Should illegal aliens all be made citizens?

[GMichael]

Should we wave a magic wand and make it all OK?

My wife is from the Philippines. We started on her paperwork to come here, before we were married, back in the summer of 2001. Her visa was denied that October. Then I flew there and we got married in the Philippines with the USA's blessing in writing. Many phone calls, fees & forms later, I flew back here without her. We then began filing more paperwork. Paperwork to Albany. Paperwork to NYC. More paperwork to several other cities around the country for different departments of the INS. Each time there was a fee. My wife had to fly back & forth within her country to file paperwork, get tested, get interviewed and pay more fees. 9 months later she was allowed to come here. Then more tests to make sure she isn't sick with TB or AIDS. Blood taken every few months and trips to the health department every month. Lots of fees here. Then began, you guessed it, more paperwork to have her status adjusted to permanent. But to work, she needed more forms filled out. Sent those to Albany with yet another check made out to the INS. They sent us more paperwork and we made an appointment to drive to Albany to have her picture taken. We get another letter a few weeks later telling us to make another appointment to come back to have her fingerprints taken. Oh, more fees each time, every time. We get another letter in the mail. Albany says that she can't apply for her permanent status there. We have to go to NYC. Oh boy, more fees. More paperwork. More fingerprints. And more pictures taken. They said we would hear from them in between 60 to 180 days and not to contact them before the 180 days plus 30 have gone by. OK, we do the wait thing. We call them to say we got nothing yet. Please wait they say. But her authorization to work will run out in 2 months. Don't worry, you'll hear from us before that. BS! Her authorization runs out. We have to apply again to Albany to extend it. Why did we wait so long we're asked. So we send the paperwork with another check. We get the letter and make a new appointment to drive back for more pictures. We get another letter to make another appointment to drive there again for more fingerprints. We asked them why we couldn't do both together but got shot down again. Oh, more fees. This went on another year. More letters, trips, pictures, fees & finger prints. Finally in fall of 2005 we get a letter saying that we can make an appointment to go to NYC for her interview. We went down in January (sorry I didn't get to stop by Kam, my car was giving me trouble that day) So we get there at the appointed time. 7:30 AM. We wait until her name is called at 3:30 PM. We go in. This lady asks my wife if she's a drug dealer or a prostitute. Asks for proof that we are married. A bunch or other stupid questions that they didn't even listen to the answers to. Then we're told that we are done. Oh, except to go to another building in the city to have her picture and fingerprints taken. WTF! And we have to get there by 5 PM or they close. More forms & fees.
A few weeks ago my wife finally got her green card. Now she only has to wait 3 more years before she is allowed to apply for citizenship. More waiting, more paperwork, more fees, more tests and I bet more fingerprints & pictures.
So, all this because we did it by the book. We should have flown her into Canada and snuck her over the border. That way she would be eligible for the wand waving. Bang, zoom, you're a citizen. No fees, no lines, no forms, no way!
Are they kidding?


Nothing against hard working family orientated people, but why do they get the free ride? We are hard working, family orientated, do it legally people. Why do we get the shaft?

[JoeE SP9]

Illegal aliens should be returned to their country of origin by whatever means they arrived.:cool:

[emaidel]

I guess there are two sides to every story, and this issue has certainly had its share of media coverage of each side. While I think it's a bit difficult to suddenly deport millions of people, I also feel outraged that those of us who are citizens (whether by birth, or by going through the tedious process of becoming a citizen) usually wind up paying for services for these immigrants.

I live in the Denver area, and we have a very, very large Hispanic population. Our public schools are loaded with non-English speaking Hispanic children, and our hospital emergency rooms too are often filled with non-English speaking mothers with their sick children, waiting for "free" medical service. I vehemently oppose bi-lingual education, and dislike having to subsidize those without insurance, but I can't bring myself to join the vocal crowd who want just to deport these people.

Several years ago a really bad hailstorm ruined all the cedar shake roofs in my neighborhood, and several roofing companies made a fortune through insurance payments to install new roofs. The roof for my house came in at a whopping $21,000 (entirely covered by insurance) and the roofer himself made a bundle by repairing dozens of homes in my neighborhood. Each and every one of his workers was an immigrant from South America, and few spoke or understood English. Yet I have to admit, I've never seen anyone work as hard as these folks did. I'm also quite certain that out of the $21,000 the roofer himself was paid, these workers saw very little of that money.

So, who'se to blame? The immigrants (who may, or may not have been illegal) or their employers who pay them dirt wages and make a fat fortune for themselves? Therein lies the dilemma.

