Building an audio system from scratch... [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Building an audio system from scratch...



igrek
03-06-2006, 03:07 PM
...and need your advise!

I've just moved to a new house and would like to buy a new, real audio system.
I'm primarily interested in music (just stereo), but might buy a big-screen TV soon and then would need home theater setup.

I don't have an exact number for my budget... Something around $1500-$2000 for the whole setup would be nice. Actually, I can spend more, but given that I'm a casual listener, that would be an overkill for me.

Music I listen to: rock, alternative, elecronic. Less often: blues, guitar, piano. Rarely: opera, organ, chamber music.

Now, about the room: it is 19'x20', 8.5' high. Just in case if it matters for acoustics:
The room is rectangular; about 1/3 of the room wall area is covered by windows (one wall is completely made of glass, and 2 glass sections on the other wall. The ceiling is made from wood, the floor is currently carpeted, but we plan to change it to hardwood floor.

The room is currently empty, we haven't got any furniture yet.

I guess, I need floorstanding speakers, amplifier and some sort of CD (+SACD?) player. As a next step, I'd need components for home theater (I don't know yet what's needed - never had one)

I was considering these speakers:
Axiom m60 or m80
Paradigm Studio 60 or 80
Magneplanar 1.6

Don't know which amplifier to get. I friend of mine recommended to get a used Sansui AU-717 on eBay. But I guess, I need to choose the speakers first and then decode on the amplifier.

By the way, I play piano and have the Yamaha P-250 electronic piano. Which has great sound, but the built-in speakers are inadequate. It would be nice to connect the Yamaha to the amplifier/big speakers. Or, do I need a separate amplifier/speaker for this?

I'd appreciate your comments and recommendations. Thanks!

Florian
03-06-2006, 04:50 PM
I was considering these speakers:
Axiom m60 or m80
Paradigm Studio 60 or 80
Magneplanar 1.6

[/QUOTE]

You should really listen to these speakers first ;-) The Maggie is incredibly different then above ones BOTH in sound and requirements.


-Flo

hermanv
03-06-2006, 05:29 PM
Would you consider used equipment? IMHO the budget you have in mind is fine for TV listening or background music but won't do a real job on quality stereo. The piano makes some real demands on speakers and on sheer power required to reproduce it well. Of course if the comparison is to some built in small speakers, then you are correct in that almost any seperate box speaker can probably sound better.

Do you know any audio nuts? It would be worthwhile listening to a nice system just to decide if that level of performance means anything to you. By this I mean that you might decide this is for you and would probably need to adjust your budget upwards. Other people would feel like this is not a good place to invest their limited funds and that the mainstream discount seller (Best Buy, et al) stuff is fine by them.

Speaking only for brand new, speakers stop minimizing weakneses and start maximizing strengths at around $1,500 to $2,000. If you buy used there are some quite fine speakers in this range. For electronics you will need to decide if your system will include a turntable or if CDs are your only source. Many DVD palyer will certainly play CDs, but I've never heard one that competes with a dedicated CD player in the $500 and up catagory.

So a number of decisions that trade off cost vs performance as well as issues relating to the trade off between all in one (recievers) vs seperate components, integrated amplifiers vs. seperate pre and power amplifiers. It gets more complicated if you plan to include home theater because the system needs to be able to switch between two channel and 5 or more.

If you truly enjoy listening to music, then perhaps you should avoid the upgrade merry go round where every item is replaced, sometimes more than once in order to get better sound. If this is you, you will save real money by getting "good stuff" the first time.

here is a link to people who have some advice;
http://www.soundstage.com/noisy03.htm

markw
03-06-2006, 05:44 PM
Uh, you do realize the maggie 1.6's sell for about $1600 alone. Also, consider the fact that they like, no make that DEMAND, a good, powerful amp and you're way over budget with a two channel only system without even considering source.

