AC cables

[buffle]

I've been reading a lot about "high-end" mains cords, and I thought i'd share some info from an electronic engineers viewpoint.

First of all, i'm not sure how one or two metres of expensive cable is supposed to make much of a difference over a cable distance of a few kilometres. Think about how the power got to the powerpoint in the first place. I don't think that many power supply grids are wired using audiophile mains cable! Add this to the "cheepest they could find" cable the electrician used for wiring the house. The two metres of audiophile mains cord is, at this point, seeming futile.

Lets assume that you live in a city wired completely from the power station to the houses with audiophile cable, and that the electricians all used the same. Alternatively, lets assume that you use a power filter (after all, the power station probably produces a lot of electrical noise over the supply anyway). You now have to understand the type of current you're dealing with. ac. ac power is ussually 50Hz or 60Hz - right in the low audio range. It is therefore noise in itself (yes, that power you paid so much to protect for two metres is noise anyway). The manufacturers are well aware of this problem, of course, and therefore after rectification to DC they use filtering in the form of capacitors and sometimes inductors. The capacitors compensate for the dips in the rectified voltage which removes the ac noise. The better the filtering in the power supply stage, the cleaner the available voltage rails for the amp.

To cut a long story short, the $500 and up two metre lead doesn't have a hope of making any difference, however improving the filtering of the power supply rails could prove very worthwhile (providing the manufacturer has not already gone to a lot of effort in this area - most can be improved!). Power supply mods are also fairly inexpensive.

[E-Stat]

I've been reading a lot about "high-end" mains cords, and I thought i'd share some info from an electronic engineers viewpoint.
Have you ever sampled any?


First of all, i'm not sure how one or two metres of expensive cable is supposed to make much of a difference over a cable distance of a few kilometres.
Reverse your thinking. It is the first two meters. The villains to be filtered are found throughout your house, not at the sub station. Ever use a water filter? Here is an alternative perspective by the engineer behind the fine GamuT audio products:

<a href="http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=117899&highlight=power+Ole+Lund+Christensen&r=&session="]http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=117899&highlight=power+Ole+Lund+Christensen&r=&session=">Another engineer's perspective</a href>


To cut a long story short, the $500 and up two metre lead doesn't have a hope of making any difference...
You'll never convince those whose opinion is based upon direct experience. The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but present. Removing RF from the signal removes a slightly bright haze from the sound allowing more musical detail to be revealed. Just last night I plugged the CD transport and DAC in my vintage system into a power conditioner and experienced the same kind of benefit.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...You'll never convince those whose opinion is based upon direct experience. The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but present. Removing RF from the signal removes a slightly bright haze from the sound allowing more musical detail to be revealed. Just last night I plugged the CD transport and DAC in my vintage system into a power conditioner and experienced the same kind of benefit...

...If you have enough RF, that for some reason (most likely wire orientation) is entering your system through a power cord, and is having an audible effect on it, there may be some reason to seek out a cord with shielding to ameliorate the problem...and that's only if relocation doesn't help...however, it is far more likely that the RF is impinging on your electrical service everywhwere but those last (or first, if you prefer, I won't get into the debate over the semantics involved with that one) six feet of wire.

A power conditioner may be the answer for this and other power-related problems, but to compare a passive device such as a PC with an line conditioner really undermines your credibility IMO.

BTW, when visiting my local Borders recently I thumbed through a couple of Stereophile/TAS-type mags...seems as though Shunyata is advertising it's $99 PC and they have gone to great pains to make it obvious that the cord has a UL rating! Not certain what it means, but my gut feeling is that It may be a first for them.

jimHJJ(...maybe it's the (j)neutron effect...)

[E-Stat]

A power conditioner may be the answer for this and other power-related problems, but to compare a passive device such as a PC with an line conditioner really undermines your credibility IMO.
The cords I refer to all have filter networks and use multiple shielding strategies. They're not just wire n' plugs as you seem to assume. The CDPs in my systems (a significant source of RF) are all located very close to the amplification. I also use a range of conditioners that are all passive in nature.

rw

[Bernd]

Here is an experiment I did last year.
In my study I use a Teac 300 system with Wharfedale Diamonds 8.1.
Out of interest I took the Isotek Titan,Minisub and Kimber PK10 and PK14 Palladian Powercords and wired the Teac's up through these.
Could £3000 of Mains equipment improve a £600 System?

You better believe it.

It was a revelation, not that I advocate doing such a buy as a first system, but it just shows the difference it can make. And as E-Stat rightly said it is these first one or two meters that need to be taken care off.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[JohnMichael]

I to hear an improvement with my $49 PS Audio Power Punch ac cord over the cord that came with the Cambridge Audio Azur 640A. The sound is cleaner and more dynamic. I can not explain why but there is an improvement. I do not know if spending more money on a power cord will give better results in my system but the Power Punch is an improvement and well worth the money.

[Resident Loser]

Here is an experiment I did last year.
In my study I use a Teac 300 system with Wharfedale Diamonds 8.1.
Out of interest I took the Isotek Titan,Minisub and Kimber PK10 and PK14 Palladian Powercords and wired the Teac's up through these.
Could £3000 of Mains equipment improve a £600 System?

You better believe it.

It was a revelation, not that I advocate doing such a buy as a first system, but it just shows the difference it can make. And as E-Stat rightly said it is these first one or two meters that need to be taken care off.

Peace

Bernd:16:

...but there was a time when even the most rabid aftermarket afficionados qualified their claims with phrases like "...the effects are subtle at best..." and "...require highly resolving (read: expensive)systems..."

Now even that last vestige of plausible pretext is passe' ?

jimHJJ(...zut alors!...)

[Resident Loser]

I to hear an improvement with my $49 PS Audio Power Punch ac cord over the cord that came with the Cambridge Audio Azur 640A. The sound is cleaner and more dynamic. I can not explain why but there is an improvement. I do not know if spending more money on a power cord will give better results in my system but the Power Punch is an improvement and well worth the money....

...another iconic totem bites the dust...

Upon visiting the PS Audio site, I find that the holy-of-holys, the oft venerated hospital-grade connector is now considered second-rate...of course that's because they don't use 'em and have something new to entice the tweakier of the breed...and none of this sets off the bells and whistles?

I'll bet JR is p!$$ed...

jimHJJ(...oh mon Dieu!...)

[Resident Loser]

The cords I refer to all have filter networks and use multiple shielding strategies. They're not just wire n' plugs as you seem to assume. The CDPs in my systems (a significant source of RF) are all located very close to the amplification. I also use a range of conditioners that are all passive in nature.

rw

...IMHO the whole thing is residus de taureaux!

If your CDPs are a significant source of RFI, it isn't simply the power cords...the units themselves radiate this stuff, just like PCs(personal computers that is) and nearly every electrical processor-driven device...If I were to "scan" any such device with an inductive, amplified probe and suitable test transducer, I would "hear" predominantly 60Hz AC at the cord and the lower artifacts of higher freq digital hash depending of the area of the device being probed. Of course the limits to be heard would be below 20k...anything above it goes into ultrasonics...so attempting to filter out anything above 60Hz via a line cord doesn't quite do it...same with ICs, filtering anything above 20kHz won't stop it...it's the devices proximity to the amplifier that accounts for any RFI or RFI induced sonic abnormalities.

If you ever heard inductive noise, realized the level amplification required to make it an audible problem and took into account the frequencies that actually comprise the realm of RFI, it would be obvious how much of a non-issue it is in actual practice when applied to our little slice of the frequency pie.