[GMichael]

I guess there are two sides to every story, and this issue has certainly had its share of media coverage of each side. While I think it's a bit difficult to suddenly deport millions of people, I also feel outraged that those of us who are citizens (whether by birth, or by going through the tedious process of becoming a citizen) usually wind up paying for services for these immigrants.

I live in the Denver area, and we have a very, very large Hispanic population. Our public schools are loaded with non-English speaking Hispanic children, and our hospital emergency rooms too are often filled with non-English speaking mothers with their sick children, waiting for "free" medical service. I vehemently oppose bi-lingual education, and dislike having to subsidize those without insurance, but I can't bring myself to join the vocal crowd who want just to deport these people.

Several years ago a really bad hailstorm ruined all the cedar shake roofs in my neighborhood, and several roofing companies made a fortune through insurance payments to install new roofs. The roof for my house came in at a whopping $21,000 (entirely covered by insurance) and the roofer himself made a bundle by repairing dozens of homes in my neighborhood. Each and every one of his workers was an immigrant from South America, and few spoke or understood English. Yet I have to admit, I've never seen anyone work as hard as these folks did. I'm also quite certain that out of the $21,000 the roofer himself was paid, these workers saw very little of that money.

So, who'se to blame? The immigrants (who may, or may not have been illegal) or their employers who pay them dirt wages and make a fat fortune for themselves? Therein lies the dilemma.

In this case I blame the employers for paying them the dirt cheap wages. They should be paid normal wages that are taxed like everyone else. The employers are making a killing by raking in all the moola and not paying a fair rate to their workers or our country.

I just want them to fill out the paperwork needed to be here legally. It's part of paying their dues to this country. No need to deport them. Just hand them a pen and the forms. The forms come in Spanish too. Everyone born here has been documented. Everyone who came in legally is documented. These people are not. No way for them to be accountable for their actions. I, in no way want to be unfair to them. I just want a level playing field.

[kexodusc]

.
So, all this because we did it by the book. We should have flown her into Canada and snuck her over the border. That way she would be eligible for the wand waving. Bang, zoom, you're a citizen. No fees, no lines, no forms, no way!
Are they kidding?

Nothing against hard working family orientated people, but why do they get the free ride? We are hard working, family orientated, do it legally people. Why do we get the shaft?

This is a problem in Canada too, but it receives less media coverage for some reason...Actually, front page of the newspapers here this morning was about a Chinese immigrant who was arrested and abused in prison for egging a statue in the 1989 protests in Tiananmen Square. Guess the Canadian Government secured his release and took him in. Now some taxpayers are furious they're footing the bill.

Don't think there's an easy answer to this problem. I can sympathize with your struggles though GM. My wife's Canadian. I have dual citizenship because of my parents, but she's 100% Canadian. I haven't even looked at the process for her to move back to the USA. She's not a student anymore. Never even thought of that stuff when we were getting married...uh-oh...guess we'll cross that bridge when/if we get there.

I thought the fact your wife married you gave her entitlement to be an unlimited immigrant or something? Isn't that suppose to be the easiest, best case-scenario for people wanting to immigrate and eventually become citizens?

Geez...if I have to go through what you're going through, we might be stay in Canada for a long time.

Despite what some politicians' smokescreen excuses would have you believe, don't think you'd have any luck sneaking her across the Canadian border...things have really tightened up the last 10 years. When we went to Florida in late January customs in Boston was a freakin' nightmare!

Now, getting into Canada from the USA - piece of cake!

Look on the bright side, GM...tell your wife when it's all said and done, she'll be every bit as American as the rest of us...tell her bending over and taking the shaft from the government is what it means to be American. :incazzato:

(edit: come to think of it, sounds an aweful lot like what it means to be Canadian)

[GMichael]

This is a problem in Canada too, but it receives less media coverage for some reason...Actually, front page of the newspapers here this morning was about a Chinese immigrant who was arrested and abused in prison for egging a statue in the 1989 protests in Tiananmen Square. Guess the Canadian Government secured his release and took him in. Now some taxpayers are furious they're footing the bill.

Don't think there's an easy answer to this problem. I can sympathize with your struggles though GM. My wife's Canadian. I have dual citizenship because of my parents, but she's 100% Canadian. I haven't even looked at the process for her to move back to the USA. She's not a student anymore. Never even thought of that stuff when we were getting married...uh-oh...guess we'll cross that bridge when/if we get there.

