco.

shokhead
04-30-2006, 06:31 AM
If they cared about jobs and middle class,they would built along the 100's of miles of beachfront that has nothing,nothing but sand along there coast. The jobs they could create,the tourist money coming in,all that and they doing nothing for as long as i can remember. I dont get it.

Florian
04-30-2006, 07:31 AM
Cuba,China,Russia,France,Germany.

Actually we are trying hard to kick out the Turks, Russians, and Africans. Nothing against them, but this is Germany and this country is for Germans. Go and get some free money elsewhere!

PAT.P
04-30-2006, 08:51 AM
Actually we are trying hard to kick out the Turks, Russians, and Africans. Nothing against them, but this is Germany and this country is for Germans. Go and get some free money elsewhere!Flo my 2 spouse is from Czech and Im glad that she immigrated in Canada.When they came here they work as soon as possible.Was Czech land part of Germany at one time and Germany let the people behind?

Florian
04-30-2006, 09:00 AM
Flo my 2 spouse is from Czech and Im glad that she immigrated in Canada.When they came here they work as soon as possible.Was Czech land part of Germany at one time and Germany let the people behind?
No but we spend the most money in the world council for people around the world. We are the most economically supporting country in the world and have one of the largest imigration numbers in the world (for our size). If they stay in germany and work, thats fine with me. But if you are in my country and live from my tax payments and ruin our schools then i have a clear saying. **** off!

I welcome everyone as long as you dont take advantage of our systems and bother my sibblings in school, which reminds me of the HIGH criminal ratings in Berlin schools which are 80% immigrants and 20% germans,

PAT.P
04-30-2006, 09:32 AM
No but we spend the most money in the world council for people around the world. We are the most economically supporting country in the world and have one of the largest imigration numbers in the world. If they stay in germany and work, thats fine with me. But if you are in my country and live from my tax payments and ruin our schools then i have a clear saying. **** off!

I welcome everyone as long as you dont take advantage of our systems and bother my sibblings in school, which reminds me of the HIGH criminal ratings in Berlin schools which are 80% immigrants and 20% germans,These problem are in Canada also.Some of them are a burden to the country and think we owe them.They come here with their problem and they become are problem.They say we need immigrant because of aging population and nobody to replace the workforce.They jump the line for work,housing,training while there Canadian people on Welfare and no work experience.I just dont get this.:incazzato:I was looking on immigrant in Germany and it is a large amount from1991 to 2003 14.2 millions and your unemployed stands at 10.5% that would get me mad too:incazzato: Our unemployment stands at 6.3% a 32 year low.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
04-30-2006, 04:26 PM
Is that place fuc$ up or what. I read the illegals what free college for there kids because its to $$$$. Ya know what,we just might pay for that. It seems whatever they demand,they get.I dont know what the heck is going on but i'm starting to have a real bad attitude towards the whole thing like fuc$ them,send them all back. I know that not very nice but i'm getting there.I wonder how this would be going is they were going to Cuba,China,Russia,France,Germany.

Small and corporate business owns this country let's face it. They want the cheap labor, but complain that our schools are not turning out a quality workforce. This is bullcrap if I ever smelled it. How on one hand do you hire a worker that can barely speak english, and yet say that a person who graduates high school isn't good enough? Or how can you say that American worker won't take certain jobs, and forget to add they won't take them at minimum wage? Business in this country likes cheap labor, and they will lie, cheat, and turn on the American people to get it.

The reason why they get what they want is because our politicians have sold this country out for a vote, and the very wealthy cannot live without their maids, gardeners, and babysitters. The wealthy, hotels, farming, and construction are the blame for all of this by skirting immigration rules, paying under the table, turning their heads on false social security cards and ID's, and avoid paying for workman's comp insurance, and payroll taxes. Anyone who would sit there and tell you that they pay taxes is only half truthful. Most of the time they pay no taxes, and are payed under the table so the company doesn't have to pay payroll taxes or workman comp. This way the they do not rise above the radar, and into the Feds eye.

I am really angry and sickend by this whole fiasco. As a hispanic with a British mix, I am sorry to see the cheapening of American citizenship being used as amnesty for criminals. I am sorry I am not PC, but when you enter a country illiegally, you are a criminal.

Can any tell any country in this world (except the cesspools of civilized society) that you can jump a fence illegally, come into a country, and demand a drivers liscense and citizenship on the spot just because you found a job illegally?

