Why I'm a bad audiophile

[Feanor]

Here at AR, (where I call myself an "audio enthusiast" anyway), it's not so bad, but in that other place I get no respect at all. Here are the main reasons.

I don't love vinyl. I don't think it is inherently the superior medium. I don't like the rice krispies. I think the big difference from CD is (or was in the past) recording method, and that the best CDs are as good or better than LPs. I don't cherish handling LPs: cleaning them before and after each playing; the tense moments lowering that $$ cartridge on the record, etc..
I don't love tubes. With good recordings, including RBCDs, decent quality solid state sounds better. I'm deeply suspicious that the "musicality", "soul", "depth", "harmonic texture", "wholeness", "continuity", etc., attributed to tubes are really artifacts of higher distortion.
I have no patience for tweaks. My experiments with the likes of power cords have been a wast of time and I certainly have inclination to spend a $1000 each on a set of them despite claims of "huge improvement" from some golden ears. I'm "close minded" about the possible benefit of jars of pebbles and the like.
I'm boggled at the price of very expensive components and doubt the incremental value of $5000+ amps, $10,000+ speakers, not to mention $100,000+ turntables.
But worst of all, I have a utilitarian attitude. That is, good enough is good enough. Tiny improvements and absolute perfection aren't essential to my enjoyment of the hobby.

:16:

[Florian]

Well to me all this money and equipment are means to an end. I know what i seek and i can accept the fact that it takes 25K plus amps to get there. Good enough is good enough, might be enough for some but doesnt have to be for all.

See on the bright site, i get respect from fellow audiophooles on this site but not from the masses because of the money invested blablah and get tons of repsect on audiophile sites for my dedication and knowledge. I just build my crossover where the parts alone cost me 3100$.....watch me get smoked for that on this site too....

Its all good...dont worry... :3:

PS: What is good enough for one might be just the beginning for another one.

[Feanor]

...
See on the bright site, i get respect from fellow audiophooles on this site but not from the masses because of the money invested blablah and get tons of repsect on audiophile sites for my dedication and knowledge. I just build my crossover where the parts alone cost me 3100$.....watch me get smoked for that on this site too....

PS: What is good enough for one might be just the beginning for another one.

Your obsession has made you pretty expert in some areas, and I'm glad you share that knowledge.


'Good enough' for me is for me, granted. My 'good enough' is conditioned by a lot of things: time, space, money, musical taste, etc.. And it's not a fixed thing. Nor I am I saying that I think my system is 'good enough' even for me a the moment. See a diagram of my current system ...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1632&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500

My vinyl playback would definitely not be 'good enough' if I actually listened to LPs very often, but since I don't, it is. I would like to replace the Behringer T1951 with a DEQ2496. Also the wireless connection to the NAS has occassional drop-outs, so I want to added an external HD directly to a hub with the M-Audio.

[Florian]

Looking good so far, my advise would be in the room and of course the crossover upgrade. The crossover upgrade will definetly throw the 1.6 into another league, if you would like i can give you some pointers etc...

As far as the good is good enough goes, let me say that i have been happy with all my systems and enjoyed music with all of them. But would i go back to a MG3.6 or MG20 now and be happy? No, i wont. Will i be happy now with a Krell KSA250 etc..? No, i wont.

Some reach for the limit and others dont, some are fine and happy where they are at and i will definetly not say that they are wrong. But i personally seak much much more and if we can respect that we are fine..


:-)

PS: My next upgrades are an apartment, then the power filters, powerlines and more on the room acoustic. I just bought a second pair of DIVAS here in europe that found with a digital active crossover. My new crossovers are done and sing heavinly... is it all insane? Yes it is, but once you hear it you will understand.

[Bernd]

Here at AR, (where I call myself an "audio enthusiast" anyway), it's not so bad, but in that other place I get no respect at all. Here are the main reasons.

I don't love vinyl. I don't think it is inherently the superior medium. I don't like the rice krispies. I think the big difference from CD is (or was in the past) recording method, and that the best CDs are as good or better than LPs. I don't cherish handling LPs: cleaning them before and after each playing; the tense moments lowering that $$ cartridge on the record, etc..
I don't love tubes. With good recordings, including RBCDs, decent quality solid state sounds better. I'm deeply suspicious that the "musicality", "soul", "depth", "harmonic texture", "wholeness", "continuity", etc., attributed to tubes are really artifacts of higher distortion.
I have no patience for tweaks. My experiments with the likes of power cords have been a wast of time and I certainly have inclination to spend a $1000 each on a set of them despite claims of "huge improvement" from some golden ears. I'm "close minded" about the possible benefit of jars of pebbles and the like.
I'm boggled at the price of very expensive components and doubt the incremental value of $5000+ amps, $10,000+ speakers, not to mention $100,000+ turntables.
But worst of all, I have a utilitarian attitude. That is, good enough is good enough. Tiny improvements and absolute perfection aren't essential to my enjoyment of the hobby.

:16:



Hi,
Sleep easy, you're not a bad audiophile- whatever that may be. As you know my system contains the exact opposite from what you like. I will not try to convince you that it is better or otherwise. I have been through the digital, solid state thing and was not satisfied. On my latest speaker purchase I had to make a choice between the £5k or the £9k version, and let me tell you there was a distinct difference. And since my money is hard earned the speakers had to justify the outlay and they did and I went for the signature version. Like Flo said it is all very subjective and I for one am very interested in reading about all systems in all price and performance ranges.
I tried a very expensive Clearaudio TT and to me, it was not worth the money and the sound it created did not move me. So I will do sent things back, but if they put the performance of my rig one or two notches up on the performance ladder I will spent what is necessary, at the moment I am saving for a Koetsu. It is after all my hobby but more so a passion. In the end it's music I love. And I agree with Flo in that I could not go back to anything lesser to serious move me.
So just enjoy what you have and be proud of it. Let the music flow my friend.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[emorphien]

Chances are you're in it more for the music, not the equipment and IMO there's nothing wrong with that. They're almost two different hobbies which some try to mix and some don't.

[Feanor]

Hi,
Sleep easy, you're not a bad audiophile- whatever that may be. As you know my system contains the exact opposite from what you like. I will not try to convince you that it is better or otherwise. ... and I for one am very interested in reading about all systems in all price and performance ranges.
...

Bernd

What's "good enough" is determined largely by sense of value which, in turn, is largely determined by disposable funds available -- very sadly in my case, not a lot :sad: No doubt if I had more cash, I'd go for a better system.

There are other factors things at work. For the same buck I could have a vinyl/tube set up, but digital is better overall for me because of the things that can be done with it that can't be done with analog. Nope, you won't persuade me otherwise :)

[Feanor]

Chances are you're in it more for the music, not the equipment and IMO there's nothing wrong with that. They're almost two different hobbies which some try to mix and some don't.

You're right about different hobbies, although for most audio enthusiasts/audiophiles there is overlap. (Most of us have met or at least heard of some guy who has $10k++ worth of equipment but no more than a dozen or twenty records.)

I don't know whether I'm more into the music than the average audophile. I have streak of DIY/experimenter in my that I would like to indulge. In the foresable future I'd like to build a pair of speakers utilizing active crossovers, time delay (as necessary), and equalization, all DSP. What I don't have much interest in is spending many hours A/B'ing dozens of pricey components or fiddling with exotic cables and isolation devices. I know I can make much more substantial improvements going my route than I can that route.

[Florian]

Chances are you're in it more for the music, not the equipment and IMO there's nothing wrong with that. They're almost two different hobbies which some try to mix and some don't.

Just a quick question, why cant a person love both music and expensive equipment? :confused5:

[emorphien]

Just a quick question, why cant a person love both music and expensive equipment? :confused5:
Did I say they couldn't?

[Florian]

Did I say they couldn't?

No, just sounded like you meant its one or the other. No harm :-)

[Modernaire]

One word for you Feamor. Lazy. :prrr:

[emaidel]

Here at AR, (where I call myself an "audio enthusiast" anyway), it's not so bad, but in that other place I get no respect at all.

I too consider myself an "audio enthusiast," and not an audiophile. If I'm not mistaken, "that other place" is one that kicked me off because I had the audacity to state material similar to that which you did in your post, and to openly disagree with some postings from that site's administrators. Fortunately, nothing like that happens here, as our admins seem to be built of intellectually superior stock.

I have invested over $10K in my system, and I suspect that, if I had money to spend/waste, I'd probably experiement with $35,000 turntables, $17,000 cartrdiges and stuff like that. Since I don't have that kind of money to throw around, and don't have my head in the stars, I don't do anything of the sort.

I thoroghly enjoy listening to my system, and have well over 1,000 each of LP's and CD's. I do my best to offer advice and my professional experience to anyone who asks, and have some very firm opinions of my own, based on having listened to recorded music for most of my 61 years on the planet, my frequent attendance at symphonic concerts, and the many years having been employed in the industry with a variety of manufacturers..

I find many of the postings here at Audio Review interesting, and some really silly. That's the way it goes, doesn't it?

