Playing LPs with a 44-year-old needle

[Geoffcin]

Denon USA begins importing classic DL-103 phono cartridge again!

Full Story;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12095676/

[davidhiggins]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on

[JoeE SP9]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on

Haev you listened to vinyl played on a well set up TT? If you have not you are in for a surprise. Many people including myself think vinyl sounds better. Go somewhere and listen then come back with an informed opinion. If you are old enough to remember the introduction of CD's you know that a lot of folks sold their vinyl collection. Most of the sellers regret their decision. I don't. I bought lots of good vinyl at fire sale prices. I play a lot of that vinyl today.:cool:

[E-Stat]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on
For many of use oldsters, we have collected a library of vinyl, not all of it available on CD. As Joe mentioned, most folks really have no idea how well it can sound on good gear.

rw

[JohnMichael]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on


We are not living in the past. We listen to currently produced turntables, cartridges and new vinyl. I agree that you need to hear a quality analog set-up.:cornut:

Now a gramophone, that would be living in the past.

[SlumpBuster]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on


This guy is a troll. Vinyl lovers live in the past, but he also claims hell will freeze over before he buys an HD-DVD player.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=16740

So, no past and no future means he's solidly rooted in the present? But, if that is true, why does he list a laserdisc player in his equipment?

[RickG]

I just listened to some old vinyls this afternoon with my new SVS 's and Denon. I think is has a marvelous sound. It was a set my mom bought me from Neiman Marcus First Edition series with Eugene Ormandy conducting the Philadelphia Phil. in Brahms' 4th Symphony. They still sound great! Certainly better than the old cassettes I'm stuck with.

[emorphien]

That's one cartridge I'm interested in... yippee for Denon bringing it back full force.

[dav305z]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on
How many reasons do you want? Here are a couple:

1) Cheaper especially if you like a lot of classic rock. Got Tommy in perfect shape for $4. Sounds great.

2) Sounds great. CD's sound perfect, but sterile. And again, if you like classic rock, you're in for some serious background hiss from poorly done remasterings (Beatles).

3) Album art - the art starts with the packaging. When was the last time you got a full size poster like the one that comes with Dylan's greatest hits.

I'm 20 btw. Grew up with CD's.

[emorphien]

CDs can and do sound great, but different music just lends itself better to LPs in my opinion. I'm not hard on CDs like some vinyl nuts, but I prefer to take advantage of what both can offer. LIke dav305z I didn't exactly grow up with vinyl. I'm 23, but I've added some LPs to my collection.

[davidhiggins]

reason i will not buy a hd dvd player my hd tv has analog inputs only why should i pay top dollar for for a player that will not give me true hd

[davidhiggins]

For many of use oldsters, we have collected a library of vinyl, not all of it available on CD. As Joe mentioned, most folks really have no idea how well it can sound on good gear.

rw
How old is old ? I have been around long before stereo LPs were on the market I go back to 78 RPM. and who can come up with the price they want for turntables i have seen some for $6000.00 and up.only for the people who have so much $$$ I am not in this group

[canuckle]

reason i will not buy a hd dvd player my hd tv has analog inputs only why should i pay top dollar for for a player that will not give me true hd

Your HD tv won't play HD, eh? You're clearly well-informed and knowledgeable.

[ruadmaa]

For many of use oldsters, we have collected a library of vinyl, not all of it available on CD. As Joe mentioned, most folks really have no idea how well it can sound on good gear.

rw

I highly disagree that vinyl sounds better. I have a Pioneer PL540 turntable here that is using a Shure V15 type four cartridge. It certainly doesn't sound better than digital sound. I have a few hundred albums laying around here (I have collected vinyl since the 1960's) and quite frankly, it is painful to play them. Most of my vinyl records look pristine but when played are loaded with click and pops. I certainly wouldn't trade vinyl for digital. As an experiment, take one of your best vinyl albums and record it to a digital format and then play both back. You might be in for a big surprise since both will sound identical.

[emaidel]

While I think LP's can and do often sound great, I feel quite strongly that the medium with the better potential is the CD, or digital medium. I own well over 100 brilliantly engineered Telarc classical CD's which not one single LP in my collection of over 1,000 comes close to in terms of sonic purity. And, yes, I have some really awful sounding CD's too, but the best sound I get out of my system has not come from a record, and instead from a CD.

