Magnepan - Still good?

[bubslewis]

Recently retired my old (ancient BOSE's) front speakers and am now looking for something new. Last time I seriously auditioned any speakers was in 1988. I recall that I really liked a pair of Magnepans (can't remember the model). They were a bit above my budget at the time, plus they were driving them with a monster high current amp which they recommended I should also purchase.

From all I've read, Magnepan still seems to be held in fairly high regard today. Any opinions?

Was looking at Magnepan MG 12 or MG 1.6's (and maybe a 3.6) on the internet. Would they require a super high current amp? Would something like an ADCOM 5400 (125W into 8 ohm, 200W into 4 ohm, fairly substantial current output) be sufficient?

Any feedback welcomed. Always like to have as much ammunition as possible before I go stick my neck out and listen to them.

thanks,
Bill

[E-Stat]

From all I've read, Magnepan still seems to be held in fairly high regard today. Any opinions?
You really need to hear a current pair for yourself with familiar music. I have thought they were something special since I first heard a pair of Tympani I-Us back in '74. Like all bipolars, however, they require some "breathing" room behind them to sound their best.

rw

[Mike Anderson]

I friggin' LOVE my 1.6's, and a lot of other people here will swear by them too. It's a truly impressive speaker for the money.

For the full effect, I think they do require a fair amount of current -- but quality is more important than quantity in many ways.

I should say, however, that there is a growing contigent of people over at Audio Asylum who are going with super-cheap (but very high power) pro-quality power amps like Behringer or QSC. You'd probably want a decent pre-amp with that, though, and you need a way to silence/replace the fan.

I can't speak to the Adcom you mention, never having tried it. But be aware that watt ratings are not always comparable across different manufacturers.

[bubslewis]

Thanks for feedback. Was planning (hoping) to use the pre-amp outputs from a Yamaha RX2500 A/V receiver into the amp for the Magnepans. I don't know how the pre-amp in the Yamaha stacks up against using a stand-alone preamp for the Magnepan

[accastil]

hi bubs,
yes indeed! maggies are really good..but only for a limited type of music. light jazz, classical and all those light and mellow music are a glory when listened to at maggies. but take note that maggies are not that impressive with more aggressive and bassful music such as rock, disco, pop, etc...and yes you are right, they require more powerful amps than box speakers. your yamaha receiver may not be enought to squeeze the juice out of them. why not audition Monitor Audio, Linn Ninka, Pro Ac, Triangle...they sound as good as maggies in my opinion and they will never fail to meet your expectations given any kind of music you would want to play. cheers!

[Florian]

Get the room, electronics and setup right and they will rock, hop, beat you and astound you. There is no speaker in the same price range that will give you more sound "QUALITY"

-Flo

PS: Regarding the amp, maggies will work fine with lower powered amps, but they need tons of current (not receiver) to shine. If interested in alternatives that improve upon them, let me know via PM. I had many maggies and loved them all.

[Mike Anderson]

hi bubs,
yes indeed! maggies are really good..but only for a limited type of music. light jazz, classical and all those light and mellow music are a glory when listened to at maggies. but take note that maggies are not that impressive with more aggressive and bassful music such as rock, disco, pop, etc..

I have to disagree there. Jazz/classical/acoustic make up only a small portion of my listening. I have tons of bass-heavy music, and the 1.6's do it gloriously. They just have to be positioned properly, and driven with enough current.

Too many people are drawing this conclusion based on: 1) what they heard at a dealer's where zero attention was paid to room position; or 2) the MMGs they heard, which do indeed lack some punch.

Properly setup 1.6's will definitely rock and pump out the bass. If you want even more thump, you can always add a subwoofer.

[Florian]

I disagree with that, and will try to explain why in my opinion which is purely based on sonics and has a complete disregard to looks and cuteness.
<o></o>
Before we start: Rock and POP music is not 100% bass….there is tons in the midrange, treble and it requires a fast, clean and dry bass to enjoy it. All which can easily be achieved by a planar speaker such as the Maggies. <o></o>
<o></o>
First we have to get rid of this generalisation of “planars”, I tried to explain this to RGA, Wooch. and others but usually failed. There are electrostatics like the Quads, Acoustats, Soundlabbs and Martin Logan CLS. Then there are planar magnetic speakers and planar magnetic hybrids such as the Magnepan’s, Analysis Audio. Then we have ribbons speakers, which there is only two companys that have made fullrange ribbon speakers that I am aware of which is Apogee Acoustics and Perigee. <o></o>
<o></o>
A planar speaker is a speaker which uses a large flat, thin diaphragm for a driver in a none-enclosed chassy, which radiates in a dipole or bipole configuration. <o></o>
<o></o>
Box speakers have very little area that actually moves air and needs the box and/or corners to generate any deep bass which introduces resonances from the box incl. coloration. You have a small driver with a magnet in the back, if you excurt the driver it bends around the corners and introduces distortion and the driver does not move like a piston. On a planar speaker the membrane is very light and moves almost not at all compared to a regular box driver. The magnets and the force over area is much greater which gives you more control of the driver itself.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you take a massive object like a soccer ball and try to move it with wind and the balls runs, then it will continue to run on its own much longer then if you blow on a feather. The problem is getting the cone to stop without any overhang. Planars do not have this problem. On a side note, this was tried to control by servo motors, lighter membranes and more control of the driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
Now on to the planar differences and why they are not created equal. Also here are some general missunderstanings. <o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans are NOT ribbon speakers. (See point A)<o></o>
Planars are bass shy and dynamically limited (See point B)<o></o>
Boxes can play louder<o></o><o></o>
But first of, what is a ribbon? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A ribbons is a single strip of a thin material (usually aluminium) suspended freely between two points (top and bottom) in a magnetic field. The current flows through the ribbon which counteracts with the magnetic field and vibrates and makes sound.<o></o>
<o></o>
What is a planar magnetic? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A planar magnetic is a sheet membrane suspended on all 4 sides, sitting in front, back or push pull configuration of a magnetic field. The foil (Myler in the case of the Maggies) has current carrying devices (copper rails on the Maggies) glued on to the surface. The current goes through the copper which is attached to the foil and interacts with the magnetic field which then moves the driver and makes sound. <o></o>
<o></o>
What is a QR? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A quassi ribbon are thin aluminium strips glued onto the mylar main surface which gets driven directly. The advantage is that it can move faster then the main mylar foil and its cheaper to make then a true ribbon.<o></o>
<o></o>