Keep writing, and I'll keep reading, and thanks.

[GMichael]

Here at AR, (where I call myself an "audio enthusiast" anyway), it's not so bad, but in that other place I get no respect at all. Here are the main reasons.

I don't love vinyl. I don't think it is inherently the superior medium. I don't like the rice krispies. I think the big difference from CD is (or was in the past) recording method, and that the best CDs are as good or better than LPs. I don't cherish handling LPs: cleaning them before and after each playing; the tense moments lowering that $$ cartridge on the record, etc..
I don't love tubes. With good recordings, including RBCDs, decent quality solid state sounds better. I'm deeply suspicious that the "musicality", "soul", "depth", "harmonic texture", "wholeness", "continuity", etc., attributed to tubes are really artifacts of higher distortion.
I have no patience for tweaks. My experiments with the likes of power cords have been a wast of time and I certainly have inclination to spend a $1000 each on a set of them despite claims of "huge improvement" from some golden ears. I'm "close minded" about the possible benefit of jars of pebbles and the like.
I'm boggled at the price of very expensive components and doubt the incremental value of $5000+ amps, $10,000+ speakers, not to mention $100,000+ turntables.
But worst of all, I have a utilitarian attitude. That is, good enough is good enough. Tiny improvements and absolute perfection aren't essential to my enjoyment of the hobby.

:16:



I think you are a fine Audiophile/enthusiast. Let them like what they like. You can enjoy what you like. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to disagree.

[Feanor]

One word for you Feamor. Lazy. :prrr:

But lazy? Do you mean I ought to while away a dozen hours a week, for example, swapping cables in search of minute (or imaginary) improvements? Ain't going to happen :ciappa:

My life might not be very exciting, but it's more exciting than that!

[JohnMichael]

But lazy? Do you mean I ought to while away a dozen hours a week, for example, swapping cables in search of minute (or imaginary) improvements? Ain't going to happen :ciappa:

My life might not be very exciting, but it's more exciting than that!


I honestly did not understand the lazy comment or the need for it.
You like what you like and are not influenced by others or the trend of the week. I think that makes you a good audiophile.

[KaiWinters]

Florian, who started this on another site then moved here after receiving some bashing, earned the negative comments by stating, on another forum, that Paradigm, B+W and Bose all sound the same to him. This was during another "Bose Discussion".

Some, myself included, felt this was rather demeaning and beneath the spirit of "enthusiasts" of all forms and he was called on it.
Apparently he has resorted to starting this silly thread here in order to get some pats on the back for his indulgence describing his "indulgence" as an audiophile of the highest degree.

I do not denegrate his indulgence but do not like to be demeaned for doing the best I can with what I have. In fact I celebrate his enthusiasm for it continues the efforts for the best quality of sound by the designers, manufacturers and enthusiasts. We push the envelope constantly.
Florian's time and money spent is an audiophile of the highest degree. I would rather see that than the rich person, several are my friends, who will spend outrageous, in my opinion, amounts of money on a system that they barely know how to turn on, do not know how it was set up nor how to tweak it, do not appreciate the sound expect to say how much it cost...trophy...and would be just as well served by a Bose Lifestyle system and think it too was the best they ever heard.

We can learn from enthusiasts such as Florian.
Being demeaned, whether it was meant that way or not, by such as he is generally not tolerated and those that do are called on it.

[topspeed]

Feanor,

I don't think you're a "bad" audiophile at all. You just happen to be well grounded, not easily swayed, and confident in your own abilities. Nothing wrong with that all. Let's also keep in mind that your rig is far from mass market and is one that Joe Shmoe wouldn't even understand.

We've gone over the gear geek vs. music lover debate ad nauseum, so let's skip past that one again, m'kay?

For those like Bernd where this truly is a passion, I can certainly understand his depth of commitment and resources. I mean, why not? It's not like we can take it with us so you might as well indulge your interests for the short time we're all on this rock.

Personally, audio is an interesting diversion, a porthole to a different reality if you will. I'm blessed enough to have the resources to buy pretty well anything I want, but because I'm not as convicted as Bernd or others, I don't see the need to allocate as much as my attention or funds as they do (that's what cars and investments are for!). I enjoy what I have and save for the instances where some part simply becomes obsolete or breaks, rarely do I feel the need to upgrade. Oh sure, I'll build another 2 channel rig sometime, but that's for sh!ts and giggles. It won't mean that I'm dissatisfied with my current rig at all. Like you, I'm highly skeptical of magic sonic snot, green pens, and other geeky voo-doo. To Flo's credit, at least the upgrades he does make sense (unless he's simply not telling us about the other stuff ;) ).

Meh, I'm rambling. Sufficeth to say that if you're a "bad" audiophile, I'm absolutely rotten.:devil:

[Bernd]

Feanor,

I don't think you're a "bad" audiophile at all. You just happen to be well grounded, not easily swayed, and confident in your own abilities. Nothing wrong with that all. Let's also keep in mind that your rig is far from mass market and is one that Joe Shmoe wouldn't even understand.

We've gone over the gear geek vs. music lover debate ad nauseum, so let's skip past that one again, m'kay?

For those like Bernd where this truly is a passion, I can certainly understand his depth of commitment and resources. I mean, why not? It's not like we can take it with us so you might as well indulge your interests for the short time we're all on this rock.

Personally, audio is an interesting diversion, a porthole to a different reality if you will. I'm blessed enough to have the resources to buy pretty well anything I want, but because I'm not as convicted as Bernd or others, I don't see the need to allocate as much as my attention or funds as they do (that's what cars and investments are for!). I enjoy what I have and save for the instances where some part simply becomes obsolete or breaks, rarely do I feel the need to upgrade. Oh sure, I'll build another 2 channel rig sometime, but that's for sh!ts and giggles. It won't mean that I'm dissatisfied with my current rig at all. Like you, I'm highly skeptical of magic sonic snot, green pens, and other geeky voo-doo. To Flo's credit, at least the upgrades he does make sense (unless he's simply not telling us about the other stuff ;) ).

Meh, I'm rambling. Sufficeth to say that if you're a "bad" audiophile, I'm absolutely rotten.:devil:

Thanks for the kind words and I do hope that I'll have a few more years left before the big listening room in the sky (or down below) is calling me.
I actually do not like the term "Audiophile" it sounds somehow like something you shouldn't be, or shouldn't be doing.
Very simple, my hobby is the audio equipment and the parts requiered to enjoy a great recording, but my passion is music. I love to listen to the music I like with the best equipment I can afford. And I think if that criteria is used then it does not matter what the budget is.
It is of course all about priorities, I drive a 10+ years old 4 wheel drive and my wife has the new high performance car, but I have the listening room and the major system.
In the end it's your ears and mostly it's you alone listening to your music. So enjoy what you got. And topspeed, if I may say so, for a rotten devil you're doing alright!:)

Play dem tunes

Bernd:16:

[KaiWinters]

While I do not often post my membership goes back to 2003 so not particularly new to this site.

I would never tell a Bose owner that his/her speakers suck...that would be rude and uncouth. We make our purchases for many reasons and speaker purchases are generally the most "listener specific" purchase you can make. If a person were to ask me for advice regarding a speaker upgrade or purchase and was including Bose in their choice(s) I would ask them why and listen carefully to their reasoning. I would offer alternatives to Bose but always tell them to buy what makes your ears happy within the budget allocated and enjoy them.

PS: I prefer "Kai"...Mr Winters sounds condescending and a bit to formal.

In my opinion a "bad audiophile" is someone that throws money away on equiptment solely for the purpose of having a "trophy" that is bigger/better and badder than everyone elses but did not set it up because they barely have a clue on how to turn it on, no understanding of what they bought or why, would not open an owners manual or tweak said system even under extreme duress, barely even listens to it because they still do not know how to turn it all on and winds up using their "Bose Wave Machine" because it is easier...there are people out there that fit this description and bill themselves as "audiophile"...

I have been an audio enthusiast for over 30 years...going back to FM converters in cars...installing and tweaking car stereos in my cars and friends...moved to home stereo about the same time and have never stopped. Oft times we are restrained by budget and location when making purchases but I have not lost my "ear"...I am able to determine and describe the differences between speakers, receivers, etc by listening carefully. Most of us in fact do this and have quite sophisticated ears...sometimes we are limited by our benchmarks.

[Florian]

Dear Kai,

i should add that i did enjoy my beginnings where i had 4 Alarm clocks in every room tuned to the same station to my Fullrange ribbon system and everything in bettween.
I know very well what its like to have limited fund

There is a general missconeption about me on this site, and that is that i do not like systems such as B&W and Paradigm. Let me explain why this is.

As a owner of a audio systems well in realms of a new 5 series BMW i am often asked about the opinions of an audio system. I compare and judge every piece of gear against my personal reference system and then explain the shortcommings. To me a speaker needs to have 1 driver material for every single range, has to have no mass and a huge control. It should have no resonances made by a box and needs to be completely uncolored.

