First post, Paradigm CC370 question

[kelinsky1]

Hello everyone.
This is my first post, though I've been to these forums many times, I just got around to regestering.

I've got a question about my center speaker, I'm using a Paradigm CC370, along with Paradigm Studio 100 fronts, and Paradigm Titans for rears. These are going through a Denon 1805.

I really enjoy the 2 channel, but when watching movies, the center is really 'muffled'. You can't really understand what people are saying. I've tried different channel volume settings on the Denon, and different locations for the speaker.

I'm about to the point where I think the center is defective and needs replaced, or maybe getting a different brand even though I've tried to keep all the same. I'm not even sure that maybe the Denon doesn't have a problem. I work away from home all week, but am planning on hooking up another speaker as the center to see if it's muffled.

Has anyone else had this problem with the CC370?

Just curious if I'm the only one or if someone may have any suggetions.

Thanks in advance, and glad to finally be a regestered member.

[N. Abstentia]

Definitley hook up another speaker to see if that fixes it. One of your Titans should be fine.

If you do get a new center, get the Studio Center speaker as it matches with your Studio 100's..the CC370 does not timbre match with your Studio's.

[kelinsky1]

Thanks Abstentia, I'll try the titan this weekend.
Just can't figure if the CC370 is a fault or the Denon?
Thanks Again

[Wireworm5]

I have the 370 and I have no problems. But as already mentioned the 470 is a better match for the studios. Personally I think your Denon is the problem as I had the same issues when I was using my Sony DE-975. If your receiver has a center channel equalizer you can try adjusting the levels on that to improve the sound.
Also the 100's are a power hungry speaker, I suspect you'll notice a big improvement in them as well with a better receiver one that can handle a low impedance load. Ideally you want a power amp for them to really make them sing.
When I was using my Sony in a bi-amp configuration to power the woofers on the 100's. It just sounded like ass. I also tried and older JVC stereo receiver, same results. Finally I just powered everything with my Yammie without bi-amping and it was able to power these speakers.

[Woochifer]

A couple of things first, have you tried level matching the center speaker yet and how is the speaker positioned? Those are the first things to account for. I would strongly suggest that you use a SPL meter to calibrate the levels all the way around. Depending on how the center speaker is positioned, the level might be off by a lot.

And with regard to the positioning, you want to try keeping the tweeters at roughly the same level. If you can't do this (and most setups with a TV in the middle can't), then you might need to try pointing the speaker down or up towards the listening position. Also, if your center speaker sits inside of an enclosed entertainment unit, then that will also create intelligibility problems.

As others have pointed out, another issue is that your center speaker is not the timbre matched model for the Studio series. The CC-370 is the matching center speaker for the Monitor series and because its timbral characteristics differ somewhat from the Studio series, it can create an interruption in the front soundfield.

If your Studio 100s are from the v.1 series, the matching center speaker is the CC-450. The Studio CC matches the main speakers in the v.2 series, and the Studio CC-470 and CC-570 are the matching center speakers for the v.3 series.

[kelinsky1]

Thanks for the response guys.
My 100's are v.3
I have the center sitting on top (not enclosed) of my TV (50" Sony). The front of the 370 is slightly angled upward and I am in fact going to move it to below the TV, and try this position, thinking that the angle will be more directly pointing toward my listening area/level.
I have played with the Denon and the ?Avia? Theater CD??, and tried to calibrate the volumes of the fronts & center, but have ony tried this 'by ear'. No meter. I've also turned the volume level for the two front 100s down quite a bit while turning the center volume up to almost max. This still leaves the center voice/dialoge almost non-understandable, (is that even a word???).

FYI : I've got the kids grown and gone...and the wife somewhat passive to my electronics/music addition...but she hates watching any movies because she can't understand them (neither can I)...and I can't afford to loose ground in my battle in convincing her that the money spent on "high dollar" equipment is worth it...soooo I appreciate any ideas or suggetions.

I appreciate the info on the 450 being a match for the 100's, as I wasn't aware of this. If I figure out it's the 370, I'll look into a 450. But I'm almost leaning towards the Denon as being the problem..I just can't imagine that the 370 would sound that much different than the other Paradigm I'm using...but maybe so.

If I figure out the Denon is the culprit..what suggetions would you guys have for a reciever? I thought the Denon was a good choice...but it sounds like maybe another brand would be better. Only thing is I'll need a phono plug for my B&O turntable.

Anyway, thanks again for your help, and I'll update this after I do some expermenting this weekend.
:cornut:

[kelinsky1]

Ooops,

Just noticed that you said the CC470 was the 'match' for my 100's.