I thought the fact your wife married you gave her entitlement to be an unlimited immigrant or something? Isn't that suppose to be the easiest, best case-scenario for people wanting to immigrate and eventually become citizens?

Geez...if I have to go through what you're going through, we might be stay in Canada for a long time.

Despite what some politicians' smokescreen excuses would have you believe, don't think you'd have any luck sneaking her across the Canadian border...things have really tightened up the last 10 years. When we went to Florida in late January customs in Boston was a freakin' nightmare!

Now, getting into Canada from the USA - piece of cake!

Look on the bright side, GM...tell your wife when it's all said and done, she'll be every bit as American as the rest of us...tell her bending over and taking the shaft from the government is what it means to be American. :incazzato:

(edit: come to think of it, sounds an aweful lot like what it means to be Canadian)


Too funny. "Bend over honey. It's for Uncle Sam." I'll try that on her tonight.

The last time I was in Canada was about 20 years ago. A guy in a booth asked us if we had anything to declare. I said yeah, we had a good time. He laughed and opened the gate. I guess times have changed.

Much of the waiting we did was because we are in NYC's area. They are backed up by about 2-3 years in papers and interviews. Then a lot of the extra paperwork & BS we went through was to keep renewing her work status while we waited. Get started now and you may get done in less than a year in your area.

First you'll need to file for her visa. The forms tell you what you'll need.
Then you can file the K-3 status (wife or fiancé) form so she can come to the US while you wait for the visa. I advise against this unless you are in a hurry. It causes more headaches later. You'll have to adjust her status once she gets here and that takes the longest.
You'll have to file a support deposition. This states that you will support her (even if you split up) and she won't become a burden on the public. You'll have to send them your last 3 years income tax returns to prove you make enough to support her. I believe that these go some place in Chicago.
They'll let you know where you need to go to get more pictures & fingerprints.
Then doctor visits and the interview.

Being married to a US citizen does not make anyone automatically a citizen. It just makes them eligible to apply.

I found this website to be of help. http://uscis.gov/graphics/index.htm

You don't NEED a Lawyer. They won't make anything go faster for you. But they do know what papers you need to file and where to send them. The link above can give you all of that if you don't mind getting the info yourself.

[shokhead]

In this case I blame the employers for paying them the dirt cheap wages. They should be paid normal wages that are taxed like everyone else. The employers are making a killing by raking in all the moola and not paying a fair rate to their workers or our country.

I just want them to fill out the paperwork needed to be here legally. It's part of paying their dues to this country. No need to deport them. Just hand them a pen and the forms. The forms come in Spanish too. Everyone born here has been documented. Everyone who came in legally is documented. These people are not. No way for them to be accountable for their actions. I, in no way want to be unfair to them. I just want a level playing field.

The ones speaking for them dont belive they should have to do anything except a snap of trhe fingers. Did you know Mexico kicks out more illegals then the USA does. Did you know if your Visa has expired they will arrest you. Did you know that if you become legal you can still be kicked out at anytime for any reason. I wonder how that would go if we just used Mexico's laws on that? 10-12 million illegal is just to much to send back and start all over. Secure the boarders first then do something like 3 years of employment and paying taxes and no troble then apply? I just heard a guy saying treat them the same way the whites were treated when they were coming here in the 1800's.

[GMichael]

The ones speaking for them dont belive they should have to do anything except a snap of trhe fingers. Did you know Mexico kicks out more illegals then the USA does. Did you know if your Visa has expired they will arrest you. Did you know that if you become legal you can still be kicked out at anytime for any reason. I wonder how that would go if we just used Mexico's laws on that? 10-12 million illegal is just to much to send back and start all over. Secure the boarders first then do something like 3 years of employment and paying taxes and no troble then apply? I just heard a guy saying treat them the same way the whites were treated when they were coming here in the 1800's.

I have heard that Mexico is stricker than us. But I don't want to blame the people here for that. I'm just against the finger snapping thing. No magic wands. Do it right. Follow the rules. Then they are more than welcome. I'll even cook them burgers if they stop by.

[Resident Loser]

...b!tchy...

Here we have people who are already breaking the law and intimidating congress to do their bidding? WTF is wrong with this place? And congress seems to be backing off!!!

First, given notice of the impending demos, the Guard or army should be out linin' 'em up and takin' names...ooo! but what about their freedom of speech and all the other bull-twaddle...lessee, you are here illegally you have no rights...let me see your friggin' papers...

