JFK Assassination

[JOEBIALEK]

Perhaps known as one of the greatest murder mysteries of all time, the assassination of President John F. Kennedy has for years intrigued scholars, authors and the average American citizen. The assassination can be classified into two distinct categories: method and significance. Few would argue that too much emphasis has been given to the method and very little to the significance. This is exactly how the perpetrators would like it to be. Photographic evidence along with eyewitness testimony has already conclusively proven that JFK was shot by more than one assassin. The Mary Mormon photo clearly shows the profile of a shooter behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. It is obviously someone wearing a policeman's uniform {some speculate it was J.D. Tippit}. This was the fatal head shot. Two other bullets struck the President; the first one entered at the base of the throat and the second struck him in the back. While the positions of the assassins makes for a good game of clue, the more important issue is the significance of the assassination.

Many have speculated that the former Soviet Union, Cuba, the KKK, the Mafia, LBJ, CIA and the FBI all had strong motives to attempt this. However, given the connection of Lee Harvey Oswald to the CIA and Jack Ruby to the Mafia along with the altered autopsy reports, the evidence points to a coup de' dat by the CIA. They did it because they believed JFK was taking the United States on the wrong path towards dealing with communism. That is the reason why the cover-up has been sustained for so long. The perpetrators honestly believed they were doing the right thing for the United States at the time. The will of the people was discarded in favor of preserving the nation as they saw fit. Unfortunately, they didn't realize the long term effects of the assassination. One result was the increased power of capitalism over democracy. Profit has become more important than freedom. Corporations are more concerned with increasing the wealth of a select few than with promoting the general welfare of the very nation that allows them to conduct business. A second result has been the subordination of this nation's civil liberties to the private agendas of the powers that be. The only opinions that are accepted today are those that further the bottom line. Contrary opinions are discouraged and distorted by spin doctors. The only explanation for the lack of attention given to the significance of the assassination is because the government, the military and the media all know what happened and to expose the event for what it really was goes to the central core of what constitutes the United States of America.

[kexodusc]

I thought Dick Cheney shot him?

[Geoffcin]

I thought Dick Cheney shot him?

What, the gang that coudn't shoot straight?!

(I bet he thought it was Osama peaking out of the grass)

[kexodusc]

Well, when you're drunk outta your mind, a lot of things look like quail.

[GMichael]

Well, when you're drunk outta your mind, a lot of things look like quail.

He shot Dan Quail too? He should switch to cookies.

[Bernd]

Perhaps known as one of the greatest murder mysteries of all time, the assassination of President John F. Kennedy has for years intrigued scholars, authors and the average American citizen. The assassination can be classified into two distinct categories: method and significance. Few would argue that too much emphasis has been given to the method and very little to the significance. This is exactly how the perpetrators would like it to be. Photographic evidence along with eyewitness testimony has already conclusively proven that JFK was shot by more than one assassin. The Mary Mormon photo clearly shows the profile of a shooter behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. It is obviously someone wearing a policeman's uniform {some speculate it was J.D. Tippit}. This was the fatal head shot. Two other bullets struck the President; the first one entered at the base of the throat and the second struck him in the back. While the positions of the assassins makes for a good game of clue, the more important issue is the significance of the assassination.

Many have speculated that the former Soviet Union, Cuba, the KKK, the Mafia, LBJ, CIA and the FBI all had strong motives to attempt this. However, given the connection of Lee Harvey Oswald to the CIA and Jack Ruby to the Mafia along with the altered autopsy reports, the evidence points to a coup de' dat by the CIA. They did it because they believed JFK was taking the United States on the wrong path towards dealing with communism. That is the reason why the cover-up has been sustained for so long. The perpetrators honestly believed they were doing the right thing for the United States at the time. The will of the people was discarded in favor of preserving the nation as they saw fit. Unfortunately, they didn't realize the long term effects of the assassination. One result was the increased power of capitalism over democracy. Profit has become more important than freedom. Corporations are more concerned with increasing the wealth of a select few than with promoting the general welfare of the very nation that allows them to conduct business. A second result has been the subordination of this nation's civil liberties to the private agendas of the powers that be. The only opinions that are accepted today are those that further the bottom line. Contrary opinions are discouraged and distorted by spin doctors. The only explanation for the lack of attention given to the significance of the assassination is because the government, the military and the media all know what happened and to expose the event for what it really was goes to the central core of what constitutes the United States of America.

Hey a kindred spirit-"From Freedom to Slavery".
A lot has been written about this and I think the truth will never come out as it is locked in the Governments closet.
To my mind a more urgent question is-"Why can't the powers that be not find Osama Bin Laden?". Not finding him is a valid reason to continue illegal occupations of other nations. What is worrying is, that the overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens are decent people,but allow it to happen.Why? I somehow understand, as I would be worried living in a country which kills it's citizens in death camps (what else would you call Death Row).
Arnold Schwarzenegger for President-Holy ****, God help us all.

Peace

Bernd

[kexodusc]

I don't think the US really wants to find Osama. My father was a soldier/pilot and still works teaches at for the Air Force. When I go home to visit most of the troops I talk with are in agreement that as long as Osama Bin Laden is "out there" they'll have more support when they apply for budget increases to replace outdated and dangerous equipment, etc. So you send the minimum number of troops over to do the job, and stick to all the safe spots when conducting a search.

I'm not a general or a politician, but when so many soldiers tell me they'd do things differently (and are generally in agreement on what they'd do differently) you have to ask.

I have more and more respect for our soldiers. Following orders you believe in your heart to be in poor judgement without hesitation, especially when the stakes are so high, is quite admirable. Despite all the parades and TV kudos we give them, we really don't do enough to say thanks.

As for JFK...I can't help but wonder if he'd be remembered as fondly if he wasn't assassinated...or would he just be that generation's Clinton?
Congress moved to have the documents released in the 2020's sometime, but I'm sure by the time the files are made public many will be missing, blacked out, etc.
We may never know.

When I was in school, our history books said that Oswald killed him, period. No question, no debates, no mention of alternative (and more probable) theories.

[Resident Loser]

...certain traffic offenses would be capital crimes...


...as I would be worried living in a country which kills it's citizens in death camps (what else would you call Death Row).
Arnold Schwarzenegger for President-Holy ****, God help us all.

Peace

Bernd

If I wuz you, I'd watch the "death camp" analogy...What about the victim's of those poor, poor politcal prisoners? Since I'm sure that's the next characterization, just some pre-emptive activity on my part.

Those "people" on death row aren't there because they've been good little boys and girls...given the fact the appeals process is what it is, they can write books, find God, become jailhouse lawyers, and all the rest...what about the victims?...and their plans, their families, their lack of a future?..."Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord", but the Lord works in mysterious ways...And now with DNA testing, perhaps there are fewer chances for any mistakes.

They put down vicious animals with four legs, no reason they shouldn't do the ones with two. Besides, life in prison/no parole is a viable option for cases with obvious extenuating circumstances...for premeditated murder in the first, I say lock and load.

jimHJJ(...BTW, the Governator is naturalized, the Constitution would need to be changed...I don't see that happnin'...Wasn't this a thread about the Kennedy assassination?...I think there may have been a conspiracy...I don't know how or why or who, and I'd venture a guess we probably never will...for sure...)

[markw]

Wasn't this a thread about the Kennedy assassinationYou know how it is. Ferriners with a lousy economy and high unemplotment that got their arses wupped in WW2 for trying to take over the world and exterminate Jews just love dumping on the US.