Let's talk about the Mexican government. They recieve about 20 billion dollars a year in wire transfers originating from this country from legal, and illegal workers in this country. That is money that circulates within the economic system of Mexico. They absolutely do not want to see more difficult immigration rules, mass deportation back to their country, and certainly not a wall and military that would prevent illegal from coming. This would be a tremendous blow to the Mexican economy. The Mexican government has been trying to influence our lawmakers for their gain for years. And guess what? They have.

As a whole, I don't think the American people really care about the security of their country, or they would be screaming bloody murder about this. They are however way to busy shopping and consuming to realize that they are no more secure or protected than they were before 9/11. With our southern door wide open, any terrorist could simply jump that fence and do their handy work.

I see many illegal mexicans on our streets protesting, where are the American people demanding that they do immigration like everyone else has. Why do Mexican think that have a right to be here illegally? A recent poll taken in Mexico by AP found that 58% percent of the Mexican public in the poll believed that they have a right to be here illegally. Where do they get this right, and why is it not extended to Carribean Latins (my folks), Asians, Europeans(also my people), and Africans?
The reality is this isn't just mexicans, but central Americans as well.

Resident Loser put this in the most accurate way I have seen yet. This isn't immigration, this is an invasion, and we are passively letting this happen. Pretty soon they will lay claim to California as their territory, instead of ours.

This is not a racial thing for me and I hate that it is being framed that way. This is a issue of a right way to do things, and the wrong way. Right now we are rewarding the wrong way, and this is a slap in the face to my grandmother who immigrated from England, and my great grandfather who came here from Puerto Rico. I have to let this go, the more I type, the more pissed I get about this.

Florian
04-30-2006, 05:09 PM
I agree to that in everyway and we have this problem in germany also. Keep germany for germans, America for Americans, and Italiens for Italy. This Multi-Culti Mix doesnt work. But the rights movement is starting again in germany and we are getting mighty pissed at our goverment and illegal imigrants. And we dont mess around! Interesting thing is, that its the same in italy, Holland, England and many more!

shokhead
04-30-2006, 05:12 PM
If you speakup about it your labled a racist. Saw a protest for the illegals and across the street they were against it and the were being labled racist. I dont care if 10 million come here,just do it the right way and dont tell the US how they want it,they dont have that right yet. I understand you cant round up 10 million people{it wouldnt be right doing that anyway} but something like register and show proof of work and rent/own a place you live and i dont know,stay out of trouble for 3-5 years? But that still screws the people doing the right way that takes what,5,6,7 years and a ton of other stuff they are suppose to do. I dont know,its a tought one but the demanding really pisses me off.

noddin0ff
05-01-2006, 06:14 AM
Keep Americans for Americans? The US owes its success to Multi-Culturalism. If the US becomes Xenophobic like some of our European counterparts, THEN we have big problems. But I'm all for legal immigration. Maybe if the US imported more products from Mexico that'd create better jobs there?

Florian
05-01-2006, 06:17 AM
Keep Americans for Americans? The US owes its success to Multi-Culturalism. If the US becomes Xenophobic like some of our European counterparts, THEN we have big problems. But I'm all for legal immigration. Maybe if the US imported more products from Mexico that'd create better jobs there?

Yes, my example doesnt work for the US because the culture and history is based on a multi culture mix. But its impossible in europe, since each of our countries has a LONG history, deep cultural roots and you cant mix us in a bag on our small place. I still stick to my point about the multi culti mix in europe but the US is quite different.

Bernd
05-01-2006, 06:42 AM
I agree with Flo on this one. The US model does not work in Europe and what is a real shame is that Europe has not learned from the costly mistakes made by the US concerning emigration.
In the late 60s and 70 we had jobs a-plenty and an active recruitment drive happend for turkish and yugoslavien workers. To my mind the mistakes cames from the blase' attitude of not actively integrating the foreign workforce. So now we have a third generation people who do not know where they belong and as jobs become scarce, anger is vented at the foreign people who of course retaliate.
The migrants who come under false pretence are different headache all together. Take muslims from Africa. Why don't these poor people end up in another muslim country, but choose instead christian places? Surely Saudi-Arabia or the Emirates with their wealth could support these muslim bretheren. But there not. Why not?

Peace

Bernd:17:

noddin0ff
05-01-2006, 07:26 AM
It's too bad, too. Becuase most modern European countries have very low birth rates and are going to experience some serious negative growth soon. With out an influx of cheap labor your economies are going to suffer. If you 'keep Germany for Germany" etc. you're going to hit some real hard times and you won't be able to support the high degree of socialized benefits you all love so much.

