To Plasma or not to plasma... Questions.

[yamdsp-a1]

HI,

I am seriously considering taking the plunge and buying a 42 inch Plasma display.

I am going to go for one of the "cheap" ones - Samsung, Gateway, Sampo or something like that. I like Samsung products so I am leaning towards that brand name.

What are the important things to consider when purchasing one of these beasts?

Is the pixel rate important? And is higher better? I think the Samsung is 800 by 480 so is more better on this? Should I be looking for higher pixel rates?

What about Brightness, Candle strength etc?

What should I be looking at besides the $$$ if I seriously want to buy one of these?

Anyone in the Manhattan New Jersey area recommend a place to purchase? Probably going to be buying while I am in NYC.

Any and all input appreciated.

Yam

[topspeed]

I've heard there are serious problems with plasma's as to their longevity. There are others here such as Woodman who will be able to qualify that far better than I. The rumor is that they will fry in about 5 years, tops. Before I unload a bunch of dead presidents on anything just because it is hip and cool, I'd consider how long it will last. Yes, plasma's native pixel rate is better than most crt and lcd sets. However, dlp's are right there and don't have the burn-in problem of plasmas. Also, the new LCOS sets are supposed to offer the best of all worlds. Right now, it seems that the best picture for the money is still good 'ol crt. They may not hang on the wall but their black level is still the best and they don't suffer the bleeding problems of first gen dlp's.

BTW, as far as getting a "cheap" plasma, buyer beware: you get what you pay for. There a good chance the picture will unlikely be better than a crt that you could have purchased for half the price. Just a thought...

Good luck

[yamdsp-a1]

I knew there was an issue with the longevity of the displays, although I didn't realize there life span was as low as 5 years. It is a lot of $$ to drop on something that only last five years...

I am hoping Woodman will drop in and give me his opinion on these things.

I am still pretty much set on getting one, unless I can find something about the same size, with about the same foot print. Most CRT's of the size I want, 42" widescreen, are just too big for the space I have, projection isn't an option because I can't get the room dark enough, and I don't know much about the other options available as the selection is very limited where I live.

I am hoping to get some research in before I go on my buying trip in March, so thanks very much for your input.

Yam

[Jetsons]

Plasma life of a quality screen is stated by manufacurers in the range of 50K-60K hours. At that point, the brightness of the screen reportedly decreases by 50% and you can adjust the contrast settings to compensate. Burn in is the main issue with these screens so one has to be careful in this regard.

As to models, I would suggest looking at something along the lines of the Panny commercial models (same as consumer w/o speakers and tuner) which have a far better picture than the models you mentioned. Price of the commercial 42" Panny is easily in line with any of the above mentioned panels.

Check out avsforum.com, plasma display forum and read for a couple of weeks. There is a wealth of info there on this subject.

Jet

[woodman]

Yam:
I highly urge you to unconsider buying a plasma display ... they're just not worth the pricetag. Especially, the cheaper ones that you say you're considering. About the only thing they have going for them is the "coolness" ... the "wow factor". To pay around $3K for such a limited payoff is not very cool IMO.

You say that you have space limitations that would eliminate an RPTV from contention. Give me the specifics please.

You also say that you cannot consider front projection because you cannot control the ambient light in the room. Again, give me the specifics for that "problem".

Let me try to help you avoid a costly buying "mistake" ... please. I flatly don't accept Jetson's statement that the mfgs. of plasma displays claim a life expectancy of 50,000 to 60,000 hours of operation before the brightness level drops to 50%. I think maybe he mistakenly saw one too many zeros. I would expect 5,000 to 6,000 hours would likely be more accurate, but they haven't been around long enough for anyone to know for sure.

[jeskibuff]

I would expect 5,000 to 6,000 hours would likely be more accurate, but they haven't been around long enough for anyone to know for sure.
And just where are you pulling these numbers from, Woodman? Do a quick websearch for "plasma lifespan" and you'll see a consistent 20K to 30,000 hours before that 50% mark is reached. Well, 30,000 hours works out to be 3.4 years if on 24 hours per day. Plasmas certainly have been around long enough for manufacturers to make those tests. As one site (http://www.plasmatelevisionreview.com/buying_tips.htm#3) says, if you watch about 4 hours per day, you'll get about 21 years of life out of it before it hits that point where you have to adjust for the brightness factor.