Even if your cords and cables incorporate specific band-pass filters, it's like closing a window on a house with no roof.

jimHJJ(...and that analogy you cited earlier?...I'm not quite sure it holds water...)

[E-Stat]

...IMHO the whole thing is residus de taureaux!Your loss my friend. I find experience a far better teacher than theory alone.

rw

[buffle]

The cords I refer to all have filter networks and use multiple shielding strategies. They're not just wire n' plugs as you seem to assume. The CDPs in my systems (a significant source of RF) are all located very close to the amplification. I also use a range of conditioners that are all passive in nature.

rw


So i'm guessing that these cables somehow convert ac to DC then - that would make life hard for the transformer! If not, you're still getting 50Hz or 60Hz noise through because that's what ac is (sort of). By using inductors and capacitors in the power supply ALL the noise and ripple is removed anyway, regardless of what cable you use. To prove this, get a good oscilloscope. Probe the voltage rails. If they are totally smooth, then you have no noise and therefore a cable and power conditioner worth billlions of dollars won't help, it's pure DC. If you find ripple, then do some work on your power supply. Place appropriate inductors in series between the power supply and amp, and large value capacitors (1 use 12 x 3300uF low impedence in my amp) in parrallel. Once you have achieved no ripple, you have the perfect supply (assuming adequate current) and no cable can make a perfectly straight line straighter.

P.S. A few years back there was an engineer who designs and sells drivers and 'high-end' speaker cables who invited some 'audiophiles' in to his lab to witness for themselves the difference between speaker cables (I think he did this more than once). During the tests he had technicians behind the speakers to change the cables between auditions. They showed the critics each cable before each trial, from zip cord to very expensive models. The critics were amazed at the difference the cables made. The trick was that the technicians would never actually swap the cables. I encourage you to read the article at http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm#spkr-leads

Also on the subject of speaker cables, has anyone taken the time lately to calculate the cross-over point of a 6dB filter with the inductance and capacitance of 3m of 12AWG zip cord? You might be suprised.

[Bernd]

...but there was a time when even the most rabid aftermarket afficionados qualified their claims with phrases like "...the effects are subtle at best..." and "...require highly resolving (read: expensive)systems..."

Now even that last vestige of plausible pretext is passe' ?

jimHJJ(...zut alors!...)


No problem Jim. I was astonished too. I heard what I heard and when my wife asked me if I had changed the study system as it sounded so much better I knew I wasn't imagening things.
Doubters always want scientific proof. I can't provide that, all I can do is share with fellow members my experiences. How can you proof emotional involvement, because I believe that's what happens. The music played through a system powered by clean mains will connect better with the listener. In the end we (or you) the purchaser have to make those buying decisions.
I left the Isotek Minisub in the study and bought the new Nova for my listening room.
So all is well and I would not be without mains products anymore.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[musicoverall]

Your loss my friend. I find experience a far better teacher than theory alone.

rw

Interestingly enough, I tried a few aftermarket power cords in my system and did not experience any differences of any kind. I do use a power conditioner which helped tremendously and apparently it cleaned up and RFI/EMI problem I had.

My experiences with power cords challenge the theory that we hear what we want to hear, though! I was ready to buy but no sale. I'm happy to hear, however, that you have noticed improvements in your system, something you would have denied yourself had you been only a theorist.

[E-Stat]

Interestingly enough, I tried a few aftermarket power cords in my system and did not experience any differences of any kind. I do use a power conditioner which helped tremendously and apparently it cleaned up and RFI/EMI problem I had.
The only other benefit with using a PC vs a conditioner in some cases is with a high current power amp where many folks report dynamic constriction. Apparently, you have already realized the benefits.


My experiences with power cords challenge the theory that we hear what we want to hear, though! I was ready to buy but no sale.
Same for me in a different setting. About a year ago, a friend of mine brought over his Kimber Palladians (2 of the 10 gauge variety for my amps and a 14 gauge one for my CDP) to compare with my JPS Labs. In this case, my bias was that the Kimbers would NOT provide any further improvement. I was sure that they would be no better than what I was using. I was genuinely surprised.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...in my previous post re: "plausible pretext", I was going to say: what's next, the old "...my___________(insert appropriate friend/relative here) heard the difference while getting in the car, at the shopping mall, on the way home..." routine, but I didn't want to get too snotty...can the tire analogy be far behind?

My point is, there are so many diverse and seemingly incompatible anecdotal supports for the whole PC/interconnect thingee, that surely someone, somewhere, who is currently a believer, has to look at it from a less emotional POV and see that 2+2 is adding up to anything but four.

Please don't take this as personal, because it isn't, but...where are the numbers, surely there are numbers that support the contentions made...oh, yeah we don't know what to measure for...after all how can you quantify God?

We have the exercise in semantics over last few feet vs. first few feet...then there's line conditioners...then specialized power cords...after all these insulating layers, I quite surprised no one has taken to advocate the POV that the listening room, or at least the electronics, be installed in a Faraday cage...but since some of the offensive RFI/EMI comes from the components themselves, that would necessitate the individual isolation of each and every component in their very own enclosure.

There are governing bodies like the FCC and such which set guidelines for how much cr@p these gizmos can spew and how far they can spew it. Then of course, since that hash comes from within, how do we isolate the power, processing and signal path from each other? I mean induced noise relying heavily on strength and proximity and all...The manufacturers do shield the internals and they do isolate the AC (and all the nasty stuff that goes with it) in the power section... what with the rectifiers and filters and such...

But audiopiles are constantly second-guessing the engineers..."...well, they couldn't do that because it would be too expensive..." Are we still dealing with rarefied, expensive, highly-resolving systems? Or are we gonna' slap an $1800 PC on the ol' Onkyo? It seems to me if you're already spending $5-10k for a pre-amp, another grand added to the MSRP for a whiz-bang, mfr. supplied PC is no biggie...Oh but wait, no, no, no the cognescenti must have their freedom of choice...Hmmm, yeah OK...Other than one hand washing the other, I really don't think the manufacturers really give the proverbial r@t's @$$...although I'm sure the pocket-protector set in the R&D get a good laff over it...

Another question, why such a range of prices? If you can do the bulk of the shielding job with a $99 PC, why the need for the $1800 model? Conversely, if the higher priced cord is the way to go, why bother with the bargain-basement? Oh yeah, well we didin't want to leave out the entry level buyers yada, yada, yada...Something smells and it ain't heat-shrink tubing...

When I do any serious listening, and while I can't really do anything about the fridge's compressor, I make sure the dimmer-controlled, dining room light is off...

jimHJJ(...that's pretty much the extent of my concern...)

[Bernd]

...in my previous post re: "plausible pretext", I was going to say: what's next, the old "...my___________(insert appropriate friend/relative here) heard the difference while getting in the car, at the shopping mall, on the way home..." routine, but I didn't want to get too snotty...can the tire analogy be far behind?

My point is, there are so many diverse and seemingly incompatible anecdotal supports for the whole PC/interconnect thingee, that surely someone, somewhere, who is currently a believer, has to look at it from a less emotional POV and see that 2+2 is adding up to anything but four.

Please don't take this as personal, because it isn't, but...where are the numbers, surely there are numbers that support the contentions made...oh, yeah we don't know what to measure for...after all how can you quantify God?

We have the exercise in semantics over last few feet vs. first few feet...then there's line conditioners...then specialized power cords...after all these insulating layers, I quite surprised no one has taken to advocate the POV that the listening room, or at least the electronics, be installed in a Faraday cage...but since some of the offensive RFI/EMI comes from the components themselves, that would necessitate the individual isolation of each and every component in their very own enclosure.

