Are Bose 301 Speakers the best in there price range?

[ChrisY]

Im interested in purchasing a pair of bookshelf speakers as fronts for a low budget (cheap) small HT system. I found a place here where I can purchase a pair Polk R30s for $120.00 a pair brand new though there not bookshelf speakers as I prefer they'll still work just fine. My neighbor insist that Bose 301s are a better choice and are the best speakers you can find in there price range anywhere. Im just a proud amateur looking for decent sound.

[JohnMichael]

Im interested in purchasing a pair of bookshelf speakers as fronts for a low budget (cheap) small HT system. I found a place here where I can purchase a pair Polk R30s for $120.00 a pair brand new though there not bookshelf speakers as I prefer they'll still work just fine. My neighbor insist that Bose 301s are a better choice and are the best speakers you can find in there price range anywhere. Im just a proud amateur looking for decent sound.

ChrisY listen to your ears and not your neighbor. Bose 301's are one type of speaker and sound but there are many good speakers in the same price range. Polk makes a few as do Paradigm, Infinity, Epos and Athena. www.audioadvisor.com has the Energy C-3 reduced to $299.95 a pair and they would also be a better speaker than Bose. Of course if you like the Bose sound by all means. Listen to as many speakers in your price range as you can.

[N. Abstentia]

Your neigbor sounds very ignorant. The more you read and listen, the more you'll find out that Bose is not a good choice in ANY price range.

I'd look into these first:
http://audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ATHASB1%2E2&product_name=Audition%20B1%2E2%20Speakers%20-%20Black,%20Pair

You should also look at the used market.

[ChrisY]

Thank you kindly fellas.

[kexodusc]

Yikes!

I'm betting that if you visited all the web forums on the internet, you won't find a more disliked speaker brand than Bose.

Some people obviously like them, but if you're looking for sound quality, I don't think I'd be out of line saying you could do better with almost any other speaker at that price point - with the exception of something sold out of a white van.

[ChrisY]

I've read all info given and suggested to me and all I can say is WOW and that Bose will NEVER get an ounce of my interest .I cant afford to be ripped off.

[kgg]

Bose 301 - worst stereo equipment purchase I ever made. They sound slightly better than an old transistor radio.

I'm not completely anti-Bose. their noise-cancelling headphones are great on an airplane.

[Woochifer]

Not by a long shot. Bose products are typically way overpriced for the performance that they deliver. The 301s don't necessarily fall into the overpriced category, because they do deliver more bass than most speakers in their price class (but this is more a case of quantity than quality). That said, they are also not especially accurate in the more critical high and midrange, and their direct/reflecting design messes around with the imaging by creating an artificially large soundstage that lacks locational precision. Plenty of other options out there at the $300 price point that will outperform the 301s.

[Century L100]

I'm not familiar with the 301s at all. In fact, I'm not too familiar with any of their home audio equipment. However, as a pilot, the Bose product I am familiar with is their noise-canclling aviation headset, which is horribly overpriced compared to most other products on the market. I get the impression that a lot of people buy them because of some perceived mystique associated with the Bose nameplate.

It's a quality product, but there are other aviation headsets that provide about 80% of the quality for only 50% of the price.

Just a thought.

[njspeer]

You might be interested in my "$750 Stereo" post below. I purchased a pair of Bose 901s (series 2) for $275. I don't know if they would work for a surround sound setup, but for music they can't be beat at that price range.

People claiming Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price aren't being reasonable. Anything can be a good deal at the right price.Bose bashing is simply a form of contraryism. The masses love Bose, so of course, no self respecting audiophile can like the same thing the man on the street does. You have to keep in mind that these are also the same people who go to wine tastings. People who consider themselves audiophiles feel that bashing Bose is the only way to prove their objectivity to other audiophiles; it's really more of a cultural thing than anything else. They'll tell you all Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price, then turn right around and tell you to buy silver speaker wire. The truth is audiophiles are, for the most part, very gullible and tend to all think the same things, and repeat the same things. Most of them only know what they've read in magazines. Go ask a physicist what they think of audiophiles, and you'll see what I mean. Unless you're trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, you should research it, and just get what you want.

[paul_pci]

If it's a cultural thing, then why is Bose the only speaker company that won't publish their specifications all the while claiming better sound through research. What a crock.

[SlumpBuster]

You might be interested in my "$750 Stereo" post below. I purchased a pair of Bose 901s (series 2) for $275. I don't know if they would work for a surround sound setup, but for music they can't be beat at that price range.

People claiming Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price aren't being reasonable. Anything can be a good deal at the right price.Bose bashing is simply a form of contraryism. The masses love Bose, so of course, no self respecting audiophile can like the same thing the man on the street does. You have to keep in mind that these are also the same people who go to wine tastings. People who consider themselves audiophiles feel that bashing Bose is the only way to prove their objectivity to other audiophiles; it's really more of a cultural thing than anything else. They'll tell you all Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price, then turn right around and tell you to buy silver speaker wire. The truth is audiophiles are, for the most part, very gullible and tend to all think the same things, and repeat the same things. Most of them only know what they've read in magazines. Go ask a physicist what they think of audiophiles, and you'll see what I mean. Unless you're trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, you should research it, and just get what you want.

Those 901s are pretty sweet. I was pretty sure the Series II came with the "instant expert" mod. Looks like they sure do. (insert sarcasm here)

As for trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, that's the pot calling the kettle black. You just posted a thread about your new kick azz system that your all proud of.

Your right about the physics though. Bose 301s exist in an alternate dimension where physics are suspended and a cross over network is not required. Open almost any bose speaker cab and the proof of inferior build, materials and quality is in the pudding.

[njspeer]

If it's a cultural thing, then why is Bose the only speaker company that won't publish their specifications all the while claiming better sound through research. What a crock.

I find it humorous that you challenge my argument by repeating a standard audiophile talking point.

[KaiWinters]

I have used a pair of 301's for a few years when pickings were slim. They were/are a decent pair of speakers and not badly overpriced for the sound but there are better choices.
I suggest Paradigm Atoms. They cost $200 per pair and are vastly superior to the 301's.
The Paradigm Titans are $220 per pair and are superior to the Atoms for little money.
I have a pair of both, still have the 301's too in my basement on a shelf waiting for the yard sale, and love them. They sound fantastic and the cost was very reasonable.

As others have said use your ears to make make your choice in your price range. Bring several favorite music cd's and movie dvd's to sample them over the speakers. Pay attention to the power source the store uses...if it is vastly superior to your receiver the sound you hear at home may be different...room acoustics make a big difference. Always ask what the return policy is so you can test them at home to help make your decision.

Good luck and keep us informed on what you do.

[njspeer]

Those 901s are pretty sweet. I was pretty sure the Series II came with the "instant expert" mod. Looks like they sure do. (insert sarcasm here)

As for trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, that's the pot calling the kettle black. You just posted a thread about your new kick azz system that your all proud of.

Huh? Did you even read my post? I explicitly stated that audiophiles would not like the system.



Your right about the physics though. Bose 301s exist in an alternate dimension where physics are suspended and a cross over network is not required. Open almost any bose speaker cab and the proof of inferior build, materials and quality is in the pudding.

[GMichael]

You might be interested in my "$750 Stereo" post below. I purchased a pair of Bose 901s (series 2) for $275. I don't know if they would work for a surround sound setup, but for music they can't be beat at that price range.

People claiming Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price aren't being reasonable. Anything can be a good deal at the right price.Bose bashing is simply a form of contraryism. The masses love Bose, so of course, no self respecting audiophile can like the same thing the man on the street does. You have to keep in mind that these are also the same people who go to wine tastings. People who consider themselves audiophiles feel that bashing Bose is the only way to prove their objectivity to other audiophiles; it's really more of a cultural thing than anything else. They'll tell you all Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price, then turn right around and tell you to buy silver speaker wire. The truth is audiophiles are, for the most part, very gullible and tend to all think the same things, and repeat the same things. Most of them only know what they've read in magazines. Go ask a physicist what they think of audiophiles, and you'll see what I mean. Unless you're trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, you should research it, and just get what you want.

Uhm, sorry, but "no go" on this.

I think you'll find more beer drinkers here than wine sippers. The cable debate starts up all the time. There are plenty of down to Earth people on this site. They don't go by what magazines tell them. They go listen. In fact, it's the magazines and commercials that have the masses believing that Bose is the best. Bose are just OK. They are the foothills to the Rockies of hi-fi. But not the top of the mountain by any means.
When you buy a speaker, the money you spend goes several places. Some to advertisements, some to the companie's profit, some to research, and some to actually building the speaker. Bose spends more than anyone on research and advertisement. And they have the highest profit margins than almost anyone. That leaves very little left over to actually build them.
I don't want to bash Bose. They make an OK speaker. But far from the best at their price point.

[noddin0ff]

Wow, someones been taking GMichaels troll class!

[Bernd]

I wasn't aware he is teaching again!!!!!!!!

Peace

Bernd:idea:

[njspeer]

Uhm, sorry, but "no go" on this.

I think you'll find more beer drinkers here than wine sippers. The cable debate starts up all the time. There are plenty of down to Earth people on this site. They don't go by what magazines tell them. They go listen. In fact, it's the magazines and commercials that have the masses believing that Bose is the best. Bose are just OK. They are the foothills to the Rockies of hi-fi. But not the top of the mountain by any means.
When you buy a speaker, the money you spend goes several places. Some to advertisements, some to the companie's profit, some to research, and some to actually building the speaker. Bose spends more than anyone on research and advertisement. And they have the highest profit margins than almost anyone. That leaves very little left over to actually build them.
I don't want to bash Bose. They make an OK speaker. But far from the best at their price point.

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

[GMichael]

Wow, someones been taking GMichaels troll class!

I didn't see his name on the roster.

[KaiWinters]

I am a wine snob and freely admit it. My training began in the early 70's. It usually cost me double for a bottle of Annie Green Springs or Boone's(sp) Farms when the "old" guys purchased it for me from the local purveyor of spirits.
Hehehe.

In my case I am a mill worker and prefer Diet Pepsi to most other beverages. I just happen to like music and movies that sound and look good. My budget is lower than most but you would be surprised at what a mill worker in the paper industry can earn.

My Bose 301's did the job I needed them to do at the time and they still sound pretty good. They just do not compare to higher quality speakers...sort of like comparing a Geo Metro to a Nissan Maxima...the Metro can get the job done but the Maxima does it better...enter your own comparison here. They are also at the bottom end of the Bose line I believe though I have not done much looking at them lately.

Seems Bose gets poor marks not just for its' quality of construction materials/cost but for its' marketing hype and lack of comparability to other brands.

[Mike Anderson]

IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party.

Yeah, I can't stand wine and cheese. You're right -- there truly is <i>nothing worse:</i> Having your head sawed off with a rusty shank; plucking your eyes out with a dull spoon; having nails jammed into your eardrums. All of these things are far less painful than have to consume wine and cheese.

Clearly, people who do so are just looking for an excuse to spend money and act like effete liberal snobs.

[GMichael]

I wasn't aware he is teaching again!!!!!!!!

Peace

Bernd:idea:

No one signed up.

[JohnMichael]

Yeah, I can't stand wine and cheese. You're right -- there truly is <i>nothing worse:</i> Having your head sawed off with a rusty shank; plucking your eyes out with a dull spoon; having nails jammed into your eardrums. All of these things are far less painful than have to consume wine and cheese.

Clearly, people who do so are just looking for an excuse to spend money and act like effete liberal snobs.

I resemble that remark. A case of definition of character.

[noddin0ff]

You know, I've got a real gripe about all those beer posers who think a Guiness or a Sam Adams tastes different than a Genesee Cream Ale or a icy cold Schmidt Light. What a crock of delusional bull. Those people will pay a few bucks more to actually drink a 'premium' beer on tap than from an aluminum can...beernuts! Throwing money away I tell you. Don't get me wrong, I like beer. Man, do I like beer. A lot of beer. Beer's really good--at a price point. But if you pay more than $0.35 for 12 oz. in the misguided belief that you can taste better tasting beer molecules you're just a beer snob trying to impress.

[Bernd]

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

I like good wine,beer, music, good food and sex, so what does that make me? No answer requiered.
In your musings you are talking in a negative way about audiophiles. Once you listen to a great set up you would understand what it's all about. I run three systems in my home. All from different areas of development and with a different price tag (budget to high end), and all play music for my enjoyment and all sound good to me.
Just because something sells the most does not make it the best.
It's all about the music.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[GMichael]

Wow! Did I start all this?

[N. Abstentia]

A beer or twelve should make even Bose speakers sound good :ciappa:

[topspeed]

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.
For a NooB, you sure are making a lot of bold accusations here. Just so I'm clear, lemme see if I get this straight:

1) If you don't like Bose, you are a lemming simply following the other audiophiles off the cliff. It has nothing to do with their measured fr containing more peaks and valleys than the Appalachians or build quality ranking right up there with that suit you bought at the 99 Cent Store.

2) All audiophiles are ego driven lunatics interested more in the name than the sound quality.

3) Wine drinkers are drunk audiophiles. I.E. egomaniacal snobs trying to suppress the heathens and unwashed.

I'm not so bold to pidgeonhole the masses with useless labels, although I know what you are...

http://www.motorcars-ltd.com/jewelry/pendant-wrench.jpg

[markw]

IJust because something sells the most does not make it the best.
Unless, of course, you're a shareholder in the company. Sell dem Big Macs with Cheese. ...do you wanna supersize that, sir?

[markw]

You might be interested in my "$750 Stereo" post below. I purchased a pair of Bose 901s (series 2) for $275. I don't know if they would work for a surround sound setup, but for music they can't be beat at that price range.

People claiming Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price aren't being reasonable. Anything can be a good deal at the right price.Bose bashing is simply a form of contraryism. The masses love Bose, so of course, no self respecting audiophile can like the same thing the man on the street does. You have to keep in mind that these are also the same people who go to wine tastings. People who consider themselves audiophiles feel that bashing Bose is the only way to prove their objectivity to other audiophiles; it's really more of a cultural thing than anything else. They'll tell you all Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price, then turn right around and tell you to buy silver speaker wire. The truth is audiophiles are, for the most part, very gullible and tend to all think the same things, and repeat the same things. Most of them only know what they've read in magazines. Go ask a physicist what they think of audiophiles, and you'll see what I mean. Unless you're trying to impress a bunch of audiophiles, you should research it, and just get what you want.but, for their asking price they can be easily bettered.


First off, don't call me an audiophile. I'm just someone who has been playing with these toys since the days of tubes and knows what I like and can spot a value when I see/hear one.

Secondly, "the masses" love bose because they've been inculcated with their advertising everywhere they look, even late night TV and QVC. As far as name recognition goes, Bose wins hands down.

Third, "the masses" just love the cute little boxes and aren't aware of other similar products. ...or they haven't bothered to listen for themselves.

While the 301s are arguably the best speaker value in the Bose lineup, they are, by far, not the "best" overall, unless one figures the panache that the Bose name has on the uninitiated and blissfully ignorant has a high dollar value. A pair of lowly Athena B2s* will, IMNSHO, blow them out of the water but, then again, Athena doesn't post ads in every magazine one is like, to read in the doctor's office or Newsweek.

As far as their sales numbers go, Charlie Browns most likely sells more beef than Ruth's Chris Steak House but does that make them better?

Time to come off that high horse. Would you still be singing praises to the 901's if you paid full price for them?

And, no, you most likely won't be able to easily integrate the 901s into a HT system. I'm sure you'll figure out why later.

*and many others as well

[njspeer]

but, for their asking price they can be easily bettered.

That's probably true. I doubt I would have bought them for full price. But for $275 you have to admit that a lot of speaker.


First off, don't call me an audiophile. I'm just someone who has been playing with these toys since the days of tubes and knows what I like and can spot a value when I see/hear one.

Ok, I can understand that. I wouldn't want to be called an audiophile either. Where I work 'audiophile' is about the same as 'astrologer to the stars.' If you were caught painting the edges of your CDs green you'd get horse whipped.


Secondly, "the masses" love bose because they've been inculcated with their advertising everywhere they look, even late night TV and QVC. As far as name recognition goes, Bose wins hands down.

Well, now you're sounding like an audiophile again, belittling the masses and repeating age old Bose bashing arguments, that are most likely not true. I guess all Ford and GM need to do to keep from going out of business is just increase advertising, and the idiot masses will follow, does that really make sense to you?



Third, "the masses" just love the cute little boxes and aren't aware of other similar products. ...or they haven't bothered to listen for themselves.

While the 301s are arguably the best speaker [v]alue in the Bose lineup, they are, by far, not the "best" overall, unless one figures the panache that the Bose name has on the initiated has a dollar value. A pair of lowly Athena B2s* will, IMNSHO, blow them out of the water but, then again, Athena doesn't post ads in every magazine one is like, to read in the doctor's office or Newsweek.

As far as their sales numbers go, Charlie Browns most likely sells more beef than Ruth's Chris Steak House but does that make them better?

Time to come off that high horse. Would you still be singing praises to the 901's if you paid full price for them?

To be honest I can't see myself paying full price for anything. If I were going to spend $1500 on a pair of speakers, I'd have to re-asses the situation. But you can buy used 901s all day long for the price I paid, so it's really a moot point.


