Good *cheap* turntable

[dav305z]

For years, I've been listening to my vinyl on the basic Sony turntable you get at Bestbuy. I'm ready for something better, but the problem is that it seems as if there is no middle ground when it comes to turntables.

The Sony cost about $100, and yet it seems that anything I'm told is good goes for about $800, which isn't gonna happen on my budget. Is there something out there for $200 - even something used - that will outperform my Sony significantly enough to justify the purchase?

[emaidel]

Indeed there is. I "won" a Dual 721 turntable on eBay for $150, and it's a far superior turntable to your Sony. It's a direct drive unit, but lacking quartz lock, and is a bit finicky when accurately setting the speed, but has a truly outstanding tonearm, and sounds infinitely better than the far more expensive Denon DP-62L that it replaced.

Dual has several other, and better, models that you can often find on eBay as well. Their CS-5000 is one of the most revered of them all, and one which I wish I had "won" instead of my 721. You might be able to find one of those for around $200, if you're lucky.

I had to thorougly clean my 721 when I received it (it was absolutely filthy!), and I had to change the frayed cables, and toss out the worn-out AT cartrdige that was in it, but it works just fine, and sounds splendid.

You might encounter a large group of vocal opponents of direct drive, many of whom claim the system robs vinyl of deep bass. All I can say to those who'd level such a complaint aginst the 721 is, "What's all that stuff coming out of my subwoofer that frequently rattles the walls of my house?"

I'm sure you'll get lots of other advice, and most of it will be worthwhile. Hope you find this posting of use to you.

[dean_martin]

You might consider holding off on the turntable until you can save a little more (and accumulate some research info.) and instead look at different cartridges. I know this isn't what you asked about and I apologize for going in a different direction, but I wanted to share a recent experience I had with a Technics turntable I got from Circuit City over 10 years ago. It was in storage for several years until Christmas when my teenage son mentioned he wanted a turntable. I thought we would try the old Technics first. I had long since removed the Shure M92e cart that was on it and gave it away. I never liked the Technics/Shure combo. I ordered a Grado Black P-mount cart ($40) for the Technics and WOW I was surprised by the big, full sound and deep bass. Have you been using the same cartridge since you've had the Sony? Is it p-mount or standard (1/2") mount or a Sony proprietary mount? If the Sony tonearm accepts p-mount or standard cartridges then you have some options.

IMO, it will take some time to find the right used turntable for $200 or less. It can be done, but I would suggest familiarizing yourself with brands and models. This would include learning about models that are no longer in production and from some manufacturers no longer in business. Checking out used Duals and Thorens on eBay and Audiogon may be a good place to start, but you'll only be scratching the surface. Then, you have to decide whether you want to roll the dice and buy from an e-seller based on pics and the seller's representations and feedback. You'll also need to make sure the seller knows how to pack & ship a turntable. If you buy used locally, it could take forever to find a good used table depending on where you live. Then, when you do find the right used table, you might have to buy a new cartridge for it. This sounds like a lot of work but the search can be very interesting and fun.

As far as new tables go, you probably need about $400 to get into a belt-drive turntable and cartridge to hear improvements over the Sony. And then the improvements might not be significant enough to justify giving up the convenience of auto-return and auto-shut-off assuming the Sony has those features (and you like'em). It really depends on your own hearing. Some models to consider are the Pro-ject Debut III and Music Hall 2.1. These come with cartridges for around $300 but you can do better than the supplied cart for around $100.

Next you would be looking at tables anywhere from $450 to $650. IMO, this is a solid entry point. Models include the latest RM series entry from Pro-ject, the Music Hall MMF-5, the Rega P2 (if you can still find one) and at the high-end of this bracket - Rega P3. The Pro-Jects and Music Halls come with carts, while the Regas don't. (My estimated price bracket may be off a little because my research is old, but as an example www.upscaleaudio.com still has the Pro-Ject RM-4 with cartridge for $479. I think this model has been replaced by the RM-6 which is probably higher. I'm also going on memory with respect to the $650 price of the Rega P-3. It may be more now. I noticed some import prices going up a couple of years ago when the dollar started dropping.)

[dav305z]

The cartridge direction is interesting. I was concerned that spending money on a better cartridge would be a waste considering the low-end nature of the player - sort of like those kids who put big mufflers on their Civics - but that might be a route to take.