[yamdsp-a1]

Thanks very much for the comments Jeff and woodman.

I'll let you guys duke it out over the lifespan issue - somewhere between 5,000 and 30,000 hours, that is a pretty broad range.

However, on to my issue. My space. My living room is about 15' by 25' and has a 10 ft screen door at the far back wall, directly behind the TV - from the viewing position - one smaller window and another 8 ft screen door to the left, and an open kitchen with windows behind. I don't own the place and thus don't particularly want to incur costs to re do all the blinds and drapery to get the room dark enough for a projection system - also very limited as to wiring things as the ceiling is open beam and vaulted. And the room is northwest facing so gets sun all afternoon and into the evening.

I have about 3 ft from the rear wall ( which is basically a screen door) to where the TV and stereo can be placed, given the room limitations and all the stereo equipment and about 10 ft between the two main speakers.

A projection TV won't work - mostly because I don't like them (I assume an RPTV is the same thing). A Plasma would fit nicely in the space, would sit well on top of my stereo cabinet and could be suspended from the beams in the ceiling if necessary.

So biggest limitations are:

1) It must sit on top of my stereo cabinet
2) It can't weigh too much
3) Must be at least 40" widescreen - otherwise I just keep my 27" Toshiba CRT
4) It will be used almost exclusively for DVD and video - I want a movie theater experience
5) Must have a future resale value

Thanks for the suggestions...

Yam

[woodman]

And just where are you pulling these numbers from, Woodman? Do a quick websearch for "plasma lifespan" and you'll see a consistent 20K to 30,000 hours before that 50% mark is reached. Well, 30,000 hours works out to be 3.4 years if on 24 hours per day. Plasmas certainly have been around long enough for manufacturers to make those tests. As one site (http://www.plasmatelevisionreview.com/buying_tips.htm#3) says, if you watch about 4 hours per day, you'll get about 21 years of life out of it before it hits that point where you have to adjust for the brightness factor.

FYI jeski, I got those numbers from Dick Cheney who told me that he invented the technology, and that "his" company (Halliburton, of course) makes ALL of the plasma displays for ALL of the other mfgs. Since we all know how that useless POS of a human lies, I should've known to take the info with more than a grain of salt - perhaps a pound of salt would've been sufficient, I don't know.

Furthermore, where did YOU come up with the idea that you can watch a plasma display for 20,000 or 30,000 hours - then suddenly, the brightness drops in half? The brightness will deteriorate slightly every day until that 50% level is reached ... NOT operate at full brightness - then suddenly drop as your post seemed to intimate.

[jeskibuff]

FYI jeski, I got those numbers from Dick Cheney who told me that he invented the technology, and that "his" company (Halliburton, of course) makes ALL of the plasma displays for ALL of the other mfgs. Since we all know how that useless POS of a human lies, I should've known to take the info with more than a grain of salt - perhaps a pound of salt would've been sufficient, I don't know.
First of all, Cheney is NO Al Gore, claiming to invent everything in the world. It's apparent that YOU are on some kind of hallucinogen. And no...we ALL don't believe that Cheney lies....just the conspiracy nut cases do. Care to provide specific examples? If so...do so in the "off-topic" forum, NOT HERE! You still haven't answered the question HONESTLY...where did you get YOUR numbers from?? Incidentally...a little closer look at those lifespans indicate that some newer plasmas hit the 60,000 hours expectancy figure.

Now, we DO have to take into account that these are MANUFACTURER'S claims and therefore are subject to the possibility of exaggeration, but HOW MUCH do you think they're going to "push" their claims and risk their credibility? Maybe a little, but NOT a lot, if they intend to maintain or enhance their market share.

And seeing's how plasma is a relatively new technology, I would expect that these manufacturers have on hand SCIENTISTS who are there to advance the technology in the interest of staying ahead of the competition. I would think it reasonable to believe that these scientists probably thoroughly understand the technology and its deficiencies and are working to overcome those problems to ensure their company remains competitive and successful and they therefore hang on to their well-paying employment. While there may not have been enough time to VERIFY one of the new displays out to 60,000 hours, they CAN interpolate data. In other words, if they know that an older display lasted 20,000 hours before hitting that 50% mark, they can most likely compare the RATE of decay from the new manufacturing process to the rate from the old process and therefore extrapolate the prediction of 60,000 hours WITHOUT ACTUALLY MEASURING IT for 60,000 hours. Is that an unreasonable assumption, in your opinion?