And, no, you most likely won't be able to easily integrate the 901s into a HT system. I'm sure you'll figure out why later.

*and many others as well

Maybe, maybe not. Have you actually tried to integrate a pair of 901s into a surround sound set up? I didn't think so. The 901 users guide says you can; I've heard many say you can't, but I've also heard quite a few say you can. So I don't know I haven't tried, that's why I stated as such.

[SlumpBuster]

Topspeed and MarkW are right on the money.

I gots two problems with the thread.
1. nOOb with his 901s is showing an impressive amount of disdain for a good portion of the AR community: i.e. audiophiles (self proclaimed or otherwise) in search of the next tweak or upgrade. If we're all a bunch of elitist wanks, why did you bother joining the community? Bagging on audiophiles for being elitist snobs is like going to a strip bar and being bummed out that the dancers are kinda skanky. It goes with the territory.

2. The lines of "go listen yourself and decide for for your self" and "if it sounds good to you than, okay" serve a purpose, but not here. These are 301s for christsake. They are crap and alway have been crap. If some poor nOOb says, "my neighbor says the 301 is best in class" we owe it to them to say with all candor, "no, don't even waste your time."

Subjective opinion has its place if someone asks: paradigm vs. B&W, or tyler vs. dynaudio, or Martin Logan vs. Magnapan. In those cases, go listen. If you like it, then okay. But, somethings are objectively without question bad. Budweiser is bad beer. Thunderbird is bad wine. Hungry howies is bad pizza. SlumpBusting is bad sex (hehe :D). And 301s are bad speakers. It doesn't matter that I had some epic rockouts in college to a pair of 301s, they are still simply a bad speaker.

[SlumpBuster]

Well, now you're sounding like an audiophile again, belittling the masses and repeating age old Bose bashing arguments, that are most likely not true. I guess all Ford and GM need to do to keep from going out of business is just increase advertising, and the idiot masses will follow, does that really make sense to you?


No, but neither does buying an obsolete speaker system for $275. But, hey I got a Ford Pinto for you for $500. You have to admit, for $500 thats alot of car.

[njspeer]

No, but neither does buying an obsolete speaker system for $275. But, hey I got a Ford Pinto for you for $500. You have to admit, for $500 thats alot of car.

Obsolete? Last time I check speaker technology has been virtually unchanged in the last 30 years. 99.9% of speakers are a coil attached to some sort of surface area pushing air back and forth, trust me, I was at the store the other day and all the speakers there use this technology.

[squeegy200]

When I was in college, I worked for an audio retailer that was also a Bose authorized reseller. That job provided me with an opportunity that few experience. The retail environment allowed me to compare many different brands of speakers with many different combinations of equipment, material, and sources. I was also priviledged enough to check out items and take them home to audition in my own listening space on my own equipment. During my time I was able to do AB listening tests against other manufacturers speakers including KLH, AR, Dahlquist, Magnapan, Infinity and many others. I spent a lot of time with the Bose 301s, 601s, and 901 but despite that, I never developed a taste for Bose speaker technology.

Im no longer in retail, but I still spend time with friends who own Dali, Sonus Faber, Wilson, Martin Logan, Genelic, Tannoy, and others.

My latest experience with Bose occurred last month when I rebuilt a pair of 901 IIIs for a friend. After replacing all of the surrounds on the 18 individual drivers and cleaning the electronics, I hooked up the EQ to my preamp and auditioned the newly refurbished 901s in my listening room.

They definitely create immense sound pressure levels. And that characteristic Bose signature recalled my memories of the day when I used to sell them in the retail store. They were popular and easy to sell back then. And I found no shortage of buyers today when my friend asked me to put them up for sale on ebay. Its not my cup of tea but the feverish response to my eBay auction would indicate there are still numerous audio enthusiasts who would disagree with me.

It's a strict matter of taste when it comes to these speakers.

[SlumpBuster]

How is the 901 obsolete? Well, if your looking for "Stereo Everywhere," I give you the $99 Insignia 5.1 HTiB:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=cat13506&type=page&skuId=7016702&productId=1099394930087&defurl=false&h=387

BAM! You're obsolete.

[njspeer]

How is the 901 obsolete? Well, if your looking for "Stereo Everywhere," I give you the $99 Insignia 5.1 HTiB:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=cat13506&type=page&skuId=7016702&productId=1099394930087&defurl=false&h=387

BAM! You're obsolete.

He he he, that was a good one. You almost had me for a second.

[ChrisY]

Guys I didnt mean for the question to come all of this, sorry. Jesus Christ.

[paul_pci]

Guys I didnt mean for the question to come all of this, sorry. Jesus Christ.

Don't worry, happens every now and then. You know, like an acne breakout.

[ChrisY]

Don't worry, happens every now and then. You know, like an acne breakout.Yes, a really horrible breakout:)

[markw]

Guys I didnt mean for the question to come all of this, sorry. Jesus Christ.Any question is OK here as long as it's asked with good intentions,, or not as a troll. Your question was not interpreted as a troll and you initially got some honest, humorous, non-insulting, and generally non-judgmental answers in return. That's what should happen in a best case scenario.

It's too bad that a bose fanboy hijacked your thread. Don't let that deter you from visiting here and asking questions in the future. Most of us are regular guys that drink our wine straight out of the box.

[gjpham]

Wow, ppl here don't seem like Bose very much, I'm glad I don't own ones or y'all will chew me out alive.
I've heard alot of comments about Bose, they are over priced and have the best marketing team by far. I personally don't vote against Bose but this coming month, I will have a chhance to listen to one. 1of myoung friend just had Circuit City installed just a surround system itself, $4000 and they really happy with their new set up. Can't wait.

[N. Abstentia]

Wow, ppl here don't seem like Bose very much, I'm glad I don't own ones or y'all will chew me out alive.
I've heard alot of comments about Bose, they are over priced and have the best marketing team by far. I personally don't vote against Bose but this coming month, I will have a chhance to listen to one. 1of myoung friend just had Circuit City installed just a surround system itself, $4000 and they really happy with their new set up. Can't wait.

Well, don't make them feel too bad when you tell them what you think of their system :)

[Woochifer]

Wow, ppl here don't seem like Bose very much, I'm glad I don't own ones or y'all will chew me out alive.
I've heard alot of comments about Bose, they are over priced and have the best marketing team by far. I personally don't vote against Bose but this coming month, I will have a chhance to listen to one. 1of myoung friend just had Circuit City installed just a surround system itself, $4000 and they really happy with their new set up. Can't wait.

Sounds like one of them Bose Lifestyle systems, which are probably about 3X overpriced for the performance that they deliver. Compared to TV speakers, these systems will sound a lot better. But, compared to just about any other home theater setup that shoppers can piece together in that price range, the Bose system will sound noticeably inferior in just about every facet.

Bose is the only audio company out there that pays for TV ads and infomercials, so they have a built in advantage with name recognition, but those marketing costs get built into the product price. Subjectively, they can sound good if the point of reference is the TV speaker. However, if the comparison is done with a component-based home theater setup, then the Bose systems will suffer by comparison.

Just as an example, the Bose 3-2-1 system costs $1,000-$1,500 and is advertised ad nauseum on TV. What they don't tell you is that the virtual surround function on that system is included with EVERY other home theater receiver on the market, so there's nothing innovative about the product. And the proprietary cabling and limited external connections make it difficult at best to upgrade the system without tossing the entire system out. Also, with the 3-2-1 system, you're forever limited to two speakers, since there's no multichannel amplification provided. With a $1,000 budget, you can easily buy a $250 5.1 receiver, with a $350 pair of bookshelf speakers and a $400 subwoofer, and the sound quality will absolutely blow away the Bose system, provide much better flexibility for system upgrades, AND allow you to incrementally add on for a multichannel 5.1 setup.

[canuckle]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

There's so many things wrong there. The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point. Their price point is 5 times higher than comparable speakers from other manufacturers. They are built out of cheap crap materials and paper cones. $14 goes into components and $100 into marketting. The marketting is why Bose doesn't go out of business, not the components. People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

You keep jumping back to the defensive position that your ancient 901's for $275 are a good deal. But you might want to note that this thread is not about you or your garage sale purchases. Someone asked others' opinions on a pair of new 301s as the best speakers available for the money. They are not. They're not the best speakers for half the money. That's what the thread is about and people should be free to pass on that advice to someone who's considering a truly terrible purchase. Enjoy your 901s. Don't try to slag off people who appreciate a higher standard of quality and want to let someone know that they can also have good sound for less money.

[njspeer]

There's so many things wrong there. The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point. Their price point is 5 times higher than comparable speakers from other manufacturers. They are built out of cheap crap materials and paper cones. $14 goes into components and $100 into marketting. The marketting is why Bose doesn't go out of business, not the components. People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium. Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true. The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ABEDDBEAM

or this

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/marigo-labs-signature-3d-mat-7-2005.html

or

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina28.htm

or

http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm


Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

[GMichael]

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium. Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true. The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ABEDDBEAM

or this

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/marigo-labs-signature-3d-mat-7-2005.html

or

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina28.htm

or

http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm


Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

I don't think that you will ever understand the truth. Good luck in life.

[canuckle]

The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this: (blah blah) Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

Firstly, I don't know of any audiophiles concerned with value really. They care about sound. Good sound. Something you don't have. Something people can have for a lot cheaper than Bose can give them for a ton more money.

I'd be happy to make fun of any of those products you list. Fortunately, people haven't been fooled into thinking that they're any good so there's little point. And the fact they exist doesn't mean Bose is quality so mentioning them is rather pointless. And the fact that Bose has existed for a long time is also not a sign that they're quality. If you want an example of how marketting can work as a long-term business strategy, have a look at Bose... they're the quintessential example.

Nice of you to group everybody into one group and tell us how they think though, thanks. Also good of you to ignore everyone's comments about black and white truths. No answers for the fact that they're plastic boxes with paper cones and low-grade wiring? No answers for Bose's mysterious absence of publishing any statistics on any of their products anywhere ever? Frequency response graphs published by third parties that show anything but flat frequency response, any idea how that is just in audiophile's imaginations? No comments on the mess that is Bose stereo imaging? Maybe until you can explain how all that crap wrapped up in a box makes good sound you want to bow out of the discussion. Oh no wait, I already know your answer... "that's just what audiophiles say!" Excellent, constructive, brilliant, good job! :D

[njspeer]

I don't think that you will ever understand the truth. Good luck in life.

Maybe, but you'll still never catch me paying $2000 for a wooden knob. LOL!

BTW, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice," crunk up the volume on the ol' Sansui, and my vintage 901s sound good - really good.

[Woochifer]

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium.

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?


Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true.

Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.


The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period).

The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.


If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

......

Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.



Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

[njspeer]

Firstly, I don't know of any audiophiles concerned with value really. They care about sound. Good sound. Something you don't have. Something people can have for a lot cheaper than Bose can give them for a ton more money.

Is it me, or do these sentences contradict each other? Anyway, they definitely contradict what you said in you're other post. See below.



[from prior post]The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point.


I guess we can just make it up as we go along.


Nice of you to group everybody into one group and tell us how they think though, thanks.

Hey, it's called anthropology. But wait. Didn't we just group everybody into one group in our last post? Let's find out. See below.


[from prior post]People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

He he. Like I said: we can just make it up as we go along.

[GMichael]

Maybe, but you'll still never catch me paying $2000 for a wooden knob. LOL!

BTW, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice," crunk up the volume on the ol' Sansui, and my vintage 901s sound good - really good.

Repeat after me. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.

[GMichael]

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?



Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.



The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.



Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

This all makes perfect sense. So I predict that he will not understand any of it. He will twist it all up so that it will have a new meaning. Here's what he will read, "Bose is great and everyone here just says that it isn't because we are a bunch of sheep following each other around sniffing each other's butts." We all just spend thousands on wooden knobs and sonic snott.
Forget the facts. They don't mean a thing to him.

[L.J.]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile :)

[GMichael]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile :)

Almost like the good ol' days huh? Can you pass me the popcorn?

[noddin0ff]

Give the guy an advanced degree in trolling!

[GMichael]

Give the guy an advanced degree in trolling!

Not until he brings his teacher an apple.

[Resident Loser]

...when Polk's were considered an "insider" speaker...spoken of with reverence and in hushed tones in darkened hallways...but...out comes the advertising and mass-market sales from BB and CC and whoever...get my drift...so in some respect our Bose fan is correct...the more sales nearly anything gets seems inversely proportional to the opinion of the audiopile community...

Are Bose products overpriced?

Yes...someone has to pay for all the advertising...think along the lines of "free" tee-vee...every jar of tomato sauce or 6-pack of beer could be much cheaper if they weren't advertised so heavily...

Do many of their products fail (Lifestyle sytems, etc.) at any sort of integration with standard RCA-terminated gear?

Yes...but they are marketed and sold to folks who want quick and clean installation/enjoyment...they achieve the corporate goal in spades...

I personally have a problem with closed-end systems AND the operating parameters of their bass modules AND non-Bose single summing subs in general.

Are they the best?

By someone's definition they are...name recognition is priceless...

The 301s are a decent speaker...but...they do have the sonic signature of the Bose Direct/Reflecting speakers...which is not the same as any direct radiator. Can't be...their design and intent are quite far apart in practice. Comparison of the two is the proverbial "apples/oranges" IMO. If you own 901s as fronts, the 301s make perfect rears...the 301s as fronts, approximate the sound of the 901s, but with a lesser degree of success of the "stereo everywhere" presentation...

As an aside, 901s can be used as a part of an HT setup only if the AV reciever has a true "tape mon" ckt or if one plans to use outboard power amps...the 901 EQ requires either one for the speakers to operate properly...Bose can supply compatibility info on request.

IMNSHO, those used to the direct-radiator types of loudspeakers, will never be happy with the Bose sound or presentation and quite converesly, once you identify with the qualities of a properly set-up set of 901s and listen into them, nearly everything else fails by comparison...feel free to make all the insulting remarks you might care to...DQ-10s were in the running, but there was a sonic asymmetry (which I later found out was subsequently rectified with the mirror-image mod) that disturbed me....About 20yrs. ago I heard an electrostatic that compared somewhat favorably, but I detected a distinct disconnect, if you will, between the dynamic woofer and the 'stat panels...plus they required too much room and too much $$$.

Out of curiosity, how many manufacturers would sell you the latest version of an item for the same price that you paid 20yrs ago. When my 301-IIs fell victim to foam-rot. that was the offer from Bose when I inquired about replacement parts...seems like pretty attentive customer support to me. As I recall, Skeptic had a similar offer re: his 901s...

My 901-IIs (MSRP $525/pr) are now over 30yrs. old...that says something...I haven't grown weary of them and they still do what they're supposed to...quite well I might add. Bass response is second-to-none in my highly anecdotal opinion. I rarely admit to owning them...take a wild guess as to why that might be...

Would I buy them again?

Well, mine were the last acoustic-suspension design before they went to the ported acoustic matrix...I understand the newer vintages aren't quite up-to-snuff in some regards and listening in a showroom leaves lots to be desired...I really would have to bring them home to a suitable environment for a fair evaluation...My response would be a definite I dunno'...problem is, I've not heard anything else in recent memory that I found acceptable...and yes, I do listen, I'm not deaf and, being a musician, I know what live sounds like...but then again recordings, more often than not, rarely give the same sonic cues that one gets in a live presentation, so that might be a moot point.

Are they for everyone? No...can't think of anything that satisfies everyone...but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

jimHJJ(...which is why I hardly make specific recommendations and suggest folks listen for themselves...)

[emaidel]

I too am a 'wine snob" and proud of it. I also intensely dislike Bose, but I'm not a fan of JBL either, so what does that make me?

Comparing one's tastes in audio to one's ability to distinguish subtle differences in wines is ludicrous, and shows such posters' ignorance of what makes a wine truly good. Despite comments to the contrary, price is very much an object, and I've never spend thousands of dollars for a single bottle of wine, and never will, but I can certainly tell the difference between a mediocre and a fine red wine. I consider touring the wine country in Northern California one of life's supreme enjoyments, and one in which, if people are genuinely interested, a lot can be learned.

The fact that many wineries sell lots of cheaper, less substantial wines is no indication of that winery's overall quality. Indeed, the famous Robert Mondavi winery was recently sold due to serious financial issues due to the younger Mondavi brothers' insistence on concentrating on rotgut and not the fine wines that established the winery's original fine reputation.

Many fine wines are indeed overpriced, and the same can be said for many a Bose product (and has in fact been said in several posts to this thread). Ridiculing those of us who enjoy the experience of wine-tasting, and comparing us to audio spendthrifts is pointless and silly.

[topspeed]

Jim,

There are actually very few posts where members are proclaiming the 901's or 301's as outright garbage. We aren't calling out Bose so much as calling out njspeer. At best, he's a tool, at worst a troll. Blanket statements, bold generalizations, and a complete lack of respect buoyed by a dearth of facts. He has found it convenient to lump anyone that doesn't agree with him into one big cauldron of audio voodoo and snake oil.

Skep loved his 901's and even modified them quite heavily w/ supertweeters IIRC. No one had a problem with him or his speaks. It's the poster, not the subject.