I do not describe a speaker with words such as "crisp" or "tight", i want a system where i am unable to tell the difference between reproduced and real. This is my personal goal!

Often a question is raised about a 600$ speaker which is already pretty expensive and there is a comment made by Woochiever, RGA, Kex etc.. where they seem to tell the new member that this Paradigm and Axiom will deliver the same sound quality then a State of the Art system for far less money. For instance, "Magnepan vs. BOSE" threads.

I for one find it laughable and so absordly wrong that i write pages and argue to the death with the likes of mentioned above to teach them. But i fail misserable and the "easiest" way to attack me is by calling me a snob and that the new member should ignore my recommendations because no one can afford them.

I see these things differently, Woochiever etc.. are croud pleaser. They say what the masses want to hear and get respect for that. Its no problem coppying the dolby guidelines or knwowing the sample rate of the new high res formats. This is not rocket sience but basic understandings. The use of carpets on the wall wont even break the waves of midrange signals.

But this is not the point, i love each and every system may they be 100 or 100000 Dollars but if Wooch comes in and tells me that he "chose" a Paradigm Ref 40 etc..over a big Electreostatic because of their supposely limited dynamic range etc. i jump in my seat and start to question the reality he is living in.

Is a Ford Mondeo a good car?
Yes, but is it as good as a Bentley Arnage?
No, it is not.

This is not sayint that the Ford is crap, but you cant compare a Ford to a Bentley.

Its the same in audio, but people use the easy way out and tell me that i am a snob because if it doesnt cost 10K it cant be good.

This is very untrue, but you need a certain budget to get quality sound. If i recommened you a 400$ speaker, how much do you think the parts cost? What about the workers, advertising, construction material, research etc... That speaker doesnt cost more then 40$ to make and B&W, Paradigm, Axiom, BOSE etc,,, are too me all the same. Mass market equipment with very big faulst and i would much rather recommend rare alternatives!

It is a fact, i would choose a 25 year old Magnepan over ANY B&W, ANY Paradigm or ANY Yamaha box.

Is this wrong? Does this mean that i do not like the person who has such a box?

No! But it is not my choice!

[kexodusc]

There is a general missconeption about me on this site, and that is that i do not like systems such as B&W and Paradigm. Let me explain why this is.
If it is true, it's not a missconception. It's a fact. Are you 100% sure you have never completely insulted and trashed one of these brands? Didn't think so.


. To me a speaker needs to have 1 driver material for every single range
To me, this is the kiss of death. Show me one material in existance that behaves the same across the entire band of frequencies. You can't. Materials differ in behavior as frequencies change. I prefer consistency, sometimes this necessitates having drivers of different materials. To be honest, I don't care what the material is as long as it sounds good.

has to have no mass
Everything has mass. Low mass or high mass by itself is not a determining factor of sound quality. That's right, mass has nothing to do with driver speed, frequency, or transient response. This is old news.


and a huge control Adequate control. When control exceeds the boundaries that influence human perception, it ceases to be a benefit.


It should have no resonances made by a box You must hate a lot of musical instruments. Personally I don't care how the sound is made, as long as it is accurate, with as little distortion as possible.


and needs to be completely uncolored. Agreed. Distortion sucks. You must hate ribbons as much as I do.


Often a question is raised about a 600$ speaker which is already pretty expensive and there is a comment made by Woochiever, RGA, Kex etc.. where they seem to tell the new member that this Paradigm and Axiom will deliver the same sound quality then a State of the Art system for far less money. For instance, "Magnepan vs. BOSE" threads.

Here you go lying again. I asked you last week to provide 1 example where I, or anyone else you implicated (now Wooch and RGA, that pair beats three of a kind anyday!!!) ever mentioned that Paradigm, or Axiom (or B&W for that matter) give the "same sound quality" as something far more expensive. Didn't happen. You can't find an example. You are making this up. I don't know why.


I for one find it laughable and so absordly wrong that i write pages and argue to the death with the likes of mentioned above to teach them. But i fail misserable and the "easiest" way to attack me is by calling me a snob and that the new member should ignore my recommendations because no one can afford them.
You miss the point again. Maybe it's the language barrier. If you ever leave your mommie's home and decide to buy your own, you migth ask for recommendations. You might have $2,000,000 to spend on a home. Nobody is doing you any favours recommending a $200,000,000,000,000,000 island somewhere.


This is not rocket sience but basic understandings. The use of carpets on the wall wont even break the waves of midrange signals.
Did someone say it will? Or are you making more lies up?


But this is not the point, i love each and every system may they be 100 or 100000 Dollars but if Wooch comes in and tells me that he "chose" a Paradigm Ref 40 etc..over a big Electreostatic because of their supposely limited dynamic range etc. i jump in my seat and start to question the reality he is living in.
This coming from someone who believes mass is bad and speakers should have no mass.


This is very untrue, but you need a certain budget to get quality sound . Wrong...YOU need to spend a certain budget to get what you THINK is quality sound. It's different for everyone, and there's no absolute right or wrong answer...



If i recommened you a 400$ speaker, how much do you think the parts cost? What about the workers, advertising, construction material, research etc... That speaker doesnt cost more then 40$ to make and B&W, Paradigm, Axiom, BOSE etc,,, are too me all the same. Mass market equipment with very big faulst and i would much rather recommend rare alternatives!
You like rare speakers. I like good sounding speakers. I don't care if their mass market or rare, as long as they are the are among the best in their price-range.


It is a fact, i would choose a 25 year old Magnepan over ANY B&W, ANY Paradigm or ANY Yamaha box.
Great. Other people would not. So what?



No! But it is not my choice!

Nobody has a problem with your choices. If Apogees and Paradigms cost the same, I suspect everyone would want Apogees. They don't. You seem incapable of grasping the reality that some people don't want the absolute best sound...they want the best sound they can afford...big difference.

[KaiWinters]

Florian based on your most recent post I have no disagreement with your statements. Matter of fact you just scared the hell out of me with your Ford vs Bentley comparison. I was going to add a similar comparison using the Ford Focus, your Mondeo, and the Bugatti but decided not to use other product comparisons to stray from the audio realm.

Unfortunately you made some people bristle, me for one, when you "stated" that to you Paradigm, B+W and Bose speakers all sound the same...that is not a worthy statement of an audio enthusiast or an audiophile but is the statement of a "snob" or one making "snobbish" comments that basically demean those "beneath" them...perhaps you did not intend it that way but you did say it in public and were called on it.

From this point on I have put the thread behind me and have enjoyed your most recent thread. It seemed, to me, to be a bit more thoughtful.

PS: The radio I have in my bathroom is the size of a Bose cube speaker, uses 4 AA batteries and is bright pink with yellow trim. It works fine for listening to the news, etc in AM mode. I can easily afford a much nicer radio but by far it is the favorite radio I will ever own because it was the first radio I bought for my daughter when she was 5. She carried it everywhere. When she out grew it I asked for it and see her every time I turn it on. She is now 21 and lives in another state where she is working on her second degree and preparing to "take care of good 'ol dad" when she is a wealthy woman...lol.

[emorphien]

Unfortunately you made some people bristle, me for one, when you "stated" that to you Paradigm, B+W and Bose speakers all sound the same...that is not a worthy statement of an audio enthusiast or an audiophile but is the statement of a "snob" or one making "snobbish" comments that basically demean those "beneath" them...perhaps you did not intend it that way but you did say it in public and were called on it.
Agreed 100%. He doesn't have to like them, but he's either being snobbish and condescending by that statement or really can't hear the differences and thus I doubt his ability to appreciate anything good, bad or obscenely expensive.

Perhaps his message is good, but he sure needs to work on a way to communicate it better.

[Florian]

Thanks for yet unother factless, pointless and idiot post Kex...it only further depends the opinion and the lack of respect of your knowledge we have on this forum about you. Yes i mention we, i am not alone. And while you at it, we can add Wooch. who copies and pastes articles.

-Flo

[Florian]

To emorphien (http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?u=251281) and Kai,

did it upset you that i said that BOSE, Paradigm and B&W all sound the same to me?
If so, then i am sorry. But to me they are the same when it comes to box resonances, different drivers (which reminds of the idiotic post from Kex because even if they behave differently at frequency varioations then its still better to use the same material instead of using many different ones which add another layer of BS), time alignmet porblems, small radiation size and high mass.

:-)

Nothing snobbish about it, i would take the 550$ Maggie over any B&W, Paradigm or BOSE.

PS: You will soon see Wooch jump in, then maybe Topspeed and maybe RGA....after all Kex. is here too. Just wait a bit, you will see what i speak of. (the ANTI-Quality police and the ANTI-DIfferent-Than-A-BOX-Police)

[PAT.P]

Thanks for yet unother factless, pointless and idiot post Kex...it only further depends the opinion and the lack of respect of your knowledge we have on this forum about you. Yes i mention we, i am not alone. And while you at it, we can add Wooch. who copies and pastes articles.

