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zappafreak
01-24-2004, 12:52 AM
I Use A Thornes Td 125mk2, Sme 3009 Improved Tone Arm And Shure V15vxmr Cart.
I Am Considering Going To The Vpi Hw-19 Mk4 Or Vpi Scout.
What Tone Arm Works Best With The Hw-19?
Is My Cart. Compatible With The Standard Scout Jmw-9 Tonearm Combo?
If I Upgrade To Either Of These Turntables Will I Hear A Big Difference?
Thanks,
Zf

hifitommy
01-24-2004, 08:03 AM
a sota saphirre tt, with the arm of your choice. a rega rb300 is good enough for that combo, and look into the vta adjuster. a nice ortofon Kontrapunkt b to top it off.

DMK
01-24-2004, 01:03 PM
I Use A Thornes Td 125mk2, Sme 3009 Improved Tone Arm And Shure V15vxmr Cart.
I Am Considering Going To The Vpi Hw-19 Mk4 Or Vpi Scout.
What Tone Arm Works Best With The Hw-19?
Is My Cart. Compatible With The Standard Scout Jmw-9 Tonearm Combo?
If I Upgrade To Either Of These Turntables Will I Hear A Big Difference?
Thanks,
Zf

Since Hifitommy mentions the Ortofon cartridge, I'll add that replacing your Shure with the Kontrapunkt will give you a bigger improvement than will replacing your table and arm. That said, yes the VPI will be an improvement over the Thorens (not that your current set up is bad - all that stuff is great for the money... actually, it's great for MORE than the money!). The Shure is a fine cartridge but is bettered by the Kontrapunkt. I'm not familiar with that particular SME arm but I've heard it's a good one. You might consider keeping it. It should go well with the HW19 mk IV but I believe the Scout comes with the JMW-9 arm and isn't available without. I have no experience with the JMW-9 but I owned the JMW-10 for awhile. It was a great sounding arm. The tonearms that I've used or heard with the VPI HW 19's are: Rega RB250, RB300 and RB600, the JMW arms, various SME's, Graham Robin, Morch UP4 or DP6 and recently the Clearaudio Unify. One person even had the Graham 2.0 on his mk IV. A $3K arm on an $1800 turntable might seem like overkill but it worked well.

Quite frankly, I'm taking Tommy's advice myself and am on the lookout for a Sota Sapphire or Star... or maybe a Cosmos again if I'm feeling spunky! :)

Good luck and have fun!

zappafreak
01-24-2004, 03:35 PM
Since Hifitommy mentions the Ortofon cartridge, I'll add that replacing your Shure with the Kontrapunkt will give you a bigger improvement than will replacing your table and arm. That said, yes the VPI will be an improvement over the Thorens (not that your current set up is bad - all that stuff is great for the money... actually, it's great for MORE than the money!). The Shure is a fine cartridge but is bettered by the Kontrapunkt. I'm not familiar with that particular SME arm but I've heard it's a good one. You might consider keeping it. It should go well with the HW19 mk IV but I believe the Scout comes with the JMW-9 arm and isn't available without. I have no experience with the JMW-9 but I owned the JMW-10 for awhile. It was a great sounding arm. The tonearms that I've used or heard with the VPI HW 19's are: Rega RB250, RB300 and RB600, the JMW arms, various SME's, Graham Robin, Morch UP4 or DP6 and recently the Clearaudio Unify. One person even had the Graham 2.0 on his mk IV. A $3K arm on an $1800 turntable might seem like overkill but it worked well.

Quite frankly, I'm taking Tommy's advice myself and am on the lookout for a Sota Sapphire or Star... or maybe a Cosmos again if I'm feeling spunky! :)

Good luck and have fun!