[topspeed]

Indeed, the famous Robert Mondavi winery was recently sold due to serious financial issues due to the younger Mondavi brothers' insistence on concentrating on rotgut and not the fine wines that established the winery's original fine reputation.
Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity. If you are a wine aficionado, you'll find this article enlightening as well as heartbreaking.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2005/04/01/8256045/index.htm

It's sad because without Mondavi, there would be no Napa Valley as we know it. Most of the great winemakers were at some time involved with Mondavi Wineries in some shape or form.

One of my favorite memories is of a week long vacation whereas my girlfriend (now wife) and I drove my Saab convertible up through Napa following the Russian River to Mendocino. We must have stopped at a coupla' dozen wineries and microbreweries as we made our way north. However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow :).

[Resident Loser]

...most of the time, negative generalities abound re: Bose and within related threads ...and most of the time, I keep my mouth shut (or more appropriately put on a pair of mittens)...I mean, what's the use...but I do see the same type of rhetoric more often than not, and when njspeer started shoveling the same sort of generalized negativity re: his particular agenda, I found it, and some of the reactions to it, amusing...

I mean it really gets old to see the same ol' Bose-bashing or comments on the gullibility/deafness of the typical Bose customer..."lumped" if you will...

Obviously, there are some aspects of Bose products that leave a lot to be desired, and I neither suggest nor defend them...in fact, I'm more apt to point out their shortcomings...Every so often, I simply feel compelled to provide some defensive statements (as anecdotal as the may be) against the constant onslaught of "...no highs, no lows, it must be Bose..." or "Blose" or how the 901s are obsolete(?) or how bein' half-in-the-bag makes 'em sound good...that sorta' thing. I do try consider the source, keeping it in some context, and I do get a sense of self-satisfaction that the ones who are the most vocal are quite lucky that breathing is a function of the autonomic nervous system...

Hmmm...a nice ripe Stilton with some walnuts and perhaps a glass of Olorosso...or a beren auslese...

jimHJJ(...too bad I no longer indulge in the fermented grape...)

[GMichael]

...most of the time, negative generalities abound re: Bose and within related threads ...and most of the time, I keep my mouth shut (or more appropriately put on a pair of mittens)...I mean, what's the use...but I do see the same type of rhetoric more often than not, and when njspeer started shoveling the same sort of generalized negativity re: his particular agenda, I found it, and some of the reactions to it, amusing...

I mean it really gets old to see the same ol' Bose-bashing or comments on the gullibility/deafness of the typical Bose customer..."lumped" if you will...

Obviously, there are some aspects of Bose products that leave a lot to be desired, and I neither suggest nor defend them...in fact, I'm more apt to point out their shortcomings...Every so often, I simply feel compelled to provide some defensive statements (as anecdotal as the may be) against the constant onslaught of "...no highs, no lows, it must be Bose..." or "Blose" or how the 901s are obsolete(?) or how bein' half-in-the-bag makes 'em sound good...that sorta' thing. I do try consider the source, keeping it in some context, and I do get a sense of self-satisfaction that the ones who are the most vocal are quite lucky that breathing is a function of the autonomic nervous system...

Hmmm...a nice ripe Stilton with some walnuts and perhaps a glass of Olorosso...or a beren auslese...

jimHJJ(...too bad I no longer indulge in the fermented grape...)

My point was that I don't have a problem with Bose. I even own some Bose. When I posted as such he glossed right over that and went into twisting words out of context to mean something totaly different than what was being said.

I don't mind Bose. Still think that they are charging too much, but they are OK.

But a troll is a troll is a troll. I had fun feeding him. I know, that makes me a baaaaaaaaaaaad poster. But it was still fun.

hehehehehehehehehe

[paul_pci]

Redtail is one of my favorite beers.



Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity. If you are a wine aficionado, you'll find this article enlightening as well as heartbreaking.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2005/04/01/8256045/index.htm

It's sad because without Mondavi, there would be no Napa Valley as we know it. Most of the great winemakers were at some time involved with Mondavi Wineries in some shape or form.

One of my favorite memories is of a week long vacation whereas my girlfriend (now wife) and I drove my Saab convertible up through Napa following the Russian River to Mendocino. We must have stopped at a coupla' dozen wineries and microbreweries as we made our way north. However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow :).

[noddin0ff]

However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow :).

Ok, I'm jealous!

[KaiWinters]

Just mention the name "BOSE" and the fingers begin to fly on the keyboard. God pity the "hunt and peck" person lol.

No matter the forum just mention "My friend is considering the BOSE...insert what you want...is this a good buy"? in a thread and the fur starts flying.

No other brand brings out such responses.

Very interesting in general though calling people names because of their choices, etc. is rather rude and tends to push people away rather than provide insight and a learning experience.

I prefer to think of myself as an "audio enthusiast" rather than an audiophile. It works for me. Been one since I bought my first "FM Converter" for my car in 1973. Still customize my cars system as well as my wifes, sons and daughters...same goes for my home system. But it is all on a budget I can afford, products that I can hear/compare, meet my needs/desires and puts me in the dog house for only brief periods.

I have a pair of old 301's and they did what I needed them to do for the money I could spend and the speakers available to me at the time.

I definately would not spend the money on the Bose Lifestyle systems knowing what I can get for less and the better sound but I would not disrespect someone that does like and buy such a system and think its great. It is all a matter of taste.

[ChrisY]

Thank you everyone for your opinions . I went with Polks as I find them inexpensive and very pleasing to my ears and Polk has an incredible website. Thank you kindly everyone.

[JeffKnob]

This argument sounds like our last presidential election. There was tons of proof that Bush (Bose) was horrible but because of propoganda (marketing), people were molded to think he was the best there ever was.

[GMichael]

Thank you everyone for your opinions . I went with Polks as I find them inexpensive and very pleasing to my ears and Polk has an incredible website. Thank you kindly everyone.

Enjoy. I'm sure the Polks will make you happy. What model did you go with?

[ChrisY]

Enjoy. I'm sure the Polks will make you happy. What model did you go with? Polk R 30s which are the cheapest floorstanding speakers by Polk thus far and at 35 bucks (clearance) each there perfect for my small ,cheap but decnt sounding 5.1 system.

[GMichael]

Polk R 30s which are the cheapest floorstanding speakers by Polk thus far and at 35 bucks (clearance) each there perfect for my small ,cheap but decnt sounding 5.1 system.

Wow! I did a quick check on Google. They look great. Great deal & great reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/polk-audio/floorstanding-speakers/PRD_171947_1594crx.aspx

What's next for your upgrade list? I want a new sub.

[emaidel]

Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity..

You are correct, but then so too am I. Mondavi's downfall incorporated a number of different mistakes, and all of them were very well documented in a recent issue of The Wine Spectator.

I too have experienced the joy of sampling different (and "reserve") wines, accompanied by delicious pates, cheeses and so forth, and that's one of the reasons I stated as I did how much I enjoy a trip through the wine country.

I find that the more I learn about wine, the less I actually know. With audio, I too consider myself an "audio enthusiast," as opposed to an "audiophile," but thoroughly dislike anything Bose. When I first toured the Mondavi winery, and saw all of its sparkling, metal storage tanks, as opposed to the oak ones used by others, my traveling companion called the facility "The Bose of the wine industry."

[ChrisY]

Wow! I did a quick check on Google. They look great. Great deal & great reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/polk-audio/floorstanding-speakers/PRD_171947_1594crx.aspx

What's next for your upgrade list? I want a new sub.
Well im not sure whats next for awhile, my girlfriend is putting a cigarette out on my new fascination but i'll keep you posted.:)

[paul_pci]

Well im not sure whats next for awhile, my girlfriend is putting a cigarette out on my new fascination but i'll keep you posted.:)

That happens all too often. Stash some money away and continue to expose yourself to quality audio equipment. Good luck with the Polks. They were my first speakers.

[KaiWinters]

Good for you ChrisY.
Always listen to the "ears"...what makes them happy is what you take home regardless of other peoples reviews and suggestions.

[canuckle]

I went with Polks as I find them inexpensive and very pleasing to my ears and Polk has an incredible website.

Excellent choice! I've always liked Polk sound :) I think you'll be extremely happy with what you got.

[Florian]

If you like the BOSE sound thats is cool! If you like the sound of a B&W or Pardigm is also cool. Who cares?!? For me a little Paradigm and B&W or BOSE all sound the same, and thats fine too.

[GMichael]

Well im not sure whats next for awhile, my girlfriend is putting a cigarette out on my new fascination but i'll keep you posted.:)

Huh? Eeeeyyyyouch!

[GMichael]

If you like the BOSE sound thats is cool! If you like the sound of a B&W or Pardigm is also cool. Who cares?!? For me a little Paradigm and B&W or BOSE all sound the same, and thats fine too.

Hi Flo,

How are you? Got any new goodies on the way? Planners etc. are still a little out of my budget right now. You'll have to do the listening for me.

[matt39]

Hey Chris,
Great choice on the R30's and an even better deal! I listened to them several times but not before I had already picked up a set of Rti38's in a deal similar to yours. Should hold you for some time and you can also use them when you're ready to upgrade your HT. Enjoy your new system.
Gary

[ChrisY]

If you like the BOSE sound thats is cool! If you like the sound of a B&W or Pardigm is also cool. Who cares?!? For me a little Paradigm and B&W or BOSE all sound the same, and thats fine too.Thanx everyone for your congrats, im very please with these for my introduction into HT but was curious about Florians comment, do Paradigm,B&W and Bose really sound the same?:confused5:

[GMichael]

Thanx everyone for your congrats, im very please with these for my introduction into HT but was curious about Florians comment, do Paradigm,B&W and Bose really sound the same?:confused5:

I would guess no. I haven't heard them myself. But.. You see, Flo has this incredible system. He likes panel speakers. They don't have speaker cones or boxes. Instead they have a thin material (some types are Mylar film, others tin, other use others etc...) stretched from top to bottom. Instead of a few speaker coils, they have rows & rows of electro magnets that move the thin film back & forth to create the sound. This is really the simple explanation. But anyway, these are the speakers he likes and has spent mega bucks on them and the amps to drive them. I heard a few a while back and was very impressed. I could see why he would never want to go back to boxes again. Just not in my budget yet.

[paul_pci]

Thanx everyone for your congrats, im very please with these for my introduction into HT but was curious about Florians comment, do Paradigm,B&W and Bose really sound the same?:confused5:

No, it's just that since the bose basing has died down, Mr. I have the money to know it all, wants to start a new flame war.

[topspeed]

Thanx everyone for your congrats, im very please with these for my introduction into HT but was curious about Florians comment, do Paradigm,B&W and Bose really sound the same?:confused5:
Does a M3 drive like a Yaris? They are both two door coupes, have four wheels, engines, et.al. Therefore, they must drive the same :rolleyes:.

This is the same astute deduction Flo applies to any speaker that isn't a planar and has met some commercial success. Nevermind that the vast majority of classical recordings are mastered on B&W's and some of the most prestigious studios in the world, including Skywalker Sound, utilize them. Forget that both Paradigm and B&W have been very well reviewed, both professionally or otherwise. Better still, go down to a audio salon and come to your own conclusions. It's not like they are hard to find.

[wayner86]

Flo, do you feel its necessary to belittle the HT/audio equipment that some of us enjoy and work so hard to put together, every chance you get? I worked pretty hard to buy my "little" paradigms, and i actually enjoy them, quite a bit to be honest. I'm comfortable with the fact that my audio system isn't the best or even close to it, but im pretty damn happy with it. Theres no need to make people feel like complete sacks of $hit about something they spent a small fortune on. If you feel the need to bash certain people in particular, do it in the Steel Cage, people comming to this site to read and look for advice might get caught up in this convoluted Bull$****.

Peace,

Wayne

[SlumpBuster]

Ahhh.. the irony. :D Here we are all bashing on some Bose and along comes Flo and is quickly accused of bashing on other lesser systems. Its all a matter of scale and perspective. I have a Paradigm and Velodyne system and bash on Bose. Flo has Appogee and bashes on Paradigm. We are both guilty of the same offense. Hell, I'm worse. I say "Don't buy Bose, even if you think you like it, because you really don't like it, you just don't know it yet." Flo at least says if you like Bose, then okay. I think he is just suggesting that any dispute among the box dwellers as to whose got the best box is irrelevant, because he's moved onto a higher level.

[emaidel]

Many of us (myself included) enjoy "Bose-bashing," because we genuinely dislike the level of performance Bose speakers offer, and, more importantly, feel that Bose products offer a relatively poor value for the money. Nevertheless, Bose has done, and continues to do a brilliant marketing campaign to promote its products, and to provide dealer support no other loudspeaker manufacturer ever did. This was especially true in the late 70s and early 80's, when dealers had to provide a complete wall in their stores dedicated soley to Bose, but were rewarded with promotional material and factory support heretofore unmatched (and still unmatched) in the industry.

I own a Bose "Wave" CD/radio. The only reason I do, is that it was free as part of a promotion between Bose and Nissan one year when I leased a Nissan Pathfinder. It's a nice radio, and sounds pretty amazing for the plastic box that it actually is, but is it worth $1,200??? Not in the slightest.

[GMichael]

I still like my Bose anyhow.

[KaiWinters]

Paradigm, B+W and Bose all sound alike?
Wow talk about either tone deaf or so hoity toity that your inability to recognize anything below your astral plane is simply remarkable.

[Woochifer]

Thanx everyone for your congrats, im very please with these for my introduction into HT but was curious about Florians comment, do Paradigm,B&W and Bose really sound the same?:confused5:

Consider that he cannot tell the difference between a Paradigm, B&W, and Bose, yet has gone on record as being able to distinguish between when a digital-to-analog converter (DAC) is placed on a stone base versus a wood base. That, and differences between cables, transports, speaker position changes of 5cm, etc.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=126251&postcount=28

Those changes audibly affect the sound, but Paradigm, B&W, and Bose are indistinguishable in Florianspeak. Use your own ears and decide whether it's easier to distinguish auditory differences between speakers or the base material that a DAC is mounted on. But, just remember that Florian's never wrong (or at least claims as such)! :rolleyes:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=134895&postcount=5

[Florian]

Wow, i guess having a personal opinion really is not welcome here. I never stated a fact about the sound of B&W Paradigm etc.. i simply said that to me they all sound the same. Live with it!

PS: Yes i do have another pair of DIVAS coming next month from a Italien collector incl. the digital active crossover. And yes before you ask, next week i will present my 3500$ crossover.....snoby? No, just a fact. And to quote a new member on this site who sent me a PM


However having said that, I do agree with your approach to minimizing as much additional coloration as possible to extract all the (intended) information from an audio source. I congratulate you on having the means and technical knowledge to build your dream system. Many of us would like to be in the same position but are not and therefore drag down others who are.

I believe that the purpose of this forum is to share knowledge and you obviousely have experiences to share with someone (like me) who is relatively new to all this. Ignore the naysayers and just f_*** 'em.

[Resident Loser]

Wow, i guess having a personal opinion really is not welcome here. I never stated a fact about the sound of B&W Paradigm etc.. i simply said that to me they all sound the same. Live with it!...And to quote a new member on this site who sent me a PM

Gotta' love it...I suppose next time anyone says CDPs or amps or anything for that matter, sound the same, we won't see any of your ego-centric rants...

And a word of caution to your secret admirer..."technical knowledge" oh puh-leese...I've said it before, click on his name, view his posts...understand what you are defending...last time I looked "condescending" wasn't in the glossary of technical skills...

I'm particularly fond of this thread's examples of his "knowledge" and his ability (or lack thereof) to respond to reasonable "technical" argument:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=15878

Bypassing a few crossover components doesn't qualify as any sort of expertise...

jimHJJ(...talk about misplaced faith...)