-FloFlo if your speakers are so great ,why are you putting a $3500 on a crossover.Is this changing the spec of the original.:ihih:

[Florian]

Flo if your speakers are so great ,why are you putting a $3500 on a crossover.Is this changing the spec of the original.:ihih:

Because my goal is not the price, but to further improve something. Apogee saved too, even on a system like that. Genesis saves money, so does Jadis. I tweak where i can. Besides, the "IF" is not needed in your question. ;-)

[kexodusc]

Is that the best you can do?

You accused me of making specific statements. I called you out on it. Here's your chance to really put me in my place and get the last laugh. Provide some evidence to support your assertions.

If you cannot, I kindly ask you to remove my name from your accusations.

[Florian]

Is that the best you can do?

You accused me of making specific statements. I called you out on it. Here's your chance to really put me in my place and get the last laugh. Provide some evidence to support your assertions.

If you cannot, I kindly ask you to remove my name from your accusations.


On second thought, your not worth my time. You have neither the knowledge nor anything to prove me wrong. I will follow the other members advice and simple ignore you just like i do with Wooch....and what i write stays.

[kexodusc]

On second thought, your not worth my time. You have neither the knowledge nor anything to prove me wrong. I will follow the other members advice and simple ignore you just like i do with Wooch....and what i write stays.

Well, when you and your other members are ready to come out of the closet and validate your claims, you might earn some credibility. Thanks for answering Flo.

[PAT.P]

Because my goal is not the price, but to further improve something. Apogee saved too, even on a system like that. Genesis saves money, so does Jadis. I tweak where i can. Besides, the "IF" is not needed in your question. ;-)So their really not the "HOLLY GRAIL" after all .:ihih:

[GMichael]

Mike walks in to say hi to everyone. He sees all the objects flying around the room crashing onto the walls. Gives the water cooler a push and walks out.

[Florian]

So their really not the "HOLLY GRAIL" after all .:ihih:

Why dont you visit me?

[Florian]

Hey Kex...we are not in the closet. Did you see that the people with lots of dedication, time and money invested dont talk with you and Wooch?

[Feanor]

Settle down, Flo. And be polite if not respectful.:frown2:

If we're not good enough for you, why not frequent AA? There are people there who will put you in your place quick enough.

[Florian]

Settle down, Flo. And be polite if not respectful.:frown2:

If we're not good enough for you, why not frequent AA? There are people there who will put you in your place quick enough.
Give me one reason why i should be nice to the people who are not nice to me? And put me in my place, hardly. I freqent a forum where there are no discussions like this. Where there are no fights or silly battles and the MUSIC comes first.

Where was I inpolite?

Why dont you write something when they call me a snob, a piece of ****? Where are the mods then? I am one of the most helpfull members on here, but i get condemmed for recommending something most on here dont have?

[emorphien]

To emorphien (http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?u=251281) and Kai,

did it upset you that i said that BOSE, Paradigm and B&W all sound the same to me?
If so, then i am sorry. But to me they are the same when it comes to box resonances, different drivers (which reminds of the idiotic post from Kex because even if they behave differently at frequency varioations then its still better to use the same material instead of using many different ones which add another layer of BS), time alignmet porblems, small radiation size and high mass.
Not at all, you can include Bose if you want. It just makes you sound more arrogant to include Bose in any list of respectable (but perhaps mass market or boxy) speakers.

The main thing is if you state all those box speakers sound the same, you're oversimplifying and simply speaking down to everyone who has "box" speakers and being simply disrespectful. You can say they all have some of the same limitations, but paradigms, B&Ws, Axioms, AV123 (another ID but I know little about them) all have some distinctly audible differences between them. The way you talk, and your wording makes it sound like either they're all trash and sound like tinny walky talkies or you don't know what you're talking about and don't have an ear to appreciate the differences between them.

Which brings me full circle to what I've said before, perhaps that's not your message and perhaps you aren't bragging when you volunteer information about how much you like to spend on things, but you sure could find some better ways to communicate it.

[Woochifer]

Well well well, yet another productive thread that Florian has taken into the crapper. I would respond directly, but Florian has gone on record as saying that he does not read any of my posts.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=134208&postcount=32

That might explain why he continually and repeatedly lies about the posts that I've made and the topics that I bring up. Since he does not read what I have to say, I'll go ahead and take his points up from a third person perspective.


Often a question is raised about a 600$ speaker which is already pretty expensive and there is a comment made by Woochiever, RGA, Kex etc.. where they seem to tell the new member that this Paradigm and Axiom will deliver the same sound quality then a State of the Art system for far less money. For instance, "Magnepan vs. BOSE" threads.

A bald faced lie by Florian. None of the posters cited have ever told anyone that a Paradigm or Axiom speaker will deliver the same sound quality as a "State of the Art" system. Florian has been asked by Kex and Wooch, among others, to cite posts that support his conclusion. Incidentally, Wooch has never heard an Axiom speaker and has never claimed as such.

To this date, no supporting evidence has been cited by Florian to attribute to the comments that he claims have been made, and Wooch adds that from his experience no supporting evidence to this effect exists. Only reasonable conclusion would be that Florian is either forgetful, deliberately not telling the truth, or exaggerating to an irresponsible extreme. If Florian wishes to impugn the credibility of other posters and chooses to single them out by name, then he needs to cite sources to support his assertions, otherwise the only credibility that he diminishes is his own.


I see these things differently, Woochiever etc.. are croud pleaser. They say what the masses want to hear and get respect for that. Its no problem coppying the dolby guidelines or knwowing the sample rate of the new high res formats. This is not rocket sience but basic understandings. The use of carpets on the wall wont even break the waves of midrange signals.

Simple fact is that many of the posters on this forum do not know about Dolby guidelines, sampling rates, etc. Providing this information is a "basic" but necessary function that a forum such as this one provides. Florian's statement that carpets on the wall do not "break the waves of midrange signals" is true, but then again, nobody that Wooch can remember has ever made a statement that carpets can "break" midrange signals. To Wooch, statements like this constitute a logical fallacy, otherwise known as a strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Wooch does not play to the crowd. He bases his posts on personal experience, measurements, information accumulated through secondary sources, and his own opinions. If Wooch's conclusions are similar to those of other posters, it's because he chose to apply what others recommended, and came to the conclusion that advice from people such as Sir Terrence, Doc Greene, and others improved his enjoyment of the audio hobby. Wooch does not care if his posts garner respect from others on the board, because this is a hobby and his purpose for being on this board is to share the enjoyment and experience. If he gets respect, it might be because for the most part he gives respect.

Incidentally, Florian has shown enough concern about his reputation on the Audioreview board to dedicate entire threads to himself.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=14044
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=12174


But this is not the point, i love each and every system may they be 100 or 100000 Dollars but if Wooch comes in and tells me that he "chose" a Paradigm Ref 40 etc..over a big Electreostatic because of their supposely limited dynamic range etc. i jump in my seat and start to question the reality he is living in.

Another Florian fallacy, because Wooch has never said that he "chose" a Paradigm "Ref 40" over a "big Electreostatic" due to their "limited dynamic range etc." The only "Electreostatic" that Wooch considered was the Magnepan 1.6, which is not one of their "big" models. With this in mind, unless Florian can come up with an example where Wooch made this statement, then one would have to question which reality Florian is coming from.

Speaking of reality, Florian has recently gone on record as saying that Bose, Paradigm, and B&W sound the same.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=135025&postcount=78

Yet, Florian has also claimed that his ears can detect a 0.5 db variation.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=132718&postcount=5

So, if Wooch has actually measured a 2 db difference between a Bose 301 and a Paradigm Studio 40, how does Florian not hear it? After all, Bose and Paradigm sound the same to his ears. A measureable level difference of >0.5db would imply that they should not sound the same to Florian's ears.

Perhaps, a 2 db level difference is not significant, because the DAC was not mounted on a stone base. After all, Florian says that he hears differences between when a DAC is placed on stone vs. wood.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=126251&postcount=28


Thanks for yet unother factless, pointless and idiot post Kex...it only further depends the opinion and the lack of respect of your knowledge we have on this forum about you. Yes i mention we, i am not alone. And while you at it, we can add Wooch. who copies and pastes articles.

Kex's response to Florian made several key points that Florian chose not to respond to in a factual, reasonable, and logical manner. This type of tirade that Florian spouted out is very common throughout the Internet whenever a poster is caught making factual errors that he cannot defend. Common responses include changing the subject, repeating the same baseless point over and over, ignoring/looking past, etc. In this case, Florian responded to Kex's factual points by making personal insults that mature minds might regard as childish and weakminded. Generally, this type of behavior manifests itself because someone cannot take responsibility for a mistake or admit when they're wrong. Of course, Florian has also claimed that he's never wrong, so that might explain why he takes things so personally whenever his factual errors are pointed out.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=134895&postcount=5

Florian also tried a less common method of defensive posting by citing unnamed sources that support him personally, but still do not refute any of Kex's points. Wooch would add that Kex's input has not forced any threads to be moved over to the Steel Cage, which considering his high post count, would indicate a high degree of respect from others on the Audioreview board.