Perspective please...there are people who do it right and get p!$$ed on for their efforts...nice message DC!!!

The illegals get paid cash, can you say underground economy...and who gets the bill? So we all get p!$$ed on!!!

The b@$tards that hire the day laborers, who pay them with cash, have the cash that they don't declare as income and so on and so forth, get my drift...more golden showers?

They only take jobs Americans don't want...great heapin' helpin's of BS...like construction jobs, and meat cutters and a whole host of other jobs as per some numbers recently posted on ABC news...roughly 20% of some jobs are held by illegals...it undercuts advances labor unions have struggled to achieve, lowers introductory wages and takes jobs from Americans who can do no better because they have little or no high school-level qualifications. Oh! and as a somewhat related P.S. let's not forget some of the upper-level positions that college-educated types may look for are being outsourced to foreign countries...don't make waves, urine trouble now!

jimHJJ(...D@mmit...)

[kexodusc]

Too funny. "Bend over honey. It's for Uncle Sam." I'll try that on her tonight.

The last time I was in Canada was about 20 years ago. A guy in a booth asked us if we had anything to declare. I said yeah, we had a good time. He laughed and opened the gate. I guess times have changed.

LOL! That's cause you were going home...those customs officers are American...it should have been harder getting into Canada. But 20 years ago if you were white and didn't speak with a russian accent, I don't suppose either country was hard to enter/leave.

I've been lucky travelling in and out of both countries so far. Delta seems to always hold onto my luggage in Boston for an extra day or two though.

[GMichael]

LOL! That's cause you were going home...those customs officers are American...it should have been harder getting into Canada. But 20 years ago if you were white and didn't speak with a russian accent, I don't suppose either country was hard to enter/leave.

I've been lucky travelling in and out of both countries so far. Delta seems to always hold onto my luggage in Boston for an extra day or two though.

Yeah, we had no trouble going in or out back then.

Delta is funny that way. Maybe they were looking for speakers.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, we had no trouble going in or out back then.

Delta is funny that way. Maybe they were looking for speakers.

Ha, this thread reminds me - does anyone else find it more difficult to get out of Walmart than into another country these days?

The Walmart in my town has these huge cancer-causing, x-ray using anti-theft scanner things, a robotic talking voice that shouts at you if you set the scanner off, kind of like that robot in Robo-Cop that malfuntioned and kills everyone, and of course, the 67 year old ladies that pincer attack everyone who tries to leave to get a look see at what you have in your bag...If they weren't so darn cheap on everything I don't think I'd go back :(

[Resident Loser]

Ha, this thread reminds me - does anyone else find it more difficult to get out of Walmart than into another country these days?

The Walmart in my town has these huge cancer-causing, x-ray using anti-theft scanner things, a robotic talking voice that shouts at you if you set the scanner off, kind of like that robot in Robo-Cop that malfuntioned and kills everyone, and of course, the 67 year old ladies that pincer attack everyone who tries to leave to get a look see at what you have in your bag...If they weren't so darn cheap on everything I don't think I'd go back :(

...that more people vote weekly for American Idol than did in the last presidential election?

jimHJJ(...if so, how forked-up is that?...)

[GMichael]

...that more people vote weekly for American Idol than did in the last presidential election?

jimHJJ(...if so, how forked-up is that?...)

I guess it's true. Maybe that's why they have amovie based on that now.

[GMichael]

Ha, this thread reminds me - does anyone else find it more difficult to get out of Walmart than into another country these days?

The Walmart in my town has these huge cancer-causing, x-ray using anti-theft scanner things, a robotic talking voice that shouts at you if you set the scanner off, kind of like that robot in Robo-Cop that malfuntioned and kills everyone, and of course, the 67 year old ladies that pincer attack everyone who tries to leave to get a look see at what you have in your bag...If they weren't so darn cheap on everything I don't think I'd go back :(

And then you have to get out of the parking lot. You have to wait for the old ladies to cross in front of you with their walkers. Then when you're about to go, a half dozen teenagers run in front of you. More walkers and then you can move forward a few inches at a time. Still getting dirty looks from the 19 year olds who yell, "pedestrians have the right of way!" Yup, that's why I stopped. Did they notice that I stopped? Finally, you get to the end of the parking lot where there is a major traffic jam up. Everyone has a stop sign but no one wants to let anyone else go. So much fun.

[topspeed]

The b@$tards that hire the day laborers, who pay them with cash, have the cash that they don't declare as income and so on and so forth, get my drift...more golden showers?