[jamison]

I have found through experiences with my brotherinlaw that a lot of people who buy BOSE want an appliance...he wanted to buy speakerrs and be done with it.. my brotherinlaw is someone who isnt capable of doing things for himself such as changing the oil in his car or tuning up his lawnmower. in fact the last time i went over to my sisters house, i needed to work on something for her and i couldnt even find a wrench.. they had several screwdrivers and thats it
my bro in law doesnt care about specifications like frequency response, Dynamic Range or SPL ratings..his biggest criteria was buying a name everyone knows about.
my brotherinlaw bought his all BOSE system at a cheap price... or so he claims, he didnt listen to any other brands. He has the 301 in front on the built in entertainment center, a small cheapo center speaker and cheapo surrounds.. they rarely listen to it.. only occasionally for a movie now and then and at christmas time they have background music playing. Its funny to because in their circle of friends everyone is kinda snobbish and when they are over they all go gagga over bose.. its more snob appeal than anything..One of his friends asked me what kind of soundsystem i had... he said jeez you should trade it in and get a good system like bose.. I told him my system will smoke anything Bose makes, i told him how my speakers have rubber surrounds on the woofers, how they have thick wiring and better internal bracing and 5 way binding posts.. basically it was conversation over.. this guy did not want to hear about specs at all. For me a better constructed speaker = better quality sound not a better name.. oh well guess ill never win this argument

[Bernd]

I have found through experiences with my brotherinlaw that a lot of people who buy BOSE want an appliance...he wanted to buy speakerrs and be done with it.. my brotherinlaw is someone who isnt capable of doing things for himself such as changing the oil in his car or tuning up his lawnmower. in fact the last time i went over to my sisters house, i needed to work on something for her and i couldnt even find a wrench.. they had several screwdrivers and thats it
my bro in law doesnt care about specifications like frequency response, Dynamic Range or SPL ratings..his biggest criteria was buying a name everyone knows about.
my brotherinlaw bought his all BOSE system at a cheap price... or so he claims, he didnt listen to any other brands. He has the 301 in front on the built in entertainment center, a small cheapo center speaker and cheapo surrounds.. they rarely listen to it.. only occasionally for a movie now and then and at christmas time they have background music playing. Its funny to because in their circle of friends everyone is kinda snobbish and when they are over they all go gagga over bose.. its more snob appeal than anything..One of his friends asked me what kind of soundsystem i had... he said jeez you should trade it in and get a good system like bose.. I told him my system will smoke anything Bose makes, i told him how my speakers have rubber surrounds on the woofers, how they have thick wiring and better internal bracing and 5 way binding posts.. basically it was conversation over.. this guy did not want to hear about specs at all. For me a better constructed speaker = better quality sound not a better name.. oh well guess ill never win this argument

Good response. Made me laugh - thanks. And believe me there are many thousands like your brother in law. You're right, you will never win that argument.
BTW, I have a wealthy friend ,I go shooting with, and he is so proud of his little Bose cubes and the amazing sound they create, I want to cry.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[topspeed]

Great post Jamison. :thumbsup:

Slumpster,
I agree with everything you say except for the fact that Flo has "moved onto a higher level" as opposed to "box dwellers." Admittedly, I haven't heard his Apogees, and considering the fact they went the way of the DoDo bird twenty odd years ago, I doubt many others have either. However, I have heard big panels from Maggie and ML and I wouldn't pick either over a "box" speaker such as the WP7 or VR9. I'm not saying they are bad, in fact they were quite good and I can see why people love panels. But for me, I preferred the sound of the Wilsons and Von Schweikerts. Being a panel owner does not automatically mean you have moved onto a higher plane (pun intended).

[Resident Loser]

my bro in law doesnt care about specifications like frequency response, Dynamic Range or SPL ratings..his biggest criteria was buying a name everyone knows about.

Out of curiosity, we know the nominal FR of human hearing is 20Hz-20kHz, what part of that is actually heard, on average, in practice?

How many recordings actually have bass fundamentals that go anywhere near 20Hz?

Due to their design, there is no way to really correlate any direct radiator design to that of Bose direct/reflecting systems...apples and oranges...Personal preference is a whole 'nother thing...

Dynamic range? I'm sure you know the definition of the term...the difference between the loudest and softest sound produced...more a product of the program material and the recording method than of anything else...more applicable to an amplifiers noise-floor and S/N ratio than to a loudspeaker...Are there figures that show a particular loudspeaker excels in reproducing that ratio? I haven't seen any that specify a spec for dynamic range...efficiency, yes...sensitivity, yes...

SPL ratings? In reference to what? Measured FR? See the above design considerations...or do you mean can they play loud?

Re: purchase preference...how many cars, or clothing, houses or even spouses are chosen because of name brand recognition, price or looks? Nothing unusual...


... i told him how my speakers have rubber surrounds on the woofers, how they have thick wiring and better internal bracing and 5 way binding posts..

Materials? Some say paper...some say carbon-fiber...still others say Kevlar...and there are those who say cones are second-rate...Thick wire? Internal? External?...simply a product of design...you can take the theoretical "best" of everything, put it together and it can sound like cr@p! 5-way BPs...ummm, and this means what? It's like the mnfrs. who provide bi-wiring terms to do nothing more than meet market demands than for any sonic reason.

Bose builds a well-researched (on many levels) and well-built product line that fits within their corporate, and their customers, expectations.

There are any number of legitimate factors to point to, to dissuade a potential buyer, yours have been none of them; in fact, their simplicity and the plug'n'play aspect is one of their strong selling points.

I mean there are many folks who will go on and on about camera bodies and various lens types and apertures and f-stops...and there are those who are happy with the pictures they get from disposables...bored to tears by the jargon-spouting, hobby-centric, know-it-all geeks...

jimHJJ(...and that's why they make vanilla and chocolate...)

[jamison]

well let me rephrase this ... better construction to me = the POTENTIAL for better sound.
like having a house constructed with 2 x 8's instead of 2 x 4's you may not see a difference right away but give it some time.

im sure the average person cant hear much above 10k and i know i cant especially at 40 yrs of age.. but its nice to kow its there... like having a 12 foot ceiling instead of an 8 ft... you dont need the extra headroom but it can make a dramatic difference in the appearance of the room. I had my hearing tested a few years back and they said i cant hear anything above 10k.... but yet i can raise or lower the the 20 KHz setting on my eq and tell a difference why is that ? btw i only use the eq with my cd player... I like to listen to 2 channel without a sub and i boost the bass frequencies slightly for that... Klipsch isnt known for dramatic bass anyways..

or lets say photos, you can take a high resolution photo and lower it but you cant take a very low resolution photo and make it high resolution..
i guess i prefer something with better build quality... is my system the best one out there? no way, I like speakers a lot of people tend to hate (Klipsch) are they better sounding than anything out there ? No i know that... for me they sound better than a lot of stuff ive listened to... I cant afford or need Apogee speakers like some others... but at least I can say I worked for them... I do landscape designing and installations and the installation is very hard work, it makes me happy knowing i worked my duff off to afford what i have.. i havent had it handed to me by mommy and daddy
it all boils down to this ... a desired level of performance. (Bose builds a well-researched (on many levels) and well-built product line that fits within their corporate, and their customers, expectations) well researched? show me the reseach? they dont even list specs... i know specs arent everything but it is a starting point or point of reference. its their customers level of expectations... an appliance... it works its reliable.. well at least till the foam rots out. Bose built one unique design with the 901s everthing else they make is just a copy or variation of that with the exception of the cubes... just as Klipsch has done with the Klipschhorn... Btw ive heard them and cant stand them way too bright.. although i love my reference series..

[jamison]

If you listen to the BOSE and compare them to other speakers in the same price range and you like the sound of BOSE better buy them. and enjoy them.... IPODS are all the rage now and selling like hotcakes... Do i own one ... No and probably never will. my level of expecation is too high. I agree with you 100 percent on brand regocnition especially on looks and price. people tend to buy whats popular rather than whats better
they just dont know or care that there is a better option out there for them.

[Resident Loser]

well let me rephrase this ... better construction to me = the POTENTIAL for better sound.

...we could go off on the tangent of how modern injection molding gives better sample-to-sample quality control and allows for adherence to tighter tolerances, but I'm sure we would be wasting time and bandwidth...unfortunately you seem to have missed the entire point of my post...Bose doesn't build shoddy products, they are built with materials that do what is expected of them (budget and other-wise) and that will survive for at least as long as the warranty period requires...The Bose sound is the Bose sound, like it or not...just like any other sonic signature of any other audio product, like it or not...

One could cite high price (a product of their marketing and advertising costs), the closed-loop factor of the Lifestyle systems (done with a purpose) or the too-high crossover point of the bass module in the Acoustimass systems (a product of the designer-friendly size of the cubes)...these would be completely valid reasons...these would also be completely irrelevant to their customer base.

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head coercing them to purchase any of their products, yet people are...so if you insist saving folks from themselves, feel free...

jimHJJ(...Hmmm...mommy and daddy buys all the Bose stuff for their snot-nosed kids?...I think you may have issues that go well beyond their marketing practices...)

[PAT.P]

Wow, i guess having a personal opinion really is not welcome here. I never stated a fact about the sound of B&W Paradigm etc.. i simply said that to me they all sound the same. Live with it!

PS: Yes i do have another pair of DIVAS coming next month from a Italien collector incl. the digital active crossover. And yes before you ask, next week i will present my 3500$ crossover.....snoby? No, just a fact. And to quote a new member on this site who sent me a PMIt must be nice leeching under Daddy roof ,no expense .Most of us go out working ,have bills to pay,cars,home,saving for a "Rainy Day".To buy a $3500 crossover would take few weeks of salary,would'nt have money for mortgage on 2 house,no food in fridge,no money for utilities.Man should do like you move back home ,get rid of the family sell the house.Kick my daughter and grandkids out on the street from my rental property and sell this one.After all this buy a pair of Divas :yikes: and let my 84year old mother support me. Sorry rather stay the way I am:prrr: Cant wait for next week for "Show and Tell":ciappa:

[jamison]

Man dude you need to get a life if your spending $3500 dollars on a crossover... I just think about all the people who are born into homelessness and will never have anything... just think about how many people that $3500 could feed...
I own a classic mustang and it would be like me spending $3500 dollars on on a horn for it because it is chromed... no thanks ill save my money and get new horns for under 100 dollars. come to think about it now i could enjoy a pair of Bose 301 more than your ultrabuck soundsystem just because i worked for the cash...
im not poor either... i inherited a bunch of money from my father when he passed away but i honor him by spending it wisely and saving most of it..I used to work at Dana Corporatation world hq in toledo and I see people there that are soo ostentatious it makes me wana puke its no wonder they went under..

[jocko_nc]

I find the whole Bose arguement fascinating...

I cannot think of another company in another industry analogous to Bose. Their products, brand name, and pricing. Seriously, I think their story is unique. Someone help me out here, name another company that has managed to pull off what Bose has done.

The closest analogy I can come up with is Jaguar autos in the near past. They really did have a mystique and brand loyalty that far exceeded the cars they were producung. My in-laws have had a number of them since the 80's, some left a lot to be desired. Yet I have to give credit, they always did look fabulous.

There is probably a good analogy in fashion, I just don't know anything about it.

Somebody come up with an analogy and keep this Bose-bash thread going. Food. Travel. Appliances. Cars. Tools.

FWIW, my parents have a Bose system for which they no doubt paid a good bit of money. That sort of says it all.

jocko

[markw]

I cannot think of another company in another industry analogous to Bose. Their products, brand name, and pricing. Seriously, I think their story is unique. Someone help me out here, name another company that has managed to pull off what Bose has done.
Monster Cable? Another company that's heavy on the sizzle and price yet light on the steak.

[SlumpBuster]

Someone help me out here, name another company that has managed to pull off what Bose has done.

Easy. Your looking at it: Microsoft. Get a bunch of open source nerds together and you'll never hear then end of it.

[teledynepost]

Guys I didnt mean for the question to come all of this, sorry. Jesus Christ.

Hahah hilarious post. I'm still reading through this thread. V. entertaining. I'm currently sitting in front of the pair of Athena F2.2's that arrived yesterday, new for $239 (discount through work).

[teledynepost]

Easy. Your looking at it: Microsoft. Get a bunch of open source nerds together and you'll never hear then end of it.

Hrm, no.
I g
I can't think of anything that is quite like Bose as a company, you are right on that. Maybe Tommy Hilfiger or Abercrombie & Fitch. But then there's the manner in which Bose advertises. I don't watch a lot of TV, but their magazine ads seem very dated, like something straight out of 1984 (maybe with better typesetting).

[jocko_nc]

I thought of both of those, Microsoft and Monster.

Microsoft has used the law, strictly enforced when applied to themselves and shamelessly flaunted applied to the work of others, to perpetuate a monopoly in most everything it does. Bose exists in the free market.

Monster at least makes a decent, albeit overpriced and often unnecessary, product. At least when one buys their product, it is not far inferior to something else available at a fraction of the price. Their marketing is something to behold, for sure.

Nope. Neither comes close to what Bose has pulled off.

Imagine Applebee's remade as the top restaurant in (every) town? $45.00 entrees and an a la carte menu. People waiting in line to drop $700.00 at dinner. It's nuts.

Still looking for a proper analogy...

jocko

[topspeed]

Still looking for a proper analogy...

jocko
Well Jaguar sure as hell isn't it. Jag ranks number 2 in the JD Power IQS (behind Lexus) and has been ranked the top 5 for quite awhile now. Compare that to BMW and particularly to Benz which is trying desparately to crack the top 15! Why the marketing mavens at Ford haven't used this to their benefit is likely the same reason they are closing 14 plants: They really are that stupid! :crazy: Jags are far more than mystique. The XK120, D-type, and E-type are deified in automotive circles and I challenge you to find one bad review of the current XJ. Try that with Bose.

[njspeer]

I find the whole Bose arguement fascinating...

I cannot think of another company in another industry analogous to Bose. Their products, brand name, and pricing. Seriously, I think their story is unique. Someone help me out here, name another company that has managed to pull off what Bose has done.

The closest analogy I can come up with is Jaguar autos in the near past. They really did have a mystique and brand loyalty that far exceeded the cars they were producung. My in-laws have had a number of them since the 80's, some left a lot to be desired. Yet I have to give credit, they always did look fabulous.

There is probably a good analogy in fashion, I just don't know anything about it.

Somebody come up with an analogy and keep this Bose-bash thread going. Food. Travel. Appliances. Cars. Tools.

FWIW, my parents have a Bose system for which they no doubt paid a good bit of money. That sort of says it all.

jocko


Has it occurred to you that the reason you can't think of a good analogy to Bose is because your analysis is flawed?

To me all of this Bose bashing reminds me of all the Apple bashing that Mac fans have had to endure for the last 15+ years. "Macs are too expensive for what you get." "Macs can't run windows software." "Macs are too slow." "Macs don't have a command line interface." "Macs can't do this. "Macs can't do that." But what the complainers always failed to understand was what Apple actually did deliver, and why people, like me, always came back.

Harley Davidson is another good example of a company that the bashers can't figure out. These companies don't defy free market rules, but rather, the bashers just don't understand the market niche they fill.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: no company can succeeded in a free market on hype alone. If you think it can be done you should give it a try and see what happens.

[paul_pci]

If I may agree and disagree. As a Mac person, I couldn't agree more with what you said about Apple. However, let me venture a departure of lumping in Bose with the idea that a company cannot live on hype alone, which I tend to agree with. I think that Bose does not necessarily live on hype alone, but hype combined with ignorance (not stupidity), but literal not-aware-of ignorance. I wonder how many people sucked into Bose through hype have auditioned speakers, however "high end", outside of the confines of CC or BB? I wonder how many cosumers of Bose would stick with such a purchase after auditioning quality "unknown" to the mass market brands that cost far less? When a consumer walks into CC or BB or some such store, Bose already has market visibility which may color the consumer's ear in favor of a lifestyle system (lifestyle in debt from bad purchases (sorry couldn't help myself)) against other medicore speakers. Of course, this is not to say that I've never seen Bose in a high end store, but I'm willing to bet that if you stack Bose up against specialty speakers at the same cost or cheaper, the majority of listeners/consumers will not walk out with Bose. So, to answer your point, Bose survives through a combination of hype and ignorance: high market visibility and a lack of knowledge and exposure to speaker brands and models that would put Bose to shame for a fraction of the cost.



Has it occurred to you that the reason you can't think of a good analogy to Bose is because your analysis is flawed?

To me all of this Bose bashing reminds me of all the Apple bashing that Mac fans have had to endure for the last 15+ years. "Macs are too expensive for what you get." "Macs can't run windows software." "Macs are too slow." "Macs don't have a command line interface." "Macs can't do this. "Macs can't do that." But what the complainers always failed to understand was what Apple actually did deliver, and why people, like me, always came back.

Harley Davidson is another good example of a company that the bashers can't figure out. These companies don't defy free market rules, but rather, the bashers just don't understand the market niche they fill.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: no company can succeeded in a free market on hype alone. If you think it can be done you should give it a try and see what happens.

[GMichael]

Bose has done a lot of research. Not just into building speakers, but also into knowing what the general public wants. The general public wants small speakers and small, all in one, systems that don't take over their living rooms. They want to feel that their tiny system, by means of better technology, sound better than huge systems. There are more people out there that have enough money to afford a great system than there are people who understand what a great system is. Bose has aimed their markiting at this group. I say that it's brilliant. And they do make a product that is "good enough." It's good enough for the average person to turn on and say, "Wow! That sounds great!" Compaired to what the average person is used to, Bose sounds incredable. They found a nitch in the market. I don't fault them for that. Once again, I say, brilliant!
The problem that audiophile's (I'm not an audiophile mind you. Just a good observer) has with Bose is that they know that you can have much better sound for the same or less money if you can deal with having larger boxes in the room.
Now, njspeer, you got a good deal on your 901's. I think you did good. I bet that they do in fact sound good. It's when people put the words Bose & best together that the Audiophiles get restless.

[KaiWinters]

Very well said and absolutely spot on. It also helps that they are very aggressive, not a bad thing, in the marketing of their product.

[jocko_nc]

The new Jags are sweet, they have vastly improved with Ford. I was busting on them for the products they put out in the late 80's that were not so sweet.

Mac is a great product, arguably superior in many ways. No analogy to Bose at all.

Harley Davidson is interesting. However, the new Harleys are fine machines as well. They did put out some awful junk in the past as compared to what was available from Japan. Ironically, I think that unreliability added to the HD image that evolved. No question, their product is excellent now. A lot of image and mystique for sure, but a good product behind it. Expensive, but no analogy to Bose.