[Resident Loser]

...(on a subject waaay off-topic) Howdja make out with el Blizzardo?


You know how it is. Ferriners with a lousy economy and high unemplotment that got their arses wupped in WW2 for trying to take over the world and exterminate Jews just love dumping on the US.

What can we expect next? Maltreatment of the Indians...Slavery? Let's do a little more pre-emptive responding...Anyone care to remember it was the Europeans what started 'em both?

jimHJJ(...geez, some of this stuff is SOOO tedious...)

[Bernd]

...certain traffic offenses would be capital crimes...



If I wuz you, I'd watch the "death camp" analogy...What about the victim's of those poor, poor politcal prisoners? Since I'm sure that's the next characterization, just some pre-emptive activity on my part.

Those "people" on death row aren't there because they've been good little boys and girls...given the fact the appeals process is what it is, they can write books, find God, become jailhouse lawyers, and all the rest...what about the victims?...and their plans, their families, their lack of a future?..."Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord", but the Lord works in mysterious ways...And now with DNA testing, perhaps there are fewer chances for any mistakes.

They put down vicious animals with four legs, no reason they shouldn't do the ones with two. Besides, life in prison/no parole is a viable option for cases with obvious extenuating circumstances...for premeditated murder in the first, I say lock and load.

jimHJJ(...BTW, the Governator is naturalized, the Constitution would need to be changed...I don't see that happnin'...Wasn't this a thread about the Kennedy assassination?...I think there may have been a conspiracy...I don't know how or why or who, and I'd venture a guess we probably never will...for sure...)

Hi,

Quote
"Those people on death row aren't there because they been good little boys and girls..."

Not quiet so. I give a true story and you decide for yourself.
A young man from Chicago meets a girl from Texas.They do what comes natural she changes shape, he does the honorable thing and ups sticks and moves to Texas to marry her.
He finds it hard to find work meets some older guys (4 in number) and they hook up. They drink and want to score some Dope. No money. A plan is hatched to rob a Gay man. So they pick one up hitch hiking and drive him to a park. Then the two older friends suddenly produce a knife and a gun. All six march to a dark part of the park. The guy hands over his money and the young Chicago man and two of the others go back to the car when they hear gun shots.
All are arrested pretty soon and the two older friends are held together in a cell and get their story right. They point the finger at the young Chicago man. He gets the death penalty they two older ones get 50 and 20 years.
Some years into the Chicago mans appeal one of the older guys admits in writing to his girlfriend and in an interview that Chicago man had nothing to do with the killing of the gay guy.
Didn't seem to matter.
The Chicago man (which was my friend) was killed by the state of Texas on May the 19th last year. No evidence other then the testimony of two known fellons and liars cut his life short and deprived his Daughter of a Dad, his Mother of a Son, his Sister of a Brother and me of a Friend.
TDCJ # 999224
So no DNA could have stopped that.
And one more about DNA. What about Joy Gilchrist in Oklahoma? Be very afraid about incompetent Lab technicians.
And yes I have to agree that vicious animals are to be put down. Most off the time they are made vicious by their keepers or/and through neglect.
By killing citizens you create a whole lot of Hate and more victims. And by killing inocent inmates you create unspeakable pain.And if it is such a correct thing to do-Why not have the executions in public or even better on the TV "IIIIIIIIT'S EXECUTION TIME-right after these messages. I wonder who would advertise. So why kill the condemed in secret.
I always read quotes from the religious freaks about an eye for an eye. If they would read the Bible as they say they do they would find a passage that states That no man shall be punished on the word of just one man alone. Or something to that effect. They are hundreds in the death Camp on such evidence alone.
Let's hope for all our sake that the US can stop this barbaric treatment of humans and become the great Nation that has always been promised.

As for the german accent thing. My country has started two World Wars and Germany has become a most peace loving and tolerant nation through defeat and lesson learned.
My Grandfather was a School Headmaster. In 1936 he was asked to join the Nazi Party. He didn't. The following day he lost his job and cleaned the toilets in the same School and endured abuse by a sinister new young headmaster-but he never budged.
I am very grateful to the US to provide the food for my family during the blockade and I am far from being anti american. Just the way the nation is run by big business and Neo Conservatives is very worrying for many.
Phew.

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

...(on a subject waaay off-topic) Howdja make out with el Blizzardo?24 inches, not counting drifting. Having to park on the street (Jersey has cities, too) and dealing with a conscientious gang of street plows assured me of plenty of exercise digging out our cars.




What can we expect next? Maltreatment of the Indians...Slavery? Let's do a little more pre-emptive responding...Anyone care to remember it was the Europeans what started 'em both?Probably something equally inappropiate thet they have no real idea about. After all, they think they're the cradle of political and personal freedom, the facts you mention notwithstanding.

Gee, do ya really think a unified Europe will handle this Iraq situation like they say? ...do you really think they are able to?

After all, they are a heckuva lot closer than we are and missles only have a limited range.

[Resident Loser]

...the one thing I've come to view as a skeptic is Oswald/Ruby...

It was all too neat...like an hour crime drama...Oswald's history presented almost immediately, in the Marines, defects to the USSR, "Fair play for Cuba", pictures with the rifle...all the rest...Much too easy...even with the Internet, I think one would be hard pressed to compile that much info and incriminating evidence in that short a time frame...Sorta' like an obit, ready and just waiting. And not fer nuttin', Lee Harvey didn't really strike me as the brightest bulb on the tree...either he was the "best" at keeping his cover or he was simply a patsy. Then Ruby gets into the cop house, in spite of the fact that he runs a strip-club and may have nefarious connections and shoots the poor b@stard...and the two detectives flanking Oswald, can you say less than vigilant? Deer in the headlights...

I vividly recall seeing it live on TeeVee that Sunday, my mom gettin' ready for Mass...talk about weird...

Tons of plausible reasons why it all happened, CIA, LBJ, Castro, mafia...just say no to 24 years of Kennedy's...

jimHJJ(...take your pick...)

[JSE]

The Chicago man (which was my friend) was killed by the state of Texas on May the 19th last year. No evidence other then the testimony of two known fellons and liars cut his life short and deprived his Daughter of a Dad, his Mother of a Son, his Sister of a Brother and me of a Friend.
TDCJ # 999224
So no DNA could have stopped that.

Maybe he should have been thinking about his family when he was holding up the man? Sounds like a real "stand up" guy. :mad: Fair or not, he made a choice that day and has now suffered consequences. Sounds like he got delt an unfair hand, but it's hard to have a lot of sympathy for a person like that. You know, a criminal.

JSE

[Bernd]

24 inches, not counting drifting. Having to park on the street (Jersey has cities, too) and dealing with a conscientious gang of street plows assured me of plenty of exercise digging out our cars.



Probably something equally inappropiate thet they have no real idea about. After all, they think they're the cradle of political and personal freedom, the facts you mention notwithstanding.

Gee, do ya really think a unified Europe will handle this Iraq situation like they say? ...do you really think they are able to?

After all, they are a heckuva lot closer than we are and missles only have a limited range.

Yes Native Americans were treated appallingly and were lied to.
My response had nothing to do with "Dumping on the US". But the track record of America isn't too good. Every right wing Government since the second World War has been supported by the U.S. Now that is shameful.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Maybe he should have been thinking about his family when he was holding up the man? Sounds like a real "stand up" guy. :mad: Fair or not, he made a choice that day and has now suffered consequences. Sounds like he got delt an unfair hand, but it's hard to have a lot of sympathy for a person like that. You know, a criminal.