THE SCOUT IS AVAILABLE W/O TONEARM FOR ABOUT 1/2 PRICE.
WHAT ABOUT THE SHELTER 901 CART?
ZF

zappafreak
01-24-2004, 03:40 PM
a sota saphirre tt, with the arm of your choice. a rega rb300 is good enough for that combo, and look into the vta adjuster. a nice ortofon Kontrapunkt b to top it off.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THE SHELTER 901 CART?
ZF

DMK
01-24-2004, 04:51 PM
THE SCOUT IS AVAILABLE W/O TONEARM FOR ABOUT 1/2 PRICE.
WHAT ABOUT THE SHELTER 901 CART?
ZF

Check with the dealer for compatibility with the SME but it should be ok. You may need to pay a little more for a suitable armboard but it shouldn't be more than $100 or so. Most arms are suitable with most tables, at least esthetically if not mechanically, but I recall trying to have a JMW-10 put on a Sota Cosmos. It didn't work!

Someone that posts a lot on this site owns the Shelter. I think it's Jbangelfish. I'm not familiar with them but I've heard good things about them. I can't recommend what I haven't heard, though.

zappafreak
01-24-2004, 07:14 PM
Check with the dealer for compatibility with the SME but it should be ok. You may need to pay a little more for a suitable armboard but it shouldn't be more than $100 or so. Most arms are suitable with most tables, at least esthetically if not mechanically, but I recall trying to have a JMW-10 put on a Sota Cosmos. It didn't work!

Someone that posts a lot on this site owns the Shelter. I think it's Jbangelfish. I'm not familiar with them but I've heard good things about them. I can't recommend what I haven't heard, though.

MY ONLY RESERVATION ABOUT THE SME (3009 TYPE 2 IMPROVED) IS IT'S AGE (mid 70's).
TO ME IT WORKS O.K ( =right) BUT I WONDER IF SUCH AN OLDER DESIGN WILL KEEP UP WITH THE GRAHM ROBIN AND VPI JMW-9 TONEARMS.
NOW, I'VE READ THAT BACK THEN, THE SME WAS PERFECTED USING AN EARLIER V15. IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN WHAT'S THAT MEAN? DOES IT MEAN THAT THE 3009 IS A PERFECT MATCH FOR THAT V15 CARTRIDGE BUT NOT SO MUCH SO FOR THE LATTER V15 CARTRIDGE DESIGNS ?
BY THE WAY, LAST MONTH I GOT A MORRISON ELAD PRE-AMP (CHECK OUT THE RATING ON THIS SITE). MORRISON IS ALSO MAKING A PHONO STAGE . I'M USING A BLACK CUBE. ANY THOUGHTS ON PHONO STAGES?
THANKS,
ZF

ZF

DMK
01-24-2004, 07:31 PM
MY ONLY RESERVATION ABOUT THE SME (3009 TYPE 2 IMPROVED) IS IT'S AGE (mid 70's).
TO ME IT WORKS O.K ( =right) BUT I WONDER IF SUCH AN OLDER DESIGN WILL KEEP UP WITH THE GRAHM ROBIN AND VPI JMW-9 TONEARMS.
NOW, I'VE READ THAT BACK THEN, THE SME WAS PERFECTED USING AN EARLIER V15. IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN WHAT'S THAT MEAN? DOES IT MEAN THAT THE 3009 IS A PERFECT MATCH FOR THAT V15 CARTRIDGE BUT NOT SO MUCH SO FOR THE LATTER V15 CARTRIDGE DESIGNS ?
BY THE WAY, LAST MONTH I GOT A MORRISON ELAD PRE-AMP (CHECK OUT THE RATING ON THIS SITE). MORRISON IS ALSO MAKING A PHONO STAGE . I'M USING A BLACK CUBE. ANY THOUGHTS ON PHONO STAGES?
THANKS,
ZF

ZF

Well, you have a point about the age of the SME. I would imagine that at least SME thinks it has been improved upon since they haven't made the arm in some time and have since replaced it. I'd further guess that "perfecting" it with the V15 means that it was the cartridge they used when they built and tested the arm. That would make sense - the V15 was state of the art back then. I've heard two iterations of the V15 including the most recent one but I don't think there was much in the way of massive changes so it should work well with the new V15. Tonearms should work with a variety of cartridges, although check your arm mass and your cartridge compliance for compatibility. Some do NOT work well together.