There are governing bodies like the FCC and such which set guidelines for how much cr@p these gizmos can spew and how far they can spew it. Then of course, since that hash comes from within, how do we isolate the power, processing and signal path from each other? I mean induced noise relying heavily on strength and proximity and all...The manufacturers do shield the internals and they do isolate the AC (and all the nasty stuff that goes with it) in the power section... what with the rectifiers and filters and such...

But audiopiles are constantly second-guessing the engineers..."...well, they couldn't do that because it would be too expensive..." Are we still dealing with rarefied, expensive, highly-resolving systems? Or are we gonna' slap an $1800 PC on the ol' Onkyo? It seems to me if you're already spending $5-10k for a pre-amp, another grand added to the MSRP for a whiz-bang, mfr. supplied PC is no biggie...Oh but wait, no, no, no the cognescenti must have their freedom of choice...Hmmm, yeah OK...Other than one hand washing the other, I really don't think the manufacturers really give the proverbial r@t's @$$...although I'm sure the pocket-protector set in the R&D get a good laff over it...

Another question, why such a range of prices? If you can do the bulk of the shielding job with a $99 PC, why the need for the $1800 model? Conversely, if the higher priced cord is the way to go, why bother with the bargain-basement? Oh yeah, well we didin't want to leave out the entry level buyers yada, yada, yada...Something smells and it ain't heat-shrink tubing...

When I do any serious listening, and while I can't really do anything about the fridge's compressor, I make sure the dimmer-controlled, dining room light is off...

jimHJJ(...that's pretty much the extent of my concern...)

Hey Jim,

I hear you and agree with a lot of what you say. And yes the often quoted Tyre analogy is pure BS. I only mentioned my wifes response as she very rarely coments on the quality of the sound.
All I can give you is that when I remove every mains product the system sounds less engaging. Still good but not at full potential and this is with a dedicated Mains spur and meter. I can demonstrate this over and over again. Can I meassure it - NO, but I can hear and feel it. That's good enough for me.That really is the only yard stick I use. Will I miss it once it's gone? Yes - it stays and cost me money; No - it goes.
I am a very sceptical SoB and if snakeoil or something else does not do what it should do it get's returned post haste. An item either works for me or it doesn't. End of story.
How is life your end anyway?

Peace

Bernd:16:

[Resident Loser]

...the optimum situation would probably be a dual-mono pre-amp feeding two mono-blocs, getting their AC from two dedicated circuits each fed by service from two different segments of the power grid...at least line-induced crosstalk might be eliminated...

Ahhh! spring...The sun is early and high in the sky, the birds are singing their songs of love...rebirth is nigh!...the buds are showing on my Japanese maple, the neighbor's bulbs are sending up shoots...and the friggin' windows on the rolling boom-boxes are lowered and the rugrats are beginning to stir...they're all crawling out...can't wait for fall. Gotcha'...heh-heh...

Can't complain I suppose...after all, who would listen?

Got the chance to listen to the first disc of the Bach partitas, as performed by Paul Galbraith, I had previously mentioned...I like it...but I also like Bach generally and, being a guitarist, I also like solo guitar...this eight-string variation presents a much wider range...and I always think some of these players have four arms, given the complexity of some of the pieces with their counterpoint melodies, it's almost like a duet...

Eventually I'll get the chance to sample the second disc...My listening thus far has been via my old Sennheiser 414s and the el cheapo supremo GPX portable CDP ($7US after rebate) as I was doing some other things...eventually, eventually...I'll try to give it a better venue...

The liner notes mention his luthier and the other fellow who constructed the auxilliary resonance box...and...and...the fact that the recording studio uses Monster cables...That's the second one I've seen touting specific cables...I think the first was on LAGQs "Guitar Heroes"...

jimHJJ(...I always try to find a way keep my posts on topic...yeah, right!...)

[jneutron]

So i'm guessing that these cables somehow convert ac to DC then - that would make life hard for the transformer! If not, you're still getting 50Hz or 60Hz noise through because that's what ac is (sort of). By using inductors and capacitors in the power supply ALL the noise and ripple is removed anyway, regardless of what cable you use. To prove this, get a good oscilloscope. Probe the voltage rails. If they are totally smooth, then you have no noise and therefore a cable and power conditioner worth billlions of dollars won't help, it's pure DC. If you find ripple, then do some work on your power supply. Place appropriate inductors in series between the power supply and amp, and large value capacitors (1 use 12 x 3300uF low impedence in my amp) in parrallel. Once you have achieved no ripple, you have the perfect supply (assuming adequate current) and no cable can make a perfectly straight line straighter..
What node point do you recommend as the ground reference? The center of the cap bank, the input ground, the output ground, or, the outlet ground?


Also on the subject of speaker cables, has anyone taken the time lately to calculate the cross-over point of a 6dB filter with the inductance and capacitance of 3m of 12AWG zip cord? You might be suprised.
I was unaware that the L and C of a speaker wire formed a 6dB filter..
Didn't you mean to say....with a load at the other end, one which determines the 3dB breakpoint? Without a load, the cable will assume a characteristic impedance way out to the tens of mhz, with dielectric losses starting in that regime..btw, both L and C are lagging mechanisms.

Perhaps you should calculate the group delay of a lowpass filter...single pole, try using break frequencies of 25khz, 50Khz, 100Khz, and 200Khz..you will find something very interesting..

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

...the optimum situation would probably be a dual-mono pre-amp feeding two mono-blocs, getting their AC from two dedicated circuits each fed by service from two different segments of the power grid...at least line-induced crosstalk might be eliminated...
jimHJJ(...I always try to find a way keep my posts on topic...yeah, right!...)

No, No, No, No. Whattayouze...NUTS???

You set sumptin reediculouse as dat up, and youseis gonna fry.

That's why da good lord made cloud to cloud strikes,,,to utterly destroy any piece of equipment which is connected to a sufficiently large loop of conductive material..

Segments of a power grid indeed...Yes, a Darwin award waits for those who try this..

And Faraday would greet you at the holy gate...to tell you he told you so..


Cheers, John

Hey dude, how's it shakin?

[Resident Loser]

No, No, No, No. Whattayouze...NUTS???

You set sumptin reediculouse as dat up, and youseis gonna fry.

That's why da good lord made cloud to cloud strikes,,,to utterly destroy any piece of equipment which is connected to a sufficiently large loop of conductive material..

Segments of a power grid indeed...Yes, a Darwin award waits for those who try this..

And Faraday would greet you at the holy gate...to tell you he told you so..


Cheers, John

Hey dude, how's it shakin?

...I mean if you lived on the border and your right channel was powered by substation 'A' and the left one (I got yer left one) by substation 'B' and there was no difference in potential between the neutrals and you used a common local ground and...and...and...aw, hooey...screw the crosstalk!

Figured you would show up eventually...tings is good...how goes the floor and such?

Spring is here and it's time to commune with nature...and deck sealer...and brick pointing...and roof repair...and window work...and plastering...and...cheez I can't wait for fall and some mindless leaf-bagging...

jimHJJ(...'tis a long journey...)

[jneutron]

...I mean if you lived on the border and your right channel was powered by substation 'A' and the left one (I got yer left one) by substation 'B' and there was no difference in potential between the neutrals and you used a common local ground and...and...and...aw, hooey...screw the crosstalk!

Figured you would show up eventually...tings is good...how goes the floor and such?

Spring is here and it's time to commune with nature
jimHJJ(...'tis a long journey...)

Floor's done..18 inch porclean tiles, mint...

Cabinets in, all appliances (with my fav, a 52 bottle wine chiller), granite comes today.