JSE

I agree and I guess you and I will never find ouselves in such a situation, but if we do and this system is still in operation-well bad luck.
He was executed for not killing a person. Nobody is saying that criminal behaviour is acceptable. It is a more fundamental argument for getting rid of the death Penalty. As long as it remains these gross miscarriages of justice will continue.It is a lot easier to argue these points if you are not involved. If I would follow your thought-" Why not execute all "Criminals" and have it done with". Can you imagine what you are left with. The Third Reich reincarnated. Friends spying on friends and citizens too scared to say what the believe in.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

Hi,

Quote
"Those people on death row aren't there because they been good little boys and girls..."

Not quiet so. I give a true story and you decide for yourself.
A young man from Chicago meets a girl from Texas.They do what comes natural she changes shape, he does the honorable thing and ups sticks and moves to Texas to marry her.
He finds it hard to find work meets some older guys (4 in number) and they hook up. They drink and want to score some Dope. No money. A plan is hatched to rob a Gay man. So they pick one up hitch hiking and drive him to a park. Then the two older friends suddenly produce a knife and a gun. All six march to a dark part of the park. The guy hands over his money and the young Chicago man and two of the others go back to the car when they hear gun shots.
All are arrested pretty soon and the two older friends are held together in a cell and get their story right. They point the finger at the young Chicago man. He gets the death penalty they two older ones get 50 and 20 years.
Some years into the Chicago mans appeal one of the older guys admits in writing to his girlfriend and in an interview that Chicago man had nothing to do with the killing of the gay guy.
Didn't seem to matter.
The Chicago man (which was my friend) was killed by the state of Texas on May the 19th last year. No evidence other then the testimony of two known fellons and liars cut his life short and deprived his Daughter of a Dad, his Mother of a Son, his Sister of a Brother and me of a Friend.
TDCJ # 999224
So no DNA could have stopped that.
And one more about DNA. What about Joy Gilchrist in Oklahoma? Be very afraid about incompetent Lab technicians.
And yes I have to agree that vicious animals are to be put down. Most off the time they are made vicious by their keepers or/and through neglect.
By killing citizens you create a whole lot of Hate and more victims. And by killing inocent inmates you create unspeakable pain.And if it is such a correct thing to do-Why not have the executions in public or even better on the TV "IIIIIIIIT'S EXECUTION TIME-right after these messages. I wonder who would advertise. So why kill the condemed in secret.
I always read quotes from the religious freaks about an eye for an eye. If they would read the Bible as they say they do they would find a passage that states That no man shall be punished on the word of just one man alone. Or something to that effect. They are hundreds in the death Camp on such evidence alone.
Let's hope for all our sake that the US can stop this barbaric treatment of humans and become the great Nation that has always been promised.

As for the german accent thing. My country has started two World Wars and Germany has become a most peace loving and tolerant nation through defeat and lesson learned.
My Grandfather was a School Headmaster. In 1936 he was asked to join the Nazi Party. He didn't. The following day he lost his job and cleaned the toilets in the same School and endured abuse by a sinister new young headmaster-but he never budged.
I am very grateful to the US to provide the food for my family during the blockade and I am far from being anti american. Just the way the nation is run by big business and Neo Conservatives is very worrying for many.
Phew.

Peace

Bernd

...maybe just the definition as per Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: com·plic·i·ty
Pronunciation: k&m-'pli-s(&-)tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act
2 : an instance of complicity

Can't find work so he wants to get high? Scoring and using dope is wrong. Picking up a gay man to rob him is wrong...killing him, wronger! Ask me, they all should be pushin' up daisies. Televise it...make it as big as the Superbowl...a sideshow...Hang 'em high...in the town square, have a lottery for the members of the firing squad, sell tickets...never dismiss the penchant for bloodlust. However we, as a state, seem to have some misplaced regard for a humane death with some sort of clinical dignity, or at least privacy, even for the perpetrators of the most barbaric of crimes. Unfortunately, there usually is no similar dignity for the victims, who are merely a grisly segment on the 6 O'clock news. Where is the humanity?

And, may I ask...Why the EU? Isn't that just a continent run by big business? What about all of Europe's progressivism? I get the feeling that with some of of the recent problems, more than a few citizens might enjoy and encourage a more conservative agenda.

The USSR fell apart...what happened? Hussein is gone, take a look at Iraq...be careful what you wish for...

jimHJJ(...it might come true...)

[markw]

Every right wing Government since the second World War has been supported by the U.S. Now that is shameful.Doe s that include yours? Somebody had to support "right wing" governments unless you wanted all of Europe to wind up under Communist rule. Is that what you wanted?

I see your beloved home country has an unemployment rate of somewhere around 20%. Is that good in your eyes? Oh, that's right. You now live in England.

[markw]

What can we expect next? Maltreatment of the Indians...Slavery? Next he'll bring up slavery which, as you pointed out, was preputated by Europe.

[Bernd]

Doe s that include yours? Somebody had to support "right wing" governments unless you wanted all of Europe to wind up under Communist rule. Is that what you wanted?

I see your beloved home country has an unemployment rate of somewhere around 20%. Is that good in your eyes? Oh, that's right. You now live in England.

Why do right wing dictatorships need the support of the US?
My homeland was divided and became re-unified in 1989. No precedent of that ever happend. So an under estimation of the task at hand and the realisation of 40 years of non investment is taking it's toll. This is not a slanging match. I am purely here in the UK as my wife does not want to leave her older parents alone, and I love this country as I love my own, but I would never fight for some politicians ideal or lies, or feel the need to invade and occupy another country, or salute a Flag. I apologise for that.
History will show that the foreign policy of the US since the second world war leaves a lot to be desired. And you can shout as much as you want - the US is treating it's citizens with contempt and the world in general as inferior. Wrong on both counts.
You have a great country which is strangled by Lies and Neo Conservatism.

Peace

Bernd

[JSE]

If I would follow your thought-" Why not execute all "Criminals" and have it done with". Can you imagine what you are left with. The Third Reich reincarnated. Friends spying on friends and citizens too scared to say what the believe in.

Peace

Bernd

That's not my thought and I never said that. That would be ridiculous. I do however think we are way to soft on criminals in general. My point is that when you play with fire, you sometimes get burned. Your friend associated and then became a criminal. What did he expect them to say after being arrested? I know you don't agee with this but, the system worked like it was supposed to. The criminals were the flawed part of the system. They lied and schemed to pin it in your friend. How is that the "systems" fault? No system is perfect but ours seems to work pretty well for the most part.

I am just sick and tired of people blaming the "system" instead of blaming the people who commit crimes. The system did not fail. Your friend's soul did. It is 100% his fault he is dead today. Some people just seem to want to always blame everyone else for their problems. It's never their fault. The system wronged him, the other 3 low life scum criminals wronged him, the "right wing" wronged him. Please, he wronged himself over a jones for some weed. That's pathetic. Again, no sympathy here. And, if you are intent on getting rid of the death penalty, you better get a better example of someone being wronged. This case will changed nothing.

JSE

[GMichael]

... Televise it...make it as big as the Superbowl...a sideshow...
jimHJJ(...it might come true...)


Will this be the new halftime show. The Stones (& heads) will roll!

Sorry, not the greatest thing to joke about, but it was calling me.

There's enough blame to go around to any country or any system. I have my complaints about our system. I feel that I was treated unfairly in the past. But can any country or system say that they make no mistakes? If so, let them be the first to throw stones.

As for JFK, we will most likely never know the truth. If it ever does come out, anyone who really cared will be gone.

