Blu-Ray player at Bestbuy.

[SmokE]

Looks like Sony HD blu-ray just became available thru Bestbuy ($1000). It can be pre orderd.

Differences so far between Toshiba (HD-DD) and Sony (Blu-ray) players seems to be.....

As for backward compatibility, Toshiba is compatibe to play HD DVD, HD DVD-R, DVD, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, CD, CD-R/-RW, MP3 and WMA formats. While Sony only mentioned that it is backward compatible with standard DVDs (no mention of CD).

Sony can put out 1080P prograssive format, while Toshiba put out 720P and 1080i.

Sony look more high tech (Toshiba looks like a VCR player) :D

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7763823&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03013&id=1142288677966

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/7763/7763823_sa.jpg

[nightflier]

Well Toshiba's player is also just $499. But if it won't do 1080p, why would anyone buy that over a good ol' Marantz DV6600?

It looks like Blu-Ray has an early lead in the race, but so far I have yet to actually see either of these players on the shelf....

[Smokey]

Well Toshiba's player is also just $499. But if it won't do 1080p, why would anyone buy that over a good ol' Marantz DV6600?

One reason might be that Marantz is not a HD player :D

[musicman1999]

Eta is mid to late August.My local Sony store told me 3 weeks ago that their eta was November and that there was a question mark on that.

bill

[kexodusc]

Great, now I'll need to buy a new TV just to play 1080p :mad2:

$1000 price point is too steep for me right now...I got burned when DVD came out...my $1000 player was smoked 2 years later by most $400 players, and now probably wouldn't compete with most $100 players.

Such is the nature of the business.

I think consumers are wise to this. Which means BluRay and HD-DVD might see fewer early adoptors, or at least a slower growth period. Hope I'm wrong.

I'm not just sitting on the fence on this one, I've pitched a tent, and stocked a cooler full of beer!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Bluray plays CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-RW, DVD+RW just like HD-DVD does. Neither format has an advantage over another in this area.

Kex, I wouldn't worry about 1080P. Unless you have a very large RPTV or front projection system, you will be hard pressed to see any difference between 1080I and 1080P Especially if you sit more than 10ft from your display.

[paul_pci]

For the average consumer, will the difference between 1080i vs. p even be a selling point?

[GMichael]

I'm not just sitting on the fence on this one, I've pitched a tent, and stocked a cooler full of beer!

Hey fellow camper. I have hamburgers & hot dogs cooking. You want cheese with yours?

[kexodusc]

Bluray plays CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-RW, DVD+RW just like HD-DVD does. Neither format has an advantage over another in this area.

Kex, I wouldn't worry about 1080P. Unless you have a very large RPTV or front projection system, you will be hard pressed to see any difference between 1080I and 1080P Especially if you sit more than 10ft from your display.

Really? I notice a modest difference between 720p and 1080i on "busy" pictures with lots of movement...720p looks better IMO. Not the end of the world, but why isn't 1080p much better? Have we reached the point of diminishing returns already? :idea:

In that case, why would anyone with a 1080i TV, or 51" set like me or smaller think twice about spending double on BluRay and several dollars more per disc? Any other benefits?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Really? I notice a modest difference between 720p and 1080i on "busy" pictures with lots of movement...720p looks better IMO. Not the end of the world, but why isn't 1080p much better? Have we reached the point of diminishing returns already? :idea:

The point of diminishing returns lies in our eyes ability to see fine detail and a given distance. If you sit 10ft or more from the display you will be hard pressed to any differences. Our eyes ability to detect fine detail is very limited at this distance. Secondly all HD DVD and Bluray software is sourced from 1080p 24 frame sources. All regular DVD and broadcast comes from 480i encoding. Because the HD source is already progressive before encoding into the HD formats, none of the artifacts associated with current DVD technology will exist. So asides from the extra detail in 1080p which may be visible are not, both 1080i and 1080p output will look essentially the same. Unlike current video where 720p looks better than 1080i on sporting events, 1080i and 1080p sources will look pretty much alike with sports material.


In that case, why would anyone with a 1080i TV, or 51" set like me or smaller think twice about spending double on BluRay and several dollars more per disc? Any other benefits?

If you have a set smaller than 50" I would say that the picture will look crisper, but the ability to see fine detail will be completely lost on a screen that size. You should see a difference on a 50" screen. In the case the improvement in audio might be what you are looking for.

[nightflier]

Smokey,

I was referring to the fact that the good ol' Marantz DV6600 is a decent up-converter, too. My understanding is that it can upconvert 480p to 1080p if using the HDMI output. It probably won't look as good as true 1080 content, but how much of this will the average consumer with the average size tv notice? I don't know the answer to that because I'm still in the dark ages (component video & 1080i is the best I can do), but realistically how much does this new technology really buy for the average guy on the street?

My guess is that it will just be bragging rights over technology they can't see or hear. Now where have I heard that concept before?

[GTF]

I hope they both fail.
2 different formats.
What a joke.

The only way to get this fixed is a complete boycott of both players
and letters to Sony and Toshiba to produce ONE player.

Any takers?