Nother coupla weeks, I'll actually be able to start fixin me up a workshop. Just bought me a behringer fbq1502, a 1RU baby eq with a sub out. Unbelievable, 79 buckaroonies...I can't even buy a 1RU blank rack box from sescom for that...nevermind the guts.

Gonna rebuild the ol' dual cd/mixer box to include this baby eq, so I can eliminate the 2RU unit I built in '78 (oh man). It was difficult building it back then, what with all the veloceraptors and such chasin me..

Then those 128 4 inch units is just screamin to be used..

Course, there is this widdle issue of the back yard...seeins as there ain't no backyard anymore..nuttin but dirt..I gots me a shuvel wit me name on it..brick, slate, barbee-que, landscapin ties, drainage tubers..you know da drill..

Boy, I can't wait to use my superconducting dual-coaxial/quadaxial low B-dot, matched impedance, helium filled, cross/recrossed/crossdressed/wonderlitzefied speaker cable on those speeekers that look like rocks next to the azealia bush..the liquid helium spot market's in a slump right now, so deals can be made!!! Act now, supplies are limited..

Cheers, John

[musicoverall]

The only other benefit with using a PC vs a conditioner in some cases is with a high current power amp where many folks report dynamic constriction. Apparently, you have already realized the benefits.


Same for me in a different setting. About a year ago, a friend of mine brought over his Kimber Palladians (2 of the 10 gauge variety for my amps and a 14 gauge one for my CDP) to compare with my JPS Labs. In this case, my bias was that the Kimbers would NOT provide any further improvement. I was sure that they would be no better than what I was using. I was genuinely surprised.

rw

The Cardas wire I use now was one I secretly hoped wouldn't be "The One". It sounds great in my system but it sure isn't as nice looking as, say, the Audioquest Mont Blanc or a few others I tried. So much for bias dictating what we hear!

[buffle]

What node point do you recommend as the ground reference? The center of the cap bank, the input ground, the output ground, or, the outlet ground?


I was unaware that the L and C of a speaker wire formed a 6dB filter..
Didn't you mean to say....with a load at the other end, one which determines the 3dB breakpoint? Without a load, the cable will assume a characteristic impedance way out to the tens of mhz, with dielectric losses starting in that regime..btw, both L and C are lagging mechanisms.

Perhaps you should calculate the group delay of a lowpass filter...single pole, try using break frequencies of 25khz, 50Khz, 100Khz, and 200Khz..you will find something very interesting..

Cheers, John


What I wrote was a simplified statement. I am a QUALIFIED electronic engineer with many years experience in the audio field. I didn't want to start quoting a whole lot of formulae and mathmatical proofs on a forum. Obviously the cross-over point (-3dB of course) is affected by the load.

Assuming the reactive load would be easily handled by the amp, the effect of the capacitance of the cable would be similar to placing a capacitor of equal value in parallel to the speaker. If you determine the cross-over point, you can see what freqs would be affected. The inductance would be series.

Group delay should also be insignificant for any decent cable (including decent zip cord over, say, 3m) because the cross-over points are so far above the audible range.

Once again, these comments are simplified. I certainly welcome further input.

To put in perspective the comments about measurable vs audible differences and unexplicable improvements, lets clarify something. Electron flow. Voltage is the difference in charge between two points. Current is how much of that charge is actually being allowed to flow between those points - the electron flow. Maybe some of these cables are teaching the electrons quick-step tai-chi or jazz balet during their mystical journey through the conductor. (and yes, I know there are differences in inductance, impedence, capacitance but these CAN be measured and assesed)

[jneutron]

What I wrote was a simplified statement.
Agreed.

I am a QUALIFIED electronic engineer with many years experience in the audio field.
I, however, am licensed by the state of new york to operate a 157 kilowatt potential to kinetic energy conversion unit.....anywhere within the continent of North America..(as long as I stay between the lines and obey the signs and rules.

Why do you feel the need to tell me you are qualified for anything? Did I say you weren't??

I didn't want to start quoting a whole lot of formulae and mathmatical proofs on a forum.
Why not?? Granted, it is indeed difficult to post the equations as this forum doesn't support the extended ISO-8859 character set. But hey, don't be shy..at least we can get superscripts and subscripts. If you really really feel the desperate urge to post equations, just write them down and jpeg em..

Obviously the cross-over point (-3dB of course) is affected by the load. ..you didn't mention a load before. Course, that load varys wildly from about an ohm to 20-30. And your reference to a 6dB filter...since you now talk of two reactive elements, I can assume you are speaking about a second order network of 12dB/octave vs a 6dB/octave first order? For typical speaker cables which are wildly off the load impedance, the cap is essentially not involved, so that would be a L-R first order, as I think you meant.


If you determine the cross-over point, you can see what freqs would be affected. The inductance would be series.
Well, yes. And??


Group delay should also be insignificant for any decent cable (including decent zip cord over, say, 3m) because the cross-over points are so far above the audible range.
Hmmm..You obviously didn't consider what I said. I said calculate the group delay. Your response was "should also be insignificant"?

What do you consider as insignificant? Are you aware of the ITD levels which humans use for localization of a source in space? Or the IID?

For a cable impedance which doesn't match the load Z, as zip cord certainly does not, the inductive energy storage dominates. Not only does it introduce a group delay which affects differential localization, but attempts to minimize the line storage via geometry or dielectric change will force the cable to take on a distributed LC, which no longer is a simple second order line, further changing the group delay.

Do yourself a favor. examine the group delay of a first order low pass..

Take the phase response, which is -tan<SUP>-1</SUP>omega, (in degrees) and multiply it by the period of omega in microseconds per degree.. You will find it asymptotically approaches a non zero value..

Now, model a speaker run by breaking it into smaller and smaller elements..then tell us what the final group delay is..don't worry, it will asymptotically approach a final value if you wrote the code correctly.


To put in perspective the comments about measurable vs audible differences and unexplicable improvements, lets clarify something. Electron flow. Voltage is the difference in charge between two points.
Hmm...As I recall, voltage was the difference in potential between two points. If two points have the same capacitance to an arbitrary reference node, then voltage will indeed be related to the charge..(it is indeed amazing what someone with a drivers license can know..)


Current is how much of that charge is actually being allowed to flow between those points - the electron flow. Maybe some of these cables are teaching the electrons quick-step tai-chi or jazz balet during their mystical journey through the conductor. (and yes, I know there are differences in inductance, impedence, capacitance but these CAN be measured and assesed)
The fundamentals are far more important. To assess the impact a transmission media has on the perceived images sought after via two source reconstruction, one first needs to understand what parameters are important towards that reconstruction.

Cheers, John

[buffle]

Agreed.

I, however, am licensed by the state of new york to operate a 157 kilowatt potential to kinetic energy conversion unit.....anywhere within the continent of North America..(as long as I stay between the lines and obey the signs and rules.

Why do you feel the need to tell me you are qualified for anything? Did I say you weren't??

Why not?? Granted, it is indeed difficult to post the equations as this forum doesn't support the extended ISO-8859 character set. But hey, don't be shy..at least we can get superscripts and subscripts. If you really really feel the desperate urge to post equations, just write them down and jpeg em..
..you didn't mention a load before. Course, that load varys wildly from about an ohm to 20-30. And your reference to a 6dB filter...since you now talk of two reactive elements, I can assume you are speaking about a second order network of 12dB/octave vs a 6dB/octave first order? For typical speaker cables which are wildly off the load impedance, the cap is essentially not involved, so that would be a L-R first order, as I think you meant.


Well, yes. And??


Hmmm..You obviously didn't consider what I said. I said calculate the group delay. Your response was "should also be insignificant"?