[markw]

My homeland was divided and became re-unified in 1989. No precedent of that ever happend. You really don't think the US was responsible for that, do you? Boy, talk about hubris.

[Bernd]

I am not blaming the system for people committing crimes - they are aware of what they are doing when they do it. My point is that as long as the death penalty is in place, there is the likelihood that mistakes will be made and people will die as a result. If a mistake is made and someone is jailed in error - that can be rectified - they can be freed. Death, however, is irreversible and reading the true cases written about by several reputable authors, and having some first hand experience - those mistakes do happen. I agree that in most cases, we are way too soft on criminal behaviour but there are lost of wider issues that need to be addressed - punishment is the loss of freedom itself - why then the need for additional, cruel and inhuman behaviour (for instance, serving breakfast and lunch at bizarre times to disorientate people). Jail is not there to gratify the sadistic tendencies of those who run them - it is there to contain people who have broken the law and had their freedom removed. It is not up to the jailers to take revenge and it is perverse that anyone would want to see a fellow human suffer. Nor is it up to the state to kill people who haven't committed a crime that is punishable by the death penalty. One of my best friends comes from Texas and has decided to live in Germany to end his days as he cannot tolerate the neo-conservatism that prevails in the USA today. He is a 82, a respected concert pianist, author and journalist. He is a learned, well respected man who has gained the Bundesverdienstkreuz, (similar to a knighthood) for establishing and continuing cultural links between Germany and the US. He went back to the USA in 1982 and couldn't stand the climate that prevailed, so returned to Germany.

[Bernd]

You really don't think the US was responsible for that, do you? Boy, talk about hubris.

Don't be such a victim! I didn't say that the USA was responsible - I was stating the reason for the high levels of unemployment - reunification, which was a one time happening.

[Bernd]

Will this be the new halftime show. The Stones (& heads) will roll!

Sorry, not the greatest thing to joke about, but it was calling me.

There's enough blame to go around to any country or any system. I have my complaints about our system. I feel that I was treated unfairly in the past. But can any country or system say that they make no mistakes? If so, let them be the first to throw stones.

As for JFK, we will most likely never know the truth. If it ever does come out, anyone who really cared will be gone.

Hello GMichael and thank you for joining the discussion. I am not America bashing - this started as a discussion about the JFK assassination. Hope you can follow it! It now seems to have spread rather wider. The BOT has disappeared again! How are the snow drifts?

Bernd

[markw]

Don't be such a victim! I didn't say that the USA was responsible - I was stating the reason for the high levels of unemployment - reunification, which was a one time happening.If it weren't for the "evil" US governnment and it's involvment, that wall would still be there and much more of Europe would be behind it.

[GMichael]

Hello GMichael and thank you for joining the discussion. I am not America bashing - this started as a discussion about the JFK assassination. Hope you can follow it! It now seems to have spread rather wider. The BOT has disappeared again! How are the snow drifts?

Bernd


The BOT is making a comeback. Much warmer today. We got lucky. We were on the fringe and only got about 5-6 inches. No biggie.
I try to stay out of political discussions. I have enough stress at work.

[Bernd]

If it weren't for the "evil" US governnment and it's involvment, that wall would still be there and much more of Europe would be behind it.

If I remember correctly it was the peaceful march of the east german people night after night that gave way to the wall. You are fantasising about that one.You keep forgetting-I was there when the wall came down.
Why are you so aggresive. I make some points that are based on my opinion and experiences and you seem to feel the need to defend the great US without having experienced what I have experienced.
If you want an argument you will not get one from me as there are always two sides to the coin and I have no desire to convince you otherwise.
Enjoy your life

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

If I remember correctly it was the peaceful march of the east german people night after night that gave way to the wall. You are fantasising about that one.You keep forgetting-I was there when the wall came down.
Why are you so aggresive. I make some points that are based on my opinion and experiences and you seem to feel the need to defend the great US without having experienced what I have experienced.
If you want an argument you will not get one from me as there are always two sides to the coin and I have no desire to convince you otherwise.
Enjoy your life

Peace

BerndBoy, you are hubris presonified. I'll simplify the concept even more, and I'll try to use little words this time. If it was not for the US propping your deballed country up all those post war years and keeping that bear to the east off your sorry, anti-semitic asses, you would all be communist.

So, while it may have been that last walk in the night that signified the end of that era, it was the US that did all the work building up your country and protecting you for the years preceeding that.

Now, I know this sticks in your anti-American craw but, like it ot not, it's the truth and all your posturing won't change history.

[Bernd]

The BOT is making a comeback. Much warmer today. We got lucky. We were on the fringe and only got about 5-6 inches. No biggie.
I try to stay out of political discussions. I have enough stress at work.

I am glad you got off lightly. It's warmer here, too. I don't like political discussions either, but I think I have been damaged genetically to stand up for fairness and the right of the individual. I hate being dictated and lied too by the people who should serve us.

Bernd

[kexodusc]

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

[GMichael]

I am glad you got off lightly. It's warmer here, too. I don't like political discussions either, but I think I have been damaged genetically to stand up for fairness and the right of the individual. I hate being dictated and lied too by the people who should serve us.

Bernd

I think all governments have their problems. I would never trust any politician from any country. (or heads of companies while you're at it)
The US seems to get an unusual amount of attention for it's short comings. And when we do good it gets downplayed. After a while we get a persecution complex.

[GMichael]

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

It's a hard line to walk, for sure.
Death = bad
Seems simple. But then add:
Person rapes & kills children = bad
So? raping & killing children = death?
Geez A person could go crazy

Look at that woman who drowed her 3 children. They say she's crazy (duh.. what was their first clue?) Does that mean she's ok to the rest of the world? Should she be killed?

[Bernd]

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

Well put and no he doesn't deserve a second life. Just lose his freedom. None of us are that pure to have the right to take a life-None.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

I think all governments have their problems. I would never trust any politician from any country. (or heads of companies while you're at it)
The US seems to get an unusual amount of attention for it's short comings. And when we do good it gets downplayed. After a while we get a persecution complex.

Like I said I am (and many europeans) very grateful for the effort of the US during the Blockade and the losses sustained for bringing Adolf to book. I think the attention comes from the lies that are exposed in recent history and the idea of a World Police man.
Over here we have as many corrupt politicians as anywhere else, but somehow I feel more comfortable with Blair or Merkel then with Bush & co.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

...you seem to be a reasonbly intelligent person...let me ask this...Re: books that document these "mistakes"...What book do you think would sell better? One that uses editorializing, ponticifating and finger pointing in an effort to exploit the tragedies that sometimes happen as a result of an imperfect justice system or one that simply documents all the times they (police/prosecutors, the justice system in general) get it right. Which one actually represents the bigger representative number?

Much more emotion (and therfore money) involved in the former, after all who wants to read an almanac with nothing more than facts and figures. Sad to say, history books don't fare well on the best seller lists.

And please don't mix POWs in with a description of the general prison population...it seems many of our convicts have a better life while visiting the old Graybar than they do on the outside...and I doubt they have a problem with their food service. Oh, yeah...there was that warden who served nothing but bologna sandwiches; but I know pepole who just eat nothing but bologna sandwiches, or PB&J, or tuna salad...or horrors, nothing but Big Macs...Now that should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

jimHJJ(...three-squares, and there's TV, and the gym, and the library...the only chain-gangs I've seen have been picking up litter on highway medians, no rock piles, probably no chains, just Bubba on a horse, with a 12ga....and besides it ain't supposed to be Club Med...)