Dude, you have no idea how bad it is. There's a farm labor contractor in my town that recently tried to build a 25,000+ square foot replica of the Palace of Versaille for his new abode! In town, no less! Talk about making your neighbors feel inadequate.

http://www.mbhs.edu/~moggejam/Webpictures/Palace_of_Versailles.jpg


Anywho, he stopped about half-way through due to, uh...legal entanglements. We all figured the IRS had a few questions about how a farm labor contractor is suddenly building a palace. Blood money apparently raises the government ire. What a tool though, eh? How can a person actually enjoy a house like that knowing their fellow men are sleeping in shacks after toiling for 14 hours in the 105 degree sun...and they were responsible for making it happen. Amazing.

As for the illegal immigrants, I have always said the same thing: Welcome to America, just bring your wallet. If you don't, get out.

[rob7]

We try to do our part to keep them out. But even we're burdened by government policy without direction. FYI, you would be surprised at some of the criminal records on these people that 'just want to work'. And those records are only U.S. records. As of right now there really isn't a way to check criminal records in other countries which may or may not maintain competent records. I'm not saying to throw them all back, but some intensive screening has to be done as some of you have already experienced.

What some people may not realize is that a program like this does nothing to help us in deterring future illegal crossers. It is telling them that they can come in illegally and hide for years and they'll get some papers or citizenship. And while it's not extremely difficult to get false ID, it's even easier to get false paperwork to show you've been here for an extended period of time.

Something needs to be done. And no one will ever agree on what that something is.

Photos of interest.

[shokhead]

One of the mouths that speakes for them wants an exception to the draft if there ever is one.

[dean_martin]

Another issue that's just now hitting the courts is whether or not an illegal alien meets the definition of "employee" for workers' compensation purposes. If they don't, then the workers' comp insurance company doesn't have to pay for treatment of on-the-job injuries suffered by aliens. Guess who picks up the tab? If you must be a legal resident citizen to be an "employee" for workers' comp, then employers do not have to count illegals meaning that they can keep their workers' comp premiums down by hiring illegals. Premiums are based in part on number of employees. This happens a lot in the construction industry where independent contractors don't have to carry workers' comp if they have less than a certain number of employees. Depending on the answer to this question, an employer may be able to hire legals until it reaches the limit, then hire as many illegals as they want or need. Then, neither the legals nor the illegals are covered by workers' comp. By it's nature, this question will be addressed on a state-by-state basis. The answer to this question may have an impact on where illegals begin to concentrate.

My state's highest court hasn't answered this question yet, but a recent trial court held that an illegal alien is no different than a resident citizen for workers' comp purposes. Although a lot of people reacted with outrage (for some reason many think the government pays workers' comp benefits), I thought it was a wise and lawful decision.

FYI, in our state (and probably many others), employers of farm laborers are totally exempt from having to carry workers' comp insurance. I think that explains quite a bit.

[SlumpBuster]

Another issue that's just now hitting the courts is whether or not an illegal alien meets the definition of "employee" for workers' compensation purposes. If they don't, then the workers' comp insurance company doesn't have to pay for treatment of on-the-job injuries suffered by aliens. Guess who picks up the tab? If you must be a legal resident citizen to be an "employee" for workers' comp, then employers do not have to count illegals meaning that they can keep their workers' comp premiums down by hiring illegals. Premiums are based in part on number of employees. This happens a lot in the construction industry where independent contractors don't have to carry workers' comp if they have less than a certain number of employees. Depending on the answer to this question, an employer may be able to hire legals until it reaches the limit, then hire as many illegals as they want or need. Then, neither the legals nor the illegals are covered by workers' comp. By it's nature, this question will be addressed on a state-by-state basis. The answer to this question may have an impact on where illegals begin to concentrate.

My state's highest court hasn't answered this question yet, but a recent trial court held that an illegal alien is no different than a resident citizen for workers' comp purposes. Although a lot of people reacted with outrage (for some reason many think the government pays workers' comp benefits), I thought it was a wise and lawful decision.

FYI, in our state (and probably many others), employers of farm laborers are totally exempt from having to carry workers' comp insurance. I think that explains quite a bit.


I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.

Yeah, and I don't know about some of these guys coming from other countries. They sneek in with people already living here. Some are armed. Most are uneducated and coming for work. They bring disease. They just set up right in the middle of your nieghborhood and it goes to crap. They come across water or sneak in through canada. They refuse to learn the native language. They claim a God given right to be here.
Oh, wait, geez, I'm sorry. I was thinking of the Colonists. Silly me. Too bad that John Smith or Hudson Bay Company didn't go back to where they came from.