What I've heard about the belt-drive v. direct drive thing is: if you want a low-end player get a belt drive, if you want a high-end player get a belt drive. Direct drive, I was told, serves well for most mid-range players. In any case, that's why I'm asking questions here, to get as many opinions as possible.

[dean_martin]

If I was good at tweeking and minor repairs I'd probably get a used table. I had a used Dual that I got off eBay. It sounded great with the system I had at the time, but just based on age it started to break down mechanically. I also got a Marantz 6100 off eBay which was a nice table, but I traded it (more like gave it away to an old high school teacher of mine). The other response you got from emaidel is certainly relevant and makes sense, but I wouldn't know how to change the frayed cables he mentioned. (If I did, I probably would have my Dual up and running again. Its main problem is a bad short in the captured interconnects.) Some other brands of older tables are Kenwood (they made some interesting tables with plinths that looked like granite), Harman/Kardon (I've read good things about the Ikito tonearms on their tables), Pioneer and Yamaha. Old tables from some of the companies considered mass market today have loyal followers including JVC.

If you're a good DIYer as so many others are on this board, then used makes even more sense.

Here are some links so you can see what's out there in the new tt and cartridge mkt.:

www.lpgear.com - I've read that their slighlty modded Music Hall MMF-2.1 is pretty good. Plus, they have the audio-technica AT95 cart that is supposed to be really good for the money ($50).

www.needledoctor.com - a little pricey, but they have a wide selection and nice pics.

www.audioadvisor.com - mostly Grado cartridges and Music Hall & Thorens tables.

www.amusicdirect.com and www.acousticsounds.com - at these sites you can drool over some really high-end analog gear.

[nightflier]

The one advantage you have is that you still have a functioning table. With that in mind, I would recommend assembling a new table. Since people are always upgrading, and typically buyers aren't going to pay much for incomplete components, you should be able to put together a plinth, platter, tonearm, and cartridge that is much higher end than what you have now for a lot less than what the completed unit would cost. The advantages of doing this are that shipping won't be as risky and you'll learn a whole lot about your table.

If I had more time, that's what I would do.

[dav305z]

Well, I'm getting to know the Sony better, and I'm not liking what I see. The cartridge is integrated, and it seems the tonearm is as well.

Basically, I'm looking at two options. The first is getting a better new player, like the Technics SLBD20D. From what I've read, it's considerably better than the Sony to start with, and then serves as a better starting point for improvement.

The advantage of going this way is that I'd have a new player, and wouldn't have to worry about the unreliablity of older electronics.

The other option is getting something like the Dual CS5000. Of course, the nice thing here is that it's a much nicer player than what you get new for $200. What are some other used turntables to look out for?

Also, what's a good but inexpensive preamp. The Sony's is integrated. I see prices here also go from about $20 to you name it.

[dean_martin]

Also, what's a good but inexpensive preamp. The Sony's is integrated. I see prices here also go from about $20 to you name it.

It really depends on your budget. Radio Shack makes one for around $30-50 that some claim is good, but I don't know. Pro-ject, Music Hall, NAD and Parasound are the usual suspects in the $100-125 range. At $199 is the Bellari VP129 that incorporates a 12AX7 tube. That's pretty cheap for a tubed phono preamp and as a bonus it includes a headphone amp. I just got one and I've been pleased so far. Pro-ject makes an SE version of its phono box at around $250. Creek makes a couple of different models in that price range too. Check the websites given in my earlier post for these fairly common phono preamps.

There are a couple of internet-only specialty companies that make some well-regarded phono amps for not much money (around $75 maybe) many of which are often recommended. I recall 2, but I'm drawing a blank on names right now. (I think one of these manufacturers uses Cornet, Bugle and Trumpet as model names.)

You can even build your own from a kit. Check out this site for an example: www.bottlehead.com.

It looks like you might need the whole setup - table, cartridge and phono pre. Depending on the arm that comes with your table, you may need some suggestions for good cartridge matches. Most arms are either low mass (like the Dual arms) or medium mass
(like the Regas and perhaps Pro-ject/Music Halls). Certain cartridges will perform better depending on the type of arm. You can get plenty of help around here when you get to that point.

[dav305z]

Okay, anyone know about the Dual CS-505? There's one on ebay right in my price range.

Here's some more turntables I've been looking at:

Technics SL-B2

Dual CS-505/6

Thorens TD 150 MK2

I know that's somewhat all over the place. I'm really just trying to get a feel for what performs well what doesn't. I'm also trying to figure out where's the best place to put my money - IE: would I be better off with the Technics and splurging on a cartridge or should I stretch for something in the Thoren's range ($200 all said and done)?