Beta-VHS
SCAD- that other CD format. What was that. something dvd.

GTF

[Geoffcin]

Great, now I'll need to buy a new TV just to play 1080p :mad2:

An excellent primer on HDTV

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/reality.html


To summarize: There are no fast refresh (30Hz or 60Hz) 1080p production or transmission formats in use, nor are there any looming in the near future — even on the new HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats. The bandwidth is barely there for 1080i channels, and it’s probably just as well, because most TVs wouldn’t support 1080p/60 anyway — they’d just convert those signals to 1080i or 540p before you saw them.

The 1280x720 progressive-scan HDTV format, which can be captured at full resolution using existing broadcast cameras and survives MPEG-2 compression better than 1080i, doesn’t make it to most HDTV screens without first being altered to 1080i or 540p in a set-top box or in the HDTV set itself. So what chance would a 1080p signal have?

Still think you’ve just gotta have that new 1080p RPTV? Wait until you see what standard definition analog TV and digital cable look like on it…

[evil__betty]

Both formats will support 1080p - but not yet. In order to transmit 1080p, you need a HDMI 1.3 output and a TV that will accept a HDMI 1.3 input. Neither of these exsit so there will be a lack of any 1080p signal for a while. All of the HD DVD and Blu-Ray movies are captured in 1080p (it states that on the back of the HD DVD movie I looked over today) and once HDMI 1.3 becomes availible on both ends (player and TV) then you will be able to send a 1080p signal. But like many people refuse to believe You won't be able to see a difference between 1080i/p unless you are less than 6 feet away on a 70" TV. Its marketing! DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THIS! With more and more studios releasing (or planning to release) movies for both formats, I think that price will win out. Either that or people will have two formats and buy the movie that they want and play it in whatever player supports it. But fear not, LG is releasing a machine that will play both formats so there will be an end in sight. I'll probably have a player of some sort in my house by Christmas - but we'll see.

[kexodusc]

An excellent primer on HDTV

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/reality.html


To summarize: There are no fast refresh (30Hz or 60Hz) 1080p production or transmission formats in use, nor are there any looming in the near future — even on the new HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats. The bandwidth is barely there for 1080i channels, and it’s probably just as well, because most TVs wouldn’t support 1080p/60 anyway — they’d just convert those signals to 1080i or 540p before you saw them.

The 1280x720 progressive-scan HDTV format, which can be captured at full resolution using existing broadcast cameras and survives MPEG-2 compression better than 1080i, doesn’t make it to most HDTV screens without first being altered to 1080i or 540p in a set-top box or in the HDTV set itself. So what chance would a 1080p signal have?

Still think you’ve just gotta have that new 1080p RPTV? Wait until you see what standard definition analog TV and digital cable look like on it…

The price is aweful tempting on HD-DVD players....maybe within a year or so I'll cave in...I could always buy a PlayStation to get BluRay, whenever that comes out. Chances are neither will be last HD player anyway.

Isn't Xbox suppose to be releasing an HD-DVD drive version fo the 360? I wonder how these consoles will stack-up against brand name players in terms of performance?
They may actually be the best "value" way to go about getting either...I'm sure they'll be a big step up standard DVD.

[Geoffcin]

The price is aweful tempting on HD-DVD players....maybe within a year or so I'll cave in...I could always buy a PlayStation to get BluRay, whenever that comes out. Chances are neither will be last HD player anyway.

Isn't Xbox suppose to be releasing an HD-DVD drive version fo the 360? I wonder how these consoles will stack-up against brand name players in terms of performance?
They may actually be the best "value" way to go about getting either...I'm sure they'll be a big step up standard DVD.

To the release of the PlayStation, (which is rumored to be coming in at $699!?)

Also, I'm sure they will have a first round of discounting of HD-DVD players right around BlueRay's release. Figure the $499 unit going to $399, while the cheapest BlueRay unit is going to be offered at about a grand.

[superpanavision70mm]

Is it me or does the packaging for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray look...well, el' cheapo? I mean...that's the BEST they could come up with? It seems like you are getting hosed on the deal. I understand the need to make the packaging different than that of DVD, but those thin cases are lame! Not only that, but marking the discs with color (red for HD-DVD and blue for Blu-ray) seems generic too.

[nightflier]

I agree with the boycot. The only way I'll buy one of these is if it comes as part of an X-box or PlayStation. Heck, if the PS is $699, that's $300 less than the Sony Blu-Ray player, and about the same as Toshiba's higher-end player.

One thing that nobody is mentioning is that the only companies that have come out with players (and again, I haven't seen one on the shelf yet), are Sony & Toshiba. These are not the high end. I wonder what kinds of advantages a Denon, Marantz, or Arcam HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player will offer. Also, how well will they upconvert regular DVD's, if at all? Most importantly, what will they cost?

I think LG's dual-format player is a step in the right direction. However, a universal player tends to be technologically more difficult to manufacture and I have doubts that this will be done right from a consumer-line company like LG.