I was reading recently about the incentives Germany is considering offering to promote babies. Apparently you give mother's two years off, but Mother's can't really return to work because daycare/childcare isn't offered past 1pm. So you don't really encourage women to enter the work force and have families. The incentive I read about was to offer cash for babies, and the part that amazed me was that the cash incentive was income based, with greater incentives going to WEALTHIER families! That stuck me as so very Germanly rational. A proposal like that in the US would end a politicians career.

Anyway, if modern countries want to compete, they need to move past their long histories...

Florian
05-01-2006, 07:38 AM
Well, in America a career ends when the public wants to know which President had sex with what worker. :-)

Seriously tough, that IDEA has not been passed and in our country we have a lot more political ideas, actions and number of people with something to say. Its a real Democracy in every way and this idea will get an update for sure.

Our social systems would work if we didnt spend billions on every person who leeches of us. We get invaded from the Turks, Muslims, Russians etc and this brings down our social system. Not to mention all the money the UN, Jews, Africans etc. get from us. Germany is a global power, espc. Technological wise with some of the biggest industrial quality brands in the world. We wouldnt have this problem if we stopped kisses the worlds butt and focus on our own country men.

The integration is a huge problem, when i lived in the US i learned english! When i visit France, i try very hard to use the dictonary. When a Turk visits Germany, he takes our money, gets Free **** nonestop and doesnt give a crap about our culture, language and simply leeches of us like a Parasits (not all but the majority). Russians do the same thing and so does Poland. After the WWII we were not allowed to be proud of our country anymore, but times are changing fast!

Everytime i see a Turkish women in a headdress on the street is pisses me off, Germany is a FREE country and WOMEN and MEN are equal here! We dont want our children growing up thinking its ok that the women is only there for sex and cooking. And yes, this Muslim and Jewish crap (we are the chosen race) doesnt fly here either.

Either adapt to our culture or leave. My point!

Bernd
05-01-2006, 08:00 AM
Yep, inetgration should mean exactly that. Not the guest country bending over backwards to the detriment of the native citizens.That breeds a feeling of inequality.
And I take "noddinoffs" point we all need input from other countries but please contribute and don't go to another country and want something for nothing.

Peace

Bernd:6:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-01-2006, 09:44 AM
Keep Americans for Americans? The US owes its success to Multi-Culturalism. If the US becomes Xenophobic like some of our European counterparts, THEN we have big problems. But I'm all for legal immigration. Maybe if the US imported more products from Mexico that'd create better jobs there?

Yes we owe our sucess to multiculturalism. The important point left out is that is was LEGAL multiculturalism, not someone sneeking over your back fence and into your yard.

I am not arguing against LEGAL immigration, I am totally against ILLEGAL immigration, and a reward of citizenship for jumping the fence.

We do not owe any country the action of supporting their economy. Since NAFTA american business especially car and retail have move jobs out of this country, and relocated to Mexico in search of cheaper labor. We are not obligated to buy from any nation just because they are impoverish, and their government doesn't feel the need to take care of its own people. Mexico is our second largest trading partner, with that, why do we need to obsorb folks that cannot get a job in Mexico? I completely understand the symbotic relationship we have with Mexico, but I am also seeing Mexico incroaching on our own soveignity, and when you have 5-12 million people here ILLEGALLY in this country, you canot help but feel Mexico is using the power of immigration to hyjack our nations policies and politics. In other words a full scale invasion.

I am a BIG supporter of immigration. But it has to immigration done right, not wrong and rewarded with amnesty. I am for a guest worker program as long as the rules are followed. If the rules are not followed, and they stay longer than the program allows, I am for having them arrested as criminals. I am sick and tired of education visa (like the ones the 9/11 terrorist used), guest worker, temporary, and temporary work visas being abused by foreigners to this country. I am unwilling to support any more policies that are abuseable with no enforcement to support them. Overstay your visa, or guest worker program, and either deportation or jail awaits you. Arrrrrrrggggggg!!!

Resident Loser
05-01-2006, 10:33 AM
Yes we owe our sucess to multiculturalism. The important point left out is that is was LEGAL multiculturalism, not someone sneeking over your back fence and into your yard.

I am not arguing against LEGAL immigration, I am totally against ILLEGAL immigration, and a reward of citizenship for jumping the fence.

We do not owe any country the action of supporting their economy. Since NAFTA american business especially car and retail have move jobs out of this country, and relocated to Mexico in search of cheaper labor. We are not obligated to buy from any nation just because they are impoverish, and their government doesn't feel the need to take care of its own people. Mexico is our second largest trading partner, with that, why do we need to obsorb folks that cannot get a job in Mexico? I completely understand the symbotic relationship we have with Mexico, but I am also seeing Mexico incroaching on our own soveignity, and when you have 5-12 million people here ILLEGALLY in this country, you canot help but feel Mexico is using the power of immigration to hyjack our nations policies and politics. In other words a full scale invasion.