Not much experience with phono stages. The best I've heard is the Klyne 7 Series. I tend to prefer solid state phono stages even though the rest of my amplification chain is all tubes. The Klyne is around $5K these days. For much cheaper, the Acoustech is fantastic and in the $500 range, I like the McCormack Micro Phono Drive. I've heard many others but only about 6 in my system. Currently, I'm using the Acoustech at around $1200.

hifitommy
01-25-2004, 10:01 AM
ANY THOUGHTS ON THE SHELTER 901 CART?
ZF
i have heard VERY good things about the shelter carts. i havent heard one myself so i cant comment. i HAVE heard the Kb and its a bargain.

maxg
01-26-2004, 04:03 AM
And for what it is worth I believe the 901 to be one of the best cartrdiges available on the market today - possibly the best.

I have owned and heard a good number of cartrdiges over the past few years and this one really stood out for me. Of course you have to match it to a suitable arm - medium mass at least, as it has a very low compliance figure.

You also need to evaluate your phono stage carefully. This is a low output cartridge (0.5) and needs considerable juice to drive it - you cant just connect it to a normal MM stage and get away with it.

There is nothing in my collection this cartrdige does not play wonderfully, and by wonderfully I mean considerably better than any of my previous carts - even in their supposed strong-holds (e.g. BPS for rock, Clearaudio Virtuoso for Classical etc.).

To me it is a must have - I dont plan to ever buy any other cartridge than this one.

Note : Shelter have brought out the 90X now - I havent heard it - reports are it is even better than the 901! We will see....

jbangelfish
01-26-2004, 09:51 AM
I considered Shelter as well as Audio Technica OC9 and Sumiko Blackbird (HO MC) but found a couple of NOS Fidelity Research LO MC's. I consider myself to be very fortunate as they are fantastic cartridges. At any rate, I would consider the Project RM4 for a new tt as it may be the best bargain out there at $500 with tonearm. Someone here has one and has only good things to say about it as do the reviewers.
If you get into MC cartridges, your old 3009 arm might let you down and you may need a different phono stage or a step up transformer. You could put a newer tonearm on your old Thorens and probably hear an improvement but if considering a new tt anyway, a Sota or the RM4 would likely serve you better. They should be good enough to upgrade to most any cartridge or tonearm if you ever decided to. When auditioning tt's, make sure that you know what cartridge is in place as it can make a very substantial difference in what you hear. To me the cartridge and tonearm will make a bigger difference than the turntable itself when considering tt's that are under 1k new as most of them should be fairly similar in capabilities. That is the tt's that have been mentioned, not $150 Technics or the like.
Bill

maxg
01-27-2004, 01:57 AM
JB,

That's why Shelter cartrdiges are not the only ones being made. Everyone has their own means of assessment of a cartridge. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that. FWIW - I have never heard the cartridge you have - you may be right - it may be miles better - I just cant imagine it.

jbangelfish
01-27-2004, 08:49 AM
Once you get up to $750 or more in cartridges, I would think most differences would be subtle. I would think that any of these should just do their job and retrieve everything that was put on the vinyl. Sonic signatures in high end cartridges must exist but I would expect them all to perform very well. I have been told that these old FR's compare with cartridges that cost $1500 to $3000 today. This makes me feel pretty good about finding a pair of them NOS for $625. Whether it's true or not, I can't say but I certainly have no reason to doubt this claim and they are easily the finest that I've ever owned. And likewise, I can't imagine anything being much better.
Bill

Chas Underhay
01-27-2004, 10:32 AM
IIf you get into MC cartridges, your old 3009 arm might let you down and you may need a different phono stage or a step up transformer. You could put a newer tonearm on your old Thorens and probably hear an improvement but if considering a new tt anyway, a Sota or the RM4 would likely serve you better. They should be good enough to upgrade to most any cartridge or tonearm if you ever decided to. When auditioning tt's, make sure that you know what cartridge is in place as it can make a very substantial difference in what you hear. To me the cartridge and tonearm will make a bigger difference than the turntable itself when considering tt's that are under 1k new as most of them should be fairly similar in capabilities. That is the tt's that have been mentioned, not $150 Technics or the like.
Bill

The Thorens TD 125 / SME 3009 / Shure V15 was as good as money could buy in its day.