The more I think about it, Bose today is all hype and no substance. In as much as they have audio credibility, it has been going downhill for years. The best product they ever made is 35 years-old, and the best of those were the earlier models. I think the Wave Radio has been around for 25. I'm sorry, but their current stuff is lame. Someone noted that their advertising looks dated, that it hasn't been updated in ten years. I think they are milking the hype for all it is worth. What on Earth is that new three-channel surround thing they are selling? I do not even want to know how much they are asking for it. That system takes the cake, case closed.

I agree that a big value Bose adds is how it doesn't take over a room. It is audio equipment that appeals to people who aren't fundamentally interested in the sound it puts out. How screwed up is that? Doesn't that pretty much prove the point? I guess it is the definition of brilliant marketing, that is why I find it so interesting.

I'm trying to envision a car that is marketed for how it blends in with the landscaping in your driveway. A television screen that is so small and dark that it doesn't detract from your decor. A bicycle that is slow and hard to ride, except makes your butt look smaller.

It was stated that a company cannot exist on hype alone. I agree with that, but with the caveat that one can hang for a long time. Given the value delivered and the price being paid, I don't think Bose can go on like they are forever. Someone will move in on them, marketing prowess be damned.

jocko

[jocko_nc]

I stand corrected. "321" is a two channel system. Yipes. $1400.00 for a DVD player, two plastic speakers, and a bass box. It does come with a free setup DVD to show you how to hook it up.

That product says it all.

I used to have a 1991-ish Sony XBR with stereo speakers on the side and "SRS" audio processing. Looks very similar, I bet the performance wasn't off by that much either. Just add a cheesy sub (woofer).

[topspeed]

I stand corrected. "321" is a two channel system. Yipes. $1400.00 for a DVD player, two plastic speakers, and a bass box. It does come with a free setup DVD to show you how to hook it up.

That product says it all.
Meh...

It's no worse than speaker cable at $7,500/m. If people want to spend their money on such nonsense, I say more power to 'em.

[emorphien]

Wow, i guess having a personal opinion really is not welcome here. I never stated a fact about the sound of B&W Paradigm etc.. i simply said that to me they all sound the same. Live with it!
If they all sound the same to you, how do you have the ears to appreciate the equipment you use?

[canuckle]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: no company can succeeded in a free market on hype alone. If you think it can be done you should give it a try and see what happens.

You can say it all you like, that doesn't make it so. Do you think McDonald's exists for any reason beyond name recognition and advertising hype? Do they create a high-quality product that enriches your life and fosters good health? No, they give you a heart attack and you die. Has this flaw in their product-line run them out of the market and into bankruptcy? Not quite. Their marketting division has millions of children (who are otherwise uneducated in the realm of food choices) believing that McD's is the greatest food on earth. After being inundated with the food, a great many adults still keep going to the golden arches because they're a familiar and known quantity and they may even have developed a taste for it, even though deep-down they know that it's crap. Sound familiar?

Gee look, a crap product that's used market hype to become one of the biggest companies on earth.

[njspeer]

You can say it all you like, that doesn't make it so. Do you think McDonald's exists for any reason beyond name recognition and advertising hype? Do they create a high-quality product that enriches your life and fosters good health? No, they give you a heart attack and you die. Has this flaw in their product-line run them out of the market and into bankruptcy? Not quite. Their marketting division has millions of children (who are otherwise uneducated in the realm of food choices) believing that McD's is the greatest food on earth. After being inundated with the food, a great many adults still keep going to the golden arches because they're a familiar and known quantity and they may even have developed a taste for it, even though deep-down they know that it's crap. Sound familiar?

Gee look, a crap product that's used market hype to become one of the biggest companies on earth.


He he, this is great. Are you telling me people don't want McDonald's? Are you telling me that McDonald's has forced it's self on millions of helpless victims through hype, who would otherwise be eating tofu and asparagus? I don't lightly accuse people of smoking crack, but you sir are smoking crack if you don't think McDonald's is filling a niche.

[KaiWinters]

Exactly so..."filling a niche"...also opportunity.
Bose strongly markets the size of its system as well as its' sound quality. This addresses two large needs in the average home. The need of some sort of HT system that "reputedly" has major sound and the coolness factor AND is relatively unobtrusive, satisfying both the man and woman.

Watch HGTV, Generation Renovation, etc etc etc. When they are "redoing" a living/family style room that has some sort of entertainment system the wife always says she does not want to see the speakers, they take away from the decor.

I recently saw one of these shows as they were getting ready to redo a large family room. The husband had a very nice HT system with B+W floor standing and triangular shaped speakers, which were mounted on the back wall as surrounds. The wife wanted the speakers to disappear into the background and the first designer made them disappear totally. The look on the guys face was worth a million bucks..."you want to what...over my dead body"...hehehe...the designer they chose merely used a fabric that matched the paint to "hide" the speakers. The wife was happy and the husband was relieved...That is quite typical and is one of the marketing strategies Bose makes great use of.

[GMichael]

He he, this is great. Are you telling me people don't want McDonald's? Are you telling me that McDonald's has forced it's self on millions of helpless victims through hype, who would otherwise be eating tofu and asparagus? I don't lightly accuse people of smoking crack, but you sir are smoking crack if you don't think McDonald's is filling a niche.

No, he doesn't mean to say that people don't want McDonalds. He's saying that people want them even though they don't make the best food available.

[emorphien]

Exactly so..."filling a niche"...also opportunity.
Bose strongly markets the size of its system as well as its' sound quality.
It does very successfully fill the small system niche, and Bose is right to expound upon those virtues but no amount of creative marketing and technical mumbojumbo can cover for the fact that they don't provide the sound quality they claim to deliver.

[jocko_nc]

The McDonalds analogy is interesting.

That is the crappiest food in the whole fast food realm. I won't eat it and know very few who will. Which is not to say I don't love a good burger, its just that McDonalds doesn't make one. A Hardees thickburger? Now I'll risk a heart attack for one of those. People must eat there, a matter of low-rent convenience and habit.

The thing is, however, the original question posted here asked to confirm that Bose were the best-in-class performers. Now, if this were a hamburger forum, can anoyne possibly imagine a question asking whether the Big Mac is the best-in-class? Unlike McDonalds, Bose is generally assumed to be the best.

[Florian]

Its funny, i didnt like McDonalds in the US either and Burger King or Wendys was much better. Now here in germany i prefer McDonalds much more then Burger King. But in the end i drink a good beer and eat a fat swine in the beer garden :biggrin5:

As a general comment to some of our members.

I am asuming that you vote in your country. Your vote, whichever way it was has affected many lifes. In your own country and the countrys around you. Maybe you drive a big Truck that takes a lot of gasoline which then polutes my entire continent?! I am sure that you buy your wife some gifts every now and then, plus maybe a big screen TV? You could take that money and feed some hungry children.

I have the money to life in a seperate section of my parents house, i pay rent, electricity and a share of the food bill. I work 3 weeks a month as a teacher for the german military at 22, i teach at DEKRA one of the biggest schools in germany. I do contract work as a network engenieer here in my area. I can build a 3500$ crossover and enjoy speakers that cost as much as a car. And yes i am picking up a second pair in Italy. I am in the position to enjoy these toys, have good friends and a girlfriend. Maybe i find a apartment this year and complete my school, why should i not enjoy these moments? Because some people on an internet site disagree and would much rather see me enjoy a 400$ speaker that they can all agree on? I am not limited by children, car bills, house bills, or a family. Give me one good reason why i should not use my options?

[jocko_nc]

Ahhh, the Wife Factor...

So, Bose comes riding to the rescue when audio systems meet home decor. The furniture, accessories, and paint colors come first. Then the curtains. Then the plasma. Then the audio system. Can we thus conclude that Bose is the brand of choice for consumers who see audio as a necessary evil? Seriously...

That is a profound conclusion. As a necessary evil, the consumer will not become involved and personally invested in the process. He won't research. He won't compare. He won't shop. He will not try to understand all the technobabble and will not certainly will not try to hook up all those awful obsolete "components". Bose has all the answers: No cables, no amps, no nothing. It's magic. 5.1 channels out of two television speakers! Man, those guys are good. If you forget that fact, the commercials reming you every day. So he goes to the Bose store, Bose is Best. They make him feel comfortable and he gets his Visa card out. It's a safe, gutless decision.

Back to my elusive analogies, I cannot think of another consumer item that is purchased in such a way. You spend weeks pouring over paint colors and fabrics, then drop $2000.00 on a stereo system that you never even compared to anything else.

I'm not oblivious to decor issues, I recently retired some ugly Vandersteens over the issue. However, there has got to be a better way. Good bookshelf speakers are pretty inobtrusive. If you want zero-impact, in-wall and in-ceiling speakers can be fine. I think the industry has a way to go with higher-performance in-walls. I could probably do a DIY in-wall project that would sound fantastic, ceilings are even easier.

jocko

[emorphien]

Because some people on an internet site disagree and would much rather see me enjoy a 400$ speaker that they can all agree on?
Maybe there's a communication barrier, but that's not what they're saying at all.

[GMichael]

Its funny, i didnt like McDonalds in the US either and Burger King or Wendys was much better. Now here in germany i prefer McDonalds much more then Burger King. But in the end i drink a good beer and eat a fat swine in the beer garden :biggrin5:

As a general comment to some of our members.

I am asuming that you vote in your country. Your vote, whichever way it was has affected many lifes. In your own country and the countrys around you. Maybe you drive a big Truck that takes a lot of gasoline which then polutes my entire continent?! I am sure that you buy your wife some gifts every now and then, plus maybe a big screen TV? You could take that money and feed some hungry children.

I have the money to life in a seperate section of my parents house, i pay rent, electricity and a share of the food bill. I work 3 weeks a month as a teacher for the german military at 22, i teach at DEKRA one of the biggest schools in germany. I do contract work as a network engenieer here in my area. I can build a 3500$ crossover and enjoy speakers that cost as much as a car. And yes i am picking up a second pair in Italy. I am in the position to enjoy these toys, have good friends and a girlfriend. Maybe i find a apartment this year and complete my school, why should i not enjoy these moments? Because some people on an internet site disagree and would much rather see me enjoy a 400$ speaker that they can all agree on? I am not limited by children, car bills, house bills, or a family. Give me one good reason why i should not use my options?

Hey Flo,

You should do what makes you happy. Eveyone has their own dreams to chase. Don't let anyone tell you what should mean the most to you. Not that you needed me to tell you that.

A girlfriend huh? Been holding out on your buddies? So? What's she like? Is she 6' and blonde? Come on man. Spill it.

You may already know that much of what I make already goes overseas to my wife's family. They are very poor and need it just to put food on the table.

[GMichael]

The thing is, however, the original question posted here asked to confirm that Bose were the best-in-class performers. Now, if this were a hamburger forum, can anoyne possibly imagine a question asking whether the Big Mac is the best-in-class? Unlike McDonalds, Bose is generally assumed to be the best.

Well, not the original question that started the thread. But I know what you mean. Your question of, do we know of any other company like Bose. There most likely is not an exact match anywhere. Some will be like them in one area not not others. Then other companies will be the same in another area but not the whole picture either. Companies are like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike. Cool huh? Stupid but funny with a little truth mixed in.

[Florian]

Hey Flo,

You should do what makes you happy. Eveyone has their own dreams to chase. Don't let anyone tell you what should mean the most to you. Not that you needed me to tell you that.

A girlfriend huh? Been holding out on your buddies? So? What's she like? Is she 6' and blonde? Come on man. Spill it.

You may already know that much of what I make already goes overseas to my wife's family. They are very poor and need it just to put food on the table.

Well you know i do what i want anyways :-)

Well she is 5.2ft tall ( i am 6.3) so its kinda funny looking. She has long blond curly hair and loves music, lord of the rings and like me doesnt take **** from noone, and she gets what she wants. Pretty good match so far :-)

[canuckle]

He he, this is great. Are you telling me people don't want McDonald's? Are you telling me that McDonald's has forced it's self on millions of helpless victims through hype, who would otherwise be eating tofu and asparagus? I don't lightly accuse people of smoking crack, but you sir are smoking crack if you don't think McDonald's is filling a niche.

Boy, you're dense. Which would be the highest quality meal dip-wad? That's the question. Of course McD's fills a niche. A nicely developed one at that (thanks to their marketting) that people think they can't live without. All the hype in the world doesn't make them quality food or the best tasting options, but I assure you the hype keeps the business going and making billions. Which completely flattens your stupid assertions that only quality products result in successful businesses.

Bose, Big Mac... really the same thing in a different wrapper. A lot of people buy Bose, a lot of people like them. If they tried other speakers, would they conclude that Bose is the best? Of course not (unless they're deaf maybe). But it fills their ears when they don't otherwise care. And they do it because some advertisement told them they were getting something great, with two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun. Really all they got was two dry pieces of bread with a smattering of meat-like substance and 8 cents worth of condiments... but it was presented so darned nicely.

Enjoy your 901 quarter-pounder. Learn that there are those of us who like steak.

[Florian]

A quick question, i see B&W and Axiom etc.. advertising everywhere. They usually contradict themselves in Test reports too. It says they are the best, is it ok if i order a non-box meal too?

[canuckle]

A quick question, i see B&W and Axiom etc.. advertising everywhere. They usually contradict themselves in Test reports too. It says they are the best, is it ok if i order a non-box meal too?

Well gee, maybe that's why one should depend on some science? some testing? some statistics? Perhaps have a look at the quality of construction? Maybe get opinions other than the ones that come from the marketting department? High-end steakhouses in this city advertise too. Lucky for them, they have the product to back it up.

[Florian]

How can i base it on statistics. McDonalds is highly popular, and acording to statistics very good. So is B&W and Axiom is highly popular it must be good! On second thought, maybe the masses are completely wrong. I think ill stay with my previous order.

-Flo

[emorphien]

Perhaps you fail to grasp that in a certain price range there can be bests and worsts. Axiom, B&W, Paradigm (and whoever else you want to list) all offer some very good performance within and sometimes above their given price brackets. Are they the best? Depends on what you're talking about but I'm not sure how we got to this from Bose because they don't win those kinds of compliments in their price brackets.

Popular is sometimes a judge of what's good, sometimes not. But even still, you can call Paradigm or B&W or Axiom popular but they're popular among a small group of people. The masses don't generally think hard enough to even stumble across them.

[Florian]

Perhaps you fail to grasp that in a certain price range there can be bests and worsts. Axiom, B&W, Paradigm (and whoever else you want to list) all offer some very good performance within and sometimes above their given price brackets. Are they the best? Depends on what you're talking about but I'm not sure how we got to this from Bose because they don't win those kinds of compliments in their price brackets.

Popular is sometimes a judge of what's good, sometimes not. But even still, you can call Paradigm or B&W or Axiom popular but they're popular among a small group of people. The masses don't generally think hard enough to even stumble across them.

Perhaps you fail to grasp the size of B&W and they are most definetly mass market. Axiom is big too, i want to know the page hits of this site and the amount that click on the banner and buy something. This entire thread is completely useless but B&W is definetly mass market same as Paradigm, JBL or Infinity. Not that its bad, but its still a product for the masses.

:-)

[emorphien]

Perhaps you fail to grasp the size of B&W and they are most definetly mass market. Axiom is big too, i want to know the page hits of this site and the amount that click on the banner and buy something. This entire thread is completely useless but B&W is definetly mass market same as Paradigm, JBL or Infinity. Not that its bad, but its still a product for the masses.

:-)
Mass market isn't inherently bad however. You with your expensive tastes and seemingly limitless budget aren't like us mere mortals. They are an option to many people, and certainly deserve a look as do the smaller boutique brands. Axiom wasn't always "big" either but caught on fast.

B&W and Paradigm (and Axiom to an extent) are mass market but I'd say probably not at the level of JBL, Polk or Infinity. I've got no numbers, but based on what's available at most B&M stores and online retailers, those will probably tend to be big sellers and the most identifiable brands.

[Florian]

Mass market isn't inherently bad however. You with your expensive tastes and seemingly limitless budget aren't like us mere mortals. They are an option to many people, and certainly deserve a look as do the smaller boutique brands. Axiom wasn't always "big" either but caught on fast.

B&W and Paradigm (and Axiom to an extent) are mass market but I'd say probably not at the level of JBL, Polk or Infinity. I've got no numbers, but based on what's available at most B&M stores and online retailers, those will probably tend to be big sellers and the most identifiable brands.

Wow the way i am going now ill be a millionäre in a week or two. B&W, Paradigm are definetly not like the low budget infinity and jbl designs that is true, but where do you get the idea from that i am filthy rich and loaded?

[jocko_nc]

I'd be willing to sit down with a plate of McHamburgers and listen to Florian's system anytime. Does that mean we can all get along????

[Florian]

I'd be willing to sit down with a plate of McHamburgers and listen to Florian's system anytime. Does that mean we can all get along????

:cornut: Sure :-)

[emaidel]

Man, this thread's gone all over the place, hasn't it? I think the analogies made between Bose and McDonald's are wrong, since one very key issue has been left out: price. Whether one prefers Mickey D to Burker King, Wendy's or turns all three this way and that, all three fill a marketing strategy that's similar: offer reasonably good food at a low price, and offer it cionsistently, day after day after day. Fast food is immensely popular with Americans, not because of intense marketing, but because Americans like the stuff. No one forces anyone to eat at McDonald's (or any other fast food palace) yet, millions do on a daily basis, and enjoy themselves too.