I am a BIG supporter of immigration. But it has to immigration done right, not wrong and rewarded with amnesty. I am for a guest worker program as long as the rules are followed. If the rules are not followed, and they stay longer than the program allows, I am for having them arrested as criminals. I am sick and tired of education visa (like the ones the 9/11 terrorist used), guest worker, temporary, and temporary work visas being abused by foreigners to this country. I am unwilling to support any more policies that are abuseable with no enforcement to support them. Overstay your visa, or guest worker program, and either deportation or jail awaits you. Arrrrrrrggggggg!!!

...something else on which we agree...

jimHJJ(...will wonders never cease?...)

markw
05-01-2006, 01:39 PM
...something else on which we agree...

jimHJJ(...will wonders never cease?...)I agree with both Jim and Sir T.

and, no, multi-culturalisation in it's purest form will be the death of this country. In the past. various ethnic groups came here with skills to offer and a desire to blend in. nowadays, they all want to have their own separate identities and ghettos.

Now, identities can be maintained and they can still blend in with mainstream Americia. My wife and inlaws are first and second generation Brasilians who came here to blend in and did so. Why should anyone else have problems?

You come here, you play OUR game. don't expect us to play yours.

After all if their country was so great, why did they leave it in the first place?

GMichael
05-01-2006, 02:00 PM
Don't get me started on this subject again.:incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-01-2006, 02:02 PM
...something else on which we agree...

jimHJJ(...will wonders never cease?...)

Jim,
We have disagreed about so much, the law of averages says we are bound to agree about somethin! LOLOL

I think quite a few Americans agree with us. What puzzles me is why WE are not being heard instead of the illegals? It seems their voices are being amplified over ours, or we are too afraid to speak out. I got my chance when channel 4 stuck their microphone in my face. I am sure they were not ready to hear what I had to say, and they probably won't broadcast it either. I when I told them I was a Latin/english mix, their eyes popped out of their heads!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-01-2006, 02:05 PM
Don't get me started on this subject again.:incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Boy, do I know how you feel.

Florian
05-01-2006, 03:29 PM
What puzzles me is why WE are not being heard instead of the illegals? It seems their voices are being amplified over ours, or we are too afraid to speak out.

Not me and my friends, we say get out all you lazy Turks, Russians and Jews and every single other Leecher. And if your a lazy german Bastard, then get off your ass and work!

:-)

The problem is the "political correctness", i never apply that to me.

GMichael
05-01-2006, 03:45 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Boy, do I know how you feel.

I did my share of typing on this subject here. http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17112&highlight=wave

If I start up again I'll give myself heart burn. When was the last time you saw me post anything that long?

shokhead
05-01-2006, 04:38 PM
What have i heard today. USA's fault that Mexico is poor.
USA stole the Southwest and they are taking it back.
US wants to take there kids away from them.
Is it immigrant protest or illegal immigrant protest? I keep hearing immigrant protest but the legal immigrant dont have anything to protest and if your illegal you dont have that right.

markw
05-01-2006, 05:14 PM
What have i heard today. USA's fault that Mexico is poor.
USA stole the Southwest and they are taking it back.
US wants to take there kids away from them.
Is it immigrant protest or illegal immigrant protest? I keep hearing immigrant protest but the legal immigrant dont have anything to protest and if your illegal you dont have that right.Nobody here has any problems with legal immigrints. It's those that
sneak in and drive down joe sixpack's wages to the point that hte can't make a decent living from a day's work. IOW, it's not that local's won't do the jobs, but that illegals will do them for much less underthe table with no bennies or taxes.

this link brings up a good point towards the end about that. Likewise, there's a quote from a leader comparing what 's going on thday to when America broke off from England. .. .a bit off context, doncha think?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotests/index.html

noddin0ff
05-02-2006, 06:24 AM
Nobody here has any problems with legal immigrints. It's those that
sneak in and drive down joe sixpack's wages to the point that hte can't make a decent living from a day's work. IOW, it's not that local's won't do the jobs, but that illegals will do them for much less underthe table with no bennies or taxes.

Sounds to me more like an issue of American employers not playing by the rules. Why do you suppose they aren't hiring American workers?

GMichael
05-02-2006, 06:33 AM
Sounds to me more like an issue of American employers not playing by the rules. Why do you suppose they aren't hiring American workers?