[Bernd]

...you seem to be a reasonbly intelligent person...let me ask this...Re: books that document these "mistakes"...What book do you think would sell better? One that uses editorializing, ponticifating and finger pointing in an effort to exploit the tragedies that sometimes happen as a result of an imperfect justice system or one that simply documents all the times they (police/prosecutors, the justice system in general) get it right. Which one actually represents the bigger representative number?

Much more emotion (and therfore money) involved in the former, after all who wants to read an almanac with nothing more than facts and figures. Sad to say, history books don't fare well on the best seller lists.

And please don't mix POWs in with a description of the general prison population...it seems many of our convicts have a better life while visiting the old Graybar than they do on the outside...and I doubt they have a problem with their food service. Oh, yeah...there was that warden who served nothing but bologna sandwiches; but I know pepole who just eat nothing but bologna sandwiches, or PB&J, or tuna salad...or horrors, nothing but Big Macs...Now that should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

jimHJJ(...three-squares, and there's TV, and the gym, and the library...the only chain-gangs I've seen have been picking up litter on highway medians, no rock piles, probably no chains, just Bubba on a horse, with a 12ga....and besides it ain't supposed to be Club Med...)

Reasonbly Intelligent????
I am offended now.
No, but seriously the sensational acounts always sell better. I just feel sad that a government can kill it's people in the name of Justice. Justice and punishment are two different things in my mind. And as a deterent it aint working. So why continue with it?
Good to converse with you. have you escaped the big white?

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

The Plan!
You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin
Williams to come up with the perfect
plan. What we need now is for our
UN Ambassador to stand up and
repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to
argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
but I have not heard of a plan for
peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their
affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega,
Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good ole boys', we will never
"interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want
us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking
through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.
We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be
gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are.
They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days
unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be
allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide
here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab
drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If
they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise.
This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require
a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have
to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go
somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling
up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will
not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement
or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them are stolen or given
to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need
the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a
good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can
call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is
ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want
a piece of me?' "


I love this, by golly Robin I think you've got it!!!!!!!!

[Resident Loser]

Justice and punishment are two different things in my mind. And as a deterent it aint working. So why continue with it?
Good to converse with you. have you escaped the big white? Peace

Bernd

As it stands, the operative opinion seems to be, let the punishment fit the crime...when the majority of American public decides otherwise, their elected officials will be pressured to change things...

I don't know, about the deterent factor...crime stats depend on interpretation in many cases...numbers can be fudged and statistics skewed depending on the point one is trying to support...

Nope, winter has returned...big time...approx. 18 inches or so in my neck of the woods...I love it! Central Park got about two feet of the stuff...I know it's an audio forum, but I love the silence afforded by a thick blanket of snow. The aftermath is the usual cabaret...especially for those with SUVs who think they are invincible or the folks who think the gas pedal can power them out of anything!

My Jeep is in the garage, the drifts in my driveway have to be attended to...then engage 4LOW at a crawl and I hope to be be mobile sometime before Friday...'til then it's mass-transit...

jimHJJ(...finally a real chance to test my new tires...)

[Resident Loser]

The Plan!!!!!

jimHJJ(...where do I sign?...LOL-PIMP funny...)

[JSE]

jimHJJ(...where do I sign?...LOL-PIMP funny...)


I'll sign it!

Can you imagine the names the "world" would call us if we actually enacted it? The hatred for America would be louder than ever. :confused:

JSE

[trollgirl]

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...

So who did whack JFK? I have my suspicions...

JFK and his Attorney General brother were putting it hard to organized crime IIRC.

JFK refused to support the Bush-instigated Bay of Pigs invasion. Yes, that's Dubya's daddy - the Cubans went there in two ships, the Barbara (BHWB's wife) and the Zapata (GHWB's oil company).

JFK refused to expand the US role in Vietnam - no bigger war, no bigger war profits.

A VERY short time before he went to Dallas, JFK made a speech at an Ivy League school, in which he announced that he was going to blow the lid off an unnamed conspiracy.

JFK was whacked in Dallas, LBJ's turf, and John Connaly, an old political rival of LBJ, almost got whached too. As one writer said, it was not the first time that LBJ's political career was furtherd by the untimely death of a rival. He was found just after the shooting, hunkered down in his limo with some pillows.

Some assassination researchers (a profession with a VERY high mortality) have stated that certain goings-on in Dallas in the days preceding the assassination, looked very much like a typical CIA op. Remember who headed the CIA at that time?

Some names stand out, but all in all, I think the Military-Industrial Complex had him taken out, so that he could be replaced with a man who would open the flood gates to death, and obscene profits. You already know the rest...

Laz

[markw]

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...I guess you can count on something like that happening when some eurotrash takes what would otherwise be an interesting discussion and tries to twist it into America bashing. ...and then tries to deny it.

[jamison]

whats funny is if you ask an eighteen to twenty four year old female about the kennedy assasination and they will ask: Ted Kennedy got shot ? LIke Really?

[Bernd]

As it stands, the operative opinion seems to be, let the punishment fit the crime...when the majority of American public decides otherwise, their elected officials will be pressured to change things...

I don't know, about the deterent factor...crime stats depend on interpretation in many cases...numbers can be fudged and statistics skewed depending on the point one is trying to support...

Nope, winter has returned...big time...approx. 18 inches or so in my neck of the woods...I love it! Central Park got about two feet of the stuff...I know it's an audio forum, but I love the silence afforded by a thick blanket of snow. The aftermath is the usual cabaret...especially for those with SUVs who think they are invincible or the folks who think the gas pedal can power them out of anything!

My Jeep is in the garage, the drifts in my driveway have to be attended to...then engage 4LOW at a crawl and I hope to be be mobile sometime before Friday...'til then it's mass-transit...

jimHJJ(...finally a real chance to test my new tires...)

Well keep warm and stay safe. I agree that a blanket of snow brings some magic.

Bernd

[Bernd]

Boy, you are hubris presonified. I'll simplify the concept even more, and I'll try to use little words this time. If it was not for the US propping your deballed country up all those post war years and keeping that bear to the east off your sorry, anti-semitic asses, you would all be communist.

So, while it may have been that last walk in the night that signified the end of that era, it was the US that did all the work building up your country and protecting you for the years preceeding that.

Now, I know this sticks in your anti-American craw but, like it ot not, it's the truth and all your posturing won't change history.

I will write this very slow as I don't think you read very fast. When did I deny that the US helped West-Germany? That is exactly what a decent victorious country should do and help to create a stable Europe.
I am not an anti semite neither is anyone I know.How can I be blamed for what a minority in my country did 60 years ago? I think we all have done some despicable acts towards our fellow man-The US is not exempt from this. What did the US do for East-Germany?
You want me to believe that it took the mighty US 28 years to bring the wall down. LOL.
As for Europe "dealing" with Iraq-what was to deal with. No WMD (maybe they are hidden on the moon),no evidence of AL-Queda just-surprise surprise OIL.
If regime change was or is so desireable why not announce that before you invade and why leave Zimbabwe,North Korea,China,Cuba etc. alone.Do you agree with their way of Government or could it be that they have no OIL.
As for you calling me Eurotrash you have your opinion of me, I will live with it, and I think very highly of you too.
America is a beautiful country, but it is spoilt by people like you and your attitude.
And since this is an Audioforum I leave you with a little recommendation to listen to "Lou Reed's-New York". Here is a fellow american talking about things I wouldn't dream to bring to a discussion table. Maybe you'll listen to him.