What do you consider as insignificant? Are you aware of the ITD levels which humans use for localization of a source in space? Or the IID?

For a cable impedance which doesn't match the load Z, as zip cord certainly does not, the inductive energy storage dominates. Not only does it introduce a group delay which affects differential localization, but attempts to minimize the line storage via geometry or dielectric change will force the cable to take on a distributed LC, which no longer is a simple second order line, further changing the group delay.

Do yourself a favor. examine the group delay of a first order low pass..

Take the phase response, which is -tan<SUP>-1</SUP>omega, (in degrees) and multiply it by the period of omega in microseconds per degree.. You will find it asymptotically approaches a non zero value..

Now, model a speaker run by breaking it into smaller and smaller elements..then tell us what the final group delay is..don't worry, it will asymptotically approach a final value if you wrote the code correctly.


Hmm...As I recall, voltage was the difference in potential between two points. If two points have the same capacitance to an arbitrary reference node, then voltage will indeed be related to the charge..(it is indeed amazing what someone with a drivers license can know..)


The fundamentals are far more important. To assess the impact a transmission media has on the perceived images sought after via two source reconstruction, one first needs to understand what parameters are important towards that reconstruction.

Cheers, John

Settle down, mate!

I cited my credentials because as a designer of audio and RF circuitry, I feel that I should be in a position to also recomend a suitable cable with which to couple it.

I'm glad that new york lets you run a motor. You might want to reexamine your point on voltage. The potential difference between two points IS the difference in electron charge between two points, or nodes. As you agreed, the cable WOULD act as a first order. Designing audio and RF filters is part of my living, so you're not going to impress me. Do you really want a pissing competition or is this just a hobby forum?

The reason I haven't gone into detail is because it's just a hobby forum, it isn't that important. I, unlike you, feel no need to prove myself. If you genuinly want to discuss signal transfer and filter characteristics then fly to Western Australia and study with me. You are right about the affect of group delay on possibly perseptive freqs, but are recording studios employing the hardware to accurately record this?

Have you read the comments on speaker cables from one of the most respected people in the business (GDS). After all, his comments are available on this site. Do you also feel more qualified than him on the subject?

[jneutron]

Settle down, mate!
I'm glad that new york lets you run a motor.
I am quite settled down, thank you..
Hey, they don't know how I drive...he he.

You might want to reexamine your point on voltage. The potential difference between two points IS the difference in electron charge.

I have one capacitor here, 10 uf. Charged to 100 volts.

I have another one, 1 farad, charged to 100 volts..

They have different charges, but yet they have the same voltage. When both are referred to ground, both have the same potential, but yet different charge.

That is inconsistent with your statement..


As you agreed, the cable WOULD act as first order.
Designing filters is part of my living, so your not going to impress me buddy!
It is not a matter of impressing anyone. In point of fact, it was you who stated:

"I am a QUALIFIED electronic engineer with many years experience in the audio field
But yet, you mixed up charge and potential..

I'm glad you design filters..so, what is the group delay for an L-R lowpass with an 8 ohm load, 3dB down at 100Khz?

And, more importantly, can you explain the physics behind WHY that group delay asymptotically approaches a non zero number as frequency drops toward DC? You know, the 1/2 LI<SUP>2</SUP> vs 1/2 CV<SUP>2</SUP> thingy?

Do you know what ITD and IID are? And, what the differential sensitivities for humans to those parameters are?

You being a "qualified" engineer does not impress me..nor does your designing filters for a living..you would be suprised to learn what some people who peruse these forums do for a living..and the level of physics and EE of some of them.

I'd be more impressed with reasonable dialogue, not struttin your degree about.

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

Have you read the comments on speaker cables from one of the most respected people in the business (GDS). After all, his comments are available on this site.
Would you be so kind as to reference those comments? User GDS who registered in 2002 has never posted.

rw

[buffle]

Would you be so kind as to reference those comments? User GDS who registered in 2002 has never posted.

rw

Hi Estat!

The article was posted by forum member Chris under 'cable budget guide'. It is and exerpt from Gene's article at audioholics.com. I had to google 'snake oil audioreview' to find it again.

Thanks,
Buffle

[buffle]

I am quite settled down, thank you..
Hey, they don't know how I drive...he he.


I have one capacitor here, 10 uf. Charged to 100 volts.

I have another one, 1 farad, charged to 100 volts..

They have different charges, but yet they have the same voltage. When both are referred to ground, both have the same potential, but yet different charge.

That is inconsistent with your statement..


It is not a matter of impressing anyone. In point of fact, it was you who stated:

But yet, you mixed up charge and potential..

I'm glad you design filters..so, what is the group delay for an L-R lowpass with an 8 ohm load, 3dB down at 100Khz?

And, more importantly, can you explain the physics behind WHY that group delay asymptotically approaches a non zero number as frequency drops toward DC? You know, the 1/2 LI<SUP>2</SUP> vs 1/2 CV<SUP>2</SUP> thingy?

Do you know what ITD and IID are? And, what the differential sensitivities for humans to those parameters are?

You being a "qualified" engineer does not impress me..nor does your designing filters for a living..you would be suprised to learn what some people who peruse these forums do for a living..and the level of physics and EE of some of them.

I'd be more impressed with reasonable dialogue, not struttin your degree about.

Cheers, John


Yeah, sorry John, you are right about the voltage bit! I should have been more accurate in my statement.

There does seem to be a strong opinion on the topic of speaker cables, and that's enough for me to try a few more cables. If I do hear a difference then I certainly won't be shy in admitting I was wrong. If they improve my system, then I'll be thankfull. I just seriously doubt they will....

[E-Stat]

I have read a number of his articles. His CV states that:

Gene is passionate about educating the masses of the importance of proper system set-up, room acoustics and avoidance of exotic cables which can do more harm than good.

I guess I'm a lost cause to the third goal. More harm than good? :confused5:

rw

[JohnMichael]

Here we go again. Some audiophiles can not hear any difference/benefits of different cables be they speaker, power or interconnect cables. Some of us truly can. If you can not then don't buy better cables use what comes in the box. For those of us that do we will change and try different cables until we have the best sound/synergy we can find. I can not convince you their is an improvement and you can not tell me I do not hear what I hear.:15:

[ruadmaa]

Here we go again. Some audiophiles can not hear any difference/benefits of different cables be they speaker, power or interconnect cables. Some of us truly can. If you can not then don't buy better cables use what comes in the box. For those of us that do we will change and try different cables until we have the best sound/synergy we can find. I can not convince you their is an improvement and you can not tell me I do not hear what I hear.:15:

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

[JohnMichael]

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I needed to respond to your comments. I hope new people will read all responses and opinions. First I would like to preface by saying my experiences are with my two channel system and I listen in the nearfield. I would not say my cables are esoteric or very expensive but I have a mixture of solid core and stranded cables and they do change the sound of my system in small degrees. I am of course speaking of power, speaker and interconnect cables.

You advocate tone controls or an equalizer instead of buying a cable that might warm or brighten a system. Without getting into the electrical characteristics of wires and how they can interact differently with different components I think the proper selection of cable can greatly improve the sound of a system. One of the things I have to have in my system is wire. Wire for power, from source to integrated amp and amp to speakers. I do not need or want tone controls or an eq. Since I have to have cables I choose the ones that compliment my system. Tone controls and eq's can add a whole set of problems themselves and eq's require two pair of interconnects to a preamp or int amp or one extra pair if run between the pre and power. It seems like the judicious use of cables can minimize the need for an eq and allow tone controls to be bypassed. I find that approach to provide better sound and minimize the number and expense of cables and the expense of an eq. I am not talking mega dollar cables either but cables no more than $200 a pair by reputable manufacturers.