They don't hire American workers because they want fair pay and bennies. Once the "undocumented" alliens get documented, they too will want fair wages and bennies. Then the employers will want new undocumented alliens to work for $2.00 an hour. It's the American employers that created the market. But they are not alone in being wrong.

Resident Loser
05-02-2006, 06:45 AM
Sounds to me more like an issue of American employers not playing by the rules. Why do you suppose they aren't hiring American workers?

...on the first...Some of the names mentioned in reporting of the demonstrations were: Cargill, Tyson and Goya foods...maybe if the stupid, silent majority opened it's mouth once in a while and boycotted these companies and took to task their government lackeys...On the second: management prefers to deal with people who have no recourse, that's why...

My wife has suggested that all of the workers who are sick to death of across-the-board high prices, deteriorating quality of life, etc.... for all of us that pay the freight...maybe WE shouldn't go to work one day and give 'em all a great big f*ck y*u...I wonder how a little anarchy from we poor shlubs would be greeted? What if we didn't show up, or get on buses, or buy lunch or be there to sell the lunch?...

I can't for the life of me figure out how those who have been through the process and done things to the letter of the law can now support some sort of fast-track BS...

If anyone calls for such a coordinated action, I'd be first in line...

jimHJJ(...unfortunately, no one probably will...)

GMichael
05-02-2006, 07:42 AM
...

I can't for the life of me figure out how those who have been through the process and done things to the letter of the law can now support some sort of fast-track BS...




My wife, for one, gets crazy about it. She's about as nice a person you could ever meet, but when she sees this on the news, words come out of her mouth that I can't use here.
I can't see why anyone who has done it by the book would support this BS. But every day, someone says or does something that completely eludes me. Some people use pretzel logic. Can we get them signs?

shokhead
05-02-2006, 08:20 AM
Do you think the illeagals will still have the same jobs when they become legal,no. Owners are not going to pay the the fair wage and health insur,thats why they hire illegals.
Mexico doesnt want them legal,less of our money going into Mexico. Very strange someone breaking the law,being illegal and then demanding this and that and saying we dont want to. How the hell does that work?

GMichael
05-02-2006, 08:51 AM
It's the American way. We are so busy trying to bend over backwards that we don't notice that we are being shafted. And by we, I don't mean you and me. I mean the fanatics who have nothing better to do than to fight for causes that don't have anything to do with them. They feel it's their duty to save the world at any cost. I don't mind saving things. But sometimes the results are worse than the original problem.

markw
05-02-2006, 11:25 AM
Sounds to me more like an issue of American employers not playing by the rules. Why do you suppose they aren't hiring American workers?They sneak in and the only way they can get jobs is to work for lower than the going rate.

but, since they are afraid of complaining and the INS, they willingly go along with it.

Illegals don't deserve shiite. no free medical. no instant citizenship for their kids. no school for their kids. no nothing. nada.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-02-2006, 12:06 PM
It's the American way. We are so busy trying to bend over backwards that we don't notice that we are being shafted. And by we, I don't mean you and me. I mean the fanatics who have nothing better to do than to fight for causes that don't have anything to do with them. They feel it's their duty to save the world at any cost. I don't mind saving things. But sometimes the results are worse than the original problem.

Just a thought, and maybe a flip side to this argument.
Perhaps we are all in a very indirect (or direct) way contributed to all of this. We want everything cheap. The reason that businesses goe for the cheap labor, is to keep costs down. The reason jobs are moved out of this country and to China and other cheap labor countries is to keep costs down. This is in response to our desire for cheap products. When we desire cheap, somebody has to pay, and usually it is us.

There was a time in this country's history that we demanded quality products. Since we usually made the highest quality products right here it usually mean't buying American products. Our businesses flourished, our quality of life was very high, and life in America was very prosperous. Somewhere down the line we began to crave cheap products, and as we did, we saw jobs began to go elsewhere, and businesses began scrambling for ways to cut costs. Obviously if you don't want to use cheap materials, then you have to use cheap labor and streamline your way to get products to the market.

A hotel room, restaurants, our produce, food, and many products we buy would be unaffordable for many of us without cheap labor. Is the answer to this a guest worker program for a limted amount of time? I could live with that, but amnesty is out of the equation for me. Been there, done that, and things didn't change one bit. They still came, there were still false ID's and social security cards, and those who lost their jobs ended up on the dole.

