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Florian
04-07-2006, 02:33 AM
Hi to everyone,

i just had a chat with my friends in Italy and Holland. We came to talk about our Hobbys besides audio and what audio actually means to us and why we started it. My Italian friend for instance used to collect fast cars. Ferrari, Lambo or Aston Martins. Then he collected nice watches and is now into audio. My friend in Holland used to play with little sail boats, then with paintings. Both, like me love music. I personally was in the paper 3 times with custom computers based on liquid nitrogen cooling or watercooling and multi cpu systems. I drove that hobby to the excess just like they did with cars, watches and boats. But once the top is reached they jump to the next hobby. Granted this is fairly complex with audio, considering the speakers i want cost 145K not to mention the 100K Silverking amps and the km runs of Magnan wire etc...

Will there ever be an end to this "addiction"? Most cannot answere those questions, since its a personal choice. I have spent tens of k's in the last few years on this hobby and reached a sonic level that is extremely hard to get to by any normal means if you either dont swim in money or have a normal income with a family etc..

Why this excess? Why drive it to the limit? I do not know the answeres other that its a damn wonderfull feeling and sounds out of this world. But this going nuts! And i am a small fish under the ultra high end people in terms of money and time spent. To me this hobby is on one side the enjoyment of music, but i have to push it to the limits to apreciate it. Its sad but i sit infront of my DIVAS now with about 6K used electronics. It sounds out of this world still, but i am pissed because my pream died and i cant use my good cables and my good amps. It sounds far below what it can sound and i know i will be back up and running in a week, but it pulls me seriously down.

Any inputs? How do you see this hobby?

r m
04-07-2006, 03:56 AM
On a slightly different tack - I am a keen triathlete and one of the things you learn as you progress through the sport is that what you perceived to be beyond your physical limit (summed up by the thought "I could never do that" when considering say, an Ironman or greater distance triathlon) is actually attainable.

It is a very powerful feeling when you realise "I can do more than I thought I could".

The link to music equipment? Basically, to start with you think "Oh, that sounds ok" then you hear a great set of speakers and you realise that you can get more enjoyment from music with the application of some knowledge and specialised equipment.

E-Stat
04-07-2006, 04:49 AM
Will there ever be an end to this "addiction"? ... How do you see this hobby?
I was like you in my youth. Once I discovered I enjoyed listening to music when I was thirteen, I began a climb to find the "ultimate music playback system". Starting at age 17, that climb suddenly became quite steep when I discovered a new audio store where I first experienced Magneplanars, Audio Research electronics, and through some friends, ending up befriending two reviewers for TAS. I was suddenly introduced to a completely new world of aural delights. While many of my friends spent their weekends at the beach or attending rock concerts, I was listening to Prokofiev on Dayton-Wright electrostatics (they got me hooked). By age 18, I had Magneplanars and by 20, full range electrostats. I finally heard HP's incredible system at Seacliff for the first time.

While I continue to hear his system from time to time, that first experience in 1980 effectively ended my original journey. I had found the summit of the mountain. There really was no where else to climb. Then I returned to my world and simply enjoyed the music. I think that experience helped me "release" the obsession because I had finally discovered what I thought I had been looking for.

Last week, HP emailed me about some new speakers, improvements to the big Nolas, and some new battery powered stuff. While I still like hearing those new toys, I no longer feel that I must experience them. Sure my own system has improved over the years, but with gradual changes over a period of decades, not year by year like in my teens. I will never invest the kind of money his "on loan from manufacturers" review system represents. I have other hobbies and interests that give me pleasure as well.

Once you find the top of your hill, I think the obsession over the gear will lessen. Maybe you have already found it but don't yet realize that.

rw

Florian
04-07-2006, 04:57 AM
That sounds like me alright. I started this hobby when i was 18 and since then went through and huge amount of speakers and electronics. Its an incredible system and only missed the icing on the cake. But do not know where else to climb so i will make it once step higher and simpler. I am most likely going to buy the Genesis 350i and then look for a Wadia 861 and a BAT VK60 and be done with it. I want to get my own place this year and am a bit tirred of this addiction. But i dont think anyone can fault a Genesis 350i ;-)

Bernd
04-07-2006, 05:11 AM
Flo,

As E-Stat pointed out the music has to come first and must be the foundation of the enjoyment. Otherwise I do believe dissatisfaction with the Audio equipment will rear it's ugly head now and then and the search starts a-new.