Magnepan Model Line-Up<o></o>



<o>
</o>

The MG12 is a small “planat magnetic” speaker with the “QR”, it used the main mylar foil for the bass and lower midrange, and uses the quassi ribbon as the upper midrage and tweeter driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 1.6 uses the same principle, but a bit larger. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 3.6, uses the Mylaer foil as a bass and midrange driver while using a true ribbon tweeter for the high frequencys. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 20 is interesting since it uses the mylar foil as a bass driver, the quassi ribbon on the midrange and a true ribbon as the tweeter. <o></o>
<o></o>
To give you all an example, I will compare these to my speakers and the technical differences. (I chose my own, because it’s the best for an example)<o></o>
<o></o>
The Apogee DIVA, Scintilla, Caliper, Duetta, Fullrange etc... use a true ribbon tweeter, true ribbon midrange and a single ended ribbon. Now I hear you saying, a “single ended ribbon”!?, well Apogee Acoustics uses the 100% same material for every single driver range. The bass system is ONLY fixed at the left and right side (not top to bottom) and damped at the top and bottom. The current moves through the ribbons and moves the drivers back and forth from the magnet array in the back.<o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans use a thick mylar foil glued with copper wires, which makes them very heavy compared to Quads, Soundlabs, Apogees, Acoustats and other planars. As we know, a moving mass is hard to stop once in motion. The midrange is connected onto the main mylar foil, which again is very thick and heavy and of course limits you on top end extension which is why the top model is more like a true ribbon design then the 3.6, 1.6 etc… The cost of making a true ribbon speaker is much more and their sensitivity to external sources is much greater (shipping, HIFI shop visitors etc) <o>
</o><o></o>
How does this effect the sound, well in my opinion a speaker as to be close to no sonic signature, no mass with a huge force control behind it, lack of coloration and has to get close to the normal radiation pattern of an instrument. Planar speakers can get very close to that, with a much greater ease then any box speaker on this planet. Have you ever wondered why the top end designs in this world use ribbons? Well, because they have no mass, huge control over them and no coloration. <o></o>
<o></o>
To move on, why do some people say that planars don’t have bass or are dynamically limited?<o></o>
<o></o>
A: The problem for most is the resonant frequency of the membrane. On a square design you will have a problem getting the resonant frequency low enough so you don’t hear them, or you enlarge the panel. The bass section of the MMG, MG/SE, MG12, MG1.6, MG3.6 and MG20.1 is identicall exept for SIZE. The larger they make them, the lower the RF and they get more extension. This is why Apogee uses a trapezoid,, (patented) which spreads the RF’s to a much larger are and lowers it which lets them go so low in the bass<o></o>
<o></o>
To give you some FACTS straight from an owner, the Apogee Scintilla does 24Hz before drop off in my room with extension to 19Hz, the DIVA does 23Hz before dropping with 1db down to 18Hz. With digital EQ I improved this even further. But you have to control the driver, each material has a certain resistance. The Magnepans are quite easy but requite vasts amount of power to get them going, and to improve the driver control which lowers their bass response and extension.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you do NOT feed them enough power, and if the amp flinches then you loose control of the membrane which limites you max spl and frequency response. Its all about what is driving them and how it drives it. <o></o>
<o></o>
Apogee’s love current and they are designed to carry 100A internally, they can eat a power amp for breakfast. To a side note, when people Apogees are difficult, they are full of it. The pure Aluminium drivers have a low resistance which means that the amp has to handle it. But they are quite efficient and its like driving a non variable changing resistor. EASY!! The Maggies are a bit similar but have more swings and their 4ohm load make them a bit hard, since most amps cannot deliver enough power into the 4ohm load. <o></o>
<o></o>
The room, plays a important part of the planar experience, you need sufficient time delay between the primary and secondary wave and give those speakers ROOM to breath. They move AIR, they don’t compress it in a box…they push and move the air around in your room.<o></o>
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->It is important that your speakers have ROOM…<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->Planars have no box, but the ROOM is their box<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->At a 4ohm load you needs loads of power to get enough control into the Maggies<o>
</o> <!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->They are much lighter faster then box drivers and lack the chassy, so feed them the best and esp. control! <o></o>
<o></o>
As a closing statement, Maggies are wonderfull. But they are not the end and a compromise in the planar world. Their membranes are too heavy, the 4ohm load impractical, and the drivers have different signatures. BUT they are lighter, faster, less colored and more revealing then any box counterparts below 10K.<o></o>
<o></o>
-Flo


Addon: Planars load the room more equally, which exites less room nodes and makes up for a more even in room responces. The DB drop off from a line source is far less then from a cone, dome system at 1.3m tall. You have no cabinet resonances, no driver mass, much controll and equal driver speeds and lack of coloration etc... all which make up for far MORE then if you miss the excited room nodes at 35Hz from box with cabinet resonances, high driver mass, room gain, room nodes, unequal sonic signatures etc....
<o></o>

[Florian]

I disagree with that, and will try to explain why in my opinion which is purely based on sonics and has a complete disregard to looks and cuteness.
<o></o>
Before we start: Rock and POP music is not 100% bass….there is tons in the midrange, treble and it requires a fast, clean and dry bass to enjoy it. All which can easily be achieved by a planar speaker such as the Maggies. <o></o>
<o></o>
First we have to get rid of this generalisation of “planars”, I tried to explain this to RGA, Wooch. and others but usually failed. There are electrostatics like the Quads, Acoustats, Soundlabbs and Martin Logan CLS. Then there are planat magnetic speakers and planat magnetic hybrids such as the Magnepan’s, Analysis Audio. Then we have ribbons speakers, which there is only two companys that have made fullrange ribbon speakers that I am aware of which is Apogee Acoustics and Perigee. <o></o>
<o></o>
A planar speaker is a speaker which uses a large flat, thin diaphragm for a driver in a none-enclosed chassy, which radiates in a dipole or bipole configuration. <o></o>
<o></o>
Box speakers have very little area that actually moves air and needs the box and/or corners to generate any deep bass which introduces resonances from the box incl. coloration. You have a small driver with a magnet in the back, if you excurt the driver it bends around the corners and introduces distortion and the driver does not move like a piston. On a planar speaker the membrane is very light and moves almost not at all compared to a regular box driver. The magnets and the force over area is much greater which gives you more control of the driver itself.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you take a massive object like a soccer ball and try to move it with wind and the balls runs, then it will continue to run on its own much longer then if you blow on a feather. The problem is getting the cone to stop without any overhang. Planars do not have this problem. On a side note, this was tried to control by servo motors, lighter membranes and more control of the driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
Now on to the planar differences and why they are not created equal. Also here are some general missunderstanings. <o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans are NOT ribbon speakers. (See point A)<o></o>
Planars are bass shy and dynamically limited (See point B)<o></o>
Boxes can play louder<o></o><o></o>
But first of, what is a ribbon? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A ribbons is a single strip of a thin material (usually aluminium) suspended freely between two points (top and bottom) in a magnetic field. The current flows through the ribbon which counteracts with the magnetic field and vibrates and makes sound.<o></o>
<o></o>
What is a planar magnetic? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A planar magnetic is a sheet membrane suspended on all 4 sides, sitting in front, back or push pull configuration of a magnetic field. The foil (Myler in the case of the Maggies) has current carrying devices (copper rails on the Maggies) glued on to the surface. The current goes through the copper which is attached to the foil and interacts with the magnetic field which then moves the driver and makes sound. <o></o>
<o></o>
What is a QR? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A quassi ribbon are thin aluminium strips glued onto the mylar main surface which gets driven directly. The advantage is that it can move faster then the main mylar foil and its cheaper to make then a true ribbon.<o></o>
<o></o>


Magnepan Model Line-Up<o></o>



<o>
</o>

The MG12 is a small “planat magnetic” speaker with the “QR”, it used the main mylar foil for the bass and lower midrange, and uses the quassi ribbon as the upper midrage and tweeter driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 1.6 uses the same principle, but a bit larger. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 3.6, uses the Mylaer foil as a bass and midrange driver while using a true ribbon tweeter for the high frequencys. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 20 is interesting since it uses the mylar foil as a bass driver, the quassi ribbon on the midrange and a true ribbon as the tweeter. <o></o>
<o></o>
To give you all an example, I will compare these to my speakers and the technical differences. (I chose my own, because it’s the best for an example)<o></o>
<o></o>
The Apogee DIVA, Scintilla, Caliper, Duetta, Fullrange etc... use a true ribbon tweeter, true ribbon midrange and a single ended ribbon. Now I hear you saying, a “single ended ribbon”!?, well Apogee Acoustics uses the 100% same material for every single driver range. The bass system is ONLY fixed at the left and right side (not top to bottom) and damped at the top and bottom. The current moves through the ribbons and moves the drivers back and forth from the magnet array in the back.<o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans use a thick mylar foil glued with copper wires, which makes them very heavy compared to Quads, Soundlabs, Apogees, Acoustats and other planars. As we know, a moving mass is hard to stop once in motion. The midrange is connected onto the main mylar foil, which again is very thick and heavy and of course limits you on top end extension which is why the top model is more like a true ribbon design then the 3.6, 1.6 etc… The cost of making a true ribbon speaker is much more and their sensitivity to external sources is much greater (shipping, HIFI shop visitors etc) <o>
</o><o></o>
How does this effect the sound, well in my opinion a speaker as to be close to no sonic signature, no mass with a huge force control behind it, lack of coloration and has to get close to the normal radiation pattern of an instrument. Planar speakers can get very close to that, with a much greater ease then any box speaker on this planet. Have you ever wondered why the top end designs in this world use ribbons? Well, because they have no mass, huge control over them and no coloration. <o></o>
<o></o>
To move on, why do some people say that planars don’t have bass or are dynamically limited?<o></o>
<o></o>
A: The problem for most is the resonant frequency of the membrane. On a square design you will have a problem getting the resonant frequency low enough so you don’t hear them, or you enlarge the panel. The bass section of the MMG, MG/SE, MG12, MG1.6, MG3.6 and MG20.1 is identicall exept for SIZE. The larger they make them, the lower the RF and they get more extension. This is why Apogee uses a trapezoid,, (patented) which spreads the RF’s to a much larger are and lowers it which lets them go so low in the bass<o></o>
<o></o>
To give you some FACTS straight from an owner, the Apogee Scintilla does 24Hz before drop off in my room with extension to 19Hz, the DIVA does 23Hz before dropping with 1db down to 18Hz. With digital EQ I improved this even further. But you have to control the driver, each material has a certain resistance. The Magnepans are quite easy but requite vasts amount of power to get them going, and to improve the driver control which lowers their bass response and extension.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you do NOT feed them enough power, and if the amp flinches then you loose control of the membrane which limites you max spl and frequency response. Its all about what is driving them and how it drives it. <o></o>
<o></o>
Apogee’s love current and they are designed to carry 100A internally, they can eat a power amp for breakfast. To a side note, when people Apogees are difficult, they are full of it. The pure Aluminium drivers have a low resistance which means that the amp has to handle it. But they are quite efficient and its like driving a non variable changing resistor. EASY!! The Maggies are a bit similar but have more swings and their 4ohm load make them a bit hard, since most amps cannot deliver enough power into the 4ohm load. <o></o>
<o></o>
The room, plays a important part of the planar experience, you need sufficient time delay between the primary and secondary wave and give those speakers ROOM to breath. They move AIR, they don’t compress it in a box…they push and move the air around in your room.<o></o>
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->It is important that your speakers have ROOM…<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->Planars have no box, but the ROOM is their box<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->At a 4ohm load you needs loads of power to get enough control into the Maggies<o>
</o> <!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->They are much lighter faster then box drivers and lack the chassy, so feed them the best and esp. control! <o></o>
<o></o>
As a closing statement, Maggies are wonderfull. But they are not the end and a compromise in the planar world. Their membranes are too heavy, the 4ohm load impractical, and the drivers have different signatures. BUT they are lighter, faster, less colored and more revealing then any box counterparts below 10K.<o></o>
<o></o>
-Flo<o></o>

[GMichael]

I disagree with that, and will try to explain why in my opinion which is purely based on sonics and has a complete disregard to looks and cuteness.
<o></o>
Before we start: Rock and POP music is not 100% bass….there is tons in the midrange, treble and it requires a fast, clean and dry bass to enjoy it. All which can easily be achieved by a planar speaker such as the Maggies. <o></o>
<o></o>
First we have to get rid of this generalisation of “planars”, I tried to explain this to RGA, Wooch. and others but usually failed. There are electrostatics like the Quads, Acoustats, Soundlabbs and Martin Logan CLS. Then there are planat magnetic speakers and planat magnetic hybrids such as the Magnepan’s, Analysis Audio. Then we have ribbons speakers, which there is only two companys that have made fullrange ribbon speakers that I am aware of which is Apogee Acoustics and Perigee. <o></o>
<o></o>
A planar speaker is a speaker which uses a large flat, thin diaphragm for a driver in a none-enclosed chassy, which radiates in a dipole or bipole configuration. <o></o>
<o></o>
Box speakers have very little area that actually moves air and needs the box and/or corners to generate any deep bass which introduces resonances from the box incl. coloration. You have a small driver with a magnet in the back, if you excurt the driver it bends around the corners and introduces distortion and the driver does not move like a piston. On a planar speaker the membrane is very light and moves almost not at all compared to a regular box driver. The magnets and the force over area is much greater which gives you more control of the driver itself.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you take a massive object like a soccer ball and try to move it with wind and the balls runs, then it will continue to run on its own much longer then if you blow on a feather. The problem is getting the cone to stop without any overhang. Planars do not have this problem. On a side note, this was tried to control by servo motors, lighter membranes and more control of the driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
Now on to the planar differences and why they are not created equal. Also here are some general missunderstanings. <o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans are NOT ribbon speakers. (See point A)<o></o>
Planars are bass shy and dynamically limited (See point B)<o></o>
Boxes can play louder<o></o><o></o>
But first of, what is a ribbon? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A ribbons is a single strip of a thin material (usually aluminium) suspended freely between two points (top and bottom) in a magnetic field. The current flows through the ribbon which counteracts with the magnetic field and vibrates and makes sound.<o></o>
<o></o>
What is a planar magnetic? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A planar magnetic is a sheet membrane suspended on all 4 sides, sitting in front, back or push pull configuration of a magnetic field. The foil (Myler in the case of the Maggies) has current carrying devices (copper rails on the Maggies) glued on to the surface. The current goes through the copper which is attached to the foil and interacts with the magnetic field which then moves the driver and makes sound. <o></o>
<o></o>
What is a QR? <o></o>
<o></o>
A: A quassi ribbon are thin aluminium strips glued onto the mylar main surface which gets driven directly. The advantage is that it can move faster then the main mylar foil and its cheaper to make then a true ribbon.<o></o>
<o></o>


Magnepan Model Line-Up<o></o>



<o>
</o>

The MG12 is a small “planat magnetic” speaker with the “QR”, it used the main mylar foil for the bass and lower midrange, and uses the quassi ribbon as the upper midrage and tweeter driver. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 1.6 uses the same principle, but a bit larger. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 3.6, uses the Mylaer foil as a bass and midrange driver while using a true ribbon tweeter for the high frequencys. <o></o>
<o></o>
The MG 20 is interesting since it uses the mylar foil as a bass driver, the quassi ribbon on the midrange and a true ribbon as the tweeter. <o></o>
<o></o>
To give you all an example, I will compare these to my speakers and the technical differences. (I chose my own, because it’s the best for an example)<o></o>
<o></o>
The Apogee DIVA, Scintilla, Caliper, Duetta, Fullrange etc... use a true ribbon tweeter, true ribbon midrange and a single ended ribbon. Now I hear you saying, a “single ended ribbon”!?, well Apogee Acoustics uses the 100% same material for every single driver range. The bass system is ONLY fixed at the left and right side (not top to bottom) and damped at the top and bottom. The current moves through the ribbons and moves the drivers back and forth from the magnet array in the back.<o></o>
<o></o>
Magnepans use a thick mylar foil glued with copper wires, which makes them very heavy compared to Quads, Soundlabs, Apogees, Acoustats and other planars. As we know, a moving mass is hard to stop once in motion. The midrange is connected onto the main mylar foil, which again is very thick and heavy and of course limits you on top end extension which is why the top model is more like a true ribbon design then the 3.6, 1.6 etc… The cost of making a true ribbon speaker is much more and their sensitivity to external sources is much greater (shipping, HIFI shop visitors etc) <o>
</o><o></o>
How does this effect the sound, well in my opinion a speaker as to be close to no sonic signature, no mass with a huge force control behind it, lack of coloration and has to get close to the normal radiation pattern of an instrument. Planar speakers can get very close to that, with a much greater ease then any box speaker on this planet. Have you ever wondered why the top end designs in this world use ribbons? Well, because they have no mass, huge control over them and no coloration. <o></o>
<o></o>
To move on, why do some people say that planars don’t have bass or are dynamically limited?<o></o>
<o></o>
A: The problem for most is the resonant frequency of the membrane. On a square design you will have a problem getting the resonant frequency low enough so you don’t hear them, or you enlarge the panel. The bass section of the MMG, MG/SE, MG12, MG1.6, MG3.6 and MG20.1 is identicall exept for SIZE. The larger they make them, the lower the RF and they get more extension. This is why Apogee uses a trapezoid,, (patented) which spreads the RF’s to a much larger are and lowers it which lets them go so low in the bass<o></o>
<o></o>
To give you some FACTS straight from an owner, the Apogee Scintilla does 24Hz before drop off in my room with extension to 19Hz, the DIVA does 23Hz before dropping with 1db down to 18Hz. With digital EQ I improved this even further. But you have to control the driver, each material has a certain resistance. The Magnepans are quite easy but requite vasts amount of power to get them going, and to improve the driver control which lowers their bass response and extension.<o></o>
<o></o>
If you do NOT feed them enough power, and if the amp flinches then you loose control of the membrane which limites you max spl and frequency response. Its all about what is driving them and how it drives it. <o></o>
<o></o>
Apogee’s love current and they are designed to carry 100A internally, they can eat a power amp for breakfast. To a side note, when people Apogees are difficult, they are full of it. The pure Aluminium drivers have a low resistance which means that the amp has to handle it. But they are quite efficient and its like driving a non variable changing resistor. EASY!! The Maggies are a bit similar but have more swings and their 4ohm load make them a bit hard, since most amps cannot deliver enough power into the 4ohm load. <o></o>
<o></o>
The room, plays a important part of the planar experience, you need sufficient time delay between the primary and secondary wave and give those speakers ROOM to breath. They move AIR, they don’t compress it in a box…they push and move the air around in your room.<o></o>
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->It is important that your speakers have ROOM…<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->Planars have no box, but the ROOM is their box<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->At a 4ohm load you needs loads of power to get enough control into the Maggies<o>
</o> <!--[if !supportLists]-->·<!--[endif]-->They are much lighter faster then box drivers and lack the chassy, so feed them the best and esp. control! <o></o>
<o></o>
As a closing statement, Maggies are wonderfull. But they are not the end and a compromise in the planar world. Their membranes are too heavy, the 4ohm load impractical, and the drivers have different signatures. BUT they are lighter, faster, less colored and more revealing then any box counterparts below 10K.<o></o>
<o></o>
-Flo<o></o>

But will they play hip hop?

[Kaboom]

LOOOOOOOOOL
what about nu-metal?

[Feanor]

[quote=bubslewis]
....
From all I've read, Magnepan still seems to be held in fairly high regard today. Any opinions?

Was looking at Magnepan MG 12 or MG 1.6's (and maybe a 3.6) on the internet. Would they require a super high current amp? Would something like an ADCOM 5400 (125W into 8 ohm, 200W into 4 ohm, fairly substantial current output) be sufficient?
...
/quote]

No better speaker under US$2000 than the MG 1.6QR. Especially for accoustic music nothing else can do the same thing -- air, transparency & detail but smooth and effortless; there-in-the-room reproduction. But there might be better choice is you need to play rock music very loud.

As for any Magneplanar -- or any dipole speaker -- placement can be an issue but it's not as big a problem as some people make out. Sufficient power is necesary: 100 watts/ch @ 4 ohms pretty much the minimum for decent volume in a medium room.

[bubslewis]

[quote=bubslewis]
....
From all I've read, Magnepan still seems to be held in fairly high regard today. Any opinions?

Was looking at Magnepan MG 12 or MG 1.6's (and maybe a 3.6) on the internet. Would they require a super high current amp? Would something like an ADCOM 5400 (125W into 8 ohm, 200W into 4 ohm, fairly substantial current output) be sufficient?
...
/quote]

No better speaker under US$2000 than the MG 1.6QR. Especially for accoustic music nothing else can do the same thing -- air, transparency & detail but smooth and effortless; there-in-the-room reproduction. But there might be better choice is you need to play rock music very loud.

As for any Magneplanar -- or any dipole speaker -- placement can be an issue but it's not as big a problem as some people make out. Sufficient power is necesary: 100 watts/ch @ 4 ohms pretty much the minimum for decent volume in a medium room.

Thanks for feedback. I'm not a bass freak and loud rock music will only be occasional at best. Also have a modest 100W self powered sub to help out if needed. Have a fairly rectangular 17' x 26' room which will allow placement about 3 ft out from back wall and 4 -5 ft. from side walls.

I think my ADCOM amp will be sufficient..... not great, but sufficient. Next chore: break it to the wife.Then to the "Listening Room" in Baltimore (closest dealer) to listen to them. Oh boy oh boy.

[Woochifer]

Thanks for feedback. I'm not a bass freak and loud rock music will only be occasional at best. Also have a modest 100W self powered sub to help out if needed. Have a fairly rectangular 17' x 26' room which will allow placement about 3 ft out from back wall and 4 -5 ft. from side walls.

I think my ADCOM amp will be sufficient..... not great, but sufficient. Next chore: break it to the wife.Then to the "Listening Room" in Baltimore (closest dealer) to listen to them. Oh boy oh boy.

Your room seems like a good size for the Maggies. Hopefully, they'll pass aesthetic muster with the wife, because the 1.6s are fairly large and sound optimal with a fair amount of space behind them.

But, definitely try the 1.6 with your amp before you decide. If you can't borrow the speakers for home audition, you should bring your amp to the dealer and hook it up to their demo rig. I heard the 1.6 with an Adcom amp (I believe it was the GFA-5500), and the sound started to audibly compress when it reached moderately high levels. Whether limitations with the amp or the speaker were the culprit, that combination did not work well once I turned the volume above my normal listening levels. At normal listening levels and with acoustic music, the 1.6s sounded quite good. With amplified instruments and at higher than normal levels, the results were less than ideal IMO.

[RGA]

I agree with Woochifer -- the speakers will heavily compress at what I consider decent volume levels -- but for lower volumes to mid volumes the 1.6 is tough to beat --- it does many very intriguing things in this price range. The Adcom should easily have enough power to drive any of the maggies you are discussing. As usual the best thing to do is listen -- what I find a necessity in volume level you may find loud and unecessary then again if you like trance a small scale club levels then chances are you will be looking for soemthing else -- but the 1.6 is one of the better speakers in this price range -- and that is worth a listen.

[Florian]

Go figure, the factless, non-experienced, planar bashing group just made an arival....enjoy :17:

[Bernd]

If you take a massive object like a soccer ball and try to move it with wind and the balls runs, then it will continue to run on its own much longer then if you blow on a feather. The problem is getting the cone to stop without any overhang.(Quote)

I thought I put my 2ct in.

I do like the example given by Florian. There is however one important factor missing from it.The cone (soccerball) and the feather (ribbon,foil,etc) are all attached to the speaker.You would have to attach the soccerball to a rubber line and the feather to some sort of frame. A correctly designed cone will stop dead when the signal demands it. Again it's quality that dictates the outcome here.

Just as a quick footnote. I experienced a superbly sounding speaker ( Soundlab A-1, driven by Musical Fidelity X-A200 mono blocks and a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista pre) yesterday at a clients house. I spotted it through a small gap in a room opposite from where we sat. And he was ever so pleased to let me listen.
Let me say from the begining -Bass- no problem. Plenty,articulate and tight. I really enjoyed my time listening to the Soundlabs.We had Deep Purple-Made in Japan, Bob Marley-Exodus,etc. The most important thing for me was that I enjoyed the music as much as I do through my ART Emotions. True the presentation is slightly different, maybe a bit more airy but also a little less natural, but those where minor facts. Could I live with them? Yes absolutly.Are they "better" then mine? That's not really the issue I believe. I loved the music being played through them. Would I swap them for mine? No, I like mine better.
So I am pleased I am not a full range planar virgin anymore. I can honestly see the attraction in them now.
So if you have the room and are on the upgrade trail I would seriously consider a panel speaker. But as was said before "No speaker is created equal".Auditioning is the key.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[Florian]

Mmmh, now wait till you hear the A1's with a good amp. The XA-200 is good, but not good enough for the A1. You should suggest some Einstein OTL's for them and literraly see the magic and warthm. Like i said, bass is not an issue, neither is chamber resonance or driver curving, integration etc.....

Bernd has speakers costing over 10K, now let me ask you this. Name me one speaker below 10K that has the resoution, speed, integration, lack of coloration, lack of chamber resonance like the 1.6 Maggie?

Thats right...

Keep on rocking! :cornut:

PS: Why does Bernd get the integration? Simple, ONLY TWO DRIVERS, DEAD chassy etc...with tubes. You wont find any box in the 1.6 range and a few thousands on top of that which more realitically produces music.

[GMichael]

Bernd has speakers costing over 10K, now let me ask you this. Name me one speaker below 10K that has the resoution, speed, integration, lack of coloration, lack of chamber resonance like the 1.6 Maggie?

.

Oooh oooh oooh, I know, I know. Let me guess. Could it be the 3.6's? Ha! Didn't think I knew did ya?

I like the Totems too though. Sure, they may be colored. But I liked their color.

[Florian]

Oooh oooh oooh, I know, I know. Let me guess. Could it be the 3.6's? Ha! Didn't think I knew did ya?

I like the Totems too though. Sure, they may be colored. But I liked their color.

But the 3.6 aint a box ;-)

Its perfectly normal to like box speakers, i have some too in my place. I am fighting against the idiots who spread lies and non-facts about my prefered type of speaker. I get just as angry at them for telling crap about planars then they get angry at me for telling them that B&W, Paradigm etc...is all junk. I'd rather listen to a transistor radio :)

[GMichael]

But the 3.6 aint a box ;-)

Its perfectly normal to like box speakers, i have some too in my place. I am fighting against the idiots who spread lies and non-facts about my prefered type of speaker. I get just as angry at them for telling crap about planars then they get angry at me for telling them that B&W, Paradigm etc...is all junk. I'd rather listen to a transistor radio :)

Oh, sorry Flo. Didn't mean to rev you up. I was just joking with ya man.

You do know that the others are not really idiots right? They just disagree with you. And they like yanking your chain.

[Florian]

Oh, sorry Flo. Didn't mean to rev you up. I was just joking with ya man.

You do know that the others are not really idiots right? They just disagree with you. And they like yanking your chain.

I know that :-)

I know that some are not idiots, but i am serious about the transistor radio :)

[Woochifer]

Go figure, the factless, non-experienced, planar bashing group just made an arival....enjoy :17:

Right, relaying my own first-hand listening experiences with a Maggie 1.6/Adcom combination, praising them for normal-level acoustic music, and telling somebody to listen to that combination before they buy is "factless, non-experienced, planar bashing." :rolleyes:

[Florian]

Sorry, dont read your replys. I told you that MONTH ago, but i am sure someday you will understand. People are already ignoring your idiotic planar and high end bashing posts. Its a good start to get more people to hunt the musical joy instead of the best buy of the week.

[Mike Anderson]

I agree with Woochifer -- the speakers will heavily compress at what I consider decent volume levels

In the interests of accuracy, Woochifer said this about the Adcom driving the 1.6s.

I've never tried driving mine with an Adcom, but with my amp they do very well at high volumes.

[Florian]

In the interests of accuracy, Woochifer said this about the Adcom driving the 1.6s.

I've never tried driving mine with an Adcom, but with my amp they do very well at high volumes.
Dont bother Mike, like i said many times before its the idiotic uninformed writing from Wooch RGA and others and their typical bashing of non-box speakers. Your amp has plenty of power and the Adcoms are OK, but not good enough for the Maggies. Bryston is also a bad match, same as McIntosh.

PS: RGA's Audio Notes will distort at a 5m distance at the max spl of the 1.6 without the room gain, which introduces a whacked frequency responce, time delay errors and unequal room loading. Wooch paradigms are ok, but nowhere close the 1.6 in absolutly no regard exept maybe that they are cuter. You have almost a line source, so much less db drop off over distance.

[bubslewis]

I would not term it "planar bashing". They were very good comments from both Mike and WOOCHIFER as far as helping me with things to watch out for. But although I can't match up to Florian's grad school level knowledge (and equipment) of planar/ribbon speaker technology, I thought his detailed essay on the subject was quite informative.

OK, enough compliments for the combatants. Let's say I do purchase a pair of 1.6's. And let's say that at some point I notice audible compression at some level of sound that may be in my listening volume range.

I would look at my ADCOM amp and say "it's you", rather than the speakers. In my limited knowledge of electronics I'm pretty sure that current does not equate with wattage. Theoretically a 50 watt amp could produce a higher current than a 200 watt amp. But I also assume that, in general, the higher the wattage is in an amp the more likely that the current delivery is also higher.

Most every amplifier lists its wattage output, such as "200 watts into 4 ohms". But I don't see any "current" specifications listed. I'm not even sure there is an applicable unit of measure for current. But that leaves me with trying to figure out what ADCOMS "large capacitors for improved current delivery" means or the fact that Behringer uses "high current toroidal transformers" This doesn't tell me anything in regard to whether the amp will produce enough to satisfy my speakers.

Seems to me that Mike would be right that a higher power amp like the Behringer EP 1500 amp (2 x 700 watts into 2 ohms) would give me a greater chance for success than my ADCOM 5400. And the Behringer is going for under $300 to boot.

[Geoffcin]

Right, relaying my own first-hand listening experiences with a Maggie 1.6/Adcom combination, praising them for normal-level acoustic music, and telling somebody to listen to that combination before they buy is "factless, non-experienced, planar bashing." :rolleyes:

I think the compression you've experienced with these speakers is mostly due to the amp not being able to slew enough current. If you want the 1.6's to go over 100dB then a 200 wpc+ (8 ohms) amp is a better bet. You will get compression (lose linearity) out of them past 105 dB, but that's with a kW or more going into them. At that point they become the worlds loudest radiators (heating).

[Woochifer]

I would not term it "planar bashing". They were very good comments from both Mike and WOOCHIFER as far as helping me with things to watch out for. But although I can't match up to Florian's grad school level knowledge (and equipment) of planar/ribbon speaker technology, I thought his detailed essay on the subject was quite informative.

OK, enough compliments for the combatants. Let's say I do purchase a pair of 1.6's. And let's say that at some point I notice audible compression at some level of sound that may be in my listening volume range.

I would look at my ADCOM amp and say "it's you", rather than the speakers. In my limited knowledge of electronics I'm pretty sure that current does not equate with wattage. Theoretically a 50 watt amp could produce a higher current than a 200 watt amp. But I also assume that, in general, the higher the wattage is in an amp the more likely that the current delivery is also higher.

Most every amplifier lists its wattage output, such as "200 watts into 4 ohms". But I don't see any "current" specifications listed. I'm not even sure there is an applicable unit of measure for current. But that leaves me with trying to figure out what ADCOMS "large capacitors for improved current delivery" means or the fact that Behringer uses "high current toroidal transformers" This doesn't tell me anything in regard to whether the amp will produce enough to satisfy my speakers.

Seems to me that Mike would be right that a higher power amp like the Behringer EP 1500 amp (2 x 700 watts into 2 ohms) would give me a greater chance for success than my ADCOM 5400. And the Behringer is going for under $300 to boot.

As you've noticed, some people define "bashing" differently than others. Then again, Flo claims not to read my posts anyway. :D

Ultimately, the proof will be in the listening. Specs can only go so far in projecting how a specific speaker/amp combination will sound. The only way to be certain over any causal effects would be to bring your Adcom amp with you should you decide to do a dealer demo room listening.

If the 1.6/Adcom combo sounds less than satisfactory at your upper listening range, then you should check with the dealer on any other amps they would pair with the 1.6 and can hook up for you. If a different amp combination gives you more satisfactory results, then you got yourself a dilemma -- is the sound quality of the Maggie 1.6 worth investing in a new amp to go along with the cost of new speakers? Or should you take that combined budget for the 1.6 + new amp, and apply it to a higher priced speaker that might work better with your current amp?

Since your last foray into speaker auditions was back in 1988, you got some catching up to do. The sound quality of speakers at the lower price points has generally improved a lot since that time. If you enjoyed the more iconoclastic and contrasting "company" approaches that produced the vintage "West Coast," "New England," and "British" sounds, the newer speakers might disappoint you because they tend to sound more similar than before. But, that's because newer speakers (especially in the more affordable price points) generally sound more accurate than they did 20 years ago, and there aren't nearly as many truly bad speakers with gross inaccuracies as before.

Magneplanars have built a very good reputation, and were the most commonly owned speakers among Stereophile readers in a subscriber poll they did a few years ago. But, you're the only one that can decide whether they're right for you, and that will depend on your preferences, how you intend to use those speakers, and whether they fit with your room/lifestyle.

Always good to do as many listenings as you can stand, and there's plenty out there to listen to. Just make sure that you try them at home before you decide.

[Geoffcin]

Seems to me that Mike would be right that a higher power amp like the Behringer EP 1500 amp (2 x 700 watts into 2 ohms) would give me a greater chance for success than my ADCOM 5400. And the Behringer is going for under $300 to boot.

And not just for planar speakers. Any speaker that presents a load to the amp that falls below the spec where the amp can handle the current will suffer from compression. Many top speaker designs drop to 3 ohms or lower at one point.

A for instance;

At this resistance (3 ohms) the same voltage is TWICE the current draw than at 6 ohms. If the amp cannot produce this double amount of current into the 3 ohm load then it will compress the signal. You might hear it as the amp/speakers "lacking bass" or having a lack of punch, but hook the same amp up to a set of speakers with a less demanding load and the amp sounds fine.

A good way to think about it is that the amp/speakers are a closed system not independant of each other. The best amps usually sound good with mostly all speakers, but some very good ones also need to be matched with the proper speakers.

[Feanor]

...
If the 1.6/Adcom combo sounds less than satisfactory at your upper listening range, then you should check with the dealer on any other amps they would pair with the 1.6 and can hook up for you. If a different amp combination gives you more satisfactory results, then you got yourself a dilemma -- is the sound quality of the Maggie 1.6 worth investing in a new amp to go along with the cost of new speakers? Or should you take that combined budget for the 1.6 + new amp, and apply it to a higher priced speaker that might work better with your current amp?

.....

I'd wager that your Adcom has plenty of power for the MG 1.6's in your room at anything but insane volumes.

But in the unlikely event that it does not, the 1.6's will match well with amps of higher power and higher price. In general I suggest people put more of their $$$ in the speaker than the amp, but that doesn't apply when the speaker is a Maggy. My Bel Canto eVo2i integrated cost $3000 and money was well spent. By the way, if I were looking for a new, powerful amp, I'd check out the Bel Canto e.One S300 power amp. It's an ICEpower-based digital: 300 wt/ch @ 4 ohms, $1400 :yikes: Holy mackerel! See the 6 Moons review here ... http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/eone/s300.html

[bubslewis]

Thank you.
Looks like I was wrong about most amps not listing "current" specifications. Seems like the low end and moderate ones don't, but the higher end ones do, mostly in amps at a given decible level.

"Very loud" classical music peaks at about 100 db, averages about 95. Very loud rock peaks at about 105 db. What exactly "loud" means differs from person to person, but I'm guessing that my ADCOM might hold on up to somewhere in the mid 90's, which might be enough for me in that size room.

Trouble is I just bought the friggin' ADCOM very recently. But I agree with you also that one shouldn't spend more on an amplifier than on the speakers. I'm wondering how to explain it to the wife. "Well dear, I need a better amp than the one I just bought and, by the way, it'll cost at least 3 times as much." We shall see.

Was looking at the Behringer amps wondering why such powerful amps were so cheap. Looks like they are designed for loud speaker, rock band type applications. Kinda strange that some are using them to power maggies.

[Woochifer]

Thank you.
Looks like I was wrong about most amps not listing "current" specifications. Seems like the low end and moderate ones don't, but the higher end ones do, mostly in amps at a given decible level.

"Very loud" classical music peaks at about 100 db, averages about 95. Very loud rock peaks at about 105 db. What exactly "loud" means differs from person to person, but I'm guessing that my ADCOM might hold on up to somewhere in the mid 90's, which might be enough for me in that size room.

Trouble is I just bought the friggin' ADCOM very recently. But I agree with you also that one shouldn't spend more on an amplifier than on the speakers. I'm wondering how to explain it to the wife. "Well dear, I need a better amp than the one I just bought and, by the way, it'll cost at least 3 times as much." We shall see.

Was looking at the Behringer amps wondering why such powerful amps were so cheap. Looks like they are designed for loud speaker, rock band type applications. Kinda strange that some are using them to power maggies.

Well, you're just at the start of the process, so no sense in getting jittery or buyer's remorse over your amp until you're sure that the Maggies are the speakers that you want. There are plenty of speakers out there that you haven't heard yet, and it's far from a done deal that you'll like the Maggies the best. Until you actually try your amp with the 1.6, you don't even know if you'll actually need a new one.

Relax and enjoy the process. You're not supposed to stress out until you start finding stuff that you like and checking the price tags against your credit limit!

[Florian]

A good cost effictive solution is if you build yourself ZAP amps for the bass, (digital, 700wpc) and use a good tube hybrid on the quassi ribbon.

:6:

PS: Planars (electrostats, ribbons, planar magnetic etc..) are all VERY sensitive to whats driving them and where they stand. I can give you many great pointers.

[Feanor]

.
...
"Very loud" classical music peaks at about 100 db, averages about 95. Very loud rock peaks at about 105 db. What exactly "loud" means differs from person to person, but I'm guessing that my ADCOM might hold on up to somewhere in the mid 90's, which might be enough for me in that size room.

Trouble is I just bought the friggin' ADCOM very recently. But I agree with you also that one shouldn't spend more on an amplifier than on the speakers. I'm wondering how to explain it to the wife. "Well dear, I need a better amp than the one I just bought and, by the way, it'll cost at least 3 times as much." We shall see.

....

Though I respect Wooch very much, I think he is being pessimistic that you will need an amp other than the ADCOM with MG 1.6's anytime soon. If you do get the upgrade urge I'd say it would be for better quality rather more power.

I do assume you listen at reasonable levels. Frankly I never listen to music at an average level greater than 85 dB; usually it's less than 75 dB. An average level of 95 dB for classical in your living room is ridiculous, IMO.

For a few weeks I drove Maggies with my Harmon Kardon 330A receiver. That unit was bought around 1972 and puts out maybe 35 watts/ch. The sound was thoroughly enjoyable for 95% of listening.

[Geoffcin]

I do assume you listen at reasonable levels. Frankly I never listen to music at an average level greater than 85 dB; usually it's less than 75 dB. An average level of 95 dB for classical in your living room is ridiculous, IMO.

For a few weeks I drove Maggies with my Harmon Kardon 330A receiver. That unit was bought around 1972 and puts out maybe 35 watts/ch. The sound was thoroughly enjoyable for 95% of listening.

For max sustained level; 85 dB seems about right to me too. And even this is only when I'm playing a concert DVD. Sure the occasional peak to 95dB is in there, but listening at a 95dB average is auditory suicide.

Just for giggles I'm going to hook up my 15watt T-amp to the maggies later to see if I can get them to play. As silly as it sounds, this $29.95 amp sounded great hooked up to my big CSW T500 floorstanders.

[cruzin]

I use my Maggies(3.6's,MMGW's and an MMGC) for both music and HT.

Given the correct amplification,Maggies will rock with the best,and still play sweetly when required.

[bubslewis]

Feanor, Geoffcin
Thanks, that's the kind of talk I love to hear! Not sure I'm ready (either technically or financially) for Florian style upgrade just yet.

And Woocihfer, I promise to be as unbiased and neutral as possible. The first place I'm going to carries a pretty good selection of some pretty good brands. I'm willing to bet that I'll hear something as good or better than a Maggie 1.6. But I'm also not afraid to bet that they'll cost more to substantially more than the 1.6.

Not that I've heard a terrific amount of speakers in my life, but there are only 2 times that I ever remember hearing a speaker that made my heart skip: On my first speaker foray in 1973 when the guy suddenly turned on a large Altec (or Altec Lansing) that absolutely stunned me, and the other was in 1988 when I heard a Magnaplanar. But I promise to maintain an open mind.

The dealer that I'm going to is only open on Saturday and Sunday. Can't go today or tomorrow, so have to wait til next weekend. Delays, delays, delays #*&^*#!.

[Woochifer]

Though I respect Wooch very much, I think he is being pessimistic that you will need an amp other than the ADCOM with MG 1.6's anytime soon. If you do get the upgrade urge I'd say it would be for better quality rather more power.

I'm not sure that I would call it pessimistic, just relaying my listening impressions with a very similar combination to the one that he would use. His observations could very well differ from mine. I'm only recommending that he try those speakers with his amp before buying, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that given the comments about how the Maggies respond to the amp combination more so than most conventional speakers.

[Woochifer]

And Woocihfer, I promise to be as unbiased and neutral as possible. The first place I'm going to carries a pretty good selection of some pretty good brands. I'm willing to bet that I'll hear something as good or better than a Maggie 1.6. But I'm also not afraid to bet that they'll cost more to substantially more than the 1.6.

No promises needed, after all those speakers are for your enjoyment! The Maggies will sound different from other speakers, but there are a lot of other contenders out there. A Magnepan dealer should have plenty of alternatives around the same price point for you to consider.


Not that I've heard a terrific amount of speakers in my life, but there are only 2 times that I ever remember hearing a speaker that made my heart skip: On my first speaker foray in 1973 when the guy suddenly turned on a large Altec (or Altec Lansing) that absolutely stunned me, and the other was in 1988 when I heard a Magnaplanar. But I promise to maintain an open mind.

Well guess what, the big Altec "Voice of the Theater" A7s are available again. These are very different from the Maggies because they are horn-loaded speaker that can be easily driven by low powered amps.

http://www.alteclansing.com/legacy/story.asp

[Florian]

Feanor, Geoffcin
Thanks, that's the kind of talk I love to hear! Not sure I'm ready (either technically or financially) for Florian style upgrade just yet.

And Woocihfer, I promise to be as unbiased and neutral as possible. The first place I'm going to carries a pretty good selection of some pretty good brands. I'm willing to bet that I'll hear something as good or better than a Maggie 1.6. But I'm also not afraid to bet that they'll cost more to substantially more than the 1.6.

Not that I've heard a terrific amount of speakers in my life, but there are only 2 times that I ever remember hearing a speaker that made my heart skip: On my first speaker foray in 1973 when the guy suddenly turned on a large Altec (or Altec Lansing) that absolutely stunned me, and the other was in 1988 when I heard a Magnaplanar. But I promise to maintain an open mind.

The dealer that I'm going to is only open on Saturday and Sunday. Can't go today or tomorrow, so have to wait til next weekend. Delays, delays, delays #*&^*#!.

No need to go as nuts as me, i am just here to inform you along with others who actually have personal experience that they do not suffer from problems such as bass, dynamics etc... often so called upon from the box crowd. I do this ONLY to make sure you dont rule them out because *someone writes a bunch of junk.

Enjoy!

[jt1stcav]

FWIW, I owned a pair of Magnepan MGLR1 planars that sounded fantastic with both my Carver TFM-35x, and later with a McIntosh MC7200 power amp. The Mac especially had the high current necessary to really make my Maggies sing, and not only to orchestral/chamber music and jazz, but also to techno, rock, and full-blown pipe organ recordings! Of course I also had a DIY 1000 watt 15" powered subwoofer to help out with the bass duties, but my Maggie/Mac combo (controlled by an AMC tube pre) was truely anything but lacking! And I've only heard a few high-end loudspeakers that could truely disappear given the right room and speaker placement, and that from a pair of entry-level Magnepans not much more expensive than the ever-popular MMGs! Imagine what their TOTL models can do!

I may have gone a totally different route with my loudspeaker purchases of late (from 2-way cones 'n' domes, horns, and even fullrange single-drivers) and still enjoying the different varieties along the way. But I'll always have a warm spot in my heart for planars and someday may own another pair again. Good luck on your quest for good sound.

[Mike Anderson]

I'm not sure that I would call it pessimistic, just relaying my listening impressions with a very similar combination to the one that he would use. His observations could very well differ from mine. I'm only recommending that he try those speakers with his amp before buying, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that given the comments about how the Maggies respond to the amp combination more so than most conventional speakers.

In the interest of accuracy once again, I should stress that I have no problem with anything Woochifer says. This guy is definitely one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum when it comes to gear. And he's absolutely right when he says you should try out the specific amp/speaker combo you intend to use, especially when it comes to Maggies.

And Wooch, since you're in the SF Bay Area, you're cordially invited to come by anytime to check out my rig. I'll put on a few of the HDAD/DVD discs you so helpfully recommended to me, so you can hear the 1.6s pumping out pure 24bit/96khz sound!

I have to tell you, it's a helluva treat -- and thanks largely to you, because I never would have known about those discs if you hadn't alerted me to them.

[Florian]

Oh yes, and he is definetly welcome to my home too. Here you can experience 115db plus (if you want, its a tad loud) of uncompressed, dynamics (not to mention micro dynamics), bass to 19Hz without the help of a box, completely colorless sound with the help of the one driver material and no mass while having a huge driving force. Not to forget the scale and speed. Let me know when your coming so i can break out the beer and Sauerkraut to forget our sour days. I do like Woochs opinion in the HT section but not for planars, absolutly not. Otherwise, he is a great guy!

:16:

[Feanor]

I'm not sure that I would call it pessimistic, just relaying my listening impressions with a very similar combination to the one that he would use. His observations could very well differ from mine. I'm only recommending that he try those speakers with his amp before buying, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that given the comments about how the Maggies respond to the amp combination more so than most conventional speakers.

That is, to listen to a component at home in one's own system before committing to buy.

But regarding Maggies, I don't agree that they are fundamentally more difficult to match with amplifiers than other, typical speakers. Yes, they are 4 ohm and they do require power at that rating, but they are a stable, non-problematic load. Based on its specs, the ADCOM 5400 should be more than adequate.

In the past couple of years I have driven Maggies, (MMG, MG 1.6), with the following:

Phase Linear 400, (360 watts/channel @ 4 ohms)
Marantz 250, (125 @ 8)
Harmon Kardon 330A receiver, (about 40 @ 4)
NAD C270, (200 @ 4)
Monarchy SM70 Pro, Class A, stereo mode, (about 40 @ 4)
Monarchy SM70 Pro, pair, bridged, (about 100 @4)
Bel Canto eVo2i 'digital' integrated, (200 @ 4)The Maggies sounded great -- though different -- with all these amps. To be sure, the Maggies were able to drive out the strengths of each amp -- the Bel Canto was best but the bridged Monarchy's were very, very close.

Well, there was a problem with the Marantz 250: it blew its output transistors :sad: . I suspect this legacy amp wasn't rated for 4 ohms; anyway it had been sitting on the owner's shelf for years and, thankfully, he didn't care about the damage.

[safeharbor]

Is it true that Maggies "wear out"? I have heard that they become problematic through time...or is this another planar urban-legend?

[Geoffcin]

Is it true that Maggies "wear out"? I have heard that they become problematic through time...or is this another planar urban-legend?

Although they do have a long break-in period. On the true ribbon models 3.6r & 20.1 the ribbon will eventually need replacing, but it's service life is like 10,000 hrs at moderate volume, so that's really not a worry. It's also easily replaced.

[Geoffcin]

To be sure, the Maggies were able to bring out the strengths of each amp

Is that the load is as close to purely resisitive as it gets in a speaker. This lets the amp show it's true colors, rather than interacting with the speakers varible load. For all of Florians ranting about how wonderful his ribbon speakers are because of the low mass design, the fact is that his speakers are one of the most highly capacitive designs ever made. A lot of the good from the low mass is negated by the highly reactive load put on the amp.

[squeegy200]

Magnaplanars will be a very different experience than the Bose speakers you previously owned. So listen critically because you are the one who has to live with them.

I own a pair of SMGs which maggie purists agree is argueably the smallest and most anemic of the Magnapan lineup past and present.

I drive them with a pair of humble NAD 2155 amps bridged mono which I purchased off eBay for $130 each.

I listen to everything from Van Halen to Offenbach, Dave Grusin to the Back Street Boys.They graciously interpret everything I've thrown at them. Listen and decide for yourself. These littlest of planar speakers can create some immense sound pressure in my 13x18 listening room. Imagine what the bigger panels can achieve!

[E-Stat]

Well guess what, the big Altec "Voice of the Theater" A7s are available again. These are very different from the Maggies because they are horn-loaded speaker that can be easily driven by low powered amps.
I thought they had experienced a graceful death long ago. They do honk ("my heart goes where the wild goose goes") rather horribly in the midrange to these ears. $12k a pair? I'd have a pair of 20.1s in a New York minute. There is no comparison.

rw

[Woochifer]

I thought they had experienced a graceful death long ago. They do honk ("my heart goes where the wild goose goes") rather horribly in the midrange to these ears. $12k a pair? I'd have a pair of 20.1s in a New York minute. There is no comparison.

rw

They were out of production for a long time, with a lot of older theaters ripping out their Altec VOT/Western Electric tube systems in favor of JBL screen speakers and higher powered SS amps. But, with the recent interest in low powered SET amps and large horn drivers, Altec probably figured it was good time to bring back one of the best known horn designs this side of the Klipschorn. Plus, Altec recently relaunched their home audio speaker line, and the VOT A-7 is the company's statement piece and link to its illustrious history.

In all fairness though, most of the Altec VOT installations I'd heard over the years were in less than ideal acoustical environments. (For one thing, these speakers are way too big for most homes) The ones I've heard were either playing pre-digital analog optical film soundtracks in an echoey theater with minimal acoustical controls, which would sound horrible played through any speakers, including the 20.1s; or setup in a reverberant auditorium/gymnasium. Plenty of the Altec VOT speakers did make their way into home environments, so obviously these speakers have a following.

[Florian]

For all of Florians ranting about how wonderful his ribbon speakers are because of the low mass design, the fact is that his speakers are one of the most highly capacitive designs ever made. A lot of the good from the low mass is negated by the highly reactive load put on the amp.

That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)

But in the end, i was not ranting. I think you just got grumpy becaue i mentioned the high mass, non-unifed drivers and resoance problems on the Maggie panels?

Take it easy and please read more carefully and experience some. You are more then welcome to come here and we will compare the "EASE" to a MG 3.6 and the 20.1 and you will see that the DIVAS are much easier to drive and controll.

PS: I asume your not the "bashing guy" either, and you know that having the same driver material for every single driver, using true ribbons (as found in your 3.6 and the 20.1) is incredibly good and the Apogees do this exellently.

[E-Stat]

Plus, Altec recently relaunched their home audio speaker line, and the VOT A-7 is the company's statement piece and link to its illustrious history.
I wish for them the best. At least they've upgraded the crossover, raised the corner frequency from 500 to 900 and use Cardas connectors! Back in the seventies when I was in my teens, I lusted for a pair. They looked cool, had great specs, and of course had the industry recognition. That was until I actually heard them and was deflated. Shouty, hard, and thin sounding. Like first hearing the vaunted AR-LST. You mean Julian was wrong?

That was about the time I learned that most conventional specifications were next to useless to convey any meaningful sort of information. On the other hand, I still vividly remember first hearing a pair of strange looking hinged, three segment room dividers. They were driven by a pair of tube amps from a virtually unknown company up in the frozen land of Minnesota. They sounded quite different than any other speaker I had ever heard. I can tell you to this day what was playing. My ears told me this was more like the real thing. That was a pivotal experience for me.


(For one thing, these speakers are way too big for most homes) Apparently, Altec doesn't think so. In their brochure, they say the ideal listening distance when separated by 8 feet is between 8 and 16 feet. I could easily accomodate that in my 30x15 room. They claim response down to 35 hz. Well, a Hyundai Elantra can do 130...with a stiff tail wind going downhill. :)

rw

[JoeE SP9]

That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)

But in the end, i was not ranting. I think you just got grumpy becaue i mentioned the high mass, non-unifed drivers and resoance problems on the Maggie panels?

Take it easy and please read more carefully and experience some. You are more then welcome to come here and we will compare the "EASE" to a MG 3.6 and the 20.1 and you will see that the DIVAS are much easier to drive and controll.

PS: I asume your not the "bashing guy" either, and you know that having the same driver material for every single driver, using true ribbons (as found in your 3.6 and the 20.1) is incredibly good and the Apogees do this exellently.
Although the resistance of the Apogge's is almost constant, they are a reactive load. This is a referrence to the capacitive load they show an amplifier. This can cause instability in amps that have less than stellar power supplies. Lots of amps do not like highly capacitive loads. This is why amps like the Classe, Krell, ML or other robustly constructed ones are needed. BTW, some highly regarded speaker cable has this same capacitive reactance.:cool:

[Florian]

Although the resistance of the Apogge's is almost constant, they are a reactive load. This is a referrence to the capacitive load they show an amplifier. This can cause instability in amps that have less than stellar power supplies. Lots of amps do not like highly capacitive loads. This is why amps like the Classe, Krell, ML or other robustly constructed ones are needed. BTW, some highly regarded speaker cable has this same capacitive reactance.:cool:

I agree, but who runs Apogees with little Receivers or 4 watt tube amps? :confused5:
People who buy them know that it takes good matching and stable amps.
Hihi, i wish i had the cash to buy Magnan speaker cable. By the way, i am picking up a second pair of DIVAS with active x-o in italy. :5:

PS: Most good non-commerical amps can run them....but it takes a lot more to achieve close to perfection. I bought some Sphinx PJ12 Monoblocks too for the midrange ribbons.

[Geoffcin]

That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)

I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.

[Florian]

I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.

If you use the original ribbons, yes but EVEN THEN not on all the models and my point about the different drivers, textures and weight plus resonant points remain valid. The MG20.1 and MG20 is going the direction of Apogee and for a good sonic reason too!

[JoeE SP9]

I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.
You are absolutely correct. However, if I have it right the ribbon element in Magnepans is not metalized plastic. A strip of pure metal should have low or no capacitive reactance.The Magnepan ribbon tweeter is one of the best if not the best tweeter I have heard. The 3.6 R's that a buddy has sound fantastic. BTW The person he purchased the 3.3 R's from had replaced them with a pair of MG 20's. They were as much better than the 3.6's as the 3.6's are over the 1.6's. They are almost enough to make me switch. NOT!:cool:

[Geoffcin]

You are absolutely correct. However, if I have it right the ribbon element in Magnepans is not metalized plastic. A strip of pure metal should have low or no capacitive reactance.The Magnepan ribbon tweeter is one of the best if not the best tweeter I have heard. The 3.6 R's that a buddy has sound fantastic. BTW The person he purchased the 3.3 R's from had replaced them with a pair of MG 20's. They were as much better than the 3.6's as the 3.6's are over the 1.6's. They are almost enough to make me switch. NOT!:cool:

The ribbons in the Magnepan ribbon tweeter are pure ultra-thin aluminum. The capacitance is non-existant, and it's a purely resistive load (3 ohms). There's a couple of problems with the tweeter though, although sound quality is not one of them.

One; They wear out. If you like to play you music loud, pretty much expect to replace the tweeter within 5 years.

Two; They don't play low. The crossover is set pretty so your not getting a lot of range covered by this amazing driver. That being said, play ANYTHING with a lot of high harmonics like brass/ big band music, and your in for a shock on what you were missing. Well, not you personally, as you've got some great speakers, but I've had a few friends with pretty good speakers get the glazed-over look when I let them here some BB music through the 3.6's.

[JoeE SP9]

Getting glazed looks from guests when first hearing my ESL's is only half the fun. Having them stand next to one while it is playing and ask me where the speakers are is even more fun. They usually ask what size cones they contain. It is sometimes quite difficult to explain how ESL's contain no woofers, tweeters, magnets or cones of any kind. The interfaces and AC cords cause even more questions. The average person has some difficulty understanding the electrostatic principle. I have learned not to mention the kind of voltages that are used. Big fun!!! :cool:

[bubslewis]

Getting back to the original theme and intent of this thread that I (proudly) started, I now own a pair of Magnapan 1.6's . Will arrive next week. Bought them from a elderly gent, retired electrical engineer, who has a small store in Baltimore. I listened to everything he had, unfortunately not a very wide variety (the whole Magnapan line, several Spendors, couple other small speakers).

Also got a B & K 125.S2 amplifier at a very good price with stipulation that I could return it and upgrade if it proved insufficient. Had originally ordered an ADCOM 5400, but cancelled it because it was backordered and also because it wouldn't be avaiable until a defective one was returned to the factory for repair and refurbishment. That sounds very fishy.

Anyway, onward and upward.

p.s This is an outstanding forum. I have learned half a gazillion things in the past two months. And it's tuition free to boot!

thanks,
Bill

[Feanor]

Getting back to the original theme and intent of this thread that I (proudly) started, I now own a pair of Magnapan 1.6's .
...
Also got a B & K 125.S2 amplifier at a very good price with stipulation that I could return it and upgrade if it proved insufficient.
...
Bill

Congradulations. You will enjoy the 1.6's. Haven't heard them, but I'm inclined to believe the the B&K is better amp than the Adcom.

[Florian]

Grats on the 1.6! A wise choice and welcome to the planar world :-)
I would reconsider the amp tough, personally.

-Flo

[JoeE SP9]

Congrats on the 1.6's. Just remember they need to be broken in for best sound. After playing music for a couple of weeks you'll understand.:cool:

[bubslewis]

Grats on the 1.6! A wise choice and welcome to the planar world :-)
I would reconsider the amp tough, personally.

-Flo



Florian,

Thanks. Lets assume that, after adequate break-in period and intense listening, I decide to upgrade amplifier to better or much better status. This runs me into dillemma # 2.

My grand plan is to utilize the Magnapans alone for the bulk of my music listening, but to also employ them as front speakers in my home theater setup. This combination dictates that I use the pre amp outputs of my a/v receiver (Yamaha 2500) to get the signal to the amplifier and hence the Magnapans.

I'm assuming the preamp capability of the a/v receiver (packed in with 7 other amplifiers, tuners, sound processors, etc) will be average at best. Compared with a good stand-alone preamp, how much sonic quality am I sacraficing by running good speakers thru a good amplifier from an inferior preamp? I can live with a little bit, but certainly not a big bit.

Using a stand alone preamp for the Magnapans will essentially separate my music from my home theater. I cannot do this since I only have one adequate room in the house that is suitable for either.

If I had to choose priorities, it would definitely be music first, home theater second. Due to life's limitations, however, I seem to be trying to combine an apple and an orange.