Insofar as the original purpose of this thread, the Denon 103D was a fine cartridge in 1978, and has been eclipsed by many since. The Stanton Collector's Series 100 (which I own, and very few of which were ever manufactured) is an "ordinary" moving magnet design that all but blows away the 103D. I suspect that can be said of other cartridges too, be they moving magnets or moving coils. And I'm NOT referring to those in the $1,000+ price range.

[MR Bubble]

I, too, grew up with vinyl. I was able to acquire some really rare albums while in Germany. Ah, they sounded great! Problem is, my collection (and turntable) were all lost in a fire in 1991. I've been digital ever since. I don't know where to even buy good LP's any more. I just hope more and more old albums get remastered on CD and improvements continue. Sometimes I'm really impressed, while other times I'm just sickened with the sound. Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here on CD is a perfect example of disaster. Never did the LP sound so muted and disgusting. Oh well, maybe someday, someone may get it right.

[scotmtl68]

I highly disagree that vinyl sounds better. I have a Pioneer PL540 turntable here that is using a Shure V15 type four cartridge. It certainly doesn't sound better than digital sound. I have a few hundred albums laying around here (I have collected vinyl since the 1960's) and quite frankly, it is painful to play them. Most of my vinyl records look pristine but when played are loaded with click and pops. I certainly wouldn't trade vinyl for digital. As an experiment, take one of your best vinyl albums and record it to a digital format and then play both back. You might be in for a big surprise since both will sound identical.

Sorry, I have to disagree. In my opinion, vinyl on a good set-up is better than the clinical sound of digital. I don't know much about your Pioneer turntable, but I can tell you that with my analogue set-up I get very close to my digital set-up in terms of good sound ... not to mention keeping that analogue warmth. Especially considering my analogue set-up is fairly low budget hi-fi and that the digital side of my set-up costs approx 3 times as much. I am going to be assembling a Linn LP 12 set-up very soon and I bet this will sound even better and surpass my digital. I fell into the trap of going digital and have amassed a big collection of CD versus vinyl, but I am going back to vinyl as my preferred listening choice.

[rchogan42]

Any thoughts of how I might get my 1916 Edison Victrola hooked up to my system?

Just Kidding, but the victrola sure does work nice when the power goes out...

[basite]

Denon USA begins importing classic DL-103 phono cartridge again!

Yeah!

it was here in belgium for as long as I can remember, but nevertheless, good to know alot of americans are going for a new cart in the near future....


i have the 103 and it rocks, it's just magnificent (yes, the ortofon om-5e I used before wasn't THE best cart to compare it with but anyways)

if i ever intend to buy a better cart, it could just be the 103R, to stay in the same style, because i love this one...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.


P.S. : vinyl ruules!!!

[jrhymeammo]

if i ever intend to buy a better cart, it could just be the 103R, to stay in the same style, because i love this one...

P.S. : vinyl ruules!!!

Nah.. try to save your money for this.
http://denon.jp/company/release/images/dl103sa/dl103sa1.jpg
but they are only making 2000 units so it might be too late...

[royphil345]

WOW... What's that!!!???

No... seriously... I'm done for awhile...

[jrhymeammo]

Do you think so? C'mon Phil, you cant fool me.:ihih:

[aevans]

Some vinyl is worth the extra effort, ELP's lucky man with a cartrage that can get down to 5hz compaired directly to the cd is a perfect example, there is so much more information in the vinyl that it makes it painful to listen to the cd.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Aevans,
I never had a chance to say welcome to AR, so....Welcome.

whotta hell is ELP?

[aevans]

thanks for the welcome.

if you have a good sub and your record player is in a safe position the bottom end will drop like a rock to 30hz with a lot of sub sonic going on as well.

Emerson Lake & Palmer
http://www.amazon.com/Emerson-Lake-Palmer/dp/B0000033OZ/
http://cgi.ebay.com/Emerson-Lake-Palmer-ELP-LP-DEBUT-1969-Lucky-Man-RCA-E_W0QQitemZ170069827524QQihZ007QQcategoryZ306QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[jrhymeammo]

Emerson Lake & Palmer


Good idea, I think I'll clean the Trilogy and have it a spin.

Thanks,

[nightflier]

I know it's not an exact comparison, but I spent some time over the holidays putting together a new 2-channel system and then comparing the same DG recordings on both vinyl and CD and I don't know why but the vinyl, despite the occasional pops, just has more breadth, depth, and life to it. I know that there might be mastering and recording differences between the formats, but it's generally the case that the vinyl sounds better.