Bose, on the other hand, sells a product that may in some ways be unique, and has always offered extensive marketing efforts behind those products. The nonsense of "direct-reflecting" sound from their "01" series of speakers was supported with more advertising and promotional in-store materials than practically all other speaker manufacturers combined. Personally, I thought it was pure BS, but, BOY, did they do a masterful job of promoting themselves, and supporting their dealers across the country.

I think there is no other company even remotely like Bose, and I think that's a good thing. Imagine a car company for example that launched a totally fabricated campaign about the "virtues" of that car as compared to others, promoted it extensively, and managed to get consumers to pay three, four and five times as much money for that car as another. Say what you will about BMW, Mercedes and others, they may be expensive, but they're all good automobiles. Bose products are, at best, OK, but priced astronomically high when compared to anything similar. That, and that alone, puts them in a class by themselves.

[GMichael]

Well you know i do what i want anyways :-)

Well she is 5.2ft tall ( i am 6.3) so its kinda funny looking. She has long blond curly hair and loves music, lord of the rings and like me doesnt take **** from noone, and she gets what she wants. Pretty good match so far :-)

She sounds great. Carefull dancing.

[GMichael]

Man, this thread's gone all over the place, hasn't it? I think the analogies made between Bose and McDonald's are wrong, since one very key issue has been left out: price. Whether one prefers Mickey D to Burker King, Wendy's or turns all three this way and that, all three fill a marketing strategy that's similar: offer reasonably good food at a low price, and offer it cionsistently, day after day after day. Fast food is immensely popular with Americans, not because of intense marketing, but because Americans like the stuff. No one forces anyone to eat at McDonald's (or any other fast food palace) yet, millions do on a daily basis, and enjoy themselves too.

Bose, on the other hand, sells a product that may in some ways be unique, and has always offered extensive marketing efforts behind those products. The nonsense of "direct-reflecting" sound from their "01" series of speakers was supported with more advertising and promotional in-store materials than practically all other speaker manufacturers combined. Personally, I thought it was pure BS, but, BOY, did they do a masterful job of promoting themselves, and supporting their dealers across the country.

I think there is no other company even remotely like Bose, and I think that's a good thing. Imagine a car company for example that launched a totally fabricated campaign about the "virtues" of that car as compared to others, promoted it extensively, and managed to get consumers to pay three, four and five times as much money for that car as another. Say what you will about BMW, Mercedes and others, they may be expensive, but they're all good automobiles. Bose products are, at best, OK, but priced astronomically high when compared to anything similar. That, and that alone, puts them in a class by themselves.

That's it! You guys have made me hungry now. But should I get a good steak and listen to Bose or stop at Jollybees on my way to Flo's?

[emaidel]

That's it! You guys have made me hungry now. But should I get a good steak and listen to Bose or stop at Jollybees on my way to Flo's?

Just be sure to listen to your 8-track in your car on the way over!

[GMichael]

Just be sure to listen to your 8-track in your car on the way over!
Can't. :sad: I ran out of matchbook covers to shove under the corner of the tape. :incazzato:

Now I get to hear three songs at once. It's kind of like being at a parade. :idea:

[Resident Loser]

I stand corrected. "321" is a two channel system. Yipes. $1400.00 for a DVD player, two plastic speakers, and a bass box...Just add a cheesy sub (woofer).

...MSRP is a fool...that system can be had for around $700 at some "warehouse" retailers...yeah, I know another nail in it's coffin, but for someone looking for plug'n'play convenience, what could be better than picking it up, along with the five-pounder of Doritos and a gallon of Taco-Bell salsa?

And quite honestly, none of the HT stuff they peddle sounds particularly bad...after all it's only tee-vee with a fancy name...as if the average Joe gives a r@t's @$$ about soundstage or any of the supercilious audiopile BS...bring on the laser totin' mechanical lizards and pass me a cold one...

BTW, for the record...it's not a sub...and the cheese is on the nachos...

jimHJJ(...ah! the altruistic audio-geek...)

[JohnMichael]

Hey Flo,

You should do what makes you happy. Eveyone has their own dreams to chase. Don't let anyone tell you what should mean the most to you. Not that you needed me to tell you that.

A girlfriend huh? Been holding out on your buddies? So? What's she like? Is she 6' and blonde? Come on man. Spill it.

You may already know that much of what I make already goes overseas to my wife's family. They are very poor and need it just to put food on the table.


GMichael you are awesome. I could not respect you anymore than I do right now.

[GMichael]

GMichael you are awesome. I could not respect you anymore than I do right now.

Thanks, but will you still respect me in the morning?:yikes:

[GMichael]

...MSRP is a fool...that system can be had for around $700 at some "warehouse" retailers...yeah, I know another nail in it's coffin, but for someone looking for plug'n'play convenience, what could be better than picking it up, along with the five-pounder of Doritos and a gallon of Taco-Bell salsa?

And quite honestly, none of the HT stuff they peddle sounds particularly bad...after all it's only tee-vee with a fancy name...as if the average Joe gives a r@t's @$$ about soundstage or any of the supercilious audiopile BS...bring on the laser totin' mechanical lizards and pass me a cold one...

BTW, for the record...it's not a sub...and the cheese is on the nachos...

jimHJJ(...ah! the altruistic audio-geek...)

Right, these are the easy way for people who don't want to mix & match. One thing to buy. One thing to plug in. It sounds "good enough." Actually, they don't sound bad. Just not the best for the buck. I have a Yamaha 6.1 HTIB system (that I got free, sorta). List price was $750 when it was new. You could buy it for less now, I'm sure. Bet it sounds better than the 3.1. But who cares? The 3.1 is easier. And you get to tell your friends (who also don't care) that you have the best. It says Bose. They are the best.

You got a laser totin' mechanical lizard? Way cool! Can I have a cold one too?

[JohnMichael]

Thanks, but will you still respect me in the morning?:yikes:


I'll let you know in the morning.:blush2:

[HAVIC]

I find the whole Bose arguement fascinating...

I cannot think of another company in another industry analogous to Bose. Their products, brand name, and pricing. Seriously, I think their story is unique. Someone help me out here, name another company that has managed to pull off what Bose has done.

The closest analogy I can come up with is Jaguar autos in the near past. They really did have a mystique and brand loyalty that far exceeded the cars they were producung. My in-laws have had a number of them since the 80's, some left a lot to be desired. Yet I have to give credit, they always did look fabulous.

There is probably a good analogy in fashion, I just don't know anything about it.

Somebody come up with an analogy and keep this Bose-bash thread going. Food. Travel. Appliances. Cars. Tools.

FWIW, my parents have a Bose system for which they no doubt paid a good bit of money. That sort of says it all.

jocko

Actually I can but no one ones it really happened. Iomega. At the time Iomega came out with their Zip Drive another company, Imation came out with the super disk. I could get into the technical reasons, but basically the Super Disk by Imation was far, far superior. However because of Iomega's marketing the Super Disk failed. People want to be told what to be no one wants to research. I blame the Zip disk for floppy drives existing today. Had the Super Disk technology won out it was backwards compatible with floppy disks. It just goes to show how adverstising beats out the better product.

I'm an IT technician and I get very annoyed a stupid consumers when I still have to use a floppy disk.

[emorphien]

Actually I can but no one ones it really happened. Iomega. At the time Iomega came out with their Zip Drive another company, Imation came out with the super disk. I could get into the technical reasons, but basically the Super Disk by Imation was far, far superior. However because of Iomega's marketing the Super Disk failed. People want to be told what to be no one wants to research. I blame the Zip disk for floppy drives existing today. Had the Super Disk technology won out it was backwards compatible with floppy disks. It just goes to show how adverstising beats out the better product.

I'm an IT technician and I get very annoyed a stupid consumers when I still have to use a floppy disk.
Ugh I remember those and I agree 100%.

Iomega has never come out with a reliable product that shouldn't have been squashed by the competition.

[Resident Loser]

...Can I have a cold one too?

...as long as you don't mind a can of Old Milwaukee NA...

My drinking license was semi-voluntarily surrendered about 16yrs. ago but I still like the taste of a brew now and again...

When (and if) I hit the big 6-0, I have every intention of pouring myself a few fingers of JD from the still-sealed, 90proof, commemorative Belle Of Lincoln decanter I've had for some twenty-odd years...

jimHJJ(...maybe even go for an Upmann Churchill...and later on, wash it all down with a bottle of Beck's Dark...)

[PAT.P]

I'll let you know in the morning.:blush2:I dont know what to say!

[L.J.]

What! Pat, why you gonna drag me into this? I was doing just fine keeping my distance. Don't make me call wifee on you.

[PAT.P]

Well you know i do what i want anyways :-)

Well she is 5.2ft tall ( i am 6.3) so its kinda funny looking. She has long blond curly hair and loves music, lord of the rings and like me doesnt take **** from noone, and she gets what she wants. Pretty good match so far :-)I'm honestly happy for you Flo ,hope all works out for you .Sometime it takes a woman to change a man.:ihih:

[PAT.P]

What! Pat, why you gonna drag me into this? I was doing just fine keeping my distance. Don't make me call wifee on you.I knew I was going to get some attention from one of the boys!Hope all is well?I had to change the topic of J&G Micheal they were really getting in a bit to deep:ihih:

[GMichael]

...as long as you don't mind a can of Old Milwaukee NA...

My drinking license was semi-voluntarily surrendered about 16yrs. ago but I still like the taste of a brew now and again...

When (and if) I hit the big 6-0, I have every intention of pouring myself a few fingers of JD from the still-sealed, 90proof, commemorative Belle Of Lincoln decanter I've had for some twenty-odd years...

jimHJJ(...maybe even go for an Upmann Churchill...and later on, wash it all down with a bottle of Beck's Dark...)

Uhg, What? No Colt45?

[GMichael]

I dont know what to say!

Exstortion huh?

[GMichael]

I knew I was going to get some attention from one of the boys!Hope all is well?I had to change the topic of J&G Micheal they were really getting in a bit to deep:ihih:

Fine, we'll just meet over at Spanky's site.

[PAT.P]

Fine, we'll just meet over at Spanky's site.Where is Spanky?Since his cat died ,he's not been around.You check on his site .

[Resident Loser]

Uhg, What? No Colt45?

...maybe?

jimHJJ(...did in many a six of Colt 16s...)

[GMichael]

Where is Spanky?Since his cat died ,he's not been around.You check on his site .

His last post on his own site was December.

[L.J.]

I knew I was going to get some attention from one of the boys!Hope all is well?I had to change the topic of J&G Micheal they were really getting in a bit to deep:ihih:

I've just been getting a good read outta this one. Interesting thread.

[JohnMichael]

uh......well......wait a minute......oh hell I can not remember what this thread was originally about.

[L.J.]

uh......well......wait a minute......oh hell I can not remember what this thread was originally about.

exactly :)

[PAT.P]

uh......well......wait a minute......oh hell I can not remember what this thread was originally about.I think it started when Florian wanted to buy a pair of Bose 301 .We all tried to stop him,but dont know if we did stop him?:ihih:

[audio_dude]

ummm...can someone please close this tread, cause it's just getting mindless chatter, like this...

[jamison]

better to have mindless chatter than to let friends buy BLOSE ah i mean BLOWS i i mean BOSE... ah I mean Better off with something else

[Florian]

I think it started when Florian wanted to buy a pair of Bose 301 .We all tried to stop him,but dont know if we did stop him?:ihih:

Actually i already moved ahead and got the 501's :6:

[markw]

I'm honestly happy for you Flo ,hope all works out for you .Sometime it takes a woman to change a man.:ihih:either that, or some hormones and a skillful surgeon

[GMichael]

ummm...can someone please close this tread, cause it's just getting mindless chatter, like this...

Keep it up and I'll tell ya a story about a boy, a cat and a cotonwood tree.

[Florian]

Keep it up and I'll tell ya a story about a boy, a cat and a cotonwood tree.

Not to forget Florian's Patented "Ultra Snot"....

[GMichael]

Not to forget Florian's Patented "Ultra Snot"....

Who could ever forget that? It was ultra slippery.

[markw]

they hit it off and decide to go back to her place. After doing what comes naturally, they are siting back, enjoying a smoke and he happens to notice a picture of a guy on the nightstand.

Being a bit concerned, he asks "Is that your husband?

she says, "No silly, don't wory about it."

They go for round two. They are again smoking a cigarette but he can't get the picture of the guy out of his mind. He askes her "Well then, is that your boyfriend?

Again, she says "No, don't worry about it."

Fool that he is, he won't let it go. He says "Well then, who it it then?"

She'a more than a little miffed now and replies "Ya really want to know, don't ya? OK then, here goes. That's me before the operation!"

[GMichael]

A woman in her forties went to a plastic surgeon for a facelift.
The surgeon told her about a new procedure called "The Knob," where a small knob is placed at the top of the woman's head and can be turned to tighten up her skin and produce the affect of a brand new face-lift. Of course , the woman wanted "The Knob."

Over the course of the years, the woman tightened the knob, and the effects were wonderful, the woman remained young looking and vibrant.
After fifteen years, the woman returned to the surgeon with two problems . "All these years, everything has been working just fine. I've had to turn the knob many times and I've always loved the results. But now I've developed two annoying problems:

First, I have these terrible bags under my eyes and the knob won't get rid of them."
The doctor looked at her closely and said, "Those aren't bags, those are your breasts."

She said, "Well, I guess there's no point in asking about the goatee .

[thekid]

MarkW-loved the joke

At the risk of bringing this thread back in the area of the original topic....

I think we can all agree Bose has done a great job marketing their product. IMO marketing can prop up an average product but it can not overcome the faults of a poor one.

The question I have though is; if marketing was so easy why have not at least one of Bose's competitors imulated their marketing strategy. Now I have heard some here say that some of manufacturers have made a deliberate decision to remain "boutique" dealers and focus on quality. I will buy that with some, but others have been in business a long time and are fairly large corporations or subsidaries of large corporations who are not in the business of "leaving money on the table" so to speak. Has Bose cowed them so much they don't even try anymore? Is Bose the Microsoft of the speaker world-meaning that they have established such a dominant position that it is financial suicide to try and compete with them at the marketing level?

Understand I am not defending Bose but am more curious about how the industry operates vs the Bose model. Successful business models are often copied but in the speaker world this just does not seem to be the case. There are a few of you out there who have been following the industry for a long time maybe you can shed some light on this.

[L.J.]

A woman in her forties went to a plastic surgeon for a facelift.
The surgeon told her about a new procedure called "The Knob," where a small knob is placed at the top of the woman's head and can be turned to tighten up her skin and produce the affect of a brand new face-lift. Of course , the woman wanted "The Knob."

Over the course of the years, the woman tightened the knob, and the effects were wonderful, the woman remained young looking and vibrant.
After fifteen years, the woman returned to the surgeon with two problems . "All these years, everything has been working just fine. I've had to turn the knob many times and I've always loved the results. But now I've developed two annoying problems:

First, I have these terrible bags under my eyes and the knob won't get rid of them."
The doctor looked at her closely and said, "Those aren't bags, those are your breasts."

She said, "Well, I guess there's no point in asking about the goatee .

Now, that was funny..:lol:

[GMichael]

MarkW-loved the joke

At the risk of bringing this thread back in the area of the original topic....

I think we can all agree Bose has done a great job marketing their product. IMO marketing can prop up an average product but it can not overcome the faults of a poor one.

The question I have though is; if marketing was so easy why have not at least one of Bose's competitors imulated their marketing strategy. Now I have heard some here say that some of manufacturers have made a deliberate decision to remain "boutique" dealers and focus on quality. I will buy that with some, but others have been in business a long time and are fairly large corporations or subsidaries of large corporations who are not in the business of "leaving money on the table" so to speak. Has Bose cowed them so much they don't even try anymore? Is Bose the Microsoft of the speaker world-meaning that they have established such a dominant position that it is financial suicide to try and compete with them at the marketing level?

Understand I am not defending Bose but am more curious about how the industry operates vs the Bose model. Successful business models are often copied but in the speaker world this just does not seem to be the case. There are a few of you out there who have been following the industry for a long time maybe you can shed some light on this.

There have been a few copycats. But no one who has stepped up to the plate to stand toe to toe and go punch for punch. The Yamahas, Denon's and Onkyo's of the world have shot out a few HTIB systems that sound better than Bose but don't have the same advertizing behind them. My guess is that it's because it's not all they do. Yamaha makes motorcycles & other motor sports equipment. Not to mention some very nice musical instruments. There are others who make HTIB systems that are so bad that they make Bose look like they really are the best. Altec Lancing has done a good job to make small systems that sound bigger than they are. But they have aimed their marketing at the computer world and don't compete directly with Bose. They do look and sound very similar. Both have decided that the general public wants small speakers more than they want great sound. And they have learned how to cut the right corners. Their research has shown them that it's the voices that people want to hear the most. But they also like a little thump. So they spend their money to make a speaker that reproduces the mids fairly well. The highs roll off fast but the commom person doesn't mind. Throw in a sub and you're good to go. So what if there's a gap between 100htz and 200htz? Unless you play them side by side with a better system you won't notice. You'll never know what you're missing unless you hear it from somewhere else. So the common man goes along thinking, "this is great! I get hi-fi sound without the hugh hi-fi system. What are all those guys thinking buying those big speakers? "

[noddin0ff]

Keep it up and I'll tell ya a story about a boy, a cat and a cotonwood tree.