I want to go after the businesses that hire illegals full force. You hire them, you could possibly lose your company. With the stakes that high, they'll check ID's, social security cards, and whether they wiped after the last time they used the bathroom. It is only when the stakes get that high will we see some sort of change in behavior. Just a thought, and if you want to, flame away :mad:

GMichael
05-02-2006, 12:27 PM
Just a thought, and maybe a flip side to this argument.
Perhaps we are all in a very indirect (or direct) way contributed to all of this. We want everything cheap. The reason that businesses goe for the cheap labor, is to keep costs down. The reason jobs are moved out of this country and to China and other cheap labor countries is to keep costs down. This is in response to our desire for cheap products. When we desire cheap, somebody has to pay, and usually it is us.

There was a time in this country's history that we demanded quality products. Since we usually made the highest quality products right here it usually mean't buying American products. Our businesses flourished, our quality of life was very high, and life in America was very prosperous. Somewhere down the line we began to crave cheap products, and as we did, we saw jobs began to go elsewhere, and businesses began scrambling for ways to cut costs. Obviously if you don't want to use cheap materials, then you have to use cheap labor and streamline your way to get products to the market.

A hotel room, restaurants, our produce, food, and many products we buy would be unaffordable for many of us without cheap labor. Is the answer to this a guest worker program for a limted amount of time? I could live with that, but amnesty is out of the equation for me. Been there, done that, and things didn't change one bit. They still came, there were still false ID's and social security cards, and those who lost their jobs ended up on the dole.

I want to go after the businesses that hire illegals full force. You hire them, you could possibly lose your company. With the stakes that high, they'll check ID's, social security cards, and whether they wiped after the last time they used the bathroom. It is only when the stakes get that high will we see some sort of change in behavior. Just a thought, and if you want to, flame away :mad:

I have to agree with everything here. We have shot ourselves in the foot. Where do more people shop than anywhere else? Wal-Mart. Who employs the highest number of illegals in the US? Not sure here, but wasn't it Wal-Mart who had some 200,000 or 300,000 working for them? All in the name of lower prices. But if you give these people amnesty, then they won't want to work for less either. And then the gates will be flooded with people looking to get in knowing that there is no penalty for breaking the law. H.ll, they even get rewarded. Why fill out paperwork and wait in line if you can just sneak in and get it faster for free?

Edit: There are programs available where aliens can come here and work legally. These people are willing to work for some pretty low wages too. But they filled out the paperwork and filed with the authorities.
Some people do things by the rules. Other people skip the rules and still want special attention.

Smokey
05-02-2006, 01:22 PM
I see my post got high jacked from legalizing drugs in Mexico, to immigration issue. So I am going to chime in..... :D

In my opinion, four issues should be address about immigration (legal and illegal) to get it under control:

First and formost, the borders should be controlled as to stop illegal crossing (this might be easier said than done).

Second, restrict and down size immigration from other countries, including legal immigration.

Third, give amnesty to undocumented aliens (after extensive background and criminal check). This not only be fair to immigrant, but also to business community. Amnesty will only work if the first above issue (border control) is also addressed simultaneously. One canít work without the other.

Fourth, pass tougher law concerning hiring illegal aliens. Create a system where employer can check on the status of employee for work eligibility.

GMichael
05-02-2006, 01:31 PM
I see my post got high jacked from legalizing drugs in Mexico, to immigration issue. So I am going to chime in..... :D

In my opinion, four issues should be address about immigration (legal and illegal) to get it under control:

First and formost, the borders should be controlled as to stop illegal crossing (this might easier said than done).

Second, restrict and down size immigration from other countries, including legal immigration.

Third, give amnesty to undocumented aliens (after extensive background and criminal check). This not only be fair to immigrant, but also to business community. Amnesty will only work if the first above issue (border control) is also addressed simultaneously. One canít work without the other.

Fourth, pass tougher law concerning hiring illegal aliens. Create a system where employer can check on the status of employee for work eligibility.

When you say amnesty, do you mean, we won't throw you in jail but start filling out the paperwork? Or do you mean, no problem, you're citizens now and don't worry about the forms?

Smokey
05-02-2006, 02:00 PM
When you say amnesty, do you mean, we won't throw you in jail but start filling out the paperwork? Or do you mean, no problem, you're citizens now and don't worry about the forms?

I meant the former :)

shokhead
05-02-2006, 03:57 PM
I see my post got high jacked from legalizing drugs in Mexico, to immigration issue. So I am going to chime in..... :D

In my opinion, four issues should be address about immigration (legal and illegal) to get it under control:

First and formost, the borders should be controlled as to stop illegal crossing (this might be easier said than done).

Second, restrict and down size immigration from other countries, including legal immigration.

Third, give amnesty to undocumented aliens (after extensive background and criminal check). This not only be fair to immigrant, but also to business community. Amnesty will only work if the first above issue (border control) is also addressed simultaneously. One canít work without the other.

Fourth, pass tougher law concerning hiring illegal aliens. Create a system where employer can check on the status of employee for work eligibility.

How long do you think it would take to check out the background of 12,000,000 people? Do you think illegals will keep there job after they become legal,fair wage in insur? Nope.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-03-2006, 05:21 AM
I see my post got high jacked from legalizing drugs in Mexico, to immigration issue. So I am going to chime in..... :D

In my opinion, four issues should be address about immigration (legal and illegal) to get it under control:

First and formost, the borders should be controlled as to stop illegal crossing (this might be easier said than done).

Second, restrict and down size immigration from other countries, including legal immigration.

Third, give amnesty to undocumented aliens (after extensive background and criminal check). This not only be fair to immigrant, but also to business community. Amnesty will only work if the first above issue (border control) is also addressed simultaneously. One can’t work without the other.

Fourth, pass tougher law concerning hiring illegal aliens. Create a system where employer can check on the status of employee for work eligibility.

Smoke,
Amnesty doesn't work, we have tried this before in 1986. When we addressed this issue back then mass amnesty was granted to all illegals. I did nothing to stem the tide of illegals coming here, most refused to sign the necessary papers for fear of deportation, and lastly it spurred fraud on a massive level with false ID's and social security cards

I am personally against rewarding anyone for breaking the law. These people knew when they came here that it was illegal to do so. They believe that have a right to be here, even illegally. I do not want to reward this kind of mentality, I would like to correct it. There needs to be a dose of reality, illegals have few if any right here. They need to understand that this behavior of making demands as guests here is a big turn off.

On Monday I had a interesting ride home on BART. When I arrive in downtown Oakland there were protestors everywhere. As I was exiting a gentleman tried to hand me a flyer. I refused it. I thought at that point I thought the whole thing was over, but he continued to rant about me supporting latino immigrants. I explained to him that I am a son of a latino immigrant, and grandson of immigrants, but they came here LEGALLY. The didn't try and skirt the system, they went through the entire processes, paid fees, waited, waited some more, paid more fees, had doctor checkups, paid more fees, and were finally granted citizenship. I asked him does he think that illegal immigrants now here should get a pass when others didn't . I gave him this analogy when I told him this whole thing is going to backfire in their faces.

Let's say you go on vacation. I break into you house, eat your food, drink your beer, clean your house for 2 weeks while you are gone. When you return, I demand that you allow me to stay in your house because I cleaned it while you were gone. I asked him would you allow me to stay? He says no, and I said that is how I feel. I explained that illegals broke into my house, and are now working in it, and I want them to leave now. He says we do work that other won't do. I returned with I agree with a guest worker program, but no citizenship for illegals because they broke the law. He said that's not fair, I asked what's not fair. We are scratching your back, you are scratching ours, and we do not owe you any more than that. When the work season is over, you go home. Citizenship is for those who will go through the process, not for folks who jump over fences. He tried to cuss at me in spanish, I cussed back in spanish and surprised him totally. I explained that its this arrogance that is turning off the American public, and that they are rude guests in my country and walked away. We never raised our voices, but the intensity was there.

shokhead
05-03-2006, 05:36 AM
Well i just heard this morning they wont take anything less then amnesty.

GMichael
05-03-2006, 05:47 AM
Well i just heard this morning they wont take anything less then amnesty.

I won't take less than $1,000,000. When are they sending it?

bobsticks
05-03-2006, 06:28 AM
Well i just heard this morning they wont take anything less then amnesty.

Or what? What exactly do they believe their recourse to be?

Perhaps more ineffective "boycotts" that serve to alienate them from those who
previously were open to debate on the subject.

The arrogance it outrageous.

bobsticks
05-03-2006, 06:55 AM
[QUOTE=GMichael] Where do more people shop than anywhere else? Wal-Mart. Who employs the highest number of illegals in the US? Not sure here, but wasn't it Wal-Mart who had some 200,000 or 300,000 working for them?