Sorry, but I don't think times have changed that much from 400 years ago. We are an unusual country with an unusual history as to how we acquired our populace. Just because some people declare we are full doesn't mean we should close the door. If we did that, the door would have closed a long time ago and I know I wouldn' t be here because people have been declaring America "full" for centuries.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh, and while I'm at it:

We should also annex Canada and Mexico and Central America. It shouldn't be too hard, all the states and provinces already have names. And we'll call it our "Manifest Destiny." I think it has a nice ring.

The great thing about bull**** political distractions like immigration, is that they are really just recycled from the past. The dirty Irish are taking our jobs!!! Hell, I was watching a rerun of Good Times last night and there were jokes about gas prices.

[GMichael]

I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.

Yeah, and I don't know about some of these guys coming from other countries. They sneek in with people already living here. Some are armed. Most are uneducated and coming for work. They bring disease. They just set up right in the middle of your nieghborhood and it goes to crap. They come across water or sneak in through canada. They refuse to learn the native language. They claim a God given right to be here.
Oh, wait, geez, I'm sorry. I was thinking of the Colonists. Silly me. Too bad that John Smith or Hudson Bay Company didn't go back to where they came from.

Sorry, but I don't think times have changed that much from 400 years ago. We are an unusual country with an unusual history as to how we acquired our populace. Just because some people declare we are full doesn't mean we should close the door. If we did that, the door would have closed a long time ago and I know I wouldn' t be here because people have been declaring America "full" for centuries.

I don't want to lock all the doors. I just want them to ring the doorbell before they walk in my house uninvited, open the fridge and start drinking my beer. Wait till I offer.

[dean_martin]

I don't think that is much protection for an employer. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but failure to maintain workers comp insurance under a no-fault regime opens you up to direct negligence suits. If these guys get hurt on the job through employer negligence and workers comp doesn't apply, then great, we'll sue the employer directly. Chances are if your the kind of employer that skirts the law regarding insurance requirements and employing illegals, chances are I'll be able to develop some negligence theories under almost any fact pattern. Collectibility might be an issue as always with uninsured, but hey with bankruptcy "deforms" of 2005 means I can keep chasing the employer. Plus its foolish, at least here, to rely on the "independant contractor" argument. Here it takes alot more than a 1099 to establish someone as an IC.



Ok, first of all, you can go and get a judgment against some slick as snot employer and chase him around until you get your money. In the meantime, workers' comp would have paid for your client's surgery, his follow-up care and given him a little money to keep the lights on. Workers' comp is woefully inadequate, but when you have a worker with no health insurance who needs serious and expensive medical care, it's better to have the bird in the hand rather than the two in the bush. Do you think a jury in an employer liability suit is going to be inclined to award adequate damages to an illegal alien? Maybe in "your neck of the woods" but not mine.

Maybe my independent contractor reference needs a few more details. I was thinking, but did not take the time to explain very well, of a construction setting in which you have a developer or builder that hires independent contractors to perform the work. The independent contractor has its own employees. If the IC has less than a certain # of employees then he's exempt from comp requirements and believe me many of them either lie or keep their numbers to the limit to avoid paying comp premiums. I have just such a case now where there's no comp insurance even though the employer exceeded the limit and no applicable general liability insurance and the employee has undergone 2 surgeries paid for by state-subsidized All-Kids insurance. To top it off the employer violated child labor laws in hiring this kid to do the work he was doing. The employer is either in bankruptcy or has just come out of bankruptcy, but a judgment against him won't be worth the paper it's written on. So, I'm going after the builder/developer for comp benefits. The court threw out our negligence claims against the developer, but left us a shot at comp benefits. The main issue is whether the worker is an "employee" of the developer for comp purposes.

Anyhow, I didn't want to go too far off course here, but to not have to count an illegal alien as an employee is an incentive for some to hire them if it will keep their comp premiums down.

[SlumpBuster]

Ok, first of all, you can go and get a judgment against some slick as snot employer and chase him around until you get your money. In the meantime, workers' comp would have paid for your client's surgery, his follow-up care and given him a little money to keep the lights on. Workers' comp is woefully inadequate, but when you have a worker with no health insurance who needs serious and expensive medical care, it's better to have the bird in the hand rather than the two in the bush. Do you think a jury in an employer liability suit is going to be inclined to award adequate damages to an illegal alien? Maybe in "your neck of the woods" but not mine.