I was 12 when I got hooked on music, and I remeber the moment very well. My dad is/was an Elvis fan and we watched the "Aloha from Hawaii via satelite" broadcast and that was it.
Within a year I sneaked out and went to see Led Zep and got my first system.
My personalety is such that I try to attain as good as I can get and will do whatever (effort) it takes to get it.
I did that with Suits,Shootguns,dog paintings, etc.
But the Audio hobby is slightly different. My system is the best I can justify for my room and for my musical taste. If a bigger room would come along I am not sure I would change anything.I take the hardware as a hobby and music as a passion. To me they are two sides of the same coin.
You're also still very young so patience is not in large supply.
Just enjoy the ride and trust your instincts.

Peace

Bernd:16:

ThunderousBass
04-07-2006, 06:52 AM
When I went to Japan some years back, my business contact said, "let me take you to the best sushi place in Tokyo." Now, I live here in Manhattan and one of my favourite treats is to go to this $20 all you can eat joint that I always thought was really good. I ALMOST told me friend "No! I don't want to know what great sushi tastes like!"

The difference in taste for a $700 sushi meal versus a $20 one? It was...significant. But I still like my little restaurant here.

I wear a stainless Rolex, not a President.

I have a GOOD mid-fi stereo. My wife already thinks I'm nuts for the time and $$ I put into this thing. It sounds good. I like nice crisp sound -- hate the boomy, flabby just loud sound of low-end consumer junk.

I try to avoid addictions because I find that I am content.

But yeah, audiophilism, if you will, is as they say, a "beautiful disease" and one to which I might succumb some day.

Thanks.

topspeed
04-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Meh. It's a hobby, what do you expect?

I have a friend that is a lot like you in terms of his obsession with gear. He isn't as price sensitive as you, but he likes to goof around in his never ending search for the holy grail. He recently got a pair of Whispers and is already talking about replacing his Rowland of less than 6 months. Here's the thing, his Rowland replaced his CJ, which replaced his Halo's, which replaced some tube amp, which yadayadayada...all in the last year or two. His system has changed so many times, I literally have no idea what he has at any given time. All this in search of "musical truth".

Here's the thing, whether or not he would agree with me, it's very clear that for him this is not about the music. It's about the gear. He enjoys switching things in and out and this is absolutely fine. It's his money and if flipping gear makes him happy, who am I to criticize? Besides, I get to listen to all kinds of different stuff all the time :).

Now Flo, we've certainly had our disagreements. But through it all, I would never deny your passion, if not obsession for the hobby. The difference between your approach and my friend's is ego. You see, when he gets new stuff, he never, ever mentions how much it cost. In fact, I practically have to beat it out of him with a stick. When you attach a value to the gear you're running, it's about ego. When the first thing you mention about new speakers is the price, it's ego. When you tell everyone that you are building a $3500 crossover instead of telling us what parts you are using or what improvement you hope to realize, it's about ego. When we listen to you rave on and on for the past year about your Diva's with the new ribbons from Austria and how they are the greatest speaker ever made...and yet here you are replacing them with "Original price 35K" (first line from your other thread) Genesis speakers, it's ego.

Now, at 22 years of age this type of behavior is not only normal, but it should be expected. We were all like that. I honestly believe that once you realize what this hobby actually means to you, whether it be recognition, validation, or a love for music, I think you'll be able to appreciate it a different light. Note that I'm not saying you don't appreciate it now, simply that you see it a bit differently. I doubt you'll ever stop upgrading, and really why should you? It's your passion and asking you to stop upgrading your gear is like asking me to stop buying cars and accessories. However, I think the pace of your upgrade path will slow considerably.

Just my .02 cents.

Feanor
04-07-2006, 08:50 AM
Of money or energy before I hit obsession. Or sometimes it's just frustration that I will never reach the pinacle of whatever hobby it is despite my best efforts.

Florian
04-07-2006, 10:06 AM
Well the reason i often quote the price is to tease some here a little bit. I dont have much cash and work hard for it. And many times i get cut down for spending the money so i say it on purpose.

I will not replace the DIVA with the Genesis, they have old ribbons. Besised, i have two pair of DIVAS ;-)

Another thing, the crossover was for free :lol:

SlumpBuster
04-07-2006, 10:40 AM
How did you manage to get the crossover for free?

Florian
04-07-2006, 10:44 AM
How did you manage to get the crossover for free?

I was asked to design a crossover for a new diva owner here in germany. And as a pay for my work i got the parts for free. :)

Woochifer
04-07-2006, 11:40 AM
Well, from my vantage point, a hobby is not all about collecting the rarest and priciest things associated with a given hobby and then moving onto the next expensive obsession. Just collecting the most expensive items and then moving onto the next diversion isn't about dedication to a hobby, but more about ego gratification, as pointed out by topspeed. Sure, any hobby will have the rarified expensive and scarce niche, but typically will encompass a much broader range of interests. Most hobbies are broad and inclusive, and reflect a tremendous diversity in its participants.

For example, not all car hobbyists are into collecting exotic sports cars. You got plenty of other car communities out there that focus more on specific areas. Some people are into Mustangs, others are into off-road rally cars, while others are into compact car tuning. It's a huge hobby, and consists of a lot more than just a few exotic museum pieces. I used to own an old VW Bug, and drove that thing for 10 years. Along the way, I met a lot of fellow VW enthusiasts, but all of us had somewhat different interests. My interest was primarily restoring my car to stock condition and building up the audio system. I knew someone else who was constantly tinkering with the engine and chassis for off-road racing, while another enthusiast focused on engine modifications strictly for speed. Even now, the VW Bug has a huge community of hobbyists who are devoted to those cars for a variety of reasons. It's certainly not because those cars are fast, fancy, rare, or expensive.

In sports card collecting, the holy grails of the hobby are the 1910 Honus Wagner card and the 1952 Topps set. A lot of my friends have collected sports cards, but none of them have either of these items, nor do they care to pursue them. For them, the hobby is about focusing on the things that spark their interests, whether that's specific players, specific teams, specific sets, or specific companies. They don't need to pursue the rarest and most expensive items, only the ones that mean the most to them personally.

In audio, not all hobbyists care about the so-called "high end" segment of the market. Most of us get into the hobby out of an interest in music, and it's our choice and focus in music that often dictates the type of system that we go with. Why do you think vintage JBLs have such a large and devoted following? Plenty of self-described audiophiles have ridiculed JBL's speakers over the years, but the interests of the JBL hobbyists are about serving the music that they like, and that's often very different from what those audiophiles might listen to.

Friends of mine with whom I got into the audio hobby all had different interests and preferences. Some of them were into modifying existing equipment, while others were into swapping out components. But, all of us were into trying new things out, whether that entailed changes to the setup or the equipment itself. That did not have to involve shelling out a lot of money. In audio, and in any hobby, there's a lot of variation and diversity of interests and goals. No one approach is the end all authoritative way of pursuing a hobby.

In general, I prefer to go through an intensive period of comparison listening when I'm looking to purchase something, build up my system piece by piece, and leave it alone for a while. The reason is because what I play on my system is more important to me than what equipment I play it on. Given a choice between constantly looking to the next component upgrade, and having more money available for CDs, DVDs, going to movies, and getting out to watch live music, the choice is a no brainer for me because the music/movies matter first. And in the meantime, I'll try to maximize the sound quality out of what I have. Constantly looking to the next upgrade can be counterproductive in the end because it can cost a lot, divert funds away from buying more music, and detract from the enjoyment of the existing system, since the listening might then focus on finding faults with the current system and identifying reasons to upgrade.

Florian
04-07-2006, 11:46 AM
Well i do not do this because of the money. I just happen to like expensive stuff, i dont know why. I found a replacement ribbon for the Genesis so maybe ill buy it. Just for the fun of the hobby.

bubslewis
04-07-2006, 07:56 PM
Of money or energy before I hit obsession. Or sometimes it's just frustration that I will never reach the pinacle of whatever hobby it is despite my best efforts.

Even worse for me. I excell at nothing, I am totally hooked on nothing, I will never reach the pinnacle of anything, anywhere, any time. Do I have severe low self esteem and lack of confidence? Not really, maybe I've OD'd on practicality. Plus throw in some amount of laziness.

HOWEVER, if I ever have the time and the money before I turn completely senile, I will trade in my 1.6's (that won't even arrive until this Wednesday) and move to higher levels, and maybe higher.... and then still higher. Maybe I'll get there by accident.

JoeE SP9
04-07-2006, 09:39 PM
For you Florian:
In the inner city we have a saying, "the nicer the nice the higher the price". It is good to be proud of and show off what you have. It is rude and crude to constantly mention cost. People here know what good equipment costs. We really don't care what you paid. How it sounds is all that matters.

I have been involved in this hobby longer than many of you have been alive. I purchased a Fisher KX-90 kit amplifier in 1966 and have never looked back. Like many of you I also have other interests. I ride (weather permitting) a custom made bicycle with a full Campagnolo Groupo. Topspeed, like you I am a motor head. I have rebuilt engines and cars ranging from an 1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Spider to a 1963 VW Beatle that when finished had an 1800cc engine and 180HP. Loosening and tightening the gland nut on the bug's crankshaft was no fun. I wrote about my current car in a post on the thread about cars. I have a modified 500cc Honda Interceptor in my basement waiting for my brother to finish my custom paint job. R/C Model airplanes and helicopters and of course R/C cars both gas and electric are also one of my hobbies. I take photographs with a Nikon F2 and develop them in my darkroom using a Durst enlarger.

I have found that with most of my hobbies I reach a certain point and my craving for acquiring more or better gadgetry in that area has tapered off. This doesn't mean that I leave it alone. I just reach a point where I have all the "things" I feel are necessary for me to enjoy that hobby to my satisfaction. I have pretty much reached that point with audio equipment although I am looking for some new speakers so I can get rid of my subwoofers. The music itself is the reason that I started with and stayed with audio. There have been periods when having the newest piece off gear has been an obsession. Although those periods end the love of music is always there. New and interesting music (to me) causes me to continue to spend money on more LP's and CD's. The quest for music is what this hobby is all about for me. I just wish there were more good recordings out there. The flat sounding multi-tracked pan potted stuff most record companies issue is what I have to buy. There aren't enough Chesky's and the like out there.

Nuff said! I'm going to listen to some music and drink a couple of Pillsner Urquell's.:cool:

Bernd
04-07-2006, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=JoeE SP9(


Nuff said! I'm going to listen to some music and drink a couple of Pillsner Urquell's.:cool:[/QUOTE]

Now you're talking.But be careful when you drink and spin!:)

Peace

Bernd:16:

drseid
04-08-2006, 02:37 AM
I guess in my case (as with most) it all comes down to diminishing returns and my own financial resources constraints...

I am always on the hunt for pieces of audio gear (both expensive and inexpensive) that get me to take notice. I tend to roam around the CES shows in Las Vegas and the like meeting the designers and listening to what is out there... The thing is, right now, even if I wanted a significant upgrade I couldn't afford it, so I just enjoy what I have. I actually am quite happy with my system as it stands, so this does not bother me much really...

Could I make some improvements? ...absolutely. I'll just upgrade when I find something that I can afford that will *really* improve the sound of my system. I am always looking, but so far I just have not found it. I guess I am kind of a "bang for the buck" kind of guy at heart. I find that the looking is half the fun though (buy or no buy). I just like hearing good music on good systems, even if I will never be able to afford them like the VR-11 system I heard at CES a year ago. I know I will never be able to pay the 120K for the speakers alone (nor *would* I even if I *could* afford them), but I hold no grudges against someone who can and does buy, as everyone has their own bounderies of what is reasonable to pay for good sound no matter how marginal the increase in quality is.

---Dave

JoeE SP9
04-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Now you're talking.But be careful when you drink and spin!:)

Peace

Bernd:16:

If I drink enough and watch the record labels as they rotate it makes my head spin. I just sit down have another beer and go to sleep.:cool:

Peter_Klim
04-13-2006, 07:21 PM
Hi to everyone,

i just had a chat with my friends in Italy and Holland. We came to talk about our Hobbys besides audio and what audio actually means to us and why we started it. My Italian friend for instance used to collect fast cars. Ferrari, Lambo or Aston Martins. Then he collected nice watches and is now into audio. My friend in Holland used to play with little sail boats, then with paintings. Both, like me love music. I personally was in the paper 3 times with custom computers based on liquid nitrogen cooling or watercooling and multi cpu systems. I drove that hobby to the excess just like they did with cars, watches and boats. But once the top is reached they jump to the next hobby. Granted this is fairly complex with audio, considering the speakers i want cost 145K not to mention the 100K Silverking amps and the km runs of Magnan wire etc...

Will there ever be an end to this "addiction"? Most cannot answere those questions, since its a personal choice. I have spent tens of k's in the last few years on this hobby and reached a sonic level that is extremely hard to get to by any normal means if you either dont swim in money or have a normal income with a family etc..

Why this excess? Why drive it to the limit? I do not know the answeres other that its a damn wonderfull feeling and sounds out of this world. But this going nuts! And i am a small fish under the ultra high end people in terms of money and time spent. To me this hobby is on one side the enjoyment of music, but i have to push it to the limits to apreciate it. Its sad but i sit infront of my DIVAS now with about 6K used electronics. It sounds out of this world still, but i am pissed because my pream died and i cant use my good cables and my good amps. It sounds far below what it can sound and i know i will be back up and running in a week, but it pulls me seriously down.

Any inputs? How do you see this hobby?


For me, I believe there comes a point of diminishing returns in SQ for the $$ and when it comes (came) to that point to stop myself from listening to anything better than the cost of what I paid for my system and instead get "addicted" to listening to the "music".

The only time I really visit audio sites/forums is when I need to inquire information to help decide on the purhcases I need to make. The rest of the time I spend enjoying listening to my system.

The audio upgrade "bug" for me is finished. My new bug is creating my own music. Just started playing the guitar and I'm hooked!

GMichael
04-14-2006, 06:51 AM
It was easier for me to be obsessed with billiards that with music equipment. I spent about as much on pool as Florian has spent on audio. But I always spent the money that I had won in a tournament. That made it much easier for me to justify. No matter how much I put into audio, there are no returns as far as cash. Sure, I made some odd cash back in the late 70's & 80's playing with a local band. But it was never enough to make a difference. We spent half of what we made on beer & smoke. And it's not the same as HT at all.
No more obsessions for me. Except maybe my house. If I ever have one.

Florian
04-14-2006, 05:33 PM
WOW!

Thank you all very much for the replys and the well made points. I enjoyed reading them!

superpanavision70mm
04-14-2006, 09:07 PM
I'll take a different approach than anyone else on this...

Fact: It's all just stuff! Stuff is all that it is. Whether it costs $1 or $100,000 it's all just stuff. How do I know? Well, when a hurricane rips through a house in seconds it's not concerned with how great your audio room sounds and is certainly not concerned with the money spent. A hurricane tears it all apart just the same. Hobbies are fun, but there comes a point when it becomes an addiction for which we sacrafice things such as family, friends, ourselves. We might not think so, but it's true. We spend money on ourselves in selfish ways to indulge ourselves and in the end...we are not much happier. Sure that new amp or speaker sounds great, but that doesn't mean we wake up any more satisfied. The things of this world all go away in the end. I agree that we should make the most of this life and enjoy things while we have them, but I am not going to scour the earth looking for the perfect everything just so I can have a moment of bliss. There needs to be a point where we reach satisfaction and that is NOT going to happen through speakers, or through cars or (insert object of your choice). There needs to be more to life ....life is not just all about US. Selfish people die alone and miserable. I am not trying to preach here, but rather express my personal conviction, which is to give to others and think of myself second. I live what I would consider a full life. I am happy with who I am and what I have. I am not saying that I don't buy things for myself because I do...however, It's not what I need to make myself happy.