Bernd

[Bernd]

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...

So who did whack JFK? I have my suspicions...

JFK and his Attorney General brother were putting it hard to organized crime IIRC.

JFK refused to support the Bush-instigated Bay of Pigs invasion. Yes, that's Dubya's daddy - the Cubans went there in two ships, the Barbara (BHWB's wife) and the Zapata (GHWB's oil company).

JFK refused to expand the US role in Vietnam - no bigger war, no bigger war profits.

A VERY short time before he went to Dallas, JFK made a speech at an Ivy League school, in which he announced that he was going to blow the lid off an unnamed conspiracy.

JFK was whacked in Dallas, LBJ's turf, and John Connaly, an old political rival of LBJ, almost got whached too. As one writer said, it was not the first time that LBJ's political career was furtherd by the untimely death of a rival. He was found just after the shooting, hunkered down in his limo with some pillows.

Some assassination researchers (a profession with a VERY high mortality) have stated that certain goings-on in Dallas in the days preceding the assassination, looked very much like a typical CIA op. Remember who headed the CIA at that time?

Some names stand out, but all in all, I think the Military-Industrial Complex had him taken out, so that he could be replaced with a man who would open the flood gates to death, and obscene profits. You already know the rest...

Laz

Hi Laz,

Good of you to bring it back on track. But this is how conversations develop. I find it amazing that the good citizens of the US just swallow the official explanations of the JFK killing.There should have been an outcry. The house select committe report is so full of holes and inconcistencies that it reads like fiction. They talk about JFK's brain being fixed in Formaldehyde. It is well documented that there was hardly any brain matter left in the Presidents head.Just take a look at the Zapruda film and see they spray of Brain matter. So if they talk about a fixed brain-whose are they talking about?
That alone is doubt enough to ask more questions.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

The Plan!
You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin
Williams to come up with the perfect
plan. What we need now is for our
UN Ambassador to stand up and
repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to
argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
but I have not heard of a plan for
peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their
affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega,
Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good ole boys', we will never
"interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want
us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking
through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.
We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be
gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are.
They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days
unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be
allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide
here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab
drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If
they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise.
This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require
a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have
to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go
somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling
up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will
not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement
or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them are stolen or given
to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need
the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a
good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can
call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is
ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want
a piece of me?' "


I love this, by golly Robin I think you've got it!!!!!!!!

Ha,Ha,Ha,-Problem solved US Style.

Unfortunatly we do not have the luxury to live in a "Splendid Isolation-We don't need no-one" Place. This is our planet given to us not stamped,"Made in USA" or some other place. So we need to share it's people,resources and help your fellow man. Not ride roughshot over people who believe something different. On top of that, it's our home-and it's the only one we've got. Moving is not an option.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

Ha,Ha,Ha,-Problem solved US Style.

Unfortunatly we do not have the luxury to live in a "Splendid Isolation-We don't need no-one" Place. This is our planet given to us not stamped,"Made in USA" or some other place. So we need to share it's people,resources and help your fellow man. Not ride roughshot over people who believe something different. On top of that, it's our home-and it's the only one we've got. Moving is not an option.

Peace

Bernd

...George Washington, who in his farewell said, "...avoid foreign entanglements..."

"We the people..." didn't listen, pity I think...

"We the people..." could easily be self-sufficient, drop our unemployment rate, etc. and tell the rest od the world to PO...

"We the people..." should have been on that road all along, instead "We the people..." became fat , dumb and happy on the road to complacency.

"We the people..." only have ourselves to blame...but I'll be d@mned if, after all we have done in our misguided attempt to make this stinkin' planet a better place, we will now become the whipping boy for a world frustrated with itself; one that holds us responsible for it's history and shortcomings...

jimHJJ(...I recall a Randy Newman song..."Political Science"...)

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

[Bernd]

That of course is one point of view. Just a bit out of date in my mind, as Washington is long gone. But I know what you mean.When the wall came down there was lots of cheering but when the bill came in that changed to all sorts of unpleasentness. Is just the price you have to pay for sharing this world.
On a very small level I could be, if I wanted to be self contained, don't think I am ready for the Isolation as yet.

Well top of the morning to you

Bernd

[markw]

I will write this very slow as I don't think you read very fast. When did I deny that the US helped West-Germany?Yet, you imply in more than one post that the US had no hand in the wall coming down. All the walking you guys did had nothing to do with it. Wanna know the real reasons? Here's a hint... take a course in world economics.



That is exactly what a decent victorious country should do and help to create a stable Europe...and yet you eurotrash keep on bashing those who pulled your fat out of the fire.




I am not an anti Semite neither is anyone I know.How can I be blamed for what a minority in my country did 60 years ago?Well, you blame Amercia for all the world's ills. Why shouldn't we blame you?

Actually, if you guys didn't try to exterminate the Jews, there would never have been a need to create a separate Jewish state. So, I guess you guys ARE responsible for a lot of the current mess.



I think we all have done some despicable acts towards our fellow man-The US is not exempt from this. Well, we never started two world wars or set out to annihilate an entire race. But, on the whole we've done more good for the world than anyone else ...and less harm. Something you tend to overlook in your bashing.




What did the US do for East-Germany?And, what did West Germany do for East Germany, but, you expected us to walk in with guns blazing? Isn't that what you are railing against us for? Again, a course or two in world economics might prove enlightening. .. .but, then again, maybe not.




You want me to believe that it took the mighty US 28 years to bring the wall down. LOL. Your ignorance of the way the world works is astounding. Here's the real deal, heinz. We beat the communists. Not you. We, the US. You guys were just along for the ride. When they lost the war, they lost their hold on the wall, Then all you pansies could tear it down, jump up and down like the monkeys in 2001 and start trying to rebuild your country.




As for Europe "dealing" with Iraq-what was to deal with. No WMD (maybe they are hidden on the moon),no evidence of AL-Queda just-surprise surprise OIL.Actually, I thought I said Iran. Weren't you guys selling hi-tech stuff to them? Well, it may come back in missiles. You're a lot closer than we are.




If regime change was or is so desireable why not announce that before you invade and why leave Zimbabwe,North Korea,China,Cuba etc. alone.Do you agree with their way of Government or could it be that they have no OIL./ Well, funny you should mention that. It seems the UN is begging for us to go in there to save African asses. Actually, they would accept any help. Any Germans volunteering? Bueller... anyone?



As for you calling me Eurotrash you have your opinion of me, I will live with it, and I think very highly of you too.AS the wise philosopher once said, "kiss my monkey.



America is a beautiful country, but it is spoilt by people like you and your attitude.[How" would you know? What did you ever do for ANY country. I was in the service and earned my fight to trounce on pompus, ungrateful, ignorant, eurotrash punks like you who don't know or care who really saved their asses. ...and is still doing it.

Does the Acronym "NATO" mean anything to you?



And since this is an Audioforum I leave you with a little recommendation to listen to "Lou Reed's-New York". Here is a fellow american talking about things I wouldn't dream to bring to a discussion table. Maybe you'll listen to him.Ah yes, another insulated "Artiste" who took all he could from this country and never sacrificed a thing, except to pay as little tax as possible. Too bad he, like most artists, live in an insulated world.

[noddin0ff]

A lot of good stuff, and then...

Ah yes, another insulated "Artiste" who took all he could from this country and never sacrificed a thing, except to pay as little tax as possible. Too bad he, like most artists, live in an insulated world.