I do love my 1.6's buy you're gonna have to expand your thinking a little to encompass them.

matt39
03-07-2006, 01:22 AM
The budget you state makes me think that the Axiom speakers might be a good choice. I agree with Markw that while the Magnepan 1.6's are great speakers, their cost (even used) would strain or break your bank. I think it would be to your advantage to listen to a couple other brands. The type of music you like makes me think of Boston Acoustic VR series, the Klipsch Reference series or even PSB Image series (which are a little less efficient). If you like the sound of them, they (or the Axioms) have floorstanding speakers which should fill your room and they would also be good starters for a home theater system if you decide to go that way in the future. Solid amplification for nice, efficient speakers like these could be had from integrated amps like the NAD C352 or the Cambridge Audio Azur 640A. You shouldn't discount some of the better receivers like the Yamaha RX-797 or Denon DRA-685 which offer ample power and features. I would also consider a decent dvd player with a 24 bit/192 khz DAC as your source. Cambridge and Denon have some nice, reasonable offerings or, if you wish to economize, something from Toshiba or Samsung would get you by. This could tie in with your future HT plans too. You have quite a few choices so do some careful auditioning to make sure your system's sound (particularly speakers) suits your tastes. As to your question about your piano I think your best bet would be to talk to your dealer. They would know best about bypassing the units speakers. Hope this helps and good luck.
Gary

igrek
03-07-2006, 10:46 AM
Thanks for your advise and specific recommendations!

Yes, I definitely need to listen to more speakers. Unfortunately, I don't have any audiophile friends, so my only chance is to go find some dealers. But then, as far as I understand, Axiom doesn't have any dealers in the US (I'm in SF bay area). I've seen some Magnepan dealers in Palo Alto, will check.

Regarding the budget - I probably didn't explain it well enough. I don't have a specific number in mind. I was planning to spend 1500-2000, but can afford to spend more - 3000+, for example. I'm just trying to find some "optimal" middle price point, after which the quality imporvements are marginal. I understand that it's highly subjective, but still was hoping to get some general "rules of thumb" for casual music listening.

Let me give you an example from a different area. I'm a photography enthusiast, and own some high-end photo equipment. If some newbie would ask me - what kind of lens should he buy, I could recommend some lenses and also tell what price range would be reasonable "middle point" for a decent photo system. I personally am a Leica fan, but I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner. Because I realize that my 50mm fixed focus lens costs 10 times more than a similar Nikon/Canon lens, but it gives only marginal quality improvement (which is also subjective - if you don't know where to look, you will not see the difference between Leica and Canon photos).

So, I'm looking for an audio equivalent of something like Canon 20D :)

RGA
03-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Because of the music you listen to mainly I would probably start your search with something like the Dynadio Audience 72. I believe it is around $2,200.00US. A fairly beefy amplifier would be needed though. Some find the speakers a little laid back. A less expensive option that would have a bolder in your face presentation would be from the likes of the Klispch Reference series or the Energy C series. Both Klipsch and Energy typically offer easier loads so you don't need very powerful amplifiers to get a lot of volume. That can be a great asset to be able to not have to spend money on big power amps. of course you COULD do that as well and really pound :5:

Woochifer
03-07-2006, 07:12 PM
Given your set of music preferences, and eventual goal of building up a home theater system, I'm not sure if the Maggies will work well for you. For a strictly two-channel setup with primarily acoustic music, the Maggies are great speakers, provided that you supply them with sufficient amplification (entry and mid level home theater receivers likely won't work well). But, IMO they are less than ideal for rock, hip hop, and home theater sources.

The Paradigm and Axiom models on your list will trade off some of the Maggies' refinement in exchange for a more aggressive sound that's more atuned to the types of sources that you plan to listen to. As far as the Paradigm Studio series goes, keep in mind that the Studio 80 was discontinued when Paradigm went to the v.3 series a few years ago. And if you plan to go with a subwoofer, you might even want to consider going with the standmount models, as those have some advantages over the floorstanders with regard to the imaging quality.

If you're looking at the home theater option, then your budget will probably limit you to using a midlevel HT receiver for the amplification. The midlevel (~$1,500) Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Onkyo, NAD, and Rotel models (among others) should provide more than enough power to drive a full set of your typical 8 ohm speakers, which include those Paradigm and Axiom models, and the otherwise mentioned Klipsch, Energy, Boston, and PSB speakers. More demanding 4 ohm speakers such as the Maggies and Dynaudios, among others, will require external amplification with a home theater setup.

The key is to start with a pair of speakers that work best with your preferences, and then add the matching center and surround speakers. A subwoofer can be added on at any time during the process, and with both home theater and music sources, the sub can provide a huge assist by solidly anchoring the lower frequencies (and allowing you the most flexibility to tailor the sound around the room acoustics).

With a budget of ~$2k and speakers on the caliber of the Studio 60 and Maggie 1.6, you're basically stuck with auditioning for the first pair of speakers, and going with a home theater receiver to start with. Forget about center and surround speakers, and the subwoofer -- you can always add those later on. If you choose to go with more demanding speakers, a home theater receiver will only safely drive ONE pair of 4 ohm speakers at a time. Anymore than two speakers, and you will need to add an external amplifier.

In the Bay Area, the Maggie dealers are Audible Difference in Palo Alto and Stereo Unlimited in Walnut Creek (and if you want to make a road trip, Axiom Audio in Monterey). The Paradigm dealers are Music Lovers Audio/Video (Berkeley and SF), Performance Audio (SF), Sound Perfection (Menlo Park), Stereo Doctor (Dublin), and Bay Area Audio (San Jose). The major Dynaudio dealer in the Bay Area is SF Stereo (SF and Mountain View). All of these dealers carry a decent range of gear from entry level price points up to high end room installations, and are also great spots to try out other speaker brands. Other AV dealers that you can try out include Anderson TV (multiple locations), Magnolia Audio Video (multiple locations), Future Sound (Burlingame), Harmony Audio Video (SF), and Laser City (San Bruno).

Florian
03-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Given your set of music preferences, and eventual goal of building up a home theater system, I'm not sure if the Maggies will work well for you. For a strictly two-channel setup with primarily acoustic music, the Maggies are great speakers, provided that you supply them with sufficient amplification (entry and mid level home theater receivers likely won't work well). But, IMO they are less than ideal for rock, hip hop, and home theater sources.
Given the general missinformation and the general missunderstaning of fundematal designs that exist in these type of speakers i suggest you check it out yourself. Have a read here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html

And these reviews might serve you well, also they are highly reviewed on audioreview. Planar systems can rock and the maggies do not need insane power *ok, more then some ABC Receiver, but thats not what they are designed for.

'Also its given that the Maggies have a pretty flat impedance responce which make them easier then those Paradigms and B&Ws which vary wildly and introduce pahse shifts in the amps.

http://www.magnepan.com/img/rev/award_01.jpg

Woochifer
03-07-2006, 08:50 PM
Given the general missinformation and the general missunderstaning of fundematal designs that exist in these type of speakers i suggest you check it out yourself. Have a read here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html

And these reviews might serve you well, also they are highly reviewed on audioreview. Planar systems can rock and the maggies do not need insane power *ok, more then some ABC Receiver, but thats not what they are designed for.

'Also its given that the Maggies have a pretty flat impedance responce which make them easier then those Paradigms and B&Ws which vary wildly and introduce pahse shifts in the amps.

And how many of these reviews discuss the Maggie 1.6s within the context of a home theater setup and a budget of under $2k? My response was intended to take the poster's sources, goals, and preferences into account.

Just because something is "highly reviewed" (and FYI, the Paradigm Studio models are also "highly reviewed" on Audioreview.com) does not mean that it is the universal solution for all contexts and sources. And whether or not something "rocks" is an entirely subjective evaluation. IMO, "rock, alternative, electronic" (which is what the Igrek stated as his most listened to music) and home theater are not the Maggie's strongsuits, whereas they are strengths with the Paradigm Studio series. Whether the Maggie renders these sources in a way that meet igrek's preferences is something he'll have to decide thru his own listenings.

My listenings with the Maggie 1.6 do not suggest that they would be easier to drive than "those Paradigms and B&Ws" (and BTW, no brought up B&W, so I don't know why you're talking about it here). I seriously doubt that a home theater receiver driving a set of five Maggie 1.6's is less likely to go into protection mode than with a five speaker Paradigm Studio or Axiom setup. Again, consider the context of the budget and the poster's desire to eventually transition into home theater. I will agree that listening is a starting point, which is why I listed the Maggie dealers in this area alongside the others, and those dealers carry plenty of other speaker brands that no one else has mentioned.

Florian
03-07-2006, 09:01 PM
I was planning to spend 1500-2000, but can afford to spend more - 3000+, for example. I'm just trying to find some "optimal" middle price point, after which the quality imporvements are marginal. I understand that it's highly subjective, but still was hoping to get some general "rules of thumb" for casual music listening.

Nuff said!


My listenings with the Maggie 1.6 do not suggest that they would be easier to drive than "those Paradigms and B&Ws" (and BTW, no brought up B&W, so I don't know why you're talking about it here). I seriously doubt that a home theater receiver driving a set of five Maggie 1.6's is less likely to go into protection mode than with a five speaker Paradigm Studio or Axiom setup.

Try the Cambridge Audio 540R...works wonderfull....i know this because i had it. Also, the old Onkyo 919 works like a dream.

Do yourself a fav. wooch and meausre your impedance responce on your Paradigms and then do the same on a Maggie. The Maggies acts like a resistor and you only need to drive the 4ohm load and thats it. Simple on the amp!

The reason i bring up B&W is because the "general asumption by none owners" is that planars are hard to drive, this is untrue because i would rather drive a stable 4ohm load then a 4 to 16ohm load.

StanleyMuso
03-07-2006, 09:49 PM
Given the general missinformation and the general missunderstaning of fundematal designs that exist in these type of speakers i suggest you check it out yourself. Have a read here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html

And these reviews might serve you well, also they are highly reviewed on audioreview. Planar systems can rock and the maggies do not need insane power *ok, more then some ABC Receiver, but thats not what they are designed for.

'Also its given that the Maggies have a pretty flat impedance responce which make them easier then those Paradigms and B&Ws which vary wildly and introduce pahse shifts in the amps.

http://www.magnepan.com/img/rev/award_01.jpg


but not everyone has the space to live with speakers which look like and have the dimensions of room dividers.

Florian
03-07-2006, 09:52 PM
Thats right, but he didnt mention how large he wants his new speakers or not.

igrek
03-08-2006, 10:05 AM
Woochifer - thanks for th elisting of dealers in SF Bay area!

Now, an urgent question. Someone on a local board is selling this setup:

===
- Magnepan, Magneplanar MG 3.3 Speakers. Details and photo at: http://www.magnepan.com/_mg36.php
- Sony Digital Sound Processing System, can drive up to 8 speakers, STR V555ES
- Pre-amp tuner, NAD 1600
- Amplifier rated for THX, NAD 2700
- Sony 5 disk CD Player, CDP C89E5
===

The price for this set is $2000. Looks like a good deal to me. Is it?

Florian
03-08-2006, 10:24 AM
For the price its wonderfull, asuming the old Maggie is in great shape. The 3.3 is a bit dated but no fascinating the less. I would HIGHLY suggest you hear a Maggie before jumping in the water.

-Flo

RGA
03-08-2006, 12:58 PM
I would pay attention to what Woochifer is saying because you are getting some very poor advice by some others here IMO.

The Magnepan 1.6 is one of the best speakers I’ve heard for the money but only with certain kinds of music – and that is not the music you listen to – for the music you listen to the 1.6 and 3.6 are very poor loudspeakers.

You said this “Music I listen to: rock, alternative, electronic. Less often: blues, guitar, piano. Rarely: opera, organ, chamber music.”

Now for this music I would expect pretty loud levels with an incredible amount of drive and power – the Maggies don’t have this. They have an open clear sound.

Consider that every amplified event in the world has a dynamic loudspeaker (not a panel). Every speaker gets great reviews by someone but what is more important for you is to get a speaker that will do the job that YOU need it to do. Rock alternative and electronic or trance on a Maggie is about the worst choice you could ever make. I have heard the B&W 604S3 in the same room and it costs the same amount of money as the 1.6 and for your music the 604S3 blows the panels off the 1.6. For other kinds of music though the reverse may be the case.

There are also highly practical reasons to not go with the Maggie for what you are planning. Panels have terrible off axis dispersion which means that they typically have a very small sweet-spot. This means that you have to sit between the speakers and that they tend to be built for one person listening – this makes them less ideal for home theater where you may have several people in the room watching movies sitting in various locations. They tend to also have poor vertical dispersion so standing up or having a party with them on they tend to sound rather terrible. Basically one person can listen directly between them and don’t more your head much – this is called the head in the vice listening position – and it can be highly annoying.

Martin Logan the world’s biggest panel maker has tried over the years to address panel problems and they have curved the panel so that off axis dispersion has been improved so that more people can listen to them in a wider area. They have also added a coned woofer because they recognize that to get true deep bass with dynamic drive at acceptable volume levels requires a coned woofer – otherwise you would need a panel the size of a big Soundlab and even then the bass doesn’t match a particular two way stand-mount I’m familiar with - and before somebody argues the point there is a dealer in the US that sells both the top of the line SoundLab and the two way I mention – and so it can be heard in person. http://www.audiofederation.com/dealership/products/index.htm

The Maggie does a lot well – and they look neat – visuals and conversation pieces drive a lot of people to buying. Try and listen to the Paradigm 100, the B&W 604, or the Energy C9 (or it’s new replacement) directly against the 1.6 with your music at the volume level you need it to play at. My bet is that the Maggie comes in at a distant last place.
:16:

igrek
03-08-2006, 02:03 PM
OK, I just got back from The Audible Difference, where I listened to Magnepans 1.6 and some floorstanding speaker from Revel (I've never heard about them before and I don't know the model, but the price was around $1400 for pair). I also listened to B&W 704 a couple of days ago. That's about all my high-end listening experience.

Yes, I must confess that I'm a very uneducated listener. Well, I've been playing piano for 30 years and guitar for many years, too. So, I believe I'm not hopeless and have good ears. But still, my audio listening experience was mostly conditioned by unnaturally enhanced cheap audio systems, or car audio that didn't give the true sound, but sounded "nice".

What I've just found - the high-end audio sounds different :)

So far, I haven't heard a system that made me say "wow".
I expected a lot from B&W 704, but was not that impressed. Maybe, I expected too much.

Now, the Magnepans today... Yes, they give very different kind of sound, and (after 40 minutes of listening) I can't yet decide if I like it or not. Yes, the sound is very clear and open, but I'd like more bass and more drive (I'm not sure if I use the right terms, but I use drive in the same sense as in "rock concert dirve"). But they give beautiful impression that the musicians are in the room (is it called imaging?). Actually, I tried to move from spot to spot in the room and couldn't say that I saw a well defined sweet spot. The "image" was changing a little from point to point, but it was reasonably good everywhere in the room. Maybe, I just don't hear it yet - need more practice.

Then I compared the same CDs in the same room with Revels. They delivered more bass and fuller sound, but the quality (especially mid frequencies) were not up to the Magnepan. I couldn't hear that many nuances, especially in human voices and acoustic guitar. Also, I could hear very well that music is coming right from the speakers, while with Magnepans the music was everywhere in the room.

Oh, one more discovery I made: not all CDs are equal :) These speakers, especially Magnepans, showed all the defects and shortcomings of some records. I could clearly hear that the frequency range for some pop music was compressed; acoustic guitars for some live records were recorded slightly distorted, etc. Also, it's cool to find some sounds that I've never heard before: sounds of fingers on frets, fingers touching hand drums, etc. Very interesting.

So, I have to check the other systems now to make my mind about Magnepans.

Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it!

Woochifer
03-08-2006, 02:25 PM
Woochifer - thanks for th elisting of dealers in SF Bay area!

Now, an urgent question. Someone on a local board is selling this setup:

===
- Magnepan, Magneplanar MG 3.3 Speakers. Details and photo at: http://www.magnepan.com/_mg36.php
- Sony Digital Sound Processing System, can drive up to 8 speakers, STR V555ES
- Pre-amp tuner, NAD 1600
- Amplifier rated for THX, NAD 2700
- Sony 5 disk CD Player, CDP C89E5
===

The price for this set is $2000. Looks like a good deal to me. Is it?

Great price for that setup, but there are some things you need to consider before you make the big leap.

First off, the MG 3.3 is about 2' x 6' and people who own Magneplanars will tell you that you need plenty of space away from the backwall (typically ~3 feet) for the speakers to sound their best -- does your room have enough space to accommodate speakers of that size? And with the ancillary center and surround speakers, does Magnepan make anything that fits your room and timbre matches properly with the MG 3.3 (important to ask because the 3.3 is a discontinued model).

Lastly, are you ready to buy a complete audio system without having heard any of the components before? As I said, the Maggies are great speakers for certain applications, but they might not match well with your music preferences and system goals. IMO, you'll need to give them a listen and decide for yourself whether they are a good fit. Buying equipment sight unseen and unheard is generally not a good idea unless you know that you can return something that you don't like.

Woochifer
03-08-2006, 04:22 PM
OK, I just got back from The Audible Difference, where I listened to Magnepans 1.6 and some floorstanding speaker from Revel (I've never heard about them before and I don't know the model, but the price was around $1400 for pair). ...

Congratulations! That's a very common impression when people step up from the mini systems, car audio systems, computer speakers, and all-in-one units that make up the majority of the market. Even a simple entry level component-based system paired with a good set of bookshelf speakers will put you well ahead of what most consumers use. How far you want to advance beyond that base level depends on your performance expectations and your budget tolerance. Keep in mind that as you go along, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and you start shelling out huge sums for relatively minor gains.

With your impressions of the Maggies, it sounds like you're looking for a more forward and aggressive sound. Plenty of other alternatives have already been suggested that might give you the right balance between that visceral aggression that rock/alternative fans look for, and the amount of detail and refinement that's needed for a more accurate rendering of high resolution sources. The Maggies can project a very large and ambient sound because of their dipolar design. Imaging is something that you'll pick up on as you continue with your listenings. Good speakers will give you a very coherent locational cue as to where individual sounds emanate from, provided that the recording is intended to create such an aural image.

If you're interested in hearing the Paradigms, Music Lovers Audio in Berkeley (I've not been to their new San Francisco location, which I understand is quite a showcase) is a very good spot to try them out. Among the Paradigm dealers I've visited, they're the only one that consistently has the entire lineup available for demo and comparison.

accastil
03-08-2006, 07:38 PM
hi igek, if i were you, these are the options for me:
player: cambridge audio azur 540c or rotel rcd02
reciever: harman kardon 235 and above or marantz SR5500 and above
stereo power amp: rotel rb1070 and above
floor standers: BnW 600 series, MS declaration series, monitor audio silver series, dyna audio, paradigm studio 60

i suggest this combination:
rotel rcd02
harman kardon 435
rotel rb1070
monitor audio silver 20

Cal Blacksmith
03-10-2006, 01:21 PM
It has been a few days since this thread was posted to but for your type of music and future plans for a HT, I would recomend used Klipsch Fort'es and a good SS receiver from the 70s perhaps a HK for 2 ch listening. It will rock out hard, have clean sound and be under $1K You can easily build a HT on this foundation and thus make your money go farther. The down side is you can't go anywhere to audition these speakers so you either need to trust advice given or know someone. You are welcome to come listen to my HT setup if So. Cal is within your driving range.

igrek
03-10-2006, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'll check every piece you're suggesting.

Cal Blacksmith - thanks for the invitation, but I'm SF bay and not planning to go south anytime soon.

One more thing. I'm not very good with music classification. So, when I said I listen to rock, alternative and electronic mostly, I'm not sure if that gives right impression.
I guess, the MTV-music my daughter is listening to is also called rock/alternative - it's Green Day, Good Sharlotte (sp?), Black-something-peas, etc. But no, I don't listen to that music at all (nor to any hip-hop or rap related). To be concrete, this is a representative sample of my listening tastes:

50% Tom Waits
5% John Lee Hooker
5% AC/DC
5% Bob Marley
5% Dead Can Dance
5% Piano (classic)
5% Guitar
5% Jean Michelle Jarre
5% Pink Floyd
5% Mike Oldfield
5% Peter Gabriel

accastil
03-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'll check every piece you're suggesting.

Cal Blacksmith - thanks for the invitation, but I'm SF bay and not planning to go south anytime soon.

One more thing. I'm not very good with music classification. So, when I said I listen to rock, alternative and electronic mostly, I'm not sure if that gives right impression.
I guess, the MTV-music my daughter is listening to is also called rock/alternative - it's Green Day, Good Sharlotte (sp?), Black-something-peas, etc. But no, I don't listen to that music at all (nor to any hip-hop or rap related). To be concrete, this is a representative sample of my listening tastes:

50% Tom Waits
5% John Lee Hooker
5% AC/DC
5% Bob Marley
5% Dead Can Dance
5% Piano (classic)
5% Guitar
5% Jean Michelle Jarre
5% Pink Floyd
5% Mike Oldfield
5% Peter Gabriel
if you are into rock and other bassful music, dont consider the magnepan. choose among BnW, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, Energy. magnepans are really good but only to a limited type of music...mostly light jazz, classsical, and the likes...and you may also find it hard to match a driver for them, they normally need more powerful amps.

Florian
03-15-2006, 03:49 PM
Completely wrong in my opinion about the Maggie....all about driving electronics, room acoustics etc...

-Flo



:16:

accastil
03-16-2006, 01:23 AM
hi Florian,
no offense meant here...while i agree with you that magnepans sound glorious while playing light and mellow music, i also would like to open your consciousness that they are not that good with bassfull, pop music.
i myself am considering to buy a pair of magnepans soon and i plan to have them driven directly by a pro-amp with gain controls. this is to suit my light music listening while still making use of my MS set up whenever id like to listen to heavy, pop music.
and yes, the maggies would definitely require a workhorse of an amp to bring out their potentials unlike most of the box speakers we know.

Florian
03-16-2006, 01:31 AM
hi Florian,
no offense meant here...while i agree with you that magnepans sound glorious while playing light and mellow music, i also would like to open your consciousness that they are not that good with bassfull, pop music.
i myself am considering to buy a pair of magnepans soon and i plan to have them driven directly by a pro-amp with gain controls. this is to suit my light music listening while still making use of my MS set up whenever id like to listen to heavy, pop music.
and yes, the maggies would definitely require a workhorse of an amp to bring out their potentials unlike most of the box speakers we know.

No offense taken, the only Maggie i still own is the .5 (my first good speaker) and have moved over several Maggies (1.6's, 3.6's) to Apogees. (Scinitllas and now DIVAS). People have to understand that Maggies (planars in general) are VERY different to boxes and if they place and drive them like boxes then they will never sound good. They require a different level of dedication to make them work. Yes bass output is limited but still far deeper and cleaner then any box in a mortal price range.

-Flo

hermanv
03-16-2006, 10:45 AM
Planar speakers as a whole simply can not match the excursion of a dedicated cone woofer, and the panel can't realistically be placed in a reasonant box to improve their bass efficiency.

The traditional solution has been to make the panels bigger. Unfortunately this creates two problems; 1. They become large enough that those of us with houses whose rooms are of average size have real probelms with placement and 2. Making them bigger does nothing to reduce the speakers price.

Martin Logan has augmented the bass of many of their ESL speakers with cone woofers. Many of you know this has not always been as sucessful as might be hoped at a given price point. The latests efforts have gotten substantially better sonically but the pricing of the better models has gotten quite a bit higher.

Adding a seperate sub-woofer to a planar is not impossible, but it also is far from either cheap or easy, if you want to do it well.

I love planars, but I agree they are not the best choice at the price point we have been discussing. IMHO to do planar speakers well requires a large expensive planar, a well treated large room and a more powerful than usual amp, especially true for tube amplification.

Florian
03-16-2006, 11:00 AM
The traditional solution has been to make the panels bigger. Unfortunately this creates two problems; 1. They become large enough that those of us with houses whose rooms are of average size have real probelms with placement and 2. Making them bigger does nothing to reduce the speakers price.


Point one is not correct if you look at the Apogee Scintilla (flat to 20Hz and much more powerfull than any commercial snaily prices subwoofer), the Apogee Duetta (25Hz), my DIVAS play to 18HZ....... so for size the Apogee Scinitlla, Duetta and Caliper are wonderfull and need no stinking cone in a box.

Besides you know that the specs quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc... with 16 Hz extension is bogus and completely unrealistc in a normal room even with a Rel Stadium III.

Point2, is not important to me. I care about music, and if it requires a 6.4ft tall 300lbs speaker, then so be it.

As for price, i would much rather take a 1.6 for 1.6K that does 35Hz no problem, with NO box, whiked speed, much less colored and extension requirements and a more even surface wave.

Again, Quality or Quantity....take your pic.

Woochifer
03-16-2006, 03:15 PM
Point one is not correct if you look at the Apogee Scintilla (flat to 20Hz and much more powerfull than any commercial snaily prices subwoofer), the Apogee Duetta (25Hz), my DIVAS play to 18HZ....... so for size the Apogee Scinitlla, Duetta and Caliper are wonderfull and need no stinking cone in a box.

Does this address point one, or is it just another opportunity for you to name drop your speakers yet again? Hermanv's point was about the size necessary for a planar speaker to reproduce deep bass, and the placement problems that this incurs for typical rooms. Are you disputing this point or just twisting the topic to suit your agenda?


Besides you know that the specs quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc... with 16 Hz extension is bogus and completely unrealistc in a normal room even with a Rel Stadium III.

Show us a spec "quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc" that claims a 16 Hz extension. I've never seen a spec like that quoted from any of those manufacturers, except for the Paradigm Servo-15 subwoofer, which is capable of extending well below 16 Hz in-room, measures within 3 db down to 19 Hz under anecholic conditions, and can sustain 110 db levels anecholically. If you're going to attack manufacturers' specs, at least be factual/truthful about what they actually say.

Florian
03-17-2006, 12:24 AM
Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house. :17:

Woochifer
03-17-2006, 08:07 AM
Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house. :17:

Yup, right on cue, when caught in a lie/factual error, start with the insults and diversions to cover your backside. Uh, where was that "16 Hz extension" claim that "Paradigm, Axiom, B&W, etc." are making again? :cornut:

Florian
03-17-2006, 08:19 AM
Sorry, dont read your replys. I told you that MONTH ago, but i am sure someday you will understand. People are already ignoring your idiotic planar and high end bashing posts. Its a good start to get more people to hunt the musical joy instead of the best buy of the week.

Woochifer
03-17-2006, 08:47 AM
Sorry, dont read your replys. I told you that MONTH ago, but i am sure someday you will understand. People are already ignoring your idiotic planar and high end bashing posts. Its a good start to get more people to hunt the musical joy instead of the best buy of the week.

So, if you're not reading my replies, why are you responding to them? :sleep:

Just a convenient excuse when you have nothing to offer up that affirms your assertion that "Paradigm, Axiom, B&W, etc." are claiming "16 Hz extension."

PAT.P
03-17-2006, 12:42 PM
Another thread on its way to the steel cage thanks to Flo,what else is new.Must be the PMS time of the month?

PAT.P
03-17-2006, 12:45 PM
Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house. :17:Did'nt we add section for "Planar" Flo just to keep you satisfy?

RGA
03-17-2006, 06:57 PM
OK, I just got back from The Audible Difference, where I listened to Magnepans 1.6 and some floorstanding speaker from Revel (I've never heard about them before and I don't know the model, but the price was around $1400 for pair). I also listened to B&W 704 a couple of days ago. That's about all my high-end listening experience.

Yes, I must confess that I'm a very uneducated listener. Well, I've been playing piano for 30 years and guitar for many years, too. So, I believe I'm not hopeless and have good ears. But still, my audio listening experience was mostly conditioned by unnaturally enhanced cheap audio systems, or car audio that didn't give the true sound, but sounded "nice".

What I've just found - the high-end audio sounds different :)

So far, I haven't heard a system that made me say "wow".
I expected a lot from B&W 704, but was not that impressed. Maybe, I expected too much.

Now, the Magnepans today... Yes, they give very different kind of sound, and (after 40 minutes of listening) I can't yet decide if I like it or not. Yes, the sound is very clear and open, but I'd like more bass and more drive (I'm not sure if I use the right terms, but I use drive in the same sense as in "rock concert dirve"). But they give beautiful impression that the musicians are in the room (is it called imaging?). Actually, I tried to move from spot to spot in the room and couldn't say that I saw a well defined sweet spot. The "image" was changing a little from point to point, but it was reasonably good everywhere in the room. Maybe, I just don't hear it yet - need more practice.

Then I compared the same CDs in the same room with Revels. They delivered more bass and fuller sound, but the quality (especially mid frequencies) were not up to the Magnepan. I couldn't hear that many nuances, especially in human voices and acoustic guitar. Also, I could hear very well that music is coming right from the speakers, while with Magnepans the music was everywhere in the room.

Oh, one more discovery I made: not all CDs are equal :) These speakers, especially Magnepans, showed all the defects and shortcomings of some records. I could clearly hear that the frequency range for some pop music was compressed; acoustic guitars for some live records were recorded slightly distorted, etc. Also, it's cool to find some sounds that I've never heard before: sounds of fingers on frets, fingers touching hand drums, etc. Very interesting.

So, I have to check the other systems now to make my mind about Magnepans.

Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it!


You don't need to be some self proclaimed golden ear to make the assessments you made. I have ehard the Magnepan and 704 but not the Revels but your assessment is failrly close to mine. There is an openness and clarity (soundstage and imaging) which makes in this price range the Magnepan a very solid consideration -- but it also lacks drive and has IMO a seriously curtailed bass ability at higher levels. Their claimed bass repsonse of 40hz -3db is probably true -- my Floorstanding Wharfedale's claim the same bass depth - but listen to the two and perceptually the Wharfedales really drive the bass home while the Maggies seems light in the loafers. They simply do not move enough air to be taken seriously. BUT, they also do some of thise other things extremely well - far better than the B&W's that make the 1.6 real hard to say no too.

It's a trade-off and you will always make a trade-off. So I would make the trade-off for the music you are going to listen to.