Florian attempts to further denigrate Wooch by accusing him of copying and pasting articles. Wooch would add that not only does he copy and post articles, he also posts his personal opinions, cites his sources, and occasionally cracks off-color jokes. In response to Florian, Wooch will link to Florian's previous posts to point out contradictions and inconsistencies, but those are not "articles."

Florian's point about "adding" Wooch to the list of ignored posters is another illogical statement, because Florian has already told Wooch on at least three previous occasions that he does not read Wooch's posts. Tense agreement is obviously a grammatical issue that Florian needs to keep straight if he wants his outbursts to sound somewhat logical.

Then again, logic does not seem to be an objective with Florian's posts.

[Florian]

Not at all, you can include Bose if you want. It just makes you sound more arrogant to include Bose in any list of respectable (but perhaps mass market or boxy) speakers.

The main thing is if you state all those box speakers sound the same, you're oversimplifying and simply speaking down to everyone who has "box" speakers and being simply disrespectful. You can say they all have some of the same limitations, but paradigms, B&Ws, Axioms, AV123 (another ID but I know little about them) all have some distinctly audible differences between them. The way you talk, and your wording makes it sound like either they're all trash and sound like tinny walky talkies or you don't know what you're talking about and don't have an ear to appreciate the differences between them.

Which brings me full circle to what I've said before, perhaps that's not your message and perhaps you aren't bragging when you volunteer information about how much you like to spend on things, but you sure could find some better ways to communicate it.

Well it must be a language barrier. This is not my main language, and i am a direct person. I know that a Paradigm Ref. 40 will blow any BOSE to pieces, and that the for a commercial company the B&Ws are great speakers. I can easily hear the differences and i can apreciate those systems. They are not what i like and i could not live with them. But they are good systems nonetheless in their respected classes.

Here are boxes that I like and that I can recommend have recommended before many times

*I will only name Companys

Avalon
Kharma
Thiel
Genesis
Alon
Dali
Naim
Ayon
Avantgarde
Duntech
Rega
Tannoy
Isis
TEAC
TDL

[Florian]

"Electreostatic" that Wooch considered was the Magnepan 1.6
And this is the problem my friend. Yes i did read your post and i can agree and see the problems i have made BUT, this is the problem. Maggies are not ELECTROSTATICS....they are nowhere near one in terms of technology. I DO NOT understand nor can i respect your helpfull guidence (when it comes to planars) if you cannot difference between them.

-Florian

PS: I dont comment on Dolby Surround or Home Theaters. I only comment on planar systems because that is what i know. If you would simply only talk about what you know, we wouldn have this problem.

[Woochifer]

Back to the original topic ...

Feanor -

I actually look at your perspective as common sense. You don't see the value of going beyond a certain price point and performance level, so you do the best within your financial and lifestyle boundaries, and just enjoy the music. You have your preferences, a system you're happy with, and are totally comfortable with that. From a practical point of view, you're going to save a lot of money and be just as happy in the end.

I think the biggest fallacy that's been circulated among a lot of audiophiles is that the size of the financial investment made in an audio system equates to how passionate someone is about music. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. It's just as possible to have a dedicated audiophile who appreciates music, as it is to find an audiophile who chooses their music based strictly on the sound quality. Conversely, it's also easy to dedicated music fanatics who don't care one way or another how it sounds. Most of us are somewhere in between these extremes.

[Woochifer]

And this is the problem my friend. Yes i did read your post and i can agree and see the problems i have made BUT, this is the problem. Maggies are not ELECTROSTATICS....they are nowhere near one in terms of technology. I DO NOT understand nor can i respect your helpfull guidence (when it comes to planars) if you cannot difference between them.

I thought you weren't reading my posts! How disappointing that you can't follow through on what you say you'll do yet again (y'know like the last two times that you said you were leaving the board cuz we were all such ignoramuses?). Seems that you feign ignorance just so that you can just keep repeating the falsehoods that I call you out on.

Since I seem to have reclaimed your attention (the degree to which you invoke my name in your posts indicates a rather unhealthy obsession with me, even if you claim to ignore me), why don't you tell me where I have ever equated a Paradigm Studio 40 with a "big Electreostatic"? Please keep in mind that there's no such thing as an "Electreostatic" speaker, and I intentionally carried over your misspelling repeatedly to make that point. If you're referring to "Electrostatic" then indeed I misspoke. (See? If I make a mistake or misspeak, I will actually admit it. Maybe you should try that for a change)

But, if you're limiting the discussion to "big Electrostatics" then that just further diminishes the truthfulness of your original statement, since I never "chose" the Studio 40 over any of them. Time to put up or shut up. You fling an awful lot of accusations around, with nothing to support them. And you wonder why you get called out as often as you do.


PS: I dont comment on Dolby Surround or Home Theaters.

You sure about that?

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=126470&postcount=7
http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=129965&postcount=2
http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=131782&postcount=37

[Florian]

Strong words!

I speak of the comment made by you where you stated the lack of dynamics compared to your choice (Paradigms in your gallery) which were as i recall the Innersound ESL's. You cannot call me out on spelling to cover your lack of knowledge on the subject. Remember when i called you upon your generalisation of "planars" ?

The members who are interested in this battle (properbly not many) are more then welcome to seek through your countless numbers of Paradigm recommendations to find the exact statement which i have a problem with. They will find your statement about the limitations of the Apogee Fullrange too which are none-existant.

I will say it one last time and one time only. Stay on your own grounds!

I am not acusing you of anything, i am stating my opinion which i believe and are therefore facts for me. I read this one thread of yours since i hoped that you had learned, but apperently not. I had hoped that i can bring this forum and some of its members to great musical realms. I have achieved that with a few people, but you can take the rest and keep recommending the same speakers over and over again while picking my statements apart together with the rest of the audioreview clic

[topspeed]

Why did I know this thread was going to end up like this? :mad2:

Out of respect for Feanor, I'll refrain from commenting.

[Feanor]

Back to the original topic ...

Feanor -

I actually look at your perspective as common sense. You don't see the value of going beyond a certain price point and performance level, so you do the best within your financial and lifestyle boundaries, and just enjoy the music.
....
In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. It's just as possible to have a dedicated audiophile who appreciates music, as it is to find an audiophile who chooses their music based strictly on the sound quality. ....

I'm reassured by most of the comments people have made -- even Florian's to an extent. I've never doubted the validity of my own interest. And I think today it's finely balanced between music and sound quality.

One the one hand, if I had more money or fewer other commitments I would indulge myself with fancier equipment. On the other hand I'd buy a lot more music too. The latter is much more important presently and I spending more money there. Though my interest in the hobby goes back 35 years, I almost entirely abandoned it for an interval of almost 15 years. Consequently my music collection is really very small: maybe 400 CD/SACD and 200 LP (which I hardly listen to). I need to get caught up big time!
:21:

[Woochifer]

I speak of the comment made by you where you stated the lack of dynamics compared to your choice (Paradigms in your gallery) which were as i recall the Innersound ESL's.

Nope, never did. It would help if you actually verify before you accuse.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=15000


You cannot call me out on spelling to cover your lack of knowledge on the subject. Remember when i called you upon your generalisation of "planars" ?

Yes, and I corrected myself to state that my comments were limited to the planar speakers that I've heard. On the other hand, you've demonstrated plenty of times that you will generalize based on things that you've not heard and not correct yourself when people call you out on it (i.e. these constant shots that you take at Paradigm when you haven't even heard their current lineup).


The members who are interested in this battle (properbly not many) are more then welcome to seek through your countless numbers of Paradigm recommendations to find the exact statement which i have a problem with. They will find your statement about the limitations of the Apogee Fullrange too which are none-existant.

Your selective memory seems to lead you astray. For all the accusations that you have ascribed to Kex, or topspeed, or RGA, or myself, you've yet to find a single post that supports your statements. Doubtful that anybody's interested in all the flame wars that you start either. But, when you accuse people of saying stuff that they don't say, changing the subject won't make you any less of a liar and a hypocrite than your posts demonstrate.

My impressions of the Apogee Fullrange are based on first hand listenings. If you can't accept that, it says more about your purported open mindedness and "respect" for other peoples' opinions than anything else you might add.


I will say it one last time and one time only. Stay on your own grounds!

And I will post wherever my contribution is appropriate, regardless of whatever smear job or poseur bullying tactic you might try. And if I don't do what poor little Florian says, what are you going to do? Go cry to mommy? :rolleyes:


I am not acusing you of anything, i am stating my opinion which i believe and are therefore facts for me. I read this one thread of yours since i hoped that you had learned, but apperently not. I had hoped that i can bring this forum and some of its members to great musical realms. I have achieved that with a few people, but you can take the rest and keep recommending the same speakers over and over again while picking my statements apart together with the rest of the audioreview clic

If you claim that I said something, then you'd better back that up, otherwise it's far from a "fact" and closer to outright lie. Just because you believe something does not make it true. Saying that I said something is not an "opinion" -- it's a statement of fact if it's true, and a lie if it's false. Given that I have never said the things that you accuse me of, that make your "opinion" a lie.