[superpanavision70mm]

Does anyone remember 1997? If so, can anyone recall the time it took for the higher-end models to start doing DVD? I remember the nightmares with the first few DVD players that hit the shelf...ahhhh, I suppose this is repeating history.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Okay, I finally got my first exposure to HD-DVD, and it was just what I expected. The picture was VERY good. I didn't expect anything less. Serenity look beautiful. However, I am in disbelief at what the Toshiba does to the audio. It takes a high bitrate datastream, higher than we currently have in even Dts, and converts all Dolby Digital plus streams to Dts at 1.5kbps. It not that it sounds bad, but the benefits of these new audio format is completely lost to a conversion process, and a lower bitrate than the original audio.

This format at this point is only half finished. Only a fool would buy into a format that is half finished with no concrete way for upgrades to get all of the audio functions to work. The used old processing chips to keep the price down which limits the players expansion. The way this machine boots up like a computer is lengthy and tedious.

I guess because I see good high def pictures every day, I am not that impressed with the PQ even thought it was by anyone's defintation very good. However the rush to get both fomats out so incomplete it a huge turn off for me. What I cannot understand is why Toshiba doesn't do the same thing that Bluray has planned on doing. Just release all soundtracks in 5.1 uncompressed PCM until the HDMI 1.3 standards are ready and implemented. You would be amazed at how good a uncompressed 24/96khz soundstrack actually sounds. Sounds better than Dolby Digital by far, and better than full bit Dts as well.

[paul_pci]

This begs the question: why bother buying or selling a 1080p chip if the set cannot process the 1080p signal appropriately?




An excellent primer on HDTV

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/reality.html


To summarize: There are no fast refresh (30Hz or 60Hz) 1080p production or transmission formats in use, nor are there any looming in the near future — even on the new HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats. The bandwidth is barely there for 1080i channels, and it’s probably just as well, because most TVs wouldn’t support 1080p/60 anyway — they’d just convert those signals to 1080i or 540p before you saw them.

The 1280x720 progressive-scan HDTV format, which can be captured at full resolution using existing broadcast cameras and survives MPEG-2 compression better than 1080i, doesn’t make it to most HDTV screens without first being altered to 1080i or 540p in a set-top box or in the HDTV set itself. So what chance would a 1080p signal have?

Still think you’ve just gotta have that new 1080p RPTV? Wait until you see what standard definition analog TV and digital cable look like on it…

[swicken]

Smokey,

I was referring to the fact that the good ol' Marantz DV6600 is a decent up-converter, too. My understanding is that it can upconvert 480p to 1080p if using the HDMI output. It probably won't look as good as true 1080 content, but how much of this will the average consumer with the average size tv notice? I don't know the answer to that because I'm still in the dark ages (component video & 1080i is the best I can do), but realistically how much does this new technology really buy for the average guy on the street?

My guess is that it will just be bragging rights over technology they can't see or hear. Now where have I heard that concept before?

Scaled 1080p in a marantz DV6600 looks like nothing compared to true 1080p.
The consumer will be able to tell the difference easily.

[nightflier]

"Scaled 1080p in a marantz DV6600 looks like nothing compared to true 1080p. The consumer will be able to tell the difference easily"

As was already pointed out, this will depend a great deal on the TV sets most average consumers are using and whether they are setting things up correctly with the correct equipment. I think that most consumers will not see a difference large enough to justify the much higher prices. They may, however, just buy in for the bragging rights, and I can think of quite a few people I know who will do this.

P.S. I don't consider the people on this board (and all the people for who we set things up properly), the "average consumers." If I just think of all the family members and friends I can think of, only a small percentage of them have a decently set up system. Most of them do not even have clear 1080 resolution, eventhough the majority will rave about their digital tv and how much better it looks from regular tv - they couldn't tell you what the resolution, is though. I suspect my experience is not unique.

[Smokey]

As was already pointed out, this will depend a great deal on the TV sets most average consumers are using and whether they are setting things up correctly with the correct equipment. I think that most consumers will not see a difference large enough to justify the much higher prices.

I believe most consumers can tell difference between true HD 1080 and upconverted 1080.

Remember DVD have only twice resolution of VHS (vertically), and most consumer could tell that DVD have better picture. Now imagine that HD 1080 have four time resolution of DVD (vertically and horizontally). So difference will be more obvious :)

[superpanavision70mm]

Won't it also matter though if the original source has been transferred for HD?

[nightflier]

I believe most consumers can tell difference between true HD 1080 and upconverted 1080.

Then the next question is: Will they care enough to shell out that much more $$$?

[musicman1999]

Sir Terrence
dd+ should be available at the 5.1 analog outputs in full glory.Ultimateav.com got a hold of a player to test and that was their finding.

bill

[Smokey]

Then the next question is: Will they care enough to shell out that much more $$$?

That is a good question. Price may play an importand factor in determining the sucess of HD DVDs. If the prices will be much higher than current DVDs and players, then the common Joe might not want to get on the band wagon (including yours truly :D)

[KaiWinters]

Two competing formats. Unfinished programming. Few, more than expected actually, dvd's on sale in HD. Very expensive.
I am in no hurry to buy but I will when they become more stable and reasonably priced.
I am surprised to see the HD-DVD's on sale at BB for $24.99.