[E-Stat]

Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices.
I don't know any folks who chose their cables for purposes of equalization. FWIW, I use a third octave EQ on the powered subs in my HT system.


A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit.
That's where the real debate exists. The direct experience of many suggests otherwise. Have you worked out JNeutron's math? I find the benefits lie with greater resolving power and improved spatial cues found in musical recordings.


An esoteric cable can only filter, not add.
Well stated! That is an area where improvements are made in the real world via shielding from detail robbing RFI and other noise. Allow only the music to pass. Thirty years ago, there were many engineers who scoffed at the notion of an amplifier's power transformer having any audible effect on the sound. Or to products like the VPI Brick which trapped the EMF. Toroids are now the norm.


It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I would hope that anyone not blindly accept any viewpoints made here. I learned by exposure to new components and experimentation and would recommend that course of action to those interested.

rw

[Bernd]

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I have just one question for you.

Why do you want to alter the tone from the recording you bought?

My amp has a Volume knob that's it. And believe me it sounds glorious and free from interference by controls.

The better cables,in my experience, let you hear more of the signal.

Peace

Bernd:6:

[ruadmaa]

I have just one question for you.

Why do you want to alter the tone from the recording you bought?

My amp has a Volume knob that's it. And believe me it sounds glorious and free from interference by controls.

The better cables,in my experience, let you hear more of the signal.

Peace

Bernd:6:

First off, I prefer to use a bit more treble as I enjoy a bright sounding system. Simply a personal preference. As to you hearing more of the signal by using better cables???? A copper wire (standard zip cord) transmits all the signal that there is to convey, (you may consider that a verity if you wish).

[Bernd]

First off, I prefer to use a bit more treble as I enjoy a bright sounding system. Simply a personal preference. As to you hearing more of the signal by using better cables???? A copper wire (standard zip cord) transmits all the signal that there is to convey, (you may consider that a verity if you wish).

Yeah I understand, but why not then buy bright sounding electronics or speakers?

I guess we're both coming from a different point of view. I always, ever since I started in this crazy hobby of ours, have aproached it the following way.
I am the listener and am reponsible for the room and the clean mains. They are the musicians, recording engineers, etc and the hardware manufacturers who release their product which I choose to buy.
So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
Free choice and no wrong or right.

Enjoy

Bernd

[ruadmaa]

Yeah I understand, but why not then buy bright sounding electronics or speakers?

I guess we're both coming from a different point of view. I always, ever since I started in this crazy hobby of ours, have aproached it the following way.
I am the listener and am reponsible for the room and the clean mains. They are the musicians, recording engineers, etc and the hardware manufacturers who release their product which I choose to buy.
So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
Free choice and no wrong or right.

Enjoy

Bernd

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

[JohnMichael]

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

Out of curiosity what equipment does your system contain. You only list one product with which I am not familiar.

[Bernd]

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

You're certainly right that the sound in my home will be different from the recording studio, I have witnessed this process a couple of times. But why mess even more with it? When I record some of my basic Guitar playing, (just with one mic.) onto a tape recorder, that sounds different. The sound I like determined the equipment I bought. It is after all for my enjoyment but I like to appreciate what the professionals have done. I don't want to mess with that. I had this conversation before here and there is no point going over old ground again. I am happy with my choice and I hope sincerly you are too.
Each to their own.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[jneutron]

Yeah, sorry John, you are right about the voltage bit! I should have been more accurate in my statement.
No problem. If it were an easy topic, it would be no fun.

There does seem to be a strong opinion on the topic of speaker cables, and that's enough for me to try a few more cables. If I do hear a difference then I certainly won't be shy in admitting I was wrong. If they improve my system, then I'll be thankfull. I just seriously doubt they will....

There are three major applications of music. The first is the big venue, pro stuff. Specific criteria are required for these apps. I run an occasional gig in an auditorium, outdoor, dance party, wedding, and use #12awg with neutriks..no big deal.

The second is typical listening. Things like speakers in the kitchens, outdoor speakers, background, simple listening, multiple people in the room, nobody at the sweet spot...Ones where we would hear distortion, wild response swings, that kind of thing, but never is there focus on imaging of soundstage.

The third is what I call atypical listening. Sweet spot, dedicated room, lots of concentration. For this app, attention to phase response, amplitude response, and interchannel parameters is required. Not only does the fidelity need to be there, but the channel to channel correlation must be there. Imaging a soundstage requires control of Interaural Temporal Delay (ITD) as well as Interaural Intensity Difference (IID).

Unfortunately (or fortunately) we humans are sensitive to ITD shifts as low as 2 to 5 uSec, and IID shifts down to the .5dB (and possibly down to .05dB), although a regimented and scientifically accurate measurement of that capability has yet to be done correctly.

You, as one who has designed filters, will understand the issues of component tolerances and pot tracking as they apply to two channel phase and amplitude tracking. For the most part, tone controls are great for type two listening, but can mess up the imaging parameters for type three. For my PA apps, I've used an 11 band eq, and can't wait to try that little baby eq.

Speaker cables can have lumped element parameters sufficient enough to affect ITD and IID for type three listening. But for one or two, are silly to consider.

Gene (GDS) points out the folly of esoteric cable stuff (even the scientifically correct) for the majority of apps, and tries to consistently point out the erroneous technical "stuff" out there. For the majority of the people out there, zip is indeed enough..

But from my research, it would appear that it can be insufficient for some applications.

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

Somehow, I missed this. I am guessing that it was added within an edit?


If you genuinly want to discuss signal transfer and filter characteristics then fly to Western Australia and study with me. You are right about the affect of group delay on possibly perseptive freqs, but are recording studios employing the hardware to accurately record this?
The internet and e-mail tends to make travel far less necessary nowadays. It is rather easy nowadays to collaborate, jpegs are so easy to send, and video conferences help sometimes. It is extremely useful when the customer is a consortium of researchers, with some in California, Japan, Brazil, Geneva, and Boston. Visits are only necessary when they are interested in a face to face, or to see how we build the stuff.

As for recording studios...they do not have the ability to apply the necessary ITD or IID to plant an image in the desired location in space for two channel reproduction. The best they can hope for is to alter IID (pan pot) far enough that we humans perceive the image lateral shift. But this is modification of stimulus that does not exist in nature.


Have you read the comments on speaker cables from one of the most respected people in the business (GDS). After all, his comments are available on this site.
Yes, I've read most of his stuff. A few of them I read prior to them being "published", as I have been asked on occasion to proof them, mainly for technical accuracy. On occasion, he will include a quote or two of mine.


Do you also feel more qualified than him on the subject?
For items which he quotes me or asks me to review for technical accuracy, yes.

For the subject of localization and differential localization, and e/m field theory and ramifications, yes again.

For articles where I am unfamiliar with the topic content, no...I am not more qualified. In fact, I have read several of them for things like video cable standards and home theatre stuff. It is fun learning, and it is a good resource.

Please be careful on edits. Others may not re-read the post once they have responded, and it can be confusing. I saw your reference to Gene in another post, but did not remember having seen it the first time..perhaps it was just me..:confused:

Cheers, John

[hermanv]

Hoo Boy, more cable wars, love-em.

From having slung my share of mud, I'd say about 95% of all forum readers have firmly made up their mind on this issue. Some agree cables make a difference some do not. Maybe 5% could be convinced to consider the arguments, all others are firmly in one camp or the other.