Hey! I like Lou Reed and particularly 'New York'. Nothing wrong with an artist taking a jab at hypocrisy. The purpose of a free and volunteer militia is to provide the citizenship the freedom to live in an insulated world. That’s why the US is a great nation.

[GMichael]

Walks back in, sees dishes flying around the room crashing everywhere, "I uh.. nevermind." Ducks and rolls out the door.

[markw]

Hey! I like Lou Reed and particularly 'New York'. Nothing wrong with an artist taking a jab at hypocrisy. The purpose of a free and volunteer militia is to provide the citizenship the freedom to live in an insulated world. That’s why the US is a great nation.I don't have a problem with Lou Reed either but artists, on the whole, are the biggest hypocrites on the planet*. Remember, this is a guy whose first songs sang the praises of heroin and hookers. While this is fine entertainment, I find his views somewhat incompatible with my views on society.

*Well, I'll make an exception for Ted Nugent. ;)

[noddin0ff]

I don't have a problem with Lou Reed either but artists, on the whole, are the biggest hypocrites on the planet*. Remember, this is a guy whose first songs sang the praises of heroin and hookers. While this is fine entertainment, I find his views somewhat incompatible with my views on society.

*Well, I'll make an exception for Ted Nugent. ;)

Yah, but I draw a big distintion between domestic hypocrites and them there foreign ones. And, I gotta admire the moral principles of a rocker who made a bid to by Muzak so he could destroy it! Heroin aside, I don't think Reed really glamorized drugs quite the same way that Nugent glamorized using women.

But back on topic...

John Hinkley Jr, single handedly just about killed Reagan and no one accused him of being part of a commie plot. He got off way more than 3 shots, and got a lot closer. If he knew how to aim... He was just a movie buff (Taxi Driver). I don't see why we need to invoke the CIA, Cuba, and Aliens for JFK's assasination. As to bin Laden, Eric Rudolph (domestic terrorist) evaded law enforcement for 5 years, he didn't have millions of dollars, wasn't in a foreign mountainous land full of gun toting natives who don't speak English (ok, I might have to retract the gun toting and non-english speaking statement)... and good Lord, he was confined to a small stretch of woods in N. Carolina. Do you really need a conspiracy to explain why Bin Laden might still be at large.

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

[Geoffcin]

Yet, you imply in more than one post that the US had no hand in the wall coming down. All the walking you guys did had nothing to do with it. Wanna know the real reasons? Here's a hint... take a course in world economics.


..and yet you eurotrash keep on bashing those who pulled your fat out of the fire.




Your making valid points, not need to call anyone names.

[JSE]

Walks back in room...............

Nugent Freaking RULES!!!!!!!!!


Leaves room.......

JSE

[trollgirl]

Hi Laz,

Good of you to bring it back on track. But this is how conversations develop. I find it amazing that the good citizens of the US just swallow the official explanations of the JFK killing.There should have been an outcry. The house select committe report is so full of holes and inconcistencies that it reads like fiction. They talk about JFK's brain being fixed in Formaldehyde. It is well documented that there was hardly any brain matter left in the Presidents head.Just take a look at the Zapruda film and see they spray of Brain matter. So if they talk about a fixed brain-whose are they talking about?
That alone is doubt enough to ask more questions.

Peace

Bernd

There are MANY odd things about the JFK hit. Here's one: have you EVER seen a photo of policeman Tippit?? Probably not, fact is,. he looked a lot like the Prez. When his body arrived at the same hospital, there seem to have been some mix-ups which produced the inexplicable autopsy reports. He may even be buried in JFK's grave.

Yes stupid Americans, too many of them, still trust what they are told by the government. Radicals have been telling us for 40 years or so to WAKE UP, but we still sleep. Now, having been conditioned to believe what we are told, we swallow the lies about 09/11/2001 with not a doubt in our minds. Most of us can no longer see what we are looking at. Case in point: the WTC collapses. I have seen enough controlled demolitions - live and on video - to know what to look for. Those towers were taken out by planted explosives. If you watch the collapse on slo-mo, you can easily see the cutting charges going off.

Now I'm the one going off topic...[blush].

Laz

[noddin0ff]

And you know what they put in our drinking water!? Fluoride! And, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, ...children's ice cream. A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice.

And don't get me started on mind control...

[Bernd]

There are MANY odd things about the JFK hit. Here's one: have you EVER seen a photo of policeman Tippit?? Probably not, fact is,. he looked a lot like the Prez. When his body arrived at the same hospital, there seem to have been some mix-ups which produced the inexplicable autopsy reports. He may even be buried in JFK's grave.

Yes stupid Americans, too many of them, still trust what they are told by the government. Radicals have been telling us for 40 years or so to WAKE UP, but we still sleep. Now, having been conditioned to believe what we are told, we swallow the lies about 09/11/2001 with not a doubt in our minds. Most of us can no longer see what we are looking at. Case in point: the WTC collapses. I have seen enough controlled demolitions - live and on video - to know what to look for. Those towers were taken out by planted explosives. If you watch the collapse on slo-mo, you can easily see the cutting charges going off.

Now I'm the one going off topic...[blush].

Laz

Yes I have seen Officer Tippits picture. I also think that Tom Tilson has a valid point with the record of the number plate from the car that sped away and nobody was interested in it.
I didn't want to mention 9/11 but yes I have seen the Twin towers collapse and building 5 also. I also heard the public anouncement that the air was clean to breathe. All the sniffer dogs used are dead.
As for going off topic. What about the Space Shuttle that blew up. A trial run for taking Nuclear waste into space. If that one had "the" cargo on board-well you know.
It is very worrying.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Yet, you imply in more than one post that the US had no hand in the wall coming down. All the walking you guys did had nothing to do with it. Wanna know the real reasons? Here's a hint... take a course in world economics.


..and yet you eurotrash keep on bashing those who pulled your fat out of the fire.



Well, you blame Amercia for all the world's ills. Why shouldn't we blame you?

Actually, if you guys didn't try to exterminate the Jews, there would never have been a need to create a separate Jewish state. So, I guess you guys ARE responsible for a lot of the current mess.


Well, we never started two world wars or set out to annihilate an entire race. But, on the whole we've done more good for the world than anyone else ...and less harm. Something you tend to overlook in your bashing.



And, what did West Germany do for East Germany, but, you expected us to walk in with guns blazing? Isn't that what you are railing against us for? Again, a course or two in world economics might prove enlightening. .. .but, then again, maybe not.



Your ignorance of the way the world works is astounding. Here's the real deal, heinz. We beat the communists. Not you. We, the US. You guys were just along for the ride. When they lost the war, they lost their hold on the wall, Then all you pansies could tear it down, jump up and down like the monkeys in 2001 and start trying to rebuild your country.



Actually, I thought I said Iran. Weren't you guys selling hi-tech stuff to them? Well, it may come back in missiles. You're a lot closer than we are.



/ Well, funny you should mention that. It seems the UN is begging for us to go in there to save African asses. Actually, they would accept any help. Any Germans volunteering? Bueller... anyone?


AS the wise philosopher once said, "kiss my monkey.


How" would you know? What did you ever do for ANY country. I was in the service and earned my fight to trounce on pompus, ungrateful, ignorant, eurotrash punks like you who don't know or care who really saved their asses. ...and is still doing it.

Does the Acronym "NATO" mean anything to you?


Ah yes, another insulated "Artiste" who took all he could from this country and never sacrificed a thing, except to pay as little tax as possible. Too bad he, like most artists, live in an insulated world.