I appreciate any help I can get.

[gimmieshelter31]

check http://members.aol.com/KDresch/audio.net.html check back often.

[jrhymeammo]

Tables you are looking at seem fairly old. i would be concerned on the condtions they are in. Most of the older belt-drive tables do not spin at the correct speed. I do not want to discourage you from buying TT from Ebay since there are millions of honest sellers, but I would be cautious. For that amtter SLBD20D (120 bucks at the Amazon?) looks nice and would be more reliable. Question I have is that how often do you upgrade your gears? Is it possible to save extra $100 by squeezing every corner you can? It's very rewarding for me to save money with compromise and discipline to acquire things I appreciate for longer time. I hate to talk money but yes, I am always $HIT broke.

[dav305z]

Alright, I bit the bullet and sort of followed a hybrid of all your advice. I bought a Technic's SL-220 off of ebay for $50 (shipped) and a new belt for $10. Especially since I'm selling my old Sony, I figure I'll be very nicely under budget. So, what's out there for cartridges on this TT? I beleive it's a standard mount (definitely not P or fixed, the vintagetechnics site just says it's removeable). I'd still be looking for something of reasonable cost, but might be more willing to stretch since I'm below where I planned to spend so far.

[Glen B]

Alright, I bit the bullet and sort of followed a hybrid of all your advice. I bought a Technic's SL-220 off of ebay for $50 (shipped) and a new belt for $10. Especially since I'm selling my old Sony, I figure I'll be very nicely under budget. So, what's out there for cartridges on this TT? I beleive it's a standard mount (definitely not P or fixed, the vintagetechnics site just says it's removeable). I'd still be looking for something of reasonable cost, but might be more willing to stretch since I'm below where I planned to spend so far.

How much are you willing to spend on a catridge ? The Needle Doctor has a wide range of budget cartridges. The Grado and Sumiko are good choices. Others may chime in with personal favorites.

Needle Doctor: http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.402/.f

[hifitommy]

nobody has dicked around with it and it comes with a good cartridge:

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.351/it.A/id.863/.f;jsessionid=ac112b801f4307aa33958c8c48488bbcbe72 1901cdea.e3eTaxiPc3mTe3eLaxyOaxiNai1ynknvrkLOlQzNp 65In0

its just an example of a good tt/cart for affordable money. not $800.

[dean_martin]

I put a $40 Grado Black on a Technics SL-BD20 for my son and it sounds surprisingly good - much better than the Shure M92E that I used with it many years ago.

[dav305z]

I'm about to buy a Grado Black for the table, but wanted to make sure I wasn't chucking something that might be better. The table came with an Empire "TE/X." I'm pretty sure it's nothing special, and it sure sounds crappy, that could be a result of having an 18 year old stylus on it.

[jrhymeammo]

I do not have experince with Grado Black but played with Green for over a year on my Pioneer PL1000, and it was amazing compared to Stanton DJ cartridge I used to use. I would go for Green since QC on Black may be questionable, but I would seriouly doubt that Grado would sell any Green cartridge that didnt meet it's standard as Black. For that assumption, I went w/ Grado Silver instead of Gold. Honestly, I cannot tell much or any difference between Green and Silver. It is hard for me to perform A/B comparision since I only spin the same record only once a day. Sounds pretty anal but I feel like I need to rest my groove for at least 12 hours, and 1 day rule is easier to follow. Plus, this allows me to listen more indepth.

When I purchased my Pro-Ject table, it came with $40 Oyster cartridge and I HATED it. It sounded like Nina Simone was singing through a cardboard tube w/ fabric softer on the end. I could almost her Nina saying "blow it thru the tube, man" like some college kids living in a dorm.

Either Green or Black it would be a great choice, especially for the money.

Have fun

So, for either Green or Black I think you should go for it.

[trollgirl]

...for there are tons of good, vintage turntables out there, and many of them can be had cheaply. My last score was a very nice Dual CS 508 with a Shure M93HE cartridge at a garage sale. It's belt drive (good belt), has a strobe/speed control, has the ULM arm, and this is [maybe] the kicker: FIVE bucks. I'd offer it to you [I prefer my CS 530], but I am loath to ship turntables. If you're ever in Kansas City, I can fix you up.

Laz