I am firmly in the believe camp, I too am an electronic engineer, I've done the math but my ears commited treason by not agreeing with my teachings. The best I can say as an engineer is that a CD has a dynamic range of almost 100 dB, this allows one to record small signals that are almost 100,000 smaller than the biggest signal. This is equal to about 0.001%, note that most electronic test equipment is not nearly this good.

After a great deal of experimentation my friend and I learned much of what it takes to make interconnect cables as good as the best we could afford (somewhere around $750). Once we knew the "trick" we also knew how to measure for the effect. But, if you don't know why a given cable makes a difference then you can't very well measure for it. In our case we found that we agreed with many posts on the internet. For interconnect cables the physical quality that made one cable sound clearer or cleaner than another exactly followed the dielectric constant and was presumed to be dielectric absorbtion, the lower the better. We ended up making our own cables where the dielectric was mostly air.

I guess I wish all of the corespondents would stop talking in terms of absolutes. The difference between two cables is not staggering, but once you've spent up to or over $10,000 for your system, getting that last little bit of clarity with a better cable is not unreasonable.

As to the snake oil camp, I have pointed out that a large number of magic devices have not stood the marketplace test. Green markers, CD dampning rings, CD demagnatizers and many others have died in the marketplace. It would seem they didn't work or the improvement if any wasn't worth the cost or the effort. Cables continue to sell well and the well established brands continue to offer new models and more and more suppliers seem to entering this market. Circumstantial evidence that this stuff works.

Why not just listen, it is a hobby, invest some time. Most stores will lend you cables. If nothing happens you can post to future forums with confidence. And if it does sound different, then you get to figure out if its better or worse different. Whee. Warning, the more I did this, the better I got at hearing small changes, hide your wallet.

[stevenv]

Hi There,

I am new here. But I read you post and here is my view on this matter.

I have just moved house. Before I move I can plug my AC cable directly from a power point to my tube amp. It works fine. But now I have to plug my amp to an extension board and the bass is gone.. gone ,.... you know what I mean?

Yesterday I just into our local Jaycar store and grape some of those in wall main power cable (with white jacket)... those cheaply $2 meter cable with big copper strain instead of many smaller strain. They are not flexible at all sine they are suppose to be wire up your shouse, but they have a good cross section of solid copper and I just build a power cable cost less than $15 (with plugs) Now I am a happy man... :)

I don't think spending millions on a AC cable is wise, but building a solid copper AC cable next to nothing will really work :) try it your self.

[Fergymunster]

I was once sceptical of power cords.My friend who's schooled in electronics simply said that any power cord is a foolish investment.However,since the year 2000 these power cords have been around.I asked myself why are power cords being back ordered on web sites going in the excess of one thousand dollors.With that said I recently purchused the CA azur 640c V1 and begain to wonder about power cords as an option.I read that others had change the PC on this particular unit.A store less than one mile from had AQ products in their store.Out of curiuosity I went to the store and the salesman said I could try the AQ NRG-2 power cord for 30 days and if I wasn't satisfied I could take it back with no questions asked.He also said you might need to burn it in for about 72 hours.Knowing a had 30 days I burned the cable on my computer for about 80 hours just to make sure.I then hooked it up to the CD player and really didn't notice much of a difference.I decided to leave it on for a couple of days and then go from there.I started to notice some improvents but not enough to justify the $175 price tag.My next step was leaning towards power conditioners so I got the Monster SW200 surge protector with stage 1 clean power curcuitry.Pluged the PC into that and notice some more improvement.Still not satisfied with this combination I by impulse took the black RF ferrite noise stopper of of the cord and BINGO the sound quality opened up.I was now getting a unique sound stage that finally became apparent to me and the differnce over the stock cord was substantial.Tighter bass,the plick of the acoustic guitar.In short it transformed the whole sound stage to a higher level.Yes,a night and day difference.It took me about two weeks before this dawned on me.I've owned the cable now about a month and a half and it has mellowed into my system nicely..

[JohnMichael]

I was once sceptical of power cords.My friend who's schooled in electronics simply said that any power cord is a foolish investment.However,since the year 2000 these power cords have been around.I asked myself why are power cords being back ordered on web sites going in the excess of one thousand dollors.With that said I recently purchused the CA azur 640c V1 and begain to wonder about power cords as an option.I read that others had change the PC on this particular unit.A store less than one mile from had AQ products in their store.Out of curiuosity I went to the store and the salesman said I could try the AQ NRG-2 power cord for 30 days and if I wasn't satisfied I could take it back with no questions asked.He also said you might need to burn it in for about 72 hours.Knowing a had 30 days I burned the cable on my computer for about 80 hours just to make sure.I then hooked it up to the CD player and really didn't notice much of a difference.I decided to leave it on for a couple of days and then go from there.I started to notice some improvents but not enough to justify the $175 price tag.My next step was leaning towards power conditioners so I got the Monster SW200 surge protector with stage 1 clean power curcuitry.Pluged the PC into that and notice some more improvement.Still not satisfied with this combination I by impulse took the black RF ferrite noise stopper of of the cord and BINGO the sound quality opened up.I was now getting a unique sound stage that finally became apparent to me and the differnce over the stock cord was substantial.Tighter bass,the plick of the acoustic guitar.In short it transformed the whole sound stage to a higher level.Yes,a night and day difference.It took me about two weeks before this dawned on me.I've owned the cable now about a month and a half and it has mellowed into my system nicely..


You make a good point about cables and ac cables in particular. It takes some time to recognize the change and if it is an improvement. When I change cables I might be pleased with the initial improvement but if it is not a positive change I find myself enjoying the music less. If I find I am not looking forward to playing my stereo I know I have made the wrong cable choice. This usually happens in two weeks time. Something that would not be obvious in an AB comparison.

[superpanavision70mm]

if person A does not notice a difference with using enhanced power cords and person B does...what can one conclude? Well, just because one person wants to say that there is no difference perhaps other factors are involved. Maybe you are not listening to the same attributes or maybe your system does not enable a increase in quality. a better power cable is not going to make a lick of difference in an already cheap-o setup. However, the better the equipment the more noticeable little tweaks become.

[musicman1999]

I believe 70mm has a good point and one that applies to many of the battles that go on here about cables and amps and cd players.There is no point in puting $500.00 worth of speaker wire on a $200.00 htib.Of course they will not hear a difference.Everything is relative to how revealing your system is.

bill

[jneutron]

You guys crack me up...

Line cords making a difference, what a joke..



Now for a healthy dose of reality..

As long as youze guys buy the crapola designed audio equipment that is on the market, your gonna have this problem.

Your line cords spray the supply haversines all over creation in the form of helically formed dipole magnetic fields, your amplifiers do NOTHING (I'll repeat)...NOTHING at all to prevent this, nor the internal chassis fields resulting from the line haversines, the secondary haversines, the secondary high slew rate audio currents (a result of forcing a low impedance output), the wall outlets FORCE the coupling geometry between the magnetic dipole and the ground loop (where do you think your amplifier is deriving it's input reference from????.

And all along, not a damn thing is being done to TEST your amplifiers to ground current sensitivity..

Where in hell do you think ground loop hum comes from????

Shielding the PC doesn't do a thing. Ferrites change the coupling constants, twist pitch of the PC affects it, PC insulation thickness affects it, ground loop resistance affects is, IC shield resistance affects it...connector resistance affects it..

In other words, while all you guys argue back and forth about cables do this, cables don't do that, yada yada..nobody's addressing the real issue...

Your systems are designed like crap.

Sorry..there's no other way to put it.

I've explained the relationships, drawn pictures, taken pictures...

Years now..and yet, you still have the problems..

No standards...how does one improve the technology without standards of test???

Cheers, John.

PS...cooooll..I actually ranted...