Kex called you out, and you responded, not with facts, but with personal attacks. And in the end, you still couldn't find a single post that he's made that fits what you ACCUSE him of.

On this thread and on others, I have called you out for making false statements about things I've said. Your response lately has been that you were no longer reading my posts. As shown on this thread, you not only read my posts, but keep spinning the same falsehood over and over despite what my posting history actually says.

The only person who hasn't "learned" seems to be you. It doesn't matter how much you think you help other members, or how valuable you feel your knowledge is, or how wonderful you feel your system is. It doesn't give you a free pass to attack people who disagrees with you by distorting, impugning, and lying about things that they say. But, I guess if you need the attention, then no better way than to falsely accuse someone.

[KaiWinters]

Florian, apologizing for upsetting me over the Bose/Paradigm/B+W comment is unnecessary but welcome...thanks...
I enjoy strong discussion and arguments immensely so long as they do not resort to name calling.
I am not an audiophile but am a long time enthusiast that has passed on my enthusiasm to my son and daughter...makes me happy and proud.
I respect all the members that take the time and energy to post whether helping others or arguing their stands/opinions.
I do get pissed at some comments and statements for varied reasons and state my case.
Seems we all do that some more enthusiastically than others.

[E-Stat]

One the one hand, if I had more money or fewer other commitments I would indulge myself with fancier equipment. On the other hand I'd buy a lot more music too.
I think it is sad that discussing our shared passion ends up so contentious. While there are certainly those who parade their expensive systems around like jewelry, most of the audio enthusiasts I know do it for the love of music. I have been blessed for the past thirty years to count two audio reviewers as friends who have given me exposure to gear (and music) I would never have otherwise been able to sample.

How do I say this and convey my true feelings without sounding snobbish? Ok, my main system is worth more than my Acura. There are those who say that audible differences with systems more expensive than that would be so slight as to not make a difference. I assure you this is not the case. I really wish everyone had the chance to hear a system of the caliber found in Seacliff. You would hear your music for the very first time. It is truly a treat.

Having said that, I likely listen more to my vintage Advent based system in the garage than the main one. While you can extract enjoyment from virtually any system, it sure is fun to hear what is possible now and again.

rw

[Feanor]

...
There are those who say that audible differences with systems more expensive than that would be so slight as to not make a difference. I assure you this is not the case. ....
rw

Thanks, E-Stat,

Perhaps my "good enough" statement was misleading. I didn't mean to imply that my system was as good as I, (much less another person), need or would like it to be. I only mean to convey that I don't obsess about searching for hypothetical improvements, (unless I am conscious of a specific problem),.

But yes, it's true that I am skeptical about the benefits of costly tweaks such as $1000 power cords. (1) Will there be a significant improvement? (2) Will the expenditure really provide value versus other alternatives, e.g. obtaining more music.

With music, on the contrary, I am always looking for new stuff at least with the broad genre of the classics and jazz.

[KaiWinters]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

I could certainly have ridden a less expensive bike that would almost do what I have just described but it would not be the same and would not let me compete at the level I competed. My bike was average in the field...meaning we all had similarly costly bikes.


There are also a great many trophy bike riders out there that would not take their $7000 Colnago out in the rain, never raced nor even ridden hard and cried the first day the frame got a chip. I am glad they can ride such a bike and do not decry their purchase as a waste of money...there are far worse ways to spend money...they loved their bikes and kept the industry humming.

[Bernd]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

Well said. What a good post.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[E-Stat]

I only mean to convey that I don't obsess about searching for hypothetical improvements...
Neither do I. I evaluate those improvements I know exist through direct experience.


But yes, it's true that I am skeptical about the benefits of costly tweaks such as $1000 power cords. (1) Will there be a significant improvement? (2) Will the expenditure really provide value [
So was I. Until I heard some in my own system for a week. Significant improvement? No. Value? Value lies in the eyes (and wallet) of the beholder. It also depends upon those aspects of the musical experience that are most important to you.

Skeptic was all about flat response. He spent years tweaking his two EQs to get his AR-9s to be flat. Resolution, however, was clearly unimportant to him. While boasting of living in a million dollar house and making over a million dollars in real estate, he chose to use a 1974 H-K Citation preamp (I owned one thirty years ago myself) and a Dynaco ST-120 amp with MOSFETs. To each his own. :)

As for me, I relate to music not only on an emotional level, but on a mental one as well. It is a way for me to keep my mind busy. Music is always running through my head. As a result, I delight in hearing previously unheard of detail found deeper in my music. The kind that better cables provide. Is that a 5% improvement? 2%? Who knows. It is, however, important to me.

There is far more information "trapped" in recordings that most folks give credit for. Even pop recordings like Madonna. I can still clearly remember first hearing the "Ray of Light" album on HP's incredible system. I had never really heard it before. The image size dissolved the walls. All of the instrumental rhythms were laid bare and revealed in their entirety. I now understand his notion of "authority". Completely effortless sound with significant HF energy - yet not sounding the least bit bright.

rw

[GMichael]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

I could certainly have ridden a less expensive bike that would almost do what I have just described but it would not be the same and would not let me compete at the level I competed. My bike was average in the field...meaning we all had similarly costly bikes.


There are also a great many trophy bike riders out there that would not take their $7000 Colnago out in the rain, never raced nor even ridden hard and cried the first day the frame got a chip. I am glad they can ride such a bike and do not decry their purchase as a waste of money...there are far worse ways to spend money...they loved their bikes and kept the industry humming.

Interesting. When I compare this to my experiences, I see similarities in my billiard world. I have many pool cues now. Started with a $50 cue and have gone as far as spending $5000 on one. The $5000 one does hit better. But it was more the feeling of shooting with a hand made, one of a kind, piece of art, cue that made me feel like I could do anything. I made more shots because I believed I could. But in the end I used my $800 cue more than any of the others. It was technically "better" than even the 5k one.
There were/are many types of players out there as well. I know guys/girls who have spent $20k on a cue and I can beat them 9 out of 10 times. I also know people who use house cues and all I would get to do is watch & rack.

[Bernd]

Interesting. When I compare this to my experiences, I see similarities in my billiard world. I have many pool cues now. Started with a $50 cue and have gone as far as spending $5000 on one. The $5000 one does hit better. But it was more the feeling of shooting with a hand made, one of a kind, piece of art, cue that made me feel like I could do anything. I made more shots because I believed I could. But in the end I used my $800 cue more than any of the others. It was technically "better" than even the 5k one.
There were/are many types of players out there as well. I know guys/girls who have spent $20k on a cue and I can beat them 9 out of 10 times. I also know people who use house cues and all I would get to do is watch & rack.

I know what you mean Mike.
I have a bespoke Holland & Holland side by side amongst several other shootguns. On a very expensive shoot day I take the Holland and it shoots beautiful and makes you feel good for owning such a finely crafted piece, but on ordinary days I take the Beretta and it also shoots great and strangely enough I feel more comfortable with it.
Go figure.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[E-Stat]

The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was first exposed to critical listening with professional audio reviewers at 18, I certainly did not comprehend the full measure of differences they would identify. Over time, I was taught how to listen and what to listen for. I was also introduced to classical music in a big way during those years. Today, those mentors (both in their sixties) are still able to discern finer differences than I.

I trust, however, you would consider the performance differences you noted with the Colnago to be more than "hypothetical".

rw

[Feanor]

I know what you mean Mike.
I have a bespoke Holland & Holland side by side amongst several other shootguns. On a very expensive shoot day I take the Holland and it shoots beautiful and makes you feel good for owning such a finely crafted piece, but on ordinary days I take the Beretta and it also shoots great and strangely enough I feel more comfortable with it.
Go figure.

Peace

Bernd

I mean your H&H, Bernd. "Trophies" are the dialiance of the rich whom I can only envy.

But as you say, "If you can't run - walk". I can't affort capuccino, I have to settle for coffee.

[Feanor]

...
Value? Value lies in the eyes (and wallet) of the beholder. It also depends upon those aspects of the musical experience that are most important to you.
...
rw

Of necessity, sad to say :sad:

What I tend to look for is transparency, viz. detail, spatial clues, separation of voices and instruments, "air" around the performers. I won't sacrifice these for smoothness, depth, bloom or harmonic richness (whatever they are). I do value good frequency response because, as a person reasonably familiar with live accoutic instrument sound, I find flat sounds more like real.

[E-Stat]

What I tend to look for is transparency, viz. detail, spatial clues, separation of voices and instruments, "air" around the performers. I won't sacrifice these for smoothness, depth, bloom or harmonic richness (whatever they are).
You have a really good system that I think is capable of a bit more. Of all the systems in HP's house, there is only one pair of speakers found among the hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear (and cable) that he actually bought with his own money. The envelope please? MG 1.6s. Take this advice or leave it: buy a Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for around $50 US on Ebay and plug everything but the power amp into it.

