Power Conditioning - Save thousands?

[terraform]

Why spend $2,000 or more for a fancy powerstrip with a blue LED?

I am in the market to improve my power to components. In my search there are plenty of home audio companies selling overpriced surge protectors promising to filter unwanted noise and polution from power... I disagree, unless they offer double-online conversion.

For any who are interested in clean power, look for devices that offer true double-online conversion. Meaning, that AC power from the wall is converted to DC, cleaned/adjusted, and pure AC is outputted to components. To my surprise, this can be done for less than $1,000 and as low as $500 if you shop around for deals.

Here is an example, that in my opinion would dominate ANY power-filtering device on the audio market dollar for dollar. The downside is fan noise, I recommend remotely installing or isolating from your music room.

Check out the Powerware 9120 series UPS. They offer rack mount or tower, true double-online conversion. http://www.powerware.com/UPS/9120_UPS.asp

This is the device I have selected after a few months research and would love some feedback. If all goes well, this could be an audiophile find at budget prices.

Terraform

[Resident Loser]

...Ahhh! 'tis springtime and behold...the shills are in bloom...

jimHJJ(...became a member just today to share the good news...)

[terraform]

...Ahhh! 'tis springtime and behold...the shills are in bloom...

jimHJJ(...became a member just today to share the good news...)


I have nothing to sell and am looking for educated feedback. Reside elsewhere, Loser.

Terraform

[Resident Loser]

I have nothing to sell and am looking for educated feedback. Reside elsewhere, Loser.

Terraform

...you are waxing rhapsodic over a device more suited to a stand alone PC and it's peripherals...

The higher rated (2000-3000va) item is classified as a Class A digital device which by definition is:

Class A digital device. A digital device that is marketed for use in a commercial, industrial or business environment, exclusive of a device which is marketed for use by the general public or is intended to be used in the home.

Further the owners manual states:

Note: This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for a Class A digital device, pursuant to Part 15 of the FCC Rules. These limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference when the equipment is operated in a commercial environment. This equipment generates, uses, and can radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed and used in accordance with the instruction manual, may cause harmful interference to radio communications. Operation of this equipment in a residential area is likely to cause harmful interference, in which case the user will be required to correct the interference at his own expense.

While the various emphases may be mine, I sincerely doubt any audio-type in the market for the purest of power conditioning will want some ham-handed UPS spewing its RFI/EMI within proximity of his or her high resolution, OFC, Litz-wired, world of wonder.

None of the few owners manuals for audiophile-grade/prosound (PSA, Furman, Monster) power conditioners which I took the liberty to peruse, have any such notices/disclaimers although I freely admit my browse was cursory at best...but...

Given the what seems to the parroting of simplistic ad copy and evincing painfully little grasp re: one of the paramount issues within the land of tweakdom...on your first day of membership no less...surely even you can see how the word shill might be the first thing that comes to mind...

jimHJJ(...although ignorant is quickly rising to the fore...)

[Feanor]

Why spend $2,000 or more for a fancy powerstrip with a blue LED?

I am in the market to improve my power to components. In my search there are plenty of home audio companies selling overpriced surge protectors promising to filter unwanted noise and polution from power... I disagree, unless they offer double-online conversion.
...
Terraform

I agree that audiophiles are over-sold on the importance of line conditions, especially as it pertains to sound quality -- RFI/EMI can be a problem but usually isn't. Then again audiophiles are over-sold on a lot of pricey junk.

For basic protection from surge and RFI/EMI can be got from something like this Tripp Lite ...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=125-102

[terraform]

A conversation, thank you!

Ok, I follow all that you said, despite how wordy you choose to be. The unit I suggested is only 1500va, so would this Class A device status be a mute point? Also, as far as I have read, the only way to get clean power is to create it yourself. In this case, collecting AC power, storing as DC, then releasing as pure AC. I have not seen any products directed towards home audio that do this double-online conversion, yet.

So I guess I am trying to determine what makes a home audio power conditioner/filter any better or worse than a commercial product? Thus far all my research points to the commercial products.

Also, you are right. This is a commercial device marketed for hospitals, data centers, and the military. That also means they can't get away charging a 1000% mark-up on the bits, and no cool blue LED either.

Terraform





...you are waxing rhapsodic over a device more suited to a stand alone PC and it's peripherals...

The higher rated (2000-3000va) item is classified as a Class A digital device which by definition is:

Class A digital device. A digital device that is marketed for use in a commercial, industrial or business environment, exclusive of a device which is marketed for use by the general public or is intended to be used in the home.

Further the owners manual states:

Note: This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for a Class A digital device, pursuant to Part 15 of the FCC Rules. These limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference when the equipment is operated in a commercial environment. This equipment generates, uses, and can radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed and used in accordance with the instruction manual, may cause harmful interference to radio communications. Operation of this equipment in a residential area is likely to cause harmful interference, in which case the user will be required to correct the interference at his own expense.

While the various emphases may be mine, I sincerely doubt any audio-type in the market for the purest of power conditioning will want some ham-handed UPS spewing its RFI/EMI within proximity of his or her high resolution, OFC, Litz-wired, world of wonder.

None of the few owners manuals for audiophile-grade/prosound (PSA, Furman, Monster) power conditioners which I took the liberty to peruse, have any such notices/disclaimers although I freely admit my browse was cursory at best...but...