I think your right on the money. One in the hand vs. two in the bush is the foundation of any good no fault system. My point was that employer still has exposure. And an illegal alien isn't getting fair treatment at all these days in any woods. (BTW, I hope my "neck of the woods" phrasing didn't come off as snotty, I didn't mean it to. I really do only have a limited knowledge of workers comp)

But, I think your ideas ask a bigger question thats right in line with the thread: Is an illegal alien entitled to equal treatment under the law?

Resident Loser says "you're here illegally, you have no rights." Okay, does that mean I also have forfieted my human rights or just constitutional rights. What if I'm accused of a crime while I'm here, do I have the right to a trial? What if I'm English and I have overstayed a visa, is that different than coming over with a coyote from Mexico?

If we are a nation of laws, not men, and no man is above the law, then how can a person be below the law?

I've always thought that there was alot of wisdom in the maxim that the measure of a society is gauged by how it treats it weakest and most vulnerable members. Its not often that I agree with President Bush, but here I do. Undocumented immigrants are undeniably important, valuable, and contributing members of our society. But, they are also weak and vulnerable. Good for them that they are finding a voice.

[SlumpBuster]

I don't want to lock all the doors. I just want them to ring the doorbell before they walk in my house uninvited, open the fridge and start drinking my beer. Wait till I offer.

I see your frustration, especially as a guy who followed the rules only to see the prospect of the next guy just skating through.

But, they are invited, maybe not expressly. But every person that employs illegals is implicitly inviting them with the prospect of work. Our economic reliance on them is an invite. I don't see them as coming into my house and drinking my beer. Picking fruit for $150/week is more like coming into my backyard at night and surviving on my garbage scraps; I'm not going to see it, and I'm not going to miss what you take. Who am I to begrudge a person the legal status to do it?

[dean_martin]

I think your right on the money. One in the hand vs. two in the bush is the foundation of any good no fault system. My point was that employer still has exposure. And an illegal alien isn't getting fair treatment at all these days in any woods. (BTW, I hope my "neck of the woods" phrasing didn't come off as snotty, I didn't mean it to. I really do only have a limited knowledge of workers comp)

But, I think your ideas ask a bigger question thats right in line with the thread: Is an illegal alien entitled to equal treatment under the law?

Resident Loser says "you're here illegally, you have no rights." Okay, does that mean I also have forfieted my human rights or just constitutional rights. What if I'm accused of a crime while I'm here, do I have the right to a trial? What if I'm English and I have overstayed a visa, is that different than coming over with a coyote from Mexico?

If we are a nation of laws, not men, and no man is above the law, then how can a person be below the law?

I've always thought that there was alot of wisdom in the maxim that the measure of a society is gauged by how it treats it weakest and most vulnerable members. Its not often that I agree with President Bush, but here I do. Undocumented immigrants are undeniably important, valuable, and contributing members of our society. But, they are also weak and vulnerable. Good for them that they are finding a voice.

Yep, you're right. Generally, when an employer who is required to carry workers' comp doesn't, they've exposed themselves to common law negligence claims and penalties. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, some legal and some practical or economic. And no, SB, I didn't think your "neck of the woods" comment was snotty. I lashed out a little because I injected one of my cases as an example. AR is supposed to be an escape for me. I usually don't discuss my job here unless it's election time which is usually accompanied by lawyer bashing.

In fact, the "your neck of the woods" comment is particularly relevant because many of the issues facing illegal immigrants have been and will be decided on a state-by-state basis. National uniformity will take a while.

I may pull out my old Constitutional Law text tomorrow to see what protections, if any, have already been afforded aliens by US Supreme Court decisions. I think I remember trial by jury in criminal cases, maybe 4th Amendment search and seizure issues and the right to a primary education have been addressed.

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

[GMichael]

I see your frustration, especially as a guy who followed the rules only to see the prospect of the next guy just skating through.

But, they are invited, maybe not expressly. But every person that employs illegals is implicitly inviting them with the prospect of work. Our economic reliance on them is an invite. I don't see them as coming into my house and drinking my beer. Picking fruit for $150/week is more like coming into my backyard at night and surviving on my garbage scraps; I'm not going to see it, and I'm not going to miss what you take. Who am I to begrudge a person the legal status to do it?

The people who employ the illegal's are the biggest criminals in this circle IMO.
I have nothing against anyone coming here to better themselves, whether it be by picking apples, chopping meat or being a CEO. But I have a friend who owns a large apple farm here in NY. He has legal immigrants working on his farm every summer/fall. They still work for lower wages than someone who grew up here would. But they take the time to do it right. I even see a lot of the same faces every year.