I find myself in the singular position of defending WalMart in this instance. I never imagined that I would be in that position.LOL...
WalMart employs a mil, maybe a mil and a half. There's no way a full one-third of there employees could be illegal. I work for a pretty big corp. as well and in our warehousing facilities OSHA positively crawls up our a$$e$ all the time. Are they looking for faulty machineries or forklifts? No, they're looking for pallets stood on their side which is a couple thousand dollar fine for each. They do so because the company has broad shoulders and can withstand the fines. At ten thousand dollars a head, even the mighty WalMart would be fined out of existence with 200,000 or 300,000 illegals. And the govt. would do it too--WalMart is not popular within political circles. I can remember, at one point, WalMart gettin' the business for a few hundred illegals in the southwest that were employed by a subcontractor and were never verified---I think they cleaned the floors.
For the record, I can think of MANY reasons to kick WalMart squarely between the legs but fair is fair. If I wanted to flay WalMart I would start with the seven hour wait at the cash registers...or the two employees on their salesfloor at night, neither of whom will speak to you because they're on their cellphones:incazzato:
FWIW if we want to counter the "we do the jobs you won't" assertion, we probably need to examine our welfare system that effectively allows those who do not work and/or pop out illegitimate children every nine months the opportunity to make as much money as an introductory job. Welfare was meant to help people get back on their feet, not as a way of life.

GMichael
05-03-2006, 07:22 AM
[QUOTE=GMichael] Where do more people shop than anywhere else? Wal-Mart. Who employs the highest number of illegals in the US? Not sure here, but wasn't it Wal-Mart who had some 200,000 or 300,000 working for them?

I find myself in the singular position of defending WalMart in this instance. I never imagined that I would be in that position.LOL...
WalMart employs a mil, maybe a mil and a half. There's no way a full one-third of there employees could be illegal. I work for a pretty big corp. as well and in our warehousing facilities OSHA positively crawls up our a$$e$ all the time. Are they looking for faulty machineries or forklifts? No, they're looking for pallets stood on their side which is a couple thousand dollar fine for each. They do so because the company has broad shoulders and can withstand the fines. At ten thousand dollars a head, even the mighty WalMart would be fined out of existence with 200,000 or 300,000 illegals. And the govt. would do it too--WalMart is not popular within political circles. I can remember, at one point, WalMart gettin' the business for a few hundred illegals in the southwest that were employed by a subcontractor and were never verified---I think they cleaned the floors.
For the record, I can think of MANY reasons to kick WalMart squarely between the legs but fair is fair. If I wanted to flay WalMart I would start with the seven hour wait at the cash registers...or the two employees on their salesfloor at night, neither of whom will speak to you because they're on their cellphones:incazzato:
FWIW if we want to counter the "we do the jobs you won't" assertion, we probably need to examine our welfare system that effectively allows those who do not work and/or pop out illegitimate children every nine months the opportunity to make as much money as an introductory job. Welfare was meant to help people get back on their feet, not as a way of life.

OK, you are right. My faulty memory screwed me again. Looks like it was only 300 instead of 300k. Missed by that much. But the idea was the same. We want lower prices, employers want to lower their expenses so they can compete. "Look, here are a bunch of people who are just happy that we aren't turning them in. I bet they'll work for less." Shame on these employers (whoever they are).
That doesn't excuse the illegals.

bobsticks
05-03-2006, 07:33 AM
[QUOTE=GMichael

That doesn't excuse the illegals.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely correct GMichael.

GMichael
05-03-2006, 08:05 AM
You're absolutely correct GMichael.

Huh? Me right? Someone call my dad. He won't believe it. Neither will my wife for that matter.

Feanor
05-03-2006, 03:39 PM
Small and corporate business owns this country let's face it. They want the cheap labor, but complain that our schools are not turning out a quality workforce. This is bullcrap if I ever smelled it. How on one hand do you hire a worker that can barely speak english, and yet say that a person who graduates high school isn't good enough? Or how can you say that American worker won't take certain jobs, and forget to add they won't take them at minimum wage? Business in this country likes cheap labor, and they will lie, cheat, and turn on the American people to get it.

....

As a more or less impartial observer, (Canadian), I agree with you on all points.

On of the more effective thing that the US Goverment could do would be to make it a crime for an employer to hire a worker without proof of legal residency, and enforce this on employers large and small. How come we don't hear much about this -- I think your paragraph above explains the reason in full. :sad:

shokhead
05-03-2006, 07:26 PM
Whats a small business? Less then or no more then how many? To me a small business is less then 10.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-04-2006, 08:24 AM
Whats a small business? Less then or no more then how many? To me a small business is less then 10.

I always thought that small business was 20 employees or less. However I believe that everyones standards of small business are very different.

shokhead
05-04-2006, 09:20 AM
Like the gov. I think they belive when they talk about small business being the backbone and all that,they mean 100 or so. When i think about it its 10 or less,the ma and pop business which are all but gone.

rob7
05-06-2006, 12:02 PM
--You did not then possess or present a valid immigrant visa, reentry permit, border crossing identification card, or other valid entry document, to wit, you have entered into the United States illegally with the intent to reside in the United States.--

'Arrr ju talkeeng to me?'