[Resident Loser]

You guys crack me up...

Line cords making a difference, what a joke..

Now for a healthy dose of reality..

Cheers, John.

PS...cooooll..I actually ranted...

...but have you listened?...I mean really listened?...

I was remarking to myself earlier today that joining in the fray would be a fool's errand, since the minds and ears are made up and the same ol', same ol' is just getting tedious...

Reality...we ain't got no reality...we are audiophiles and we have soundstage...we don't need no stinkin' reality...

It's folks like you what cause unrest...

jimHJJ(...keep up the good work...)

[daviethek]

if person A does not notice a difference with using enhanced power cords and person B does...what can one conclude? Well, just because one person wants to say that there is no difference perhaps other factors are involved. Maybe you are not listening to the same attributes or maybe your system does not enable a increase in quality. a better power cable is not going to make a lick of difference in an already cheap-o setup. However, the better the equipment the more noticeable little tweaks become.

I believe this to be true. The only reason I experiment with cables and mains is because, for better or worse, my system allows me to appreciate the differences. Truthfully, the jury's out on whether this is a blessing or a curse, as i have found myself completely dissatisfied with most inexpensive cable products. I ain't lyin

[Fergymunster]

Put a CD in my CA azur 640c and was immersed in something on the internet when all of a sudden I was knocked out of my computer chair by a shock comming from my headphones.I turned around and my power cord was on fire and smoke was billowing out of my CDP.I ran to the window and opened it up to let the smoke out when I noticed it was a beautiful spring time day.Has anybody else experienced this?

[jneutron]

Put a CD in my CA azur 640c and was immersed in something on the internet when all of a sudden I was knocked out of my computer chair by a shock comming from my headphones.I turned around and my power cord was on fire and smoke was billowing out of my CDP.I ran to the window and opened it up to let the smoke out when I noticed it was a beautiful spring time day.Has anybody else experienced this?

Yes, I have noticed beautiful spring days before..they are nice, aren't they?.








Oh, you mean that fire?

Was the line cord a stock one?

Is your outlet standard, or have you modified anything.

Have you modified the CDP?

Have you (foolishly) played around with the AC distribution in your house?

Did anything else go in the house?

Is your safety ground adequate at the water pipe?

Is your neutral line at the power feed into your house still connected?

Is it a two wire cord, or a 3.

Did you have any cheater plugs there?

What kind of heating system do you have...forced air, radiant, baseboard.

Any hungry cats?

Are the clocks or vcr/dvd or microwave blinking 12:00

Did you add any grounding schemes to your house?

Cheers, John

[Fergymunster]

Your very knowlegeabe.Have a nice day

[pctower]

You guys crack me up...

Line cords making a difference, what a joke..



Now for a healthy dose of reality..

As long as youze guys buy the crapola designed audio equipment that is on the market, your gonna have this problem.

Your line cords spray the supply haversines all over creation in the form of helically formed dipole magnetic fields, your amplifiers do NOTHING (I'll repeat)...NOTHING at all to prevent this, nor the internal chassis fields resulting from the line haversines, the secondary haversines, the secondary high slew rate audio currents (a result of forcing a low impedance output), the wall outlets FORCE the coupling geometry between the magnetic dipole and the ground loop (where do you think your amplifier is deriving it's input reference from????.

And all along, not a damn thing is being done to TEST your amplifiers to ground current sensitivity..

Where in hell do you think ground loop hum comes from????

Shielding the PC doesn't do a thing. Ferrites change the coupling constants, twist pitch of the PC affects it, PC insulation thickness affects it, ground loop resistance affects is, IC shield resistance affects it...connector resistance affects it..

In other words, while all you guys argue back and forth about cables do this, cables don't do that, yada yada..nobody's addressing the real issue...

Your systems are designed like crap.

Sorry..there's no other way to put it.

I've explained the relationships, drawn pictures, taken pictures...

Years now..and yet, you still have the problems..

No standards...how does one improve the technology without standards of test???

Cheers, John.

PS...cooooll..I actually ranted...

Hi John. It's been a long time. Seems you are doing well. Me too.

I really don't understand any of this. However, I'm currious as to whether balanced IC cables and differential inputs are attempts to address what you are describing, or are we talking apples and coconuts? The manual for my Parasound JC-1 mono amps - designed by your favorite and mine, John Curl - says the following:



Unbalanced connections with RCA jacks are found on all home audio equipment. RCA jacks and two conductor wires are less costly than the additional circuitry, higher priced XLR connectors and three conductor wiring required for balanced connections.

In an unbalanced line, the positive audio signal appears at the center pin of the RCA jack and the negative signal on the outer shield wire, which also functions as the grounds connection. Unbalanced interconnects cables are vulnerable to hum from an AC line, or other noise such as RF (Radio Frequency) which can be reproduced through your loudspeakers. Since the unbalanced line's ground also carries the audio signal, there is no way for the connected amplifier or preamplifier to distinguish between the audio signals you want and unwanted noise emanating from external sources.

Balanced lines are superior because they utilize separate conductors for audio and ground: two inner signal, carry the positive and negative audio signal, and a third outer wire connects the grounds and also shields the two signal conductors. When the positive and negative signals appear at the component receiving the signal they are equal, but 180 degrees out of phase with each other with respect to ground. To send and receive balanced signals requires special differential circuitry.

A differential input circuit amplifies only the difference between the positive and negative signals. For example, when a 1 Volt signal arrives at a balanced input stage, the differential input “sees” a 1 Volt minus a negative 1 Volt, or 2 Volts total. External hum and noise that somehow gets into a balanced line is common to both its positive and negative conductors with respect to ground. Therefore, it is canceled or rejected by the differential input circuit.



Any thoughts. And please don't have too much fun laughing at my ignorance.

[jneutron]

Your very knowlegeabe.Have a nice day

Color me confused.

Guess I fell hook line and sinker, eh??

T'would appear that gullibility is also present in large quantities, no??

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

Hi John. It's been a long time. Seems you are doing well. Me too..
Hey hey friend..It has indeed been a long time.

Long term employment is a concern, but otherwise doing well.


Any thoughts. And please don't have too much fun laughing at my ignorance.
Never have, never will. After all, this electronic stuff is just goop anyway. As long as it works when the key is turned, I don't care what's under the hood.

The writeup is quite accurate. The balanced setup does get rid of a lot of garbage that unbalanced can pickup.

But balanced does have susceptibility to ground currents in a way that is not normally considered. Better, but still not good enough. When standards for amp susceptibility are established for input ground currents, most of this PC cord causing changes will go away. Till then, it's like using a scattergun in the dark.

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

When standards for amp susceptibility are established for input ground currents, most of this PC cord causing changes will go away. Till then, it's like using a scattergun in the dark.
That's where no-risk home auditions come into play. I had the chance to listen to my choices before I purchased them.

rw

[Fergymunster]

You answered my reply.My intention is not to get in an ego game with you.Oh yeah,I think i'm really funny.Can't stop thinking about it,Ha HA. was up all night.Look move on, it is what it is.

[jneutron]

You answered my reply.My intention is not to get in an ego game with you.Oh yeah,I think i'm really funny.Can't stop thinking about it,Ha HA. was up all night.Look move on, it is what it is.

I am still confused.

What ego game??

What is what it is???

Did you actually have an incident as you stated? Or, was you post simply pointing out that there is life outside the web?

If you had the incident, I asked questions to determine what the conditions were surrounding it.

If you didn't have it, then I was caught hook line and sinker, you pulled a fast one and I fell for it..

In either case, there is no ego involved..So, this is why I am confused..

Cheers, John