I recently bought another one for my vintage system. Differences? Subtle to be sure. A bit blacker or quieter. More inner detail. Wisps from vocalizations are more apparent. You can better hear the squeak of strings. Everything sounds a bit less bright. I find the last level of improvement not at all "impressive" sounding in the usual audio cowboy sense of the word. It may not be immediately apparent either. Play your favorite recordings and I think you'll discover those passages where the recording reveals more of itself to you.

That is where I find the joy.

rw

[Florian]

I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do.

-Flo

PS: Tweaking is fun, and reaching more and more is part of the hobby for me. I get my joy from that too. Its 3AM in the morning and i just increased the capacitance of my super tweeter from 28uF to 44uF and cant sleep. I listen to music for hrs and hrs non stop and its one hell of a ride.

[Feanor]

You have a really good system that I think is capable of a bit more. Of all the systems in HP's house, there is only one pair of speakers found among the hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear (and cable) that he actually bought with his own money. The envelope please? MG 1.6s. Take this advice or leave it: buy a Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for around $50 US on Ebay and plug everything but the power amp into it.
...
rw


Currently my power delivery chain consists of:
Tripp Lite IS1000 isolation transformer
Belden/Wattgate cable
PS Audio Ultimate Outlet
Belden/Wattgate cable
Bel Canto eVo2i

... same PS Audio
attached cable
Sony SCD-CE775

... same Tripp Lite
attached or 16 g. cables
other components

The Tripp Lite and PS Audio might be effect from a protection point of view, but neither they not the Belden cable made any difference to the sound that I could hear -- then, as I said above, I don't go nuts A/B'ing components listening for tiny differences.


In the past I have had the impression that speaker cables, and even interconnects, have actually made a small difference. But recently I swapped Nordost Flat Line Gold single cables for Monster 14 g. bi-wires, however I heard no difference.

[Bernd]

I mean your H&H, Bernd. "Trophies" are the dialiance of the rich whom I can only envy.

But as you say, "If you can't run - walk". I can't affort capuccino, I have to settle for coffee.

Hi Feanor,

I am far from rich, I was just fortunate that the risks that I've taken rolled my way.It could have been oh so different!
The H&H was a birthday present from my Dad.Once you fortunate enough to own something special a different kind of pride in ownership comes into it, for me anyway. And I drink coffee (black,no sugar) most of the time, too. Capuccino is a little bit too poncy for me.
You also mentioned that you had a brake from the audio hobby and I too in the late 80's early 90s had a sabatical from serious audio to build up my business (18-20 hours work a day, 7 days a week), which I had to sell in' 93 due to health problems. That was the time span when I sold most of my Vinyl collection to replace them with the "perfect sound forever" little silver discs. Something I'll regret to this day, but it fired up my enthusiasm even more.So now I have almost replaced all those lost records again with Vinyl, and they will not leave again from here.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[PAT.P]

[QUOTE=Florian]I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do. __________________________________________________ ________________________ What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging :ihih: What are your ears rated 60khz?:ihih:

[GMichael]

What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging :ihih: What are your ears rated 60khz?:ihih:

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?

[L.J.]

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?

[Resident Loser]

[QUOTE=Florian]I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do. __________________________________________________ ________________________ What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging :ihih: What are your ears rated 60khz?:ihih:

...he doesn't know how to solder and is making cold joints...after all the solder is only supposed to encapsulate the joint... the basic mechanical (and therefore electrical) connection needs to be tight and have proper conductor-to-conductor contact...that is what counts...

jimHJJ(...Eutectic solders don't make up for lousy craftsmanship...)

[GMichael]

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?

That depends on if it's raining on not.

[PAT.P]

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?All depends on the watts of your grinder,the brand of grinder and crossover of grinder:ihih:

[PAT.P]

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?The 45 sec would be a finer grind not as robust as a 30 sec grind.:ihih:

[PAT.P]

That depends on if it's raining on not.What about how its being serve ?Does it taste the same in a mug than what it would taste in stainless steel travel mug or plastic mug.If you have coffee in a tea cup ,does it taste like tea or coffee?:ihih:

[GMichael]

What about how its being serve ?Does it taste the same in a mug than what it would taste in stainless steel travel mug or plastic mug.If you have coffee in a tea cup ,does it taste like tea or coffee?:ihih:

My grinder has a low cross of 700hts and a high of 2k. It's 20megawatts into 1.56 ohms. 45 secs turns the grinds into dust and they become airborne. At 30 secs it comes out just right. Coffee should never be served in a tea cup! It kiils the taste. Plastic or SS travel mugs are out too. It should always be severed at 175F. In a 5.4oz mug made of ceramic clay that was heated to 756F and then glazed with an african pottery glaze that I'm not alowd to tell you the name of. You can take it black or with half & half. Never ever with milk. Light cream is OK for special occasions. No more than 1 sugar. No artificial sweeters either. On sunny days it should be served from the upper left. Lower left on rainy days. For extra pionts you can also serve those little cheese biscuts with real butter.
Can you smell it yet?

[PAT.P]

My grinder has a low cross of 700hts and a high of 2k. It's 20megawatts into 1.56 ohms. 45 secs turns the grinds into dust and they become airborne. At 30 secs it comes out just right. Coffee should never be served in a tea cup! It kiils the taste. Plastic or SS travel mugs are out too. It should always be severed at 175F. In a 5.4oz mug made of ceramic clay that was heated to 756F and then glazed with an african pottery glaze that I'm not alowd to tell you the name of. You can take it black or with half & half. Never ever with milk. Light cream is OK for special occasions. No more than 1 sugar. No artificial sweeters either. On sunny days it should be served from the upper left. Lower left on rainy days. For extra pionts you can also serve those little cheese biscuts with real butter.
Can you smell it yet?I want your coffee ,Im having one that was brew in a coffee maker with store bought grind,Im out of biscuts and tea biscuit are not the same.I need to mask the taste with some Irish Cream.I notice you play Billiard ,does the table have slate or only plywood?Does the ball roll faster on slate table?Do you have a table or do you hustle in Pool Hall:ihih: I want a table but wife said I need to get rid of all my old receiver and speakers:incazzato: I have'nt played in a long time and really enjoy it:(

[GMichael]

I want your coffee ,Im having one that was brew in a coffee maker with store bought grind,Im out of biscuts and tea biscuit are not the same.I need to mask the taste with some Irish Cream.I notice you play Billiard ,does the table have slate or only plywood?Does the ball roll faster on slate table?Do you have a table or do you hustle in Pool Hall:ihih: I want a table but wife said I need to get rid of all my old receiver and speakers:incazzato: I have'nt played in a long time and really enjoy it:(

I like my coffee too. But I don't use Irish Cream to mask the taste as much as to enhance it.

My table has slate. Ball rolls the same on both. But plywood won't stay flat as long. Also, jump shots will not work and masse shots will ruin the table. Ball speed is determained by how hard you hit it and the type of cloth you have. Banks really do come off different when it's raining or damp out. Love my pool table. We turned down a lot of houses based on the fact that there was no room for it.

[PAT.P]

I like my coffee too. But I don't use Irish Cream to mask the taste as much as to enhance it.

My table has slate. Ball rolls the same on both. But plywood won't stay flat as long. Also, jump shots will not work and masse shots will ruin the table. Ball speed is determained by how hard you hit it and the type of cloth you have. Banks really do come off different when it's raining or damp out. Love my pool table. We turned down a lot of houses based on the fact that there was no room for it.Those the cloth color matter as much as the tip or the chalk ?For the cue how many once to you prefer ?I really want to see a pic of that cue stick(I do mean the wood one):ihih:

[GMichael]

Those the cloth color matter as much as the tip or the chalk ?For the cue how many once to you prefer ?I really want to see a pic of that cue stick(I do mean the wood one):ihih:

Well, the color of the cloth itself doesn't really matter. But, whatever color cloth you get, you'll need to get the same or close to the same color chalk. Other wise the chalk marks will make a hugh (easy to see) mess on your table. Then, some colors of chalk do work better than others. And some chalk colors have a die in them that get all over your hands and cloths that won't come out. The best chalk is Master's brand blue. That gives you green to blue cloth to work with. The maroon cloth is great looking but the red chalk is the worst.
The best cloth is a worsted cloth. Simonis is what the pros use but it costs a lot because of the name. I have found that Granito cloth is just as good at a better price. Here is a good source for pool products. http://www.poolndarts.com/index.cfm?CFID=1973813&CFTOKEN=e3e3331513691e79-4CD7704E-D61C-4F06-B3166891A68F1D0F&Fuseaction=Catalog.Product&productID=4840

I don't have any digital pics of my cue. Here is the manufacturer's site: http://schulercue.com/catalog/index.php?sel_category=5

But they don't have mine anymore. One of a kind as it were.

Here is the cue I shoot with the most. It's the digital mega amp vs. the 20w tube amp.

http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_p2.html

[L.J.]

I haven't played in over a year, and what's sad is that I own a table. I still can't get into my garage. :incazzato:

It's just been sitting there, covered up and waiting for me. I play just for fun I guess. I doubt I'm good enough to join a league or anything.