Furthermore, where did YOU come up with the idea that you can watch a plasma display for 20,000 or 30,000 hours - then suddenly, the brightness drops in half? The brightness will deteriorate slightly every day until that 50% level is reached ... NOT operate at full brightness - then suddenly drop as your post seemed to intimate.Agreed. I thought about that a couple hours after I had posted it, but didn't feel it was important enough to correct.

So...once again....where are you getting 5,000 to 6,000 hours from? Is this some factual benchmark that you can point us to, or is it just a set of numbers you use to conveniently promote your biased opinion?

[Widowmaker]

Like others here, I would highly recommend that you do not get a plasma, for many of the reasons listed previously. Do you really want to pay for a TV that might just last 10 years? I don't know about you, but if I pay $10k+ for a TV, I would want to it last FOREVER.

Also, next time you go to look at them, run your fingers along the top where the heat vents are. You will notice right away how hot they run, hotter than any other display out there. Imagine the burn-in possibilities...

Lastly, a 50 inch plasma may sound nice on paper but once you hang that sucker on the wall and sit 8-12 feet away from it, you'll be surprised how small it looks, especially considering all the money you spent on it.

[yamdsp-a1]

All valid points, however, I wasn't looking to spend $10K or anywhere near that amount. Hopefully under $3K

I am doing more and more research on the subject. I know a guy who purchased a Panasonic RPTV LCD which he claims is 16" at its widest point for a 50" screen. I am going to look at it this weekend. It is about the same price as the Plasma, weighs about 80lbs and can fit on top of my stereo cabinet - this how he has it set up. That covers a lot of my bases, so it could be a real contender. I am curious how it is effected by ambient light and if there is any glare on the screen.

The plasma is still the front runner though. I don't mind if it runs hot, and it seems to me, the technology has evolved to compensate for the earlier burn in problems, and the black levels are much improved over earlier iterations. I don't really want to hang it on the wall but it would look pretty good in my living room. As will the RPTV.

The search and saga continues....

Yam

[jeskibuff]

5) Must have a future resale value
To me, THAT's the biggest argument against the plasma, for as the technology takes hold and more people buy them, the quicker their prices will drop. Mine has already dropped by a good chunk since I bought it (I'm not referring to the resale value, but the RETAIL price!) and other attractive options are out there (mine is EDTV, the newer ones are HDTV), including DLP and LCD. The DLPs look real good, but I don't know if I'd like the wheel noise. I LOVE the compact size and weight of the plasma, plus the display options. Sony's 70" DLP looked GREAT when I saw it though, making my 42" display look puny. But I'm happy with my plasma and will probably keep it for a while!

You should also factor into the cost the mounting method. Sitting a plasma on top of your cabinet may require an OPTIONAL stand, and they're NOT cheap. I hung mine on the wall with a DIY bracket for a total of less than $10.

[yamdsp-a1]

Hi Jeskibuff,

Funnily enough, I would say the plasma would have a higher resale value where I live because the supply is very limited and duty and shipping are very expensive. It isn't like there is a best buy on the corner or a couple of miles away. You have to fly to Atlanta or New York or Boston to find one. That coupled with some pretty wealthy people makes for a pretty robust resale market.

Anyway, we will see what the RPTV looks like and do some more research and see wht I come up with.

What kind of plasma do you own? What problems, if any, have you experienced with it? Any strange things about it, quirks of plasma tv's?

Thanks for the input,

Yam

[jeskibuff]

I would say the plasma would have a higher resale value where I live because the supply is very limited and duty and shipping are very expensive.
.
.
What kind of plasma do you own? What problems, if any, have you experienced with it? Any strange things about it, quirks of plasma tv's?
That's a strange situation with the resale, Yam. Where do you live?

I have a Panasonic 42"...forget the model number...THD42WUDY or something screwy like that. It was the commercial version when I bought it 2 years ago, with a black bezel instead of silver and without any kind of stand or mounting hardware included. The stand was about $500 at the time.

I've experienced no problems whatsoever with the unit. It looks great, but it really is just used mainly for movies. I watch little TV and when I do, it's either through the TV tuner in my computer or falling asleep in my bedroom with The Tonight Show on. My plasma will probably go 50 years before it hits that 50% mark! :D

Quirks? While in an audio store in Denver, a salesman recently told me that plasmas have an audible hum at high altitude. Another one told me that the picture on a 42" Marantz EDTV unit looked better than one on a 50" Marantz HDTV unit. Go figure. He knew I wasn't shopping for plasmas, so I trust he wasn't cooking the data for a sale.

Probably the only thing I don't like about mine is the cord connections. The connectors are pretty hard to get at and the power cord is too easily pulled out of its socket. Fortunately, once it's all hooked up you don't have to struggle with it anymore.

Although I haven't kept up on the progress of the technology, I believe Panasonic is still the brand to beat for display quality. The contrast ratio is one of the highest in the industry which gives it great blacks. Other plasmas look a little "washed-out" in comparison. You may be looking at cheaper plasmas like Gateway, Samsung and other names, but you may be disappointed. When I bought mine, Panasonic and Pioneer had the best quality displays from all the information I was able to gather.

[topspeed]

All valid points, however, I wasn't looking to spend $10K or anywhere near that amount. Hopefully under $3K

I am doing more and more research on the subject. I know a guy who purchased a Panasonic RPTV LCD which he claims is 16" at its widest point for a 50" screen. I am going to look at it this weekend. It is about the same price as the Plasma, weighs about 80lbs and can fit on top of my stereo cabinet - this how he has it set up. That covers a lot of my bases, so it could be a real contender. I am curious how it is effected by ambient light and if there is any glare on the screen.

The plasma is still the front runner though. I don't mind if it runs hot, and it seems to me, the technology has evolved to compensate for the earlier burn in problems, and the black levels are much improved over earlier iterations. I don't really want to hang it on the wall but it would look pretty good in my living room. As will the RPTV.

The search and saga continues....

Yam

Dunno about the Panny but I watched the Rose Bowl on a friend's new Sony 40" lcd (via Dish Network) and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. When there was a lot of things happening on screen, there was a visible blurring or "ghosting" of the images. They simply weren't very defined. Also, the black level pretty well sucks. This is an inherent problem with lcd's from what I understand (which is very little) and it makes a difference in the contrast levels present. The colors are beautiful and the brightness seem fine but that wierd imaging during the game pretty much nailed the lid shut on LCD's for me. Honestly, it sounds like you're pretty well sold on plasma's anyway.

Good luck

[jgierich]

Speaking as one who has a new model 50" Panasonic, I have absolutely nothing negative to report about it. The Picture blows me and everyone else that sees it away. I did about three months of research before I made my purchase and almost without exception, the Panasonic stood head and shoulders above any other brand. I spent the extra bucks and have it mounted on a Bello Plasma stand and it is an awesome display. Prices have dropped significantly. My total purchase, with the stand was under 7k. I dealt with Visual Apex on the purchase and they were outstanding. I would highly recomend the Pani

[RayBan]

Well there is no denying that a CRT will give a better black level...
Iam an owner of a plasma (under 3k) and I found that by taking the time to adjust the set with something coperable to the Digital video esentials test disk, Iam able to get a pretty good image. Sure it will never equal a CRT but if you buy it knowing that it's not a big deal. I also can tell you that the better quality cable youuse the better the picture as well Component being a good picture :)
As far as life of the TV? Considering how incredible the strides in technology are and the track record of EVERY peice of equipment I ever owned, I'm not going to stress over this TV lasting 10 years. IMAGINE what we will be talking about in 10 years! I'm sure it will get me happily thru 5+ years

[jgierich]

[QUOTE=RayBan]Well there is no denying that a CRT will give a better black level...
The Panasonic boasts a 3000:1 contrast ratio and even if that is an overstatement, I have NEVER seen a better, crisper more clear picture than what this monitor produces. I swear that at times during the Superbowl, like when the overhead camera was used, I felt like I was on the field. I do agree that I could care less if I get over 10 years with this, as I can imagine watching true holographic imaged Tv within the next decade.

[yamdsp-a1]

Which TV under $3K did you go with?

I saw the 50" LCD RPTV. It was pretty good. I was actually very impressed. Also, I think with a proper calibration, the TV would be pretty amazing. I could see myself owning that TV, no problems at all. However, I am still pretty curious about the plasmas and I have nto exhausted my research yet, ao I apprecaite the information.

Thanks for your input.

Yam

[jeskibuff]

Which TV under $3K did you go with?Hey Yam...I just checked out that Visual Apex site that jgierich referred to. They have a 42" Panasonic EDTV on sale right now for $2745 (expect somewhere around $100 shipping). This doesn't come with the stand, although it's pictured with one. Also, note the contrast ratio is now at 4000:1. Worth checking out, in my opinion.

Edit: correction...their cheapest shipping runs $195

[AVMASTER]

Jeskibuff;
can you receive a 720p signal?

[jeskibuff]

can you receive a 720p signal?Yup...it accepts any signal my HDTV receiver dishes out through the PC connection, except "Video 1/2", which is basically your lowest resolution (480i...S-Video or composite). It has no problem with displaying the 1080i, 720p and 480p modes, even though the resolution of the display is only 852x480. Actually, now that I think about it, the 480i mode just doesn't go out on that connector, so it's not really a problem with the plasma...my HDTV receiver decides not to output that mode on that connection.

[jgierich]

Just a quick point of clarification....the 42" plasma you referred to from Visual Apex is the EDTV model and not the HDTV. From everything I've seen and heard there is not a highly perceptable difference in viewing regular cable or satellite, but I believe the difference is greater when viewing DVDs. The most authoritative resource I have found on this is located at www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com. I recomend a stop over at that site before you make any final decision.

[AVMASTER]

i can understand in your case using a ED industrial plasma, but my main concern when selling these is not lifespan, burn-in, or heat but current and furture usage. ED plasmas ( good ones)are great for DVD viewing but what happens when blue-lazer DVD players hit? What happens when analog broadcast ends and more program providers use higher formats (1080p ? )? You may have a great sound system but what if I just want to watch the news for a few minutes- instead of just turning on a plasma TV i,ve got several steps to take just to hear a plasma Display. I could go on and on but the point is Yam should consider a plasma with as high as resolution he can afford and how he plans to use it.
I highly recommend Panasonic th42px20u or Panasonic th42phd6uy with component video(rca) plug-in board and a DVI plug-in board

[yamdsp-a1]

Thanks for the product recomendations and the advice. I did not cinsider the "future" prooffing, in fact I would have thought all plasmas would be future proof. But maybe not.

Those models you quoted, what is the price range on those?

Any other things you consider pertinent to whole plasma debate?

I am currently being swayed towards the RPTV LCD set up as it seems like it is a more user friendly option, with fewer problems or potential problems than the plasma. However, I really would like to see a few more plasma's in the store etc and get a better feel for the technology.

Everybodies comment have been very help and most welcome.

Thanks to everyone.

Yam

[yamdsp-a1]

Ok,

I figure I can't be the only person going through this so I will relate what I have found thus far.

Plasma - For coolness factor, it takes the lead in a big way. However, there are a lot of issues, including - and this is the biggest for me - the inability to repair the thing. Picture quality is great, convenience is outstanding, the technology has a lot going for it. But $3K plus for something you can't repair is a real concern for me.

LCD-RPTV - this is pretty cool too. Although I was a little distracted by the pixelization on the one I saw. Also, the unit had some problems with skin tones in dark scenes. For the most part though, the picture was great. Only 16" inches deep, so the foot print for the size of screen was impressive.

DLP - I saw one of these this weekend - SAMSUNG 43" Tantrus. This was a sharp looking unit. Excellent color, no pixelisation on what I saw - Componet output from a progressive scan DVD of Finding Nemo. Color saturation looked better than the LCD, in fact the color was pretty much outstanding. Hadn't seen on of these beofre. Anyone have one? Any experiences? The reviews I saw were favorable - although I read there was a problem with the color being too green for some reason. I have also read that unless you are eye level, the picture becomes hard to see. That is, if you are sitting below the picture like watching it from the floor, the picture basically disappears That could be problematic as ideally the set will be sitting about 4 feet off the floor and I often sit below that level to watch TV.

So where am I at. So far, I am at a stand still! Although I think I have moved away from the plasma because of the repair issue. So that leaves me with the DLP and the LCD - RPTV. Both are around the same price point - say $4K where I live. Brands will be either Panasonic or Samsung as those seem to be the ones available here. Here being Bermuda for anyone who cares to know that.

Probably going to purchase mid late March so I have some time left to look around a bit more. I also have a trip up to NYC planned in the mean time so I can look around up there too.

I'll keep you posted. Also would love to hear anymore comments and other people's expereinces.

Thanks

Yam