That said, it's a whole lot easier to get from opening the box to final setup with a CD player than with a turntable. I think it took me about ten times as long to configure my turntable to just the way I liked it. The CD part was pretty much plug-n-play. After much cursing and a few fits or rage, I think that it's not the sound that gives CD the edge, but the convenience. But after all that work, why would I not take some time to enjoy it?

Regarding the DL-103, I only have one turntable, but in my setup it was not a stellar performer. I have a DL-103 that I bought used, so that also may be the problem. In any case, I doubt I'll buy the new one. Maybe all the hoopla about the DL-103 is more nostalgia than actual performance. I bought mine because of this hoopla and well, I wasn't blown over.

One other comment: the reviewer in the original article is using the Belari phono preamp, and I have to say that is also not an impressive unit.

[royphil345]

I agree that a separate step-up and a Bellari is a pretty unlikely MC setup. I don't see much in this article that looks like a review. I'd have to question if this guy's even heard a 103 or a Bellari.

May I ask what cart you're using? If it beats CDs and the 103, I'd definitely like to add it to my "maybe someday" list.

[nightflier]

Roy,

I'm currently using a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood and haven't yet found something that compares. I know its a MM and in a different league from the Denon, but I really like the sound better. I've tried quite a few other cartridges that get a lot of play on these forums, but I'm getting a bit irritated with all the setup that goes along with configuring the cartridges, so I'm gona stay with this one for a while. Anyhow, Beethoven never sounded so good in my system.

[royphil345]

Thanks Nightflier. I've certainly heard good things about Clearaudio. Maybe someday... LOL

I'm using a DL-103R which seems to be a nice balance between cartridges that sounded slightly too thin in my system and cartridges that had a nice punch, but sounded a little too "hard" in the highs. I'm sure there's better to be had out there though... I can see why a classical lover might not like the 103. I would say the 103R's strongest points are taming rock and jazz a little without killing all air and detail. The R version sounds decent on classical to me. I can see how the "regular" 103 or even the "R" version might not have the clarity to satisfy some.

[SAEA501]

Been using a 103D in an SME 3009 for years. Nice piece.

[royphil345]

Been using a 103D in an SME 3009 for years. Nice piece.

That's the elliptical one? Yeah... I'd sure like to get my hands on one of those. Lucky!!!

[squeegy200]

One of the biggest challenges of the phono setup is matching the cartridge mechnically as well as electronically. I don't have to replay all of the protractors, scales, brushes, etc necessary to properly setup a cartridge in a tonearm.

But what about calibration for optimum performance with a phono stage? Is the impedence 100k or 47k or somewhere in between? What about capacitance? 75pf, 100, 200, 300?

Is there enough gain? Is 30db sufficient or will it drive my preamp/amp into clipping? Or is 60db too much for my line stage?

Not too many of us have the resources to swap phono stages/preamps around until we discover the right synergy of cartridge and electronics. But unless your phono stage has that kind of adjustability, there could very well be a mismatch that does not allow your cartridge to reach its full potential making it sound aweful.

Just my thoughts. Its a vinyl enthusiasts dilema.

[JDaniel]

Why people listen to LPs ? I think they are living in the past time to move on

Yeah, I wouldn't want an old 60s model Camaro, Cuda, or Mustang. And forget about vintage McIntosh Tube equipment. Who wants to live in the past?

JD

[nightflier]

But what about calibration for optimum performance with a phono stage? Is the impedence 100k or 47k or somewhere in between? What about capacitance? 75pf, 100, 200, 300?

Is there enough gain? Is 30db sufficient or will it drive my preamp/amp into clipping? Or is 60db too much for my line stage?

Well, that's were a good phono preamp will make all the difference. I have a Phonomena preamp and while I still have to take the cover off to switch gain/capacitance/etc., it has just about every setting you can think of. That said, I bet the company would have sold a whole lot more of these units if they would just have put the switches on the outside - I'd like to have a word with the nitwit who value-engineered that out of the final production model.

There are some others that have multiple easily adjustable settings from companies like Krell, PS Audio, and Jolida that I wouldn't mind giving a look-listen to, but they are hard to come by on the used market. I also used to own an early 80's Yamaha preamp that had all these adjustments built in. Back in those days that was pretty standard on mid-to-high fi gear.