Update to 'Poplar' tree...

[thekid]

GMichael

Thanks for the response your Yamaha example is kind of what I was getting at.

The oft repated Bose formula is low quality components+marketing=overpriced speakers sold to a mass market. Yamaha is a large corporation and is motivated by profit so you would think they would copy the Bose formula and increase their marketshare/profit margins. Assuming Yamaha's product is as good or better than Bose they should be successful. Buy a little time on QVC, put together a media campaign and with Yamaha they could cross-promote within their already established market base.

[markw]

They make much more than speaker systems. Their name and reputation is built on the overall width and quality of their lineup. If their only claim to fame was speakers then you might have a point.

[Florian]

I think it depends highly on the image Yamaha, Onkyo etc. wants. Onkyo does build small HTIB systems which properbly sound better then the small BOSE altough they are not as neatly integrated (disc changer, processsor etc..) BUT they also have the Onkyo Integra DTR9.1 or the combination with BAT. Do they want to push their small systems with advertising by saying its the best? No, because whats the point in spening a few K for a big system. BOSE's products dont really differentiate from each others. The "ONE" marketing plan works for all their products. Better sound through advertising.

[PAT.P]

Its funny that Bose as their "niche " market no matter .Take Harman International they are into so many audio product .In speakers they own Infinity,JBL,Revel and more.In receiver /amp their own Harman Kardon ,Crown ,Mark Levinson,Lexicon ect ect.Their market is consumer home/car ,pro application/studio .Personaly I won't buy any Bose product it just does'nt turn me on .:ihih:

[jocko_nc]

I think it says a LOT for Yamaha that they don't advetise so much, at least not in mass-market brand name building ways. They are certainly found in niche-specific media, but I cannot recall a genreic TV ad for motorcylces, boats, outboards, electronics or musical instruments. People know Yamaha. People know their products. Their products largely speak for themselves. As a diversified manufacturing company, I have to say they do it right. I have a lot of respect for the way they must have been managed over the years.

I have a Yamaha receiver that turned out to be a great purchase. I have a Yamaha outboard that is truly an exceptional piece of machinery. I have an old Yamaha guitar amp. All good stuff.

jocko

[topspeed]

I think it says a LOT for Yamaha that they don't advetise so much, at least not in mass-market brand name building ways. They are certainly found in niche-specific media, but I cannot recall a genreic TV ad for motorcylces, boats, outboards, electronics or musical instruments. People know Yamaha. People know their products. Their products largely speak for themselves. As a diversified manufacturing company, I have to say they do it right. I have a lot of respect for the way they must have been managed over the years.

I have a Yamaha receiver that turned out to be a great purchase. I have a Yamaha outboard that is truly an exceptional piece of machinery. I have an old Yamaha guitar amp. All good stuff.

jockoJocko, I couldn't agree more! :thumbsup:

I can't think of another company that is as diversified as Yammie and yet still maintains a consistent level of excellence regardless of the product. In home electronics, they are one of the very few, if not the last, mass market company to still build their own boards and dacs. Their quality and reliability is unquestioned. In pro audio, whether it's acoustic instruments such as pianos and drum kits or electronic synths, they are placed among the elite. Their motorcycles have one countless world championships and they do contract engineering and manufacturing for a number of automobile companies like Ford as well as race teams. They must have one of the best collections of engineering talent on the planet.

[Woochifer]

I think it says a LOT for Yamaha that they don't advetise so much, at least not in mass-market brand name building ways. They are certainly found in niche-specific media, but I cannot recall a genreic TV ad for motorcylces, boats, outboards, electronics or musical instruments. People know Yamaha. People know their products. Their products largely speak for themselves. As a diversified manufacturing company, I have to say they do it right. I have a lot of respect for the way they must have been managed over the years.

I have a Yamaha receiver that turned out to be a great purchase. I have a Yamaha outboard that is truly an exceptional piece of machinery. I have an old Yamaha guitar amp. All good stuff.

jocko

It's actually quite interesting because Yamaha's roots are in music education and musical instrument manufacturing. The only mass marketing that they do is with their motorcycles, and that seems to work very well for their corporate branding.

I honestly cannot remember a product line where Yamaha did not make something that was at least a cut above average. At one time, Yamaha had a sporting goods division that manufactured tennis racquets (they were one of the first to use composites and graphite), archery equipment, golf clubs, etc. They also established a solid reputation for making good computer peripherals such as sound cards and CD-RW drives, until the price competition forced them out of the market a few years ago.

Working with professional musicians in college, I remember that Yamaha maintained great relationships with recording artists who used their products. The musicians I knew told me about how well made and reliable Yamaha's instruments were -- everything from the bass guitars to the horn instruments to the electronic keyboards.

But, it also seems that a lot of Asian companies have this kind of diversified product lineup. For example, we know that Hitachi makes TVs, but they also manufacture industrial robots, earth moving equipment, forklifts, power tools, and disc drives. Hyundai we know from their cars, but they also make memory chips, and PCs. LG is one of the top three plasma TV manufacturers worldwide, but they also make refrigerators, air conditioners, washing machines, cell phones, and microwave ovens. Panasonic is a similarly diversified company, as their National division is one of the top selling appliance brands in Asia. In the U.S., they sell stuff like pencil sharpeners, phones, Toughbook laptop computers, photocopiers, rice cookers, blood pressure monitors, massage chairs, etc.

[emorphien]

The only critique I could offer of some of Yamahas instruments (I speak mainly of their brass as I play the trombone) is they tend to lack the warmth and "soul" of some of the other brands. That's fine for some and some types of music though and they are technically excellent instruments. But if you ask some players they're just very flat and straightforward without any character.

[Woochifer]

The only critique I could offer of some of Yamahas instruments (I speak mainly of their brass as I play the trombone) is they tend to lack the warmth and "soul" of some of the other brands. That's fine for some and some types of music though and they are technically excellent instruments. But if you ask some players they're just very flat and straightforward without any character.

I heard that as well, but a common theme among the musicians I knew seems to be that Yamaha instruments travel well and hold up under the abuse of touring and lugging from one studio session or live gig to another very well. Plus, they tend to be more consistent from one instrument to another. Most of the guys I talked to played Yamaha's electric basses and electronic keyboards.

[emorphien]

I heard that as well, but a common theme among the musicians I knew seems to be that Yamaha instruments travel well and hold up under the abuse of touring and lugging from one studio session or live gig to another very well. Plus, they tend to be more consistent from one instrument to another. Most of the guys I talked to played Yamaha's electric basses and electronic keyboards.
No doubt they're well made stuff, which is more of a concern with electronic instruments than brass. Most good brass instruments are all pretty solid but that's nothing a color guards flag pole won't fix with a quick whack to the slide shaft.

[SlumpBuster]

I use Yamaha golf clubs, a set of irons, that I inherited. They are really nice and I haven't found anything that I would replace them with. When I got a new Cobra driver and set of woods at like $300 to $400 each, my friends all thought they were great but couldn't understand why I relied on my Yamaha's so much.

[jamison]

I think that Joe consumer goes out and buys Bose because of name regonition...they dont want to fuss over it they think that Bose automatically means good sound... I think that most of the people on here who post regularly know better. we do research and try to find that extra tweak that makes our system sound better. Joe consumer doesnt know any better or want to know any better... what i have a problem with is Joe Consumer (my brotherinlaw and his friends) telling everyone else how much better Bose is and how i should sell my set of speakers and get BOSE because joe blow musician recommends them. Ignorance is bliss they say... I would like to think that ill never see bliss ... the one thing in life ive learned for certain is that ALTHOUGH I MAY NOT BE THE SMARTEST PERSON IN THE WORLD THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE DUMBER THAN I AM...

[thekid]

Wooch

You might have a point when you mention the diversified companies because their business models probably build in a certain pricing point/profit margin for each division and if they are making that their is no push within the corporate structure to go after additional dollars.

Flo- Your point regarding company and their "image" is one that is often used but I just don't see it on a regular basis in the business world. Business does care about their image- name branding but in the end the bottom line is still about profit. For example Warren Buffett buys business' that have name value and established niche within their line of business and then asks them to go out and make money-sometimes putting lots of money into advertising so that business can grow. Now the companies still maintain their original character or niche but they are increasing profit and by default market share.

Harman is probably a good example of company that appears to be solely in the consumer electronics business and would be someone you think would take a page from the Bose marketing game plan and run with it.

I know I have kind of taken this thread in another direction but I think it is interesting (or scary) the type of behavior/results people ascribe to Bose marketing within the speaker industry. Again this is not meant as a defense of Bose just an observation. Someone mentioned Microsoft earlier and not being a techie I don't know if they are viewed in some of the ways in the software/computer industry as Bose is within the speaker industry. There was a lot of talk about McDonalds earlier and while they are a mass marketer they don't hold the same name recognition as Bose does within the general public. Can anyone think of-nominate another company that is similar to Bose within their given industry i.e. marginal product but percieved good/excellent reputation with the public?

[GMichael]

There was a lot of talk about McDonalds earlier and while they are a mass marketer they don't hold the same name recognition as Bose does within the general public.

Huh? Are we talking about the same McDonalds?

[Worf101]

Man, just got through this thread... Jeeze Louise... what a cracker. When I see guys like this character NJM or whatever the hell his name is, I always wonder where he/she comes from. Obviously a Bose fanboi... but why... It's been proven that Intel and others PAY people to join forums and expect them to build a rep then pump their products whenever possible. So when I see someone vociferously defend the indefensible... I begin to smell a rat, a plant, a shill, a trojan horse. Something is rotten in the state of AR and it ain't me... I washed last month.

Da Worfster

[Resident Loser]

...So when I see someone vociferously defend the indefensible... I begin to smell a rat, a plant, a shill, a trojan horse...

...with all due respect, while that may be the case (although I seriously doubt Bose would need to plant a shill given their non-audiopile customer base), I must question your use of the word "indefensible"...

What do you find "indefensible"?

The fact that someone, somewhere...who actually isn't a marketing-smitten boob, might actually prefer a Bose product?

I've already voiced my reservations about some of their stuff...

Their pricing, while high, is based on their advertising costs AND the always-cited argument re: low cost of raw materials they use vs. pricing, isn't the only facet to take into consideration.

If you read any books on marketing/business strategies, one of the biggest arbiters of pricing is percieved value...why else would some cups of coffee cost upwards of $4, certain toiletries (which are mostly ionized or distilled water) cost a day's pay per ounce or specific brands of womens' shoes cost $600-800 a pair?

I object to their closed-loop systems for obvious reasons...but...the 3-2-1 system is unarguably the simplest approach for a psuedo-surround HT experience...The whole HT enchilada is predominantly based on the unreal boom and sizzle of my oft mentioned laser-totin' mechanical lizards, so this product just carries it to a logical (and obviously acceptable-by-a-part-of the-buying-public) conclusion...fun and fast, plug'n'play...cheez'n'crackers it's only tee-vee...and FWIW I find the sound produced, given the premise of HT in general, to be quite satisfying and otherwise technically interesting...

I also object to the single summing bass module of the Acoustimass/Lifestyle stuff...but I also have a problem with single summing subs in general...in saying that however, if set up properly (as any intelligent audio enthusiast would position the components) a reasonbly respectable presentation would result. Not to mention the "value" (perceived and otherwise) of the decorating/WAF...

And whilst on the subject, while I may be a bit of a Bose-O-phile, placement and positioning is certainly a big issue with most of their line...

I purchased my 901-IIs (MSRPd @$525/pr)in '75...based, in part, on what I found as strong, technical reasons...no woofers, no tweeters, no crossovers...just nine 4.5" full-range drivers with +/- 1/4in. excursion and the equivalent output of a 12" woofer, with none of the cone mass and potential for hangover, etc. The ususal counter to that I oftimes hear is the spec of a high distortion figure...I've never heard any distortion or degredation of sound attributable to such...P.S. In practice...like it or not, believe it or not, it works. Obviously anecdotal and included only FWIW (which I realize is zero!), I perceive it as smooth, crisp and tight, well-extended bass response, felt as well as heard.

I've gone through a bit of work to coax the best performance out of them, but not really much more than other's who are as serious about sound. When I moved into my house, I had to build a half-wall for the right speaker to do it's direct/reflect thing and balance out the dispersion pattern/soundfield produced. In addition to reasonable room tweaking, the SAE half-octave EQ I added before becoming lord of the manor, aided in further refining the sound...Having a Crown test disk, an SPL meter and a more-than-tolerant wife, many FR plots later, I had a system that was EQd from the stylus to my preferred listening position...I determined that, at least for me, flat wasn't where it was at, so I have incorporated a gentle roll-off of freqs above 8-10k which sounds more natural...it hands me a laff when I read the ol' party-line-mantra of "...no highs, no lows...it must be Bose..."

Then there's the 301s I used to use as rears when I was into the whole post-quad, ambience recovery phase or the 101s that were bracketed over my bed (and would whack me whenever I forgot they were there). 901s and 301s=excellent sonic match for surround, synthesized or otherwise...in fact the both EQd to a very simialr response curve...The 101s were compact and operating as near-field radiators, were nearly oblivious to room effects.

The over 30yr.-old 901s are still alive and kickin'...the 301s (victims of foam-rot) and 101s are no longer used...the bedroom now has a GPX CDP ($7 after rebate) plugged (via a RS adapter) into basic Wave radio (won in a non-audio retailers promotion-I would never pay that much for a clock-radio) which, when properly positioned, sounds quite good BTW...plus it has a small footprint and doesn't bop me noggin'...

I have often said, given the whole direct/reflecting aspect of the majority of Bose loudspeakers, a comparison with direct-radiator systems is simply untenable...neither sounds like the other, nor given their immense design differences, should they...I won't tell anyone what they should buy and I certainly don't tout Bose products...even though they have worked for me for over 30yrs. That is a decision that the individual should arrive at for themselves...you will either like them or you won't, but they are a completely different animal and must be appreciated and more importantly listened to, from a different perspective and with a different mindset.

jimHJJ(...and for some they just might be the "best"...)

[HAVIC]

Can anyone think of-nominate another company that is similar to Bose within their given industry i.e. marginal product but percieved good/excellent reputation with the public?

Yeah the Apple Ipod. I can't believe the hype this thing gets for the price that is. It is very similar in the BOSE model.

Here is what I mean you have the bose speakers which most people will say that the are over priced for the sound that they produce.

Apple Ipod is overpriced for the quality and features they offer. What they are selling you is a flashy nice looking device. They are the only mp3 player that advertises on a regular basis, the only one on tv atleast. Becuase of this people just run out and buy an ipod, most do not even realize that there are alternatives.

Another issue with the ipod is it's percieved easy of use. Why do I need to install new software on my computer to use this thing, just another step that is not needed.

It only has a headphone jack, no seperate lineout. It does not come with a carrying case.
Has a proprietary connect on the bottom of the ipod requiring you, if you lose it, to buy theirs. No line in. Not radio or microphone. Everything is an add on extra.

You have to make an appointment to have it looked at in a store (NY area atleast) and can still wait up to 3 hours to have it looked at. My 1 friend is on his 7th refurbished ipod, my other friend his 4th (Both are 4g ipods.) I hear horror stories all the time.

Can only use itunes no other online music support. DRM kills your battery. Lack of extensive codec support.

I can go I but I think it is pretty close, however I feel that this comparison model only works for the ipod not the entire company.

You look at most other mp3 players in the market and they come with a lot more for the same money or less.

[audio_dude]

can someone tell me again, how did this go from how crappy Bose is to woman that are men jokes...and yamaha...

[JohnMichael]

can someone tell me again, how did this go from how crappy Bose is to woman that are men jokes...and yamaha...


Just part of the charm of AR or at least those of us that can not stay on topic. If we told you how this happens we would really be off topic. Sorry

[topspeed]

That's an interesting analogy, Havic. The only thing that I counter is that to me, Apple's AAC format sounds a heckuva lot better than MP3. I've heard the same song encoded at 128 AAC on an iPod and then compared it to a 128 MP3 on a Samsung and it was horrid. I have no idea why it sounded so much better, but even the owner of the Sammy was surprised. In fact, he went out and bought an iPod later that week. Therefore, in that respect it at least lives up to it's perceived value.

I almost hate to get this thread back on track, after all I thought we were talking about Yamaha :p? I have to admit that for their market, Bose is brilliant. They build equipment specifically for their target market: plug-n-play simplicity, aesthetics, and name recognition. The second greatest human need after self preservation is recognition. People like to be aknowledged and Bose, through a lot of very clever marketing, has managed to infuse the sense of Bose=high quality in the mass psyche. Try to name one person that hasn't heard of Bose!