Given the what seems to the parroting of simplistic ad copy and evincing painfully little grasp re: one of the paramount issues within the land of tweakdom...on your first day of membership no less...surely even you can see how the word shill might be the first thing that comes to mind...

jimHJJ(...although ignorant is quickly rising to the fore...)

[terraform]

I agree that audiophiles are over-sold on the importance of line conditions, especially as it pertains to sound quality -- RFI/EMI can be a problem but usually isn't. Then again audiophiles are over-sold on a lot of pricey junk.

For basic protection from surge and RFI/EMI can be got from something like this Tripp Lite ...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=125-102

I agree and this has always fueled my search for alternate solutions. The latest thing I saw on the internet and want to research is the Shakti Hallograph.

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm

Looks crazy to me and I would love to hear if it makes a difference. Just seems odd to encourage sound waves to bounce more. The best audio room I heard had the speakers built into the corners of the room. Here is a pic -> http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/roomint.jpg

And here is more info on the room -> http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/My_Music_Room.htm

Fun stuff!

Terraform

[GTF]

Terraform, you don't think your getting good AC from a UPS do you?
I hope not. Computer UPS's do not output pur AC sine wave AC unless your spending
BIG bucks.
At UNISYS we sold lots of UPS's and not one outputs audiophile quality AC.
Need some power protection? Some AC line noise isolating?
Here http://www.elect-spec.com/acprot2.htm#Laboratory
Now the PS Audio Power Plants output sinewave AC.
Lots of money.
GTF

[terraform]

I do think it is possible, yes. Did you read the part where I discussed double-online conversion? PS Audio's Power Plant 1000 is awesome (loads of features), and is a true "AC regenerator" as their product page says: http://www.psaudio.com/products/p1000_overview.asp

"A true AC regenerator takes the AC power out of the wall, converts it to DC voltage (like a battery), then re-manufactures perfectly clean, harmonic and noise free AC that you can then use to power your equipment."

Sounds like you answered my question, there is an audio product that uses true double-online conversion. They just call it regeneration.

Terraform


Terraform, you don't think your getting good AC from a UPS do you?
I hope not. Computer UPS's do not output pur AC sine wave AC unless your spending
BIG bucks.
At UNISYS we sold lots of UPS's and not one outputs audiophile quality AC.
Need some power protection? Some AC line noise isolating?
Here http://www.elect-spec.com/acprot2.htm#Laboratory
Now the PS Audio Power Plants output sinewave AC.
Lots of money.
GTF

[yogo]

You do realise that in an electronic component that AC is converted to DC and filtered within that component to provide a stable DC output to serve that component? The filtering is already done.

Why convert from AC to DC to AC to DC again? Seems the potential for noise generation is greater in all these power transferences. Would coverting from AC to DC to AC to DC to AC; etc. help sound quality? I think not.

How do I get a piece of the action for every state change?

[terraform]

Hi Yogo,

Sorry for the confusion and I sure hope you don't think that 1.) Your wall power is clean and stable, and 2.) Electronic devices are cable of isolating themselves from all power problems (see list below).

Clean power must be created, filtering alone will not work and only addresses a few of the problems with power. Thus, AC from wall is converted to DC, then a pure AC signal is created from DC. So yes that is just AC-DC-AC, and finally back to DC by the device.

However, electronic devices are not well equipped to handle:

Power Failures
Power Sags
Power Surges
Undervoltage
Eletrical Line Noise
Overvoltage
Frequency variation
Switching transient
Harmonic distortion

So yes, depending on how poor of quality the AC power from the wall is, converting a bunch of times via the method I described WILL improve sound quality and product life of your components.

Perhaps someone else can talk more about the built-in filtering of devices and their shortfalls.

terraform



You do realise that in an electronic component that AC is converted to DC and filtered within that component to provide a stable DC output to serve that component? The filtering is already done.

Why convert from AC to DC to AC to DC again? Seems the potential for noise generation is greater in all these power transferences. Would coverting from AC to DC to AC to DC to AC; etc. help sound quality? I think not.

How do I get a piece of the action for every state change?

[terraform]

How do I get a piece of the action for every state change?

Oh I know... That is why I started this thread, knowing most solutions for power cost $2,000 and up (that actually generate clean AC). If I had the resources I would contract one of the larger UPS manufactures and outsource an audiophile unit. Battery runtime is not needed, so bypass DC storage and just keep enough for power reserves. Even at list prices it would be easy to add 100% margins and still sell a 1000va unit for less than $2,000.

[Robb]

Man, you guys are way over my head! What do you mean, "clean ac"? I live in the southeastern U.S., where we have frequent thunder/lightning storms and power surges and brief (a second or two) outtages. I use a relatively cheap surge type strip, and have never had my tv/audio equipment fail, even during a storm. What are you after, beyond that? Are there actually improvements in audio/video derived from devices that "clean" your power? I was under the impression that protection against damage was the only goal.

[superpanavision70mm]

Robb, I have a feeling that if you ask a question about power on a site like this that the answers you get are probably going to go way over your head, just like the discussion did. If you go onto Monsters website you will find a beginnings guide to clean power on there that illustrates the importance of clean power. Check it out. This is the only site that I know of that gives it to you straight and simple.

[Florian]

The Audioplan 1000 is very good, so is the PS Audio Powerplant. I have a big one and the difference is incredible, but decide for yourself :-)