bobsticks
04-15-2006, 06:41 AM
Hey Flo,
You know many times the answers to the questions we face in this little hobby of ours are dictated by context and situation. People make decisions based on "where they are in life"-- sometimes financially, spiritualy, and even physically. I've read many things that I agree with, and I think you'll agree that there are as many opinions and choices as there are people. And that's ok.
Some people find limitations financially and that is understandable as this stuff is expensive. Others find a level of spiritual contentment with what they have and/or choose to spend their income across a wide array of passtimes.
Speaking personally, the "physical" part is the issue. What say you fly over here on my tab and we go shopping. I've been doing quite a bit of auditioning in my stay here at AR, and I like the MLs. And I mean the big ones. And I can afford them, so we could have 'em delivered right away and get to tweaking.And since i am into SACD and DVD-A, we would have to get at minimum of four Prodigys and a center and probably a couple REL subwoofers and amps for the lot of them...oh yeah, I own a condo downtown. Neither the ability to play at max dB or sufficient breathing room for these beauties exists in my current situation. So, for today the KEFs get a reprieve.
Why not buy a house? Well, I've been transferred three times in the last three years by my company. I'm the guy that comes in and solves problems and I'm treated pretty well for it. That said, part of the trade off is frequent residential upheavals. I can just envision the scene after you move into your apartment and have successfully moved the Apogees and related gear ( and YOU will move them, you gonna trust the moving man with your babies???).
Florian rubs aching back and slumps to the floor while simultaneously capping the first of many malted beveredges: " I never want to go through that s@#T again!"

I'm not really excited about that prospect either.
Another issue, I live in one of the only cities in the world with a 52 week-a-year symphony. I could conceivably attend live classical performances two or three times a week if I felt it necessary. As it is I attend regularly twice a month. And this is just one genre of music. The city is filled with opportunties of all sorts.
My point of this is not to impress anyone with the fact that I've got a little scratch. I too have worked hard, but frankly I'm on my third career at 35, so I feel grateful for the grace from above just to be able to be in this position. ( And maybe that's part of it, have you ever failed at anything? I sure have and it makes any level of success sweeter while at the same time allowing me to understand that everything is situational. Notice I said that today the KEFs get a reprieve. Tomorrow could be a different story--MLs all around!! )
I love what you do Flo. And, I respect you as an authority to an extent ( with all your success in computers I don't understand why you don't get into the speaker biz, certainly could fill a niche ) but not everyone lives like you do. I'm type-A as hell. Music is one of the few things that I do that is not competitive and I won't ever allow it to be as such. On my list of favorite things "wine, women, and song" ranks pretty high and SACDs rank top-twenty. Living within a community of friends, some music-lovers and some not, ranks even higher than that. Garden fresh tomatos rank about fifty-third. "Keeping up with joneses" in terms audio equipment doesn't even hit the top one thousand. It's all about utility for yours truly. It has been my experience that if life gets put on hold because of equipment (and this holds true for any endeavor or hobby) that my stuff is starting to own me. And, for me, that is no good.
The other night it took a break from the tornado/hailstorm norm of the midwest. Upon returning from a night spent with good friends, I popped in Kind of Blue and just stared out into the lights of the city, imagining possibilities. The sounds were spectacular and uplifting and that is all that needs to be said.
And having written that last paragraph it occurs to me that I could have avoided the lengthy diatribe and just scribed that--but then that would have missed the point of sharing ideas and ideals within our community which is what this forum is all about right? Best wishes and I hope you find what your looking for. Screed over.

...except to say this: I too collected watches at one point. I still own two Audemars and one Breitling and all three are in the shop for repairs. Sometimes ya gotta separate the stuff from THE STUFF