They seem to be really pushing the 321 system right now and if you watch the ad, you'll note that they aren't making any wild or outlandish claims. They have a testimonial from some guy that simply states "Compared to a TV's speakers, the Bose 3-2-1 will astonish you." Of course they will! TV speakers suck, but he's certainly not lying. Now if he said the 321 sounds better than the similar Yamaha YSP1, then we'd have something to flame Bose about.

As an interesting aside: Bose is losing ground big time with luxury car makers. As we all know, Bose builds car audio systems in everything from Chevy to Mercedes. However, research has shown that they have become almost too ubiquitous and luxury buyers no longer think of them as "special" enough. Apparently, these buyers don't cotton to having the same stereo in their $100,000 S500 as you can get in a Cobalt. Therefore, now you see Bang & Olusen, Linn, Dynaudio, and even Burmester! This is an interesting trend, not only for gearheads but as a barometer on the general buying public. Is it possible that Bose has become overexposed? Hmmm...

Meh. Bose, Yamaha, Apogee...who cares? As long as the owner is happy, more power to 'em.

[HAVIC]

That's an interesting analogy, Havic. The only thing that I counter is that to me, Apple's AAC format sounds a heckuva lot better than MP3. I've heard the same song encoded at 128 AAC on an iPod and then compared it to a 128 MP3 on a Samsung and it was horrid. I have no idea why it sounded so much better, but even the owner of the Sammy was surprised. In fact, he went out and bought an iPod later that week. Therefore, in that respect it at least lives up to it's perceived value.

I agree it does sound much better but if you take the time a encode everything to apples proprietary format and then you want to switch to a competitor you have to re-encode all your music. OOG or ogg vorbis is considered the best lossy format and mp3 the worst, it has to due with the algorithm they used to compress the music. If you notice apple only supports the crappy lossy formats and their own lossy, which is much better than the rest. So when your ipod dies you go out and buy another because you dread re-encoding your 150+ cd collection again.

[thekid]

GMichael-My apologies it was very early in the morn and my brain was just reving up. What I meant to say is that Bose and McDonalds are both mass marketers but the general public generally percieve Bose to be at or near the top within their field where as most people would not say McDonald's makes the best hamburgers.

HAVIC-Your nomination of ipod might not be too far off the mark. While shopping for a MP3 player for my daughter earlier in the year I had a lot of salesman pushing me toward the ipods versus the iriver or other competitors which were less expensive. Admittedly my knowledge of these products is even lower than my limited audio knowledge so maybe they had my best interest in mind. With my daughter and others in her age group ipod appears to have captured that "percieved value" market that Resident Loser mentioned earlier.
I wonder if in a few years we will hear about the salesmen pushing ipod because of the higher commision structure/profit margin that ipods have and that "patented" AAC technology in ipods is a ripoff of other technology..... etc....you know the drill.

Topspeed- interesting observation maybe over exposure will be the achilles heel for Bose and in the end its recognized strength in marketing will become its greatest weakness.

[Worf101]

...with all due respect, while that may be the case (although I seriously doubt Bose would need to plant a shill given their non-audiopile customer base), I must question your use of the word "indefensible"...

What do you find "indefensible"?

The fact that someone, somewhere...who actually isn't a marketing-smitten boob, might actually prefer a Bose product?

I've already voiced my reservations about some of their stuff...

Their pricing, while high, is based on their advertising costs AND the always-cited argument re: low cost of raw materials they use vs. pricing, isn't the only facet to take into consideration.

If you read any books on marketing/business strategies, one of the biggest arbiters of pricing is percieved value...why else would some cups of coffee cost upwards of $4, certain toiletries (which are mostly ionized or distilled water) cost a day's pay per ounce or specific brands of womens' shoes cost $600-800 a pair?

I object to their closed-loop systems for obvious reasons...but...the 3-2-1 system is unarguably the simplest approach for a psuedo-surround HT experience...The whole HT enchilada is predominantly based on the unreal boom and sizzle of my oft mentioned laser-totin' mechanical lizards, so this product just carries it to a logical (and obviously acceptable-by-a-part-of the-buying-public) conclusion...fun and fast, plug'n'play...cheez'n'crackers it's only tee-vee...and FWIW I find the sound produced, given the premise of HT in general, to be quite satisfying and otherwise technically interesting...

I also object to the single summing bass module of the Acoustimass/Lifestyle stuff...but I also have a problem with single summing subs in general...in saying that however, if set up properly (as any intelligent audio enthusiast would position the components) a reasonbly respectable presentation would result. Not to mention the "value" (perceived and otherwise) of the decorating/WAF...

And whilst on the subject, while I may be a bit of a Bose-O-phile, placement and positioning is certainly a big issue with most of their line...

I purchased my 901-IIs (MSRPd @$525/pr)in '75...based, in part, on what I found as strong, technical reasons...no woofers, no tweeters, no crossovers...just nine 4.5" full-range drivers with +/- 1/4in. excursion and the equivalent output of a 12" woofer, with none of the cone mass and potential for hangover, etc. The ususal counter to that I oftimes hear is the spec of a high distortion figure...I've never heard any distortion or degredation of sound attributable to such...P.S. In practice...like it or not, believe it or not, it works. Obviously anecdotal and included only FWIW (which I realize is zero!), I perceive it as smooth, crisp and tight, well-extended bass response, felt as well as heard.

I've gone through a bit of work to coax the best performance out of them, but not really much more than other's who are as serious about sound. When I moved into my house, I had to build a half-wall for the right speaker to do it's direct/reflect thing and balance out the dispersion pattern/soundfield produced. In addition to reasonable room tweaking, the SAE half-octave EQ I added before becoming lord of the manor, aided in further refining the sound...Having a Crown test disk, an SPL meter and a more-than-tolerant wife, many FR plots later, I had a system that was EQd from the stylus to my preferred listening position...I determined that, at least for me, flat wasn't where it was at, so I have incorporated a gentle roll-off of freqs above 8-10k which sounds more natural...it hands me a laff when I read the ol' party-line-mantra of "...no highs, no lows...it must be Bose..."

Then there's the 301s I used to use as rears when I was into the whole post-quad, ambience recovery phase or the 101s that were bracketed over my bed (and would whack me whenever I forgot they were there). 901s and 301s=excellent sonic match for surround, synthesized or otherwise...in fact the both EQd to a very simialr response curve...The 101s were compact and operating as near-field radiators, were nearly oblivious to room effects.

The over 30yr.-old 901s are still alive and kickin'...the 301s (victims of foam-rot) and 101s are no longer used...the bedroom now has a GPX CDP ($7 after rebate) plugged (via a RS adapter) into basic Wave radio (won in a non-audio retailers promotion-I would never pay that much for a clock-radio) which, when properly positioned, sounds quite good BTW...plus it has a small footprint and doesn't bop me noggin'...

I have often said, given the whole direct/reflecting aspect of the majority of Bose loudspeakers, a comparison with direct-radiator systems is simply untenable...neither sounds like the other, nor given their immense design differences, should they...I won't tell anyone what they should buy and I certainly don't tout Bose products...even though they have worked for me for over 30yrs. That is a decision that the individual should arrive at for themselves...you will either like them or you won't, but they are a completely different animal and must be appreciated and more importantly listened to, from a different perspective and with a different mindset.

jimHJJ(...and for some they just might be the "best"...)

Wait you took me wrong. I'm not in the "all Bose is crap" camp. I owned 901's in both the civilian and pro-audio incarnations. Not all Bose is bad. I think their H.T. systems are over priced garbage but that wasn't the point of my response... My comment were about the guys overzealous defense of Bose to the point where he would not respond to any "reasoned" debate. As other's pointed out he'd answer pointed, rational comments or questions with broadbased characterizations and dogma. That's what made me think he might have been a shill. I've dealt with plants and shills on other boards. I'm serious... company's know now that a products bad rep on boards can kill it with enthusiasts so they've taken this tack.

No I'm willing to listen to any "reasoned" opinion as my post history on this board has proven, but I'm skeptical of zealots of any stripe, why do you think I avoid Florian LOL!

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

[QUOTE=thekid]GMichael-My apologies it was very early in the morn and my brain was just reving up. What I meant to say is that Bose and McDonalds are both mass marketers but the general public generally percieve Bose to be at or near the top within their field where as most people would not say McDonald's makes the best hamburgers.

QUOTE]

No apologies needed. I figured that it was just a stray thought that wandered too far from the heard. So I attacked it like a jackle after a lost sheep.

But if it's OK, I'd like to throw in another twisted thought. If you were to ask 1000 kids from the ages of 3 to 13, "who makes the best burgers" you just might get a fair percentage of them saying McyD's. My twisted thought is that, the people who like Bose cube systems are beginers in the HT hobby. Much like these kids are new to good food. So that makes the McDonnalds idea a little closer to what you were looking for. Not many people who have actually tried better systems ever go back to Bose.

Not that I feel that Bose is crap. I still eat at McyD's once in a while too though.

[Resident Loser]

...no offense taken...just curious as to what you found "indefensible"...simply took the opportunity to post an open-letter more or less...

It's just every once in a while...well...

jimHJJ(...you know the drill...)

[armyscout42]

I owned bose 601's and 901's and enjoyed them back in the 80's, but i didn't have the opportunity to listen to high end. once you listen to high end, you aren't gonna turn back to bose if you are partially SANE! sure, there are loudspeakers far more overpriced than BOSE, but they are also far more qualitied in parts and design. Bose like many products are overhyped like NIKE SNEAKERS not speakers! You can get a nike sneakers for $10 in korea and buy it in england or U.S. for 100 pounds or dollars. The same with bose, you spend $4000 on cheap crappy lifestyle system, for that you can get MARTIN LOGANS or an entire AXIOM SYSTEM for a lot less or even get an excellent set of orbs, mirage, anthony gallos and kleggs. You talk about live sound, OHM blows away bose by miles or lightspeed. If you want affordable loudspeakers around $250, another option is FLUANCE, it's a decent canadian company that makes inexpensive good quality sound HT system. I got some SM-938 for my brother and he enjoys them. So much to choose from aside from bose. I'd rather get CHEAP SONY'S over bose, unless you plan on buying a bose 901 or 802's! those are ok if they were priced HALF of what they sell them for! if they sold 901's for $500, i don't think even the most critical among AUDIOPHILES would be so critical and bashing. THE ONLY SPEAKER COMPANY THAT MATCHES the controversy of bose is THEATER RESEARCH OR DOGG DIGITAL?

[emorphien]

Why are you CAPITALIZING so many THINGS?

[njspeer]

Wait you took me wrong. I'm not in the "all Bose is crap" camp. I owned 901's in both the civilian and pro-audio incarnations. Not all Bose is bad. I think their H.T. systems are over priced garbage but that wasn't the point of my response... My comment were about the guys overzealous defense of Bose to the point where he would not respond to any "reasoned" debate. As other's pointed out he'd answer pointed, rational comments or questions with broadbased characterizations and dogma. That's what made me think he might have been a shill. I've dealt with plants and shills on other boards. I'm serious... company's know now that a products bad rep on boards can kill it with enthusiasts so they've taken this tack.

No I'm willing to listen to any "reasoned" opinion as my post history on this board has proven, but I'm skeptical of zealots of any stripe, why do you think I avoid Florian LOL!

Da Worfster

Who are you calling a shill?

[JohnMichael]

Who are you calling a shill?



Most likely anyone exhibiting shill like behaviors.

[Worf101]

Who are you calling a shill?

I suspect any "nugget" with a low posting record, a combative attitude, an unrealistic and out of character love for any ONE product of possibly being a shill for a company. I didn't come to this attitude out of thin air. Companies have been caught and confessed to paying people to frequent forums to tout their products. You wouldn't be the first or the last if that is indeed what you are...

Da Worfster

[audio_dude]

Is this tread ever going to stop?

[markw]

Is this tread ever going to stop?not of this stuff keeps up.

what do you think?

[audio_dude]

-ahahahahahahaha-

shake,
rinse,
repeat,

-ahahahahahahaha-

[ThunderousBass]

OP: I was able to pick up a pair of Canton GL-260s recently (used) for $115. They are wonderful speakers if you can find them in good condition and for a good price. Any Canton bookshelf would be great for the setup you propose. I am glad you are no longer considering the Bose. You wouldn't be happy.

I got mine through Craigslist. Had to take the bus over to some stranger's house, and it was a little weird. He really didn't seem like he wanted to part with them. As soon as I verified they were in working order, I wanted to buy them and go, but he kept playing different pieces to show off different aspects of the sound. I have no idea why, if a guy liked his speakers so well, he would part with them. Funny enough, I had given a pair of mine away to my brother's kids and had regretted it ever since.

As you can see, there is a gentleman selling these speakers on the web for $795.

edit: www.componentaudio.com

[topspeed]

PLEASE, in that name of all that is holy, STOP BUMPING THIS THREAD!

Let it die...along with every other f**king Bose thread.

Move along, nothing to see here, move along...

[ThunderousBass]

Why did you just bump it, then?

[njspeer]

I suspect any "nugget" with a low posting record, a combative attitude, an unrealistic and out of character love for any ONE product of possibly being a shill for a company. I didn't come to this attitude out of thin air. Companies have been caught and confessed to paying people to frequent forums to tout their products. You wouldn't be the first or the last if that is indeed what you are...

Da Worfster

How does advocating buying a pair of 30 year old speakers for ~$300 help any company other than eBay or Craig's List? You don't really think I'm a shill. Calling me a shill is just the easy way out.

Just admit that I'm correct in my generalization of snobby, gullible, insecure, wine-and-cheese-party-having, silver-cable-buying audiophiles.

[JohnMichael]

How does advocating buying a pair of 30 year old speakers for ~$300 help any company other than eBay or Craig's List? You don't really think I'm a shill. Calling me a shill is just the easy way out.

Just admit that I'm correct in my generalization of snobby, gullible, insecure, wine-and-cheese-party-having, silver-cable-buying audiophiles.


Oh my you are at it again. Trying to have the last word. You sir are not correct.

[GMichael]

This is back again? njspeer, your comments about the people here only show that you have put the same amount of research into getting to know the people here as you have put into finding out what real audio is.

[njspeer]

This is back again? njspeer, your comments about the people here only show that you have put the same amount of research into getting to know the people here as you have put into finding out what real audio is.

"Real audio." ... "Real audio??" No sir, no snobbery on this board. I was way off basis on that one.

[emorphien]

"Real audio." ... "Real audio??" No sir, no snobbery on this board. I was way off basis on that one.
Snobbery is all about your perception. You happen to be backing a product that's almost impossible to rationalize if sound quality is the primary concern. And yet you're trying to. You've got an uphill battle you can't really win.

:17:

[GMichael]

"Real audio." ... "Real audio??" No sir, no snobbery on this board. I was way off basis on that one.

Once again, take a look at my system. The price tag is less than yours. So, I must be a snob because I took the time to find out that Bose is not what they claim to be and saved some cash? Wake up and smell the coffee. Or better yet, just go listen to something else. Are you afraid that we may all be right?

[L.J.]

Once again, take a look at my system. The price tag is less than yours. So, I must be a snob because I took the time to find out that Bose is not what they claim to be and saved some cash? Wake up and smell the coffee. Or better yet, just go listen to something else. Are you afraid that we may all be right?


:sleep: .............:Yawn:.............:sosp:........snif f, sniff........(OHHH, too much wine last night).....:Yawn:.......sniff.......(Hmm, smells like someone made coffee).........:)

[GMichael]

:sleep: .............:Yawn:.............:sosp:........snif f, sniff........(OHHH, too much wine last night).....:Yawn:.......sniff.......(Hmm, smells like someone made coffee).........:)

And french toast too. Like some?

[Resident Loser]

...I can't believe this thing is still breathin'...

jimHJJ(...better sound through research...)

[JohnMichael]

:sleep: .............:Yawn:.............:sosp:........snif f, sniff........(OHHH, too much wine last night).....:Yawn:.......sniff.......(Hmm, smells like someone made coffee).........:)



I also drank wine last night. It came from a box and my cables are copper.

[L.J.]

I also drank wine last night. It came from a box and my cables are copper.

Ah, but did you have cheese? This is were the problem starts......it's always that dang cheese!

[JohnMichael]

Ah, but did you have cheese? This is were the problem starts......it's always that dang cheese!


Busted, I had some cheddar and some fontina cheese. I was not in the mood for the stilton. You're right cheese is the root of the whole problem.

[GMichael]

Wine and cheese? You guys are snobs. I had oatmeal cookies and a brew. And my wires are basic copper. Vivila working class!

[JohnMichael]

Wine and cheese? You guys are snobs. I had oatmeal cookies and a brew. And my wires are basic copper. Vivila working class!


I only eat oatmeal cookies with Chardonnay. My cables are available in silver if I want to snob it up. Viva the underemployed.

[ChrisY]

Hi guys ! I know you're as tired of this thread as I am but I had to share with you what I won at a raffle . A brand new pair of Bose 301's:sad: . Anyway I sold them to my neighbor ( you know the one that said Bose are the best). He gave me 300 bucks cash for the pair and he's as happy as can be.He also apologized for ripping me off and called me a fool for giving them up for 150 bucks each . I feel so fortunate to get rid of them so easily.

[topspeed]

Dat der be kharma

[GMichael]

You can't make this stuff up.

[JohnMichael]

You can't make this stuff up.



Truth is stranger than fiction.