[kelinsky1]

Well, after some reading on these forums..and checking my Denon setup..I had the 'compression' setting set to high.(turned it off) I also moved the center down under the TV..though this is temporary..I wanted to see what this position did. The center still doesn't sound 'perfect'..but it's a whole lot better.
We can at least understand the dialouge.
I'm still curious...so I'm going to try a Titan at center.

You guys have got my curiousity up now though...If I understand right..you're thinking the Denon may not have enough power to push the 100's? If you were looking for a new power source for my setup..what would you be looking for???? I don't think I can JUST look at the power rating...distortion???...peak power???

In looking back on my Denon purchase..I based my buy on reviews and reputation..Are you thinking Denon is still good for the 100's, only upgrade to a higher end Denon?? I see alot of good talked about Yamiha.

Anyway..thanks guys...great to be able to converse with others of like interest.

[kexodusc]

You guys have got my curiousity up now though...If I understand right..you're thinking the Denon may not have enough power to push the 100's? If you were looking for a new power source for my setup..what would you be looking for???? I don't think I can JUST look at the power rating...distortion???...peak power???

In looking back on my Denon purchase..I based my buy on reviews and reputation..Are you thinking Denon is still good for the 100's, only upgrade to a higher end Denon?? I see alot of good talked about Yamiha.

Anyway..thanks guys...great to be able to converse with others of like interest.

The type of speaker the CC-370 is makes it unsuitable for positioning above or below your ears even a few degrees off-axis. This is made worse by Paradigm's insistance on using 3rd over crossovers for these speakers. If there's no defect in the 370, a 470 will experience similar problems.

I struggle to believe the Denon is having a hard time driving your speakers unless you're playing them very loud. It's not the most powerful, but those are very efficient speakers that are friendly to amplifiers. Still, it might be worth the effort to borrow, or test another, larger receiver with your system to see if it's the culprit. I'm guessing it's not.

[kelinsky1]

Thanks kexodusc,

I don't play the 100's loud (I'm too old :6: ).
I'm actually having some reservations myself, that the Denon is at fault..but I'm anxiuos for others opinions non the less. It is a 'low-end' model.

I'm almost convinced, in my mind only, that the 370 just isn't 'movie dialouge' friendly. I haven't brought myself to try one of my Titans cuz I've got them wall mounted...and their a bi@#$ch to remove and install...so I think I'll borrow something from friends and try it.
I've also got access to an older Teac 5.1 that I may try (but their not home today)...so I guess I'll cont. to wait for ideas/suggestions and play with settings and placement some more.

[kexodusc]

I briefly owned the 370 before changing my mind and upgrading my whole system to the Studio line (dealer had a 30 day upgrade policy). I felt it was a very good center speaker, but you had to sit pretty much right in front of it, give or take a few feet. I'll be surprised if you prefer a Titan performing center channel duties...I wonder if it's just the Studio 100's sounding better, and thus making the CC-370 seem poor by comparison?

I'm sure you already have, but check the wire polarity, the speaker levels, delays, and possibly some volume dialogue boosting that your receiver and/or DVD player have. Like you found with the compression setting, these things have lots of goofball settings that tend to do more bad than good...Night mode is another one that I've found engaged on friends systems unbeknownst to the owner...

[uncyogi]

This still leaves the center voice/dialoge almost non-understandable, (is that even a word???).



.
:cornut:
I had the same "nonunderstandability" issues with my setup. I thought that I would be stuck with this problem until I spent some $$ as my center was a total mismatch for my fronts (each sounds good on it's own but they just don't play well together).
I eventualy tried playing around with the time alignment on my reciever. I originally Used a tape measure to be as accurate as possible with the speaker distance settings but aparently the calibration on my AVR is not so dead on. After a little trial and error tinkering my sound is still far from perfect, but a HUGE improvement none the less. Thought you might want to give this a shot yourself since it dosn't cost anything and if it dosn't help, at leaste it gives you an excuse to tinker.

[frenchmon]

Hello everyone.
This is my first post, though I've been to these forums many times, I just got around to regestering.

I've got a question about my center speaker, I'm using a Paradigm CC370, along with Paradigm Studio 100 fronts, and Paradigm Titans for rears. These are going through a Denon 1805.

I really enjoy the 2 channel, but when watching movies, the center is really 'muffled'. You can't really understand what people are saying. I've tried different channel volume settings on the Denon, and different locations for the speaker.

I'm about to the point where I think the center is defective and needs replaced, or maybe getting a different brand even though I've tried to keep all the same. I'm not even sure that maybe the Denon doesn't have a problem. I work away from home all week, but am planning on hooking up another speaker as the center to see if it's muffled.

Has anyone else had this problem with the CC370?

Just curious if I'm the only one or if someone may have any suggetions.

Thanks in advance, and glad to finally be a regestered member.

Need to know what you mean by muffled...center not loud enough or unable to understand what is being said???