[GMichael]

I haven't played in over a year, and what's sad is that I own a table. I still can't get into my garage. :incazzato:

It's just been sitting there, covered up and waiting for me. I play just for fun I guess. I doubt I'm good enough to join a league or anything.

The APA league is handicapped so anyone can win. Plus there is a handicap limit per night. So teams need low rated players as much as they need high rated ones. If I were to play a match with my wife, I would have to win 7 games before she won 2. Whoever gets to their number first wins the match.

[Armando]

for most of my 61 years on the planet.
61 years, eh?! Funny you should be called a junior member!!!!!!!!!:cornut:

[Armando]

You know, it would be a whole lot more helpfull If you didn't get personal here and actually addressed some of the stuff kex was saying. I mean being a headphone buff and knowing nothing about speakers, I can't really comment on the issues you guys were talking about, but a rational,logical, scientific approach to posts by kex leads me to beleive that It's you who puts up factless, pointless and idiot posts . At least make an attempt to let less informed readers know what you're on about.

[Florian]

You know, it would be a whole lot more helpfull If you didn't get personal here and actually addressed some of the stuff kex was saying. I mean being a headphone buff and knowing nothing about speakers, I can't really comment on the issues you guys were talking about, but a rational,logical, scientific approach to posts by kex leads me to beleive that It's you who puts up factless, pointless and idiot posts . At least make an attempt to let less informed readers know what you're on about.
Its not worth my time, i have written pages, Magazines have used the systems i recommend for over 10 years sometimes as references to judge every single other speaker system commerically avaliable. People will travel across the globe to hear them and i have absolutly no interest in discussing this with a side who has no understanding of it. I help those who want and seek help not to make my point. Besides i have written pages already and you can read up about ribbon technology and look at the Alon Grand Exotica, Infinity IRS-V, Genesis 350SE, 1.1 etc... and find ribbons in all those designs. There is no need to defend anything, i have no need to argue. I only argue when wrong information and heresay is posted. If you have a question then PM me and i will gladly explain to you incl. on the phone why ribbons are superior when it comes to reproducing the music in an uncolored and neutral way. I am just here for fun, i dont get into technical discussions here and see no point in it. Mike A, G and J Michael, Bernd, Y-Sur. and others on this site i stay in touch with. This is fun for me, and not a "convert a box user" station, either people want real music or not.

Cheers

Flo

[swicken]

Here at AR, (where I call myself an "audio enthusiast" anyway), it's not so bad, but in that other place I get no respect at all. Here are the main reasons.

I don't love vinyl. I don't think it is inherently the superior medium. I don't like the rice krispies. I think the big difference from CD is (or was in the past) recording method, and that the best CDs are as good or better than LPs. I don't cherish handling LPs: cleaning them before and after each playing; the tense moments lowering that $$ cartridge on the record, etc..
I don't love tubes. With good recordings, including RBCDs, decent quality solid state sounds better. I'm deeply suspicious that the "musicality", "soul", "depth", "harmonic texture", "wholeness", "continuity", etc., attributed to tubes are really artifacts of higher distortion.
I have no patience for tweaks. My experiments with the likes of power cords have been a wast of time and I certainly have inclination to spend a $1000 each on a set of them despite claims of "huge improvement" from some golden ears. I'm "close minded" about the possible benefit of jars of pebbles and the like.
I'm boggled at the price of very expensive components and doubt the incremental value of $5000+ amps, $10,000+ speakers, not to mention $100,000+ turntables.
But worst of all, I have a utilitarian attitude. That is, good enough is good enough. Tiny improvements and absolute perfection aren't essential to my enjoyment of the hobby.

:16:




I think I like you.

[Feanor]

I think I like you.

Didn't think I was. :thumbsup:

[Armando]

Its not worth my time, i have written pages, Magazines have used the systems i recommend for over 10 years sometimes as references to judge every single other speaker system commerically avaliable. People will travel across the globe to hear them and i have absolutly no interest in discussing this with a side who has no understanding of it. I help those who want and seek help not to make my point. Besides i have written pages already and you can read up about ribbon technology and look at the Alon Grand Exotica, Infinity IRS-V, Genesis 350SE, 1.1 etc... and find ribbons in all those designs. There is no need to defend anything, i have no need to argue. I only argue when wrong information and heresay is posted. If you have a question then PM me and i will gladly explain to you incl. on the phone why ribbons are superior when it comes to reproducing the music in an uncolored and neutral way. I am just here for fun, i dont get into technical discussions here and see no point in it. Mike A, G and J Michael, Bernd, Y-Sur. and others on this site i stay in touch with. This is fun for me, and not a "convert a box user" station, either people want real music or not.

Cheers

Flo

Thats a bit more user friendly! And a lot less modest. Whats your status with headphones?
K, Im gonna count on you to give me the deal with speakers, so try and be a bit unbiased please. I heard some cool Infinity box speakers recently. They were ok. Whats the difference? Which Is better and why and for what type of music. And finally, what according to you is the ultimate rig, price no bar.
Thanks!:5:

[emorphien]

Its not worth my time,
Then either a) don't post or b) don't be surprised when people call you an arrogant snob.

[hifitommy]

vinyl is one of the least expensive things you can do to improve your musical enjoyment, especially if you live in a large metro area. here is a list of a recent stop at record surplus in W.LA:


renee rosnes (piano) w/the danish radio big band cd $5
ray brown-walk on-2cd set, his final trio recordings-$14
nat geo dvd-into the great pyramid-$8

all the rest $1 per disc:

artie shaw-moonglow (didn't have ANY artie.
ellington-new mood indigo
ellington-the intimate...on pablo
best of art tatum-pablo
soul flutes-trust in me-cti-great personnel list-hancocj,gale,carter,g tate,r barretto,etc
mjq-under the jasmin tree
paul horn-inside II
paul horn-inside the great pyramid (promo, xlnt shape,incl booklet)
paul horn-monday,Monday
donald harrison/errence blanchard-black pearl
by goerge-goe cables plays gershwin
pablo live montreaux 77-ray bryant
LA four-scores
cal tjader-breathe easy
bobby mc ferrin blue note EP

at the moment, 12:55am on sun, 4/2, i am listening to the ray brown cd set on my system:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/588.html

a mix of tubes and ss. the soundcraftsmen/bellari is active now but the rbcd playing on the sacdp is just fine sounding at present. the arc will go into service again soon. is see that you also have sace capability which parallels vinyl sound without the accompanying vinyl artifacts.

my point is that one doesnt need to use vinyl to validate audiophile status, which may not be an appellation anyway. being a music lover is what it takes. i dont care which format the music is in if its music that stimulates me. i HAVE had vinyl playback remind me that the right playback of the music can affect its enjoyment though. e.g.:
kraftwerk's autobahn on my former tt-vpi hwIII/sme IV/sumiko talisman vdh. i had never been taken with that music until then. i suppose i should try it with my sota/mmt/fr setup for comparison's sake.

as for the tubes, i wasnt prepared for the difference provided by the arc and how UNtube sounding it is. dynamics, freq extension, and tonal accuracy all floored me. had i not known it was tubes, i wouldnt have believed it.

you have invested in some nice equipment, whether that classifies you as an audiophile or music lover is up to debate. i think youre a music lover that realizes it takes good equipment to bring it home.

[Feanor]

vinyl is one of the least expensive things you can do to improve your musical enjoyment, especially if you live in a large metro area. ....

hifi, I appreciate what you're say about vinyl, and I especially appreciate that you make you suggestion from a music loving rather than a audiophile point of view.

The smaller city where I live doesn't provide much choice of used vinyl, especially not classical or jazz, unfortunately. That's on the one hand; on the other, I would need to upgrade my vinyl playback set up, and, frankly, I'd rather use the budget on other equipment upgrades or else silver dics.

[bobsticks]

, frankly, I'd rather use the budget on other equipment upgrades or else silver dics.

This was just an unfortunate typo, right?

[hifitommy]

that large amounts of money must be spent to equal rbcd playback. sacd maybe but not rbcd. the $500 range would more than be adequate to expose the superiority of vinyl sound. still the non availability of vinyl in your area might be a bit of an impediment.

records by mail can be a decent source for some reasonable pricing, and trips into such cities ans nyc and LA can yield great rewards. its a choice that only you can make.

http://www.recordsbymail.com/

well, if you ever come to LA, let me know and i can give you a list of stores that will keep you busy the entire time youre here.

[Feanor]

that large amounts of money must be spent to equal rbcd playback. sacd maybe but not rbcd. the $500 range would more than be adequate to expose the superiority of vinyl sound. still the non availability of vinyl in your area might be a bit of an impediment.

records by mail can be a decent source for some reasonable pricing, and trips into such cities ans nyc and LA can yield great rewards. its a choice that only you can make.

http://www.recordsbymail.com/

well, if you ever come to LA, let me know and i can give you a list of stores that will keep you busy the entire time youre here.

I'll check out that link and get that list if I'm headed to the LA area. :thumbsup: