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jaimejdv
02-15-2006, 12:53 PM
Hi everybody, I've just bought my Yamaha HTR5890 and I am very disappointed with the today's speakers, so expensive and nothing like old speakers sound... are there any kind of speakers with the old sound? I remember my Technics stereo big speakers and perfect sound, I can't believe there are no excellent speakers under 800!!!! I already read some suggestions but I live in Miami and I only know Best Buy, Circuit City and Sound Advice..they don't have any of the speakers that I read..

Please help me to buy an excellent pair of speakers without wasting too much money

topspeed
02-15-2006, 01:22 PM
Bose? ;)

Speakers don't sound like the one's you're used to because they are a lot more accurate now. For your tastes, that might not be such a good thing and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You like what you like. If that's the sound you're looking for, I'd suggest either Cerwin Vega or, if you really want to have some fun, look into vintage Klipsch speakers.

http://gon8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1139771905.jpg

These Forte II's (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1144956001) are currently listed on audion and there are plenty of others to choose from. A quick glance noted a pair of Chorus', Forte's, and others that would do any system proud. I'd have no problem adding some vintage Klipsh's for rocking out.

Hope this helps.

BTW: Starting your own thread is the correct way to pose this question. Hijacking other threads, such as your post in emaidel's B&W thread, is frowned upon here. You may want to delete that.

drseid
02-15-2006, 03:41 PM
Hi everybody, I've just bought my Yamaha HTR5890 and I am very disappointed with the today's speakers, so expensive and nothing like old speakers sound... are there any kind of speakers with the old sound? I remember my Technics stereo big speakers and perfect sound, I can't believe there are no excellent speakers under 800!!!! I already read some suggestions but I live in Miami and I only know Best Buy, Circuit City and Sound Advice..they don't have any of the speakers that I read..

Please help me to buy an excellent pair of speakers without wasting too much money
Maybe try audiogon.com for a used pair of Spendor 3/5s from their classic series. Great sound that is not too "new world." Used the speakers can be had just under $800.

---Dave

Woochifer
02-15-2006, 05:02 PM
What it boils down to is the market moving beyond the vintage JBL sound, which is what the older Technics speakers emulated (and in my experience with Technics speakers, they sound far from perfect). 30 years ago, the JBL L100 was the dominant speaker on the market, and a large part of the industry imitated the wide box dimensions and sound approach that JBL used. Unfortunately, most of those speakers were very inaccurate and seemed to only do a decent job at replicating the L100's worst characteristics.

Since then, a lot of research has been done with how people hear things and how the sound characteristics of speakers shape those perceptions. On top of that, the widespread adoption of the Thiele-Small parameters during the design process has made it easier to precisely project the tonal properties based on how the driver characteristics match with a specific box dimension and port opening. In general, the vast majority of today's speakers are far more accurate than the ones typically available 30 years ago. They may not give you the big boomy sound that you're used to, but they provide a much more accurate rendering of the source signal.

If you have a definite preference for the vintage JBL sound, the only speakers on the market that carry on that sound with minimal change would be the Cerwin Vega E-series. If you're willing to look at newer speakers that take a more evolved approach to the "boom and sizzle" sound of the vintage JBL/west coast speakers, you should give the Definitive Technology tower speakers w/ the built-in active subwoofers a listen. Or you can combine a basic Klipsch, Polk, Energy, Paradigm, or PSB bookshelf speaker with a SVS or Hsu subwoofer. Otherwise, you're limited to old speakers to get that old speaker sound.

drseid
02-15-2006, 07:17 PM
Ignore my post... I did not see you want a big JBL sound... The tiny Spendors I recommended are definitely not it.

Unfortunately I do not follow that kind of sound, so I really don't have a good substitute for you... Maybe a big Polk speaker? I can't stand them myself, but they may be to your liking.

Good luck, and sorry for my misunderstanding...

---Dave

N. Abstentia
02-15-2006, 07:28 PM
A Polk definitely would not be the way to go...they are totally opposite.

If you want that big vintage JBL sound you will probably want to buy the raw drivers and build the cabinets. Those big JBL 15" midwoofers do have quite a distinct sound, and Weber speakers actually manufactures a speaker that mimics the old JBL D130's. They won't be accurate or pristine, but they will be big!

jaimejdv
02-15-2006, 08:02 PM
Hello again, I guess I have to change my request, You are really experts in this issue so, please tell me which speakers I need to buy to fully enjoy my new yamaha receiver? I'm not that expert in sound but in these days I love my Alpine Car Stereo with 3 Way Alpine speakers in the back, boston speakers in the front and 12" Pioneer Subwoofer.... and about the suggestions that you've already given to me I am considering the combination of bookshelfs with subwoofer...

drseid
02-16-2006, 03:36 AM
Hello again, I guess I have to change my request, You are really experts in this issue so, please tell me which speakers I need to buy to fully enjoy my new yamaha receiver? I'm not that expert in sound but in these days I love my Alpine Car Stereo with 3 Way Alpine speakers in the back, boston speakers in the front and 12" Pioneer Subwoofer.... and about the suggestions that you've already given to me I am considering the combination of bookshelfs with subwoofer...
Well, if the Boston speakers in your car are from the Rally series, I am pretty familiar with the sound you like (as I used to own them)... Home audio is like another world from car audio, IMO. Some brands that I liked in car audio I would not touch for the home and vice-versa...

That said, if you are going the sub/sat route then BA makes home stereo speakers as well. In the home audio world they do not have the same reputation as their Pro and Rally series do in the car stereo world, but they could be a good match for your preferences (and it sounds like your preferences go a bit against the grain anyway). Also you could give a brand like Definitive Technology a listen.

As for subwoofers, if you are looking for max SPL, while still integrating decently with your mains, SVS is a very good choice (Internet only) -- their bottom of the line sub at $500 is still amazing and huge. If you paired a $300 +/- set of BA mini-monitors after hearing them in the store, with an SVS sub at $500, you may have created close to what you are looking for.

---Dave

markw
02-16-2006, 05:58 AM
Hi everybody, I've just bought my Yamaha HTR5890 and I am very disappointed with the today's speakers, so expensive and nothing like old speakers sound... are there any kind of speakers with the old sound? I remember my Technics stereo big speakers and perfect sound, I can't believe there are no excellent speakers under 800!!!! I already read some suggestions but I live in Miami and I only know Best Buy, Circuit City and Sound Advice..they don't have any of the speakers that I read..

Please help me to buy an excellent pair of speakers without wasting too much moneyWithout knowing specificaly what you are looking for, these modertely pricesd speakerds deliver a"big" sound. "Big" woofer speakers have pretty much gone the way of the Dodo.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ATHASF2%2E2&product_name=F2%2E2%20Speakers%20Black,%20Pair

It's been rumored that Beat Buy would be selling these sometime in the near future.

Or, if you're feeling froggy and are willing to look fairly new* used, the DCM "KX" series speakers, either 10" or 12", would most likely suit your ctriteria, as would some of the red surround Cerwin Vega speakers.

*within the past 10 years or so.

2chAlex
02-16-2006, 08:42 AM
If your wanting to go with that large woofer type. Check with harmanaudio.com they did have some JBL I think 312's that are a 10" 3 way. Don't know how you would go about a center and surrounds to go with those. I also agree with the previous thoughts about
speaker advancement. Your choices are endless and that's where the fun is, in the search. Good luck

2chAlex
02-16-2006, 09:37 AM
I correct myself, the JBL's are S-310

E-Stat
02-16-2006, 12:17 PM
30 years ago, the JBL L100 was the dominant speaker on the market, and a large part of the industry imitated the wide box dimensions and sound approach that JBL used.
The other dominate flavor at the time were the AR / Advent designs that I still find quite natural sounding today (if not a pinch boxy with cabinet diffraction issues). I have a double pair of New Advents in my vintage system that do not share the mid bass / upper midrange peaks of the Century.

I am amazed at how good these vintage speakers sound today (albeit refoamed and with recapped and rewired xovers) when fed with nice upstream components.

rw

Feanor
02-16-2006, 01:14 PM
What it boils down to is the market moving beyond the vintage JBL sound, ....
Around 1971-72 I heard a pair of JBL bookshelf speakers and quickly fell in love with them. I seem to recall they were the Lancer 77's. I liked the bright, aggressive sound. I didn't get them right away because they were, the princely sum of $700, (compare $3000-3500 today).

However a few weeks later I had the opportunity to compare them directly with the AR 3a's. It was pretty clear that it was the 3a's that hand the more resolved and natural sound. (The AR's were cheaper too, <$600).

GMichael
02-16-2006, 02:26 PM
Am I missing something? If he likes the sound of JBL's, why not listen to a pair of JBL E80's or E100's to see if he likes those? Are they that much different than the old series?

Woochifer
02-16-2006, 04:02 PM
Am I missing something? If he likes the sound of JBL's, why not listen to a pair of JBL E80's or E100's to see if he likes those? Are they that much different than the old series?

Even the JBLs no longer sound like JBLs. While they retained a bit of the thump in the midbass, the current Northridge series is noticeably different from the vintage big woofer JBLs.


The other dominate flavor at the time were the AR / Advent designs that I still find quite natural sounding today (if not a pinch boxy with cabinet diffraction issues). I have a double pair of New Advents in my vintage system that do not share the mid bass / upper midrange peaks of the Century.

I am amazed at how good these vintage speakers sound today (albeit refoamed and with recapped and rewired xovers) when fed with nice upstream components.

Yup, the three major groupings of that era were the West Coast, New England, and British speakers, each with their own distinct tonal properties and adherents. My understanding is that the JBL L100 was the best selling speaker during the early to mid-70s, and those generally awful L100 knockoffs were everywhere (including almost every rack system I saw). I liked the acoustic suspension ARs and Advents, but thought that the New England sound came together more when Polk and Boston Acoustics emerged in the late-70s.


Around 1971-72 I heard a pair of JBL bookshelf speakers and quickly fell in love with them. I seem to recall they were the Lancer 77's. I liked the bright, aggressive sound. I didn't get them right away because they were, the princely sum of $700, (compare $3000-3500 today).

However a few weeks later I had the opportunity to compare them directly with the AR 3a's. It was pretty clear that it was the 3a's that hand the more resolved and natural sound. (The AR's were cheaper too, <$600).

I grew up with a pair of the JBL L65 Jubals. My first listenings with my friend's Advents were pretty revealing in how those L65s colored the sound. But, the widespread use of JBLs in studios for pop recordings meant that a lot of music in that era sounded "right" when played through JBLs (the flipside is that a lot of other music sounded really bad).

As the 80s moved forward, less and less music sounded optimal on those JBLs, and I think the introduction of the CD and digital recording exposed a lot of the weaknesses with the vintage JBL sound. With vinyl and compressed multitracked analog recordings, JBL could get away with a hot high end (since vinyl will more gently roll off the highs) and boosted bass (since vinyl generally did not include a lot of deep bass). Once the CD came along, and recordings raised the dynamic range, the JBL sound made more and more music sound overly bassy and harsh in the highs.

The one thing I will say about JBL though is that the vintage models were very well constructed, and used a lot of overengineered and innovative driver designs. Just on those L65s, the tweeter is made from a plexiglas prism, while the woofer uses alnico magnets, and the cabinet is made out of solid walnut (not the best for dampening resonances, but damn does it look good!).

Feanor
02-16-2006, 05:20 PM
...

The one thing I will say about JBL though is that the vintage models were very well constructed, and used a lot of overengineered and innovative driver designs. Just on those L65s, the tweeter is made from a plexiglas prism, while the woofer uses alnico magnets, and the cabinet is made out of solid walnut (not the best for dampening resonances, but damn does it look good!).
It's my recollection too that the quality of the JBL components and finished speakers was outstanding. They were very handsome to look at.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1971-home/page13.jpg
The Lancer 77 used an LE20 "direct radiator", an LE10A woofer, and PR10 passive radiator if I'm not mistaken ...

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/catalogs/1976-comp.htm

accastil
02-17-2006, 02:18 AM
Hello again, I guess I have to change my request, You are really experts in this issue so, please tell me which speakers I need to buy to fully enjoy my new yamaha receiver? I'm not that expert in sound but in these days I love my Alpine Car Stereo with 3 Way Alpine speakers in the back, boston speakers in the front and 12" Pioneer Subwoofer.... and about the suggestions that you've already given to me I am considering the combination of bookshelfs with subwoofer...

yes, bookshelves and subs are good for music..have alisten to paradigm reference 20 V3 and you may not need a sub anymore.

Feanor
02-17-2006, 05:31 AM
Without knowing specificaly what you are looking for, these modertely pricesd speakerds deliver a"big" sound. "Big" woofer speakers have pretty much gone the way of the Dodo....
.
Here's a new DIY project from Darren Kuzma at Parts Express. It would have some thing like that JBL sound of yore.:D

This speaker utilizes a 12" woofer, midrange, and horn tweeter, all from Goldwood.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/goldenboys/index.html

cubdog
02-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Of the older JBL's I've heard the L-96 is my favorite. Nicely balance and not as boomy as some. A good vintage choice if you can find them.

cubdog

Century L100
02-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Of the older JBL's I've heard the L-96 is my favorite. Nicely balance and not as boomy as some. A good vintage choice if you can find them.


I agree. This was one of my favorites back when I was employed in the audio business. I've seen a few on Ebay lately.

Also, the L110 (if you can find them). This was the replacement for the famed -- ta da! -- Century L100. Not as West Coastish...flatter and less upper bassy than its predecessor. It also had a 1" dome tweeter, which gave it nice open high end without shrillness or sizzle.

I remember the L112 vaguely. It was the successor to the 110, with a 12" woofer instead of a 10" and it was more like the L100/4311 series, I think.

jtgofish
02-17-2006, 06:53 PM
I agree. This was one of my favorites back when I was employed in the audio business. I've seen a few on Ebay lately.

Also, the L110 (if you can find them). This was the replacement for the famed -- ta da! -- Century L100. Not as West Coastish...flatter and less upper bassy than its predecessor. It also had a 1" dome tweeter, which gave it nice open high end without shrillness or sizzle.

I remember the L112 vaguely. It was the successor to the 110, with a 12" woofer instead of a 10" and it was more like the L100/4311 series, I think.

Doing up old speakers as well as building new ones has been my hobby for 25 years.The Century L100s have very good woofers and mids[alnico magnets] but the tweeters are apalling and largely responsible for the harsh,aggressive sound.Replacing these with a modern soft or aluminium dome [Peerless or Vifa] or the Vifa ring radiators improves them signifigantly.
People who like the JBL sound often also like Gale 401s which are actually much more refined and balanced sounding-and image superbly too,but on the end of a high powered high current amp are one of the best rock speakers around. The chrome ended ones are also the most beautiful speaker ever made.

JT

jaimejdv
02-22-2006, 07:11 AM
Hello everybody, I want to thank you for all your recomendations and say bye for a while, I bought an inexpensive set of JBL speakers (SCS 300.7), I had decided to buy the cheapest speakers to start and save more money to upgrade them in the future, so that was my buy, I paid $ 398 in brandsmart and for me was the best sound of all of the same price packages (sony, infinity, others i can't remember)

skyfyredragon
02-22-2006, 06:21 PM
I'm not sure what the "old sound" really is (i'm eighteen) but I just purchased a pair of Sony SS-MB350H "bookshelf" speakers (quotes b/c they're almost two feet tall) and they are absolutely incredible. Honestly, I kept checking to make sure that the subwoofer (which i now have no need for) was unplugged. I had read reviews that had said that these speakers didn't supply enough bass. All I can say is that they are fantastic. I played several pieces of classical music on them through my Sansui AU-717 Integrated Amp and they all sounded fantastic (Except for the fuzzies caused by my amp). They're 3-ways in case anyone's wondering.

Skyfyre

Scott Carr
02-25-2006, 12:42 PM
I just sold my PSB Stratus Mini's, which are excellent speakers for classical and jazz but not very sensitive. They were tested by Stereophile at 85db/1watt/1metre. My musical tastes are wide and they include alot of trance and techno. I exercise in the same room as my sound system where I like to crank the techno. The dimensions of my sound room is 27ft by 11ft and I found that the Mini's weren't filling it enough for my tastes unless I really cranked my amp. I desired more room filling music and bass. My choice was either 2 subs for stereo sound or sell my speakers and replace them with more efficent floorstanding speakers. I listened to Klipsch, Monitor Audio, and PSB floor standers and read reviews on Cerwin Vega. I really enjoyed all of them but they still seemed to lack great bass. My friend has a pair of CV AT-8 which I also auditioned. Wow! Old small speakers with bass! After reading the reviews on this website I decided to get these unfashionable Cerwin Vegas. I narrowed it down to the V series and finally decided on the V-15F. They are really sensitive at 102db/1watt/1metre with response down to 26hz which is subwoofer territory. I have just ordered them and yet to receive them. Can't wait! You may want to consider this as well. You can find Cerwin Vegas at very resonable prices from Online dealers. Just google it. Check them out at http://www.cerwinvega.com/.

Feanor
02-25-2006, 02:58 PM
...

My musical tastes are wide and they include alot of trance and techno.
...

... would recommend Audio Notes ;) :D

Scott Carr
02-25-2006, 06:43 PM
Hi Bill, and thanks for the heads up on Audio Note speakers. This is a loudspeaker company which I've not heard of until now. I just had a brief look at their website and it does look like this is what I'm looking for. Have you listened to any of these speakers? Do you own a pair? By the way I know a Bill Bailey who lives just outside of Windsor,ON in Puce. Thanks again! Scott

Feanor
02-25-2006, 06:53 PM
Hi Bill, and thanks for the heads up on Audio Note speakers. This is a loudspeaker company which I've not heard of until now. I just had a brief look at their website and it does look like this is what I'm looking for. Have you listened to any of these speakers? Do you own a pair? By the way I know a Bill Bailey who lives just outside of Windsor,ON in Puce. Thanks again! Scott
If RGA his around, he can expound the virtues of Audio Note. But it struck me from your comments that RGA would certainly recomment AN speakers to address you issues. As for myself, let's just say I don't listen to trance or techno.

There are usually a few Bill Bailey's around but I'm not the one in Windsor :)

drseid
02-25-2006, 07:05 PM
Hi Bill, and thanks for the heads up on Audio Note speakers. This is a loudspeaker company which I've not heard of until now. I just had a brief look at their website and it does look like this is what I'm looking for. Have you listened to any of these speakers? Do you own a pair? By the way I know a Bill Bailey who lives just outside of Windsor,ON in Puce. Thanks again! Scott
Not to butt in, but I have heard them (the AN J/Spe)...

I would make sure your room is not too big for them, as I believe they have pretty strict room volume requirements to sound their best (they are designed for small to medium sized rooms, if I remember correctly)... You may want to PM RGA, as he is definitely our resident AN expert (I am anything but).

As to their sound, when setup close to the front wall or in a corner, their low bass is absolutely the real deal. It is the most low bass I have heard in a standmount for sure. I have heard more *tuneful* bass, but not in volume, nor depth (and don't get me wrong, it was plenty tuneful, just not the best I have heard from a standmount). As for the rest of the speaker, I found it to be a very good overall performer, if maybe a tad uninvolving to my tastes and maybe missing that last bit of detail I have heard with "the best". Definitely worth an audition if you have the cash and your room meets the requirements...

---Dave