Being here illegally should not be an acceptable reason to skip over the process. I would be willing to say, OK, you got over on us and we used you. Let's call it even and start over. But start from the start. Do not go to the front of the line. My wife still has to wait three more years before she can even apply for citizenship. She's been here 4 years legally. Where's her free pass?

One of the lines on the citizenship test is, Who is entitled to the constitutional rights in the USA? The answer is, everyone, citizens and aliens whether here legally or not are protected by our laws. Maybe that's just a BS line on the test, but everyone is supposed to be entitled to their rights here. And if (or more likely, when) illegals are being treated unfairly, I'll be on their side every bit of the way. They shouldn't have to deal with people talking down to them (although people do that to me too) or substandard wages or no benefits etc. Just please, fill out the forms, get in line, and don't use the excuse of being here for years as a reason to jump to the head of the line.

[GMichael]

Interestingly, I think the language issue has been addressed. If I remember correctly, there was a case out of Alabama in which the US Supreme Court said that a state could not limit its driver license test to English only.

I think Congress has come up with a plan that places aliens in categories according to the number of years they've been here - 5 years, 2 to 5 years and under 2 years. I have no idea how someone who's been flying under radar can prove they've been here for 5 years. Other than that observation, I have no opinion on the plan yet.

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

[shokhead]

Why does Bush bend over for Fox?

[GMichael]

Why does Bush bend over for Fox?

I'd bend over for the right fox.

[markw]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

[Resident Loser]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

...the ACLU and others of their ilk would be all over TR like white on rice for those sentiments...

jimHJJ(...I have seen the future, I'm glad I'll be dead!...)

[dean_martin]

Hi Dean,

Thanks for your informed input on this thread. It's great to read your take of the situation.

Still, they don't offer the driver license test in Tagalog or Visian. My wife would have loved that. Good thing she learned English.

I still don't think that being here for a "long time" is a basis for moving up in the process. My wife has been here 4 years already and has to wait 3 more to even apply.

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

[GMichael]

Hey GM - my wish is that whatever Congress does it helps your family (and all those who've been going about the process the right way).

Thanks Dean,

I don't think that anything they do now will hurt us at this point. May just piss my wife off a bit. I'd like to see that whatever they do turns out to be fair to everyone. But as my Dad told me, "Who ever told you that life would be fair? It sure wasn't me."

[Resident Loser]

...But as my Dad told me, "Who ever told you that life would be fair? It sure wasn't me."

Fair is a place where pigs and pies win blue ribbons...

jimHJJ(...but then again I was always a bit off...)

[shokhead]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Dreaming. I would say 95% of the kids i know tell me there parents wont speak or learn english and the kids are only allowed to speak spanish at home. Even if they become legal,they do not want to be known as an American,never. They belive this is there's that was taken away from them and now they are taking it back and we owe them. Now i'm getting this from a K-5 school of 1200 students which is around 65-70% spanish. I know the students,there older brothers and sisters,there cousins and parents.

[GMichael]

Dreaming. I would say 95% of the kids i know tell me there parents wont speak or learn english and the kids are only allowed to speak spanish at home. Even if they become legal,they do not want to be known as an American,never. They belive this is there's that was taken away from them and now they are taking it back and we owe them. Now i'm getting this from a K-5 school of 1200 students which is around 65-70% spanish. I know the students,there older brothers and sisters,there cousins and parents.


This is very upsetting. If they don't want to be known as Americans then they should not be living here. Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
My grandmother on my mother's side was born in Italy. She never learned English well. But she tried. And she sent her children to school to learn English. My wife was born in the Philippines. Many of her friends here were also born there. Every one of them has learned English and all of their kids speak it fluently. They still love their old country. But they are proud to be called Americans as well.

[daviethek]

The great thing about bull**** political distractions like immigration, is that they are really just recycled from the past. The dirty Irish are taking our jobs!!! Hell, I was watching a rerun of Good Times last night and there were jokes about gas prices.

Good point. Since we are near the mid-term elections, I expect the ***** marriage issue to magically re-surface. When things aint goin right, make them afraid of something. Illegal immigration exists because of supply and demand. There is plenty of fault all along the supply chain...always has been. . . I see nothing wrong with the visiting worker program. Somebody needs immunity. give it to the workers since the employers already have it. Someone has to gut those chickens.