I just checked Denon's web page and don't see the 1805...only the 1804. There is an 1905 receiver and the 1805 is listed as a CD player.

Anyways the CC370 is a very good center, and a reliable center. Even if you do have the monitor series (CC370) paired with the studio series(100's) there is not much of a tonal mismatch with this combination, and it should not be muffled at all. And if you do have the 1804 this receiver is sufficient to push those speaker with ease aswell as the 1905. Something is defective in your system...either you don't have it calabrated correctly or something is broken. Your best bet is to switch out the reciever or\and the center to find the problem. Please esplan what you mean by muffled???

Blessings.

frenchmon

[kelinsky1]

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas guys. I'm at work again..so I'll have to wait until this weekend to do some more tinkering.

frenchmon..by 'muffled' I mean it sounds like the background sounds coming thru the center, are overbearing the voice. It's hard to put into words...but the sounds other than voice are overriding the voice making the voice sound 'weak', or mixed with other sounds, and 'non-understandable' (there I go with that word again), or 'muffled'. Almost like the voice is coming thru a blanket or something.

Right now I've got all channels set to the same level (0), and by shutting off the "night setting" on the Denon, and positioning the center below the TV (the front of the center is angled up) where it's pointed more toward the listener, the center sounds much, much better...but it still isn't as 'clear' as I think it should be. I haven't yet, but I can turn the center up some and see if this helps.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon..by 'muffled' I mean it sounds like the background sounds coming thru the center, are overbearing the voice. It's hard to put into words...but the sounds other than voice are overriding the voice making the voice sound 'weak', or mixed with other sounds, and 'non-understandable' (there I go with that word again), or 'muffled'. Almost like the voice is coming thru a blanket or something.

Right now I've got all channels set to the same level (0), and by shutting off the "night setting" on the Denon, and positioning the center below the TV (the front of the center is angled up) where it's pointed more toward the listener, the center sounds much, much better...but it still isn't as 'clear' as I think it should be. I haven't yet, but I can turn the center up some and see if this helps.


If your muffled sound is what you said it is then my conclussion is that you have something plugged in wrong, or something is defective. Even though you have al your speakers set to 0db youshould not have the sounds you discribed.

frenchmon

[N. Abstentia]

I would definitely agree that the Denon is not powering your 100's as good as they could be.

But instead of replacing it, I'd add a nice outboard amp, like a 5x125 amp for your entire system and use the Denon as a preamp. Should make a good bit of difference.

[kexodusc]

You should have all your speakers level matched and delays set properly before anything. Do you have an SPL meter? Before buying a new amp or speaker, you should have a way of ensuring the levels are set properly. You can't do this by ear.

While I agree a better amp could bring the most out of your speakers, if you really don't play music above 80 dB or very often, even the most expensive amplifier isn't going to produce dramatic differences - unless something is wrong with the current receiver's operation. There might be more cost effective upgrades to your system that produce bigger, more audible differences. I'd upgrade the center channel to one of closer performance to your mains before buying an amp.

Just me though.

[kelinsky1]

After reading all the responses/ideas..I think my next step will be to buy a meter...and set my channel volumes correctly.

If after that...if I'm still not satisfied...I'll consider a new center, or add an amp...or both.

[Wireworm5]

There is another possibility which was discussed once before on another post. This is regards to Dolby processing. Since you haven't told us what your source is this maybe what you are experiencing.
When watching the Movie Private Ryan if I have my receiver settings incorrect I can't hear the dialogue. If I recall this was when using headphones. So check to see if your receiver is set to process a dolby signal.

[frenchmon]

You should have all your speakers level matched and delays set properly before anything. Do you have an SPL meter? Before buying a new amp or speaker, you should have a way of ensuring the levels are set properly. You can't do this by ear.

While I agree a better amp could bring the most out of your speakers, if you really don't play music above 80 dB or very often, even the most expensive amplifier isn't going to produce dramatic differences - unless something is wrong with the current receiver's operation. There might be more cost effective upgrades to your system that produce bigger, more audible differences. I'd upgrade the center channel to one of closer performance to your mains before buying an amp.

Just me though.


>>>>by 'muffled' I mean it sounds like the background sounds coming thru the center, are overbearing the voice. It's hard to put into words...but the sounds other than voice are overriding the voice making the voice sound 'weak', or mixed with other sounds, and 'non-understandable' <<<<

If his acenter channel is sounding the way he says it is, then something is defective, ya think??? I don't know of any settings that will fix that problem.

frenchmon

[kelinsky1]

Wireworm...The Denon is showing a "digital" signal, and usually "DTS". I'm running the audio thru a fiberoptic cable from my ? OPPO ? DVD.

I've just ordered a Radio Shack analog sound level meter. I'll set the speakers once this meter shows up.