A lot of people still seem to use classic turntables in the UK but fitted with modern arms and cartridges with seemingly good results.

The SME 3009s day ended, at least in the UK, about 20 years ago.

You could consider, at least for the time being, fitting a Rega RB 300 or one of the modified RB 250 arms to your Thorens with a good quality MC cartridge and phono pre-amp if required. Then change the tt in the future when more funds become available.

As far as I know, the SME 3009 does still work well with the V15 cartridge but definatly not MCs.

If you go down this route, I'd keep the old kit so that it could be re-assembled in the future, its classic.

jbangelfish
01-27-2004, 12:55 PM
A good arm upgrade and cartridge would probably work wonders for it. The Graham Robin for some reason, is taking a beating over on audio asylum. Not sure what about.
Bill

donald1959
10-18-2004, 06:17 PM
THE SCOUT IS AVAILABLE W/O TONEARM FOR ABOUT 1/2 PRICE.
WHAT ABOUT THE SHELTER 901 CART?
ZF

To DMK
Please elaborate on your reaction to the VP HW-19MkIV/Clearaudio Unify combination! stereowizard59@yahoo.com

E-Stat
10-19-2004, 03:31 PM
I believe the Scout comes with the JMW-9 arm and isn't available without.
It is available w/o arm for $900. I mounted my Souther on it. The armless version, nevertheless, comes predrilled for a conventional arm (see hole in pic). I cover the hole with my trusty Craftsman bubble level.

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/scout_arm.jpg">

rw

E-Stat
10-19-2004, 03:39 PM
I Use A Thornes Td 125mk2, Sme 3009 Improved Tone Arm And Shure V15vxmr Cart.
I Am Considering Going To The Vpi Hw-19 Mk4 Or Vpi Scout.
While I use a Scout, I think the biggest bang for your buck is to replace the cartridge with a high output MC type and oil dampen the tonearm (like was done in later production). Most MC cartridges would be a good fit masswise, and the damping trick helps imaging and warp tracking.


If I Upgrade To Either Of These Turntables Will I Hear A Big Difference?
What's your front end?

rw

DMK
10-19-2004, 04:58 PM
To DMK
Please elaborate on your reaction to the VP HW-19MkIV/Clearaudio Unify combination! stereowizard59@yahoo.com

It was a perfectly fine combo. No "wow" factor that I remember but wow factors are awfully hard to come by for me this late in the game. Maybe wow factors are wrong! But I could be perfectly happy with that combo.

I actually own the VPI jr but I upgraded the platter the the mk III and upgraded the clamp to the one piece. funny thing is that when I was looking to upgrade to the full blown III, I liked the sound less than my old Jr. But the upgraded platter and clamp was just the ticket. I do prefer the mk IV and there is no rhyme or reason why the mk III didn't sit well with me. Bad day, perhaps. Anyway, aside from the Graham arm, the arm I preferred was the Morch DP-6. I heard it before the Stereophile review and I was strangely pleased that MF's review was almost verbatim what my listening notes were. Hey, I musta been right! :).

My VPI has been around a spell and I was all set recently to upgrade to a Sota. I even had the funds ready. Then by a stroke of dumb luck, a horde of original Riverside, New Jazz and Blue Note LP's came my way and I dropped most of the money on them. The nice thing is if I had to do it all over again, I'd do it the same way. CD's NEVER sound this good! Not EVER!