Look, your John Wayne attitude solves nothing, but that's the american way,I guess.
Native American genocide rings a bell?
You want me to believe that Ronald Reagan (LOL) stopped the USSR. Man oh man you are so ignorant. How about giving some kudos to Gorbatchev. He knew the Communist model is not workable not through some gun waving wild west nonsense.
As for east germany the east german government surpressed its people yet all top brass lived in the American sector in West-Berlin lead through at Check Point Charlie on your watch. Well done.All well documented and public information.
And one more, you stood by and watched the wall been put up.That was really helpful. And this happened in August 1961, but then you knew that,didn't you. As for Heinz that isn't my name. Is that the best you can do?
And as for being in the service-I am not impressed by goons in Uniform.How come the military is always equated with good.Far from it. True, I have first hand accounts of heroic acts being done by people in uniform, but those guys would have performed those acts anyway-Uniform or no Uniform- it's in you or it's not. But there are many more awful,cruel and sadistic acts performed in the name of doing good. Put an uneducated bully(and they are plentiful) in a uniform and watch what happens. Anybody who want's to join an outfit where you could get shot at or even worse-get killed, has to have some sort of defect in it's make up.

I think it is you who needs to take a course in recent world history. Your comments are a typical example of somebody who has been brainwashed.I pitty you.During the recent Hurricane disaster, two german Hospital Planes, where in the air within hours and on their way to help the american people, Both were turned back and the reason-"Thanks, but we have it all under controll." Well, we saw how it was all under controll and the world was left in no doubt how much value the US Government places on the life of it's citizens.
As for doing good for the world-which country has ever used Nuclear weapons? Any ideas?
Ask the people of Japan how much good the US has done. People there suffering to this day from the after effects.But then you knew that too.

The US has a duty to give back to the world and here is why. The US are the biggest poluter of the planet and the largest user of resources per head.

I used to think you are just annoyingly arrogant but it seems you're just thick.

Peace

Bernd

[bobsticks]

Bernd,
Over the last couple of months i've read many of your posts and I believe you to be a man of peace and conviction. I can imagine how upsetting it is to have the characteristics of long dead countrymen imparted unto you. That, Bernd, is a two-way street. When you talk about Americans or The American Way please remember that there are 300 million non-homogeneous citizens in this country. We are not all lemmings diving into a sea of propaganda and moreover most of us have never been in a position to oppress anybody
I'm sorry about your friend. While there is a compelling argument to be made about his decision-making there are undoubtedly other factors at play, most notably Federal Hate Crimes Legislation and Mandatory Minimum Sentencing. Once enacted, these effectively tied the hands of judges in many, many cases--non-violent possession of a certain quantity of drugs in some states can get you life with no parole while the average rapist gets 5-7 years...and how can it be argued that all premeditated murders don't involve hate?
It's important to note, however, that Death Sentence Guidelines are decided upon by state legislatures and that the Executive Branch has little say with the exception of case-by-case amnesty over anything. Often the relationship between Federal and State goverments is quite adversarial.
It does beg the question, what type of society allows for this? I think to understand the frustrations of most Americans requires an immersion into day-to-day life here...just as it would be a prerequisite for expert commentary on your culture. Note that there are over 270 MILLION HANDGUNS in our country ( gun control?--nice thought but a day late and several dollars and lives short ). It is also telling that for several weeks an album entitled "Get Rich or Die Tryin'" topped the charts here. While we protect the Rights of Free Speech and Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness there seems to be an unwritten Right to be Petulant that too many engage with frightening gusto.
JSE's reaction is a prime example of Moderate angst in a sytem that has forgotten its core. As teen pregnancy/illegitemacy, illiteracy, and crime spiral upwards everyone claims victimization. This is a country where over fifty percent of the children's main educational and parental influence is derived from a pop culture that is apathetic at best.
To put the gun problem in historical perpective, the next time you read an article about pandemic gun violence in this country try inserting the words "The Inquisition" in place "gun violence" and I suspect that the numbers bare that out. It really is that bad. It is important to be aware that of the 22,000+ gun deaths every year in this country a miniscule percent are ever even considered for the Death Penalty. Virtually all involve multiple or egregious crimes against humanity and I suspect your friend was caught in the bureaucratic quag of 1)conspiratorial lies, and 2) Hate Crime Legislation.
When you look at laying blame for the country's woes you have to look past the face man, this one and his predecesors. Our two party system has become so polarized as to constitute a text book example of the Unstoppable Force meeting the Immovable Object. The Democrats have become, right or wrong ,synonymous with tax and spend while pandering to the "disenfranchised". Their sibling organization, the ACLU, at one time pioneered the equality of ALL people, while now spending more time trying to get government funding for a guy to offend a huge percentage of the population by photographing a crucifix in urine. The Republicans, of course, have become the jackal-like lackeys of the military/industrial complex. Again right or wrong. The only universal is that centrists on both sides of the aisle see the representation of their true constituents endangered by pressures from the radical extremes.
What is one to do then? Well, many of us act locally. We lead youth groups, we join neighborhood watch groups and we VOTE (although often for the lesser of two evils).We try and care about our fellow human beings in a quantitative way. And we engage in hopefully meaningful conversation. I support Trollgirl's right to denounce her government 100% but would respectfully remind her that in alot of countries she would probably not be with us any longer for having been a woman and done so.
Wow. This turned into a real monster over a morning cup of coffee. Sorry about the rant and recitation...but not really. We're not all John Wayne types, Bernd, or jackasses or imperialists or infedels or whatever.
Thanks for sharing your love of music with me.
Mark

[bobsticks]

Does JOEBIALEK get extra-credit in GMichael's troll class? Look what this thing started!

[Bernd]

Bernd,
Over the last couple of months i've read many of your posts and I believe you to be a man of peace and conviction. I can imagine how upsetting it is to have the characteristics of long dead countrymen imparted unto you. That, Bernd, is a two-way street. When you talk about Americans or The American Way please remember that there are 300 million non-homogeneous citizens in this country. We are not all lemmings diving into a sea of propaganda and moreover most of us have never been in a position to oppress anybody
I'm sorry about your friend. While there is a compelling argument to be made about his decision-making there are undoubtedly other factors at play, most notably Federal Hate Crimes Legislation and Mandatory Minimum Sentencing. Once enacted, these effectively tied the hands of judges in many, many cases--non-violent possession of a certain quantity of drugs in some states can get you life with no parole while the average rapist gets 5-7 years...and how can it be argued that all premeditated murders don't involve hate?
It's important to note, however, that Death Sentence Guidelines are decided upon by state legislatures and that the Executive Branch has little say with the exception of case-by-case amnesty over anything. Often the relationship between Federal and State goverments is quite adversarial.
It does beg the question, what type of society allows for this? I think to understand the frustrations of most Americans requires an immersion into day-to-day life here...just as it would be a prerequisite for expert commentary on your culture. Note that there are over 270 MILLION HANDGUNS in our country ( gun control?--nice thought but a day late and several dollars and lives short ). It is also telling that for several weeks an album entitled "Get Rich or Die Tryin'" topped the charts here. While we protect the Rights of Free Speech and Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness there seems to be an unwritten Right to be Petulant that too many engage with frightening gusto.
JSE's reaction is a prime example of Moderate angst in a sytem that has forgotten its core. As teen pregnancy/illegitemacy, illiteracy, and crime spiral upwards everyone claims victimization. This is a country where over fifty percent of the children's main educational and parental influence is derived from a pop culture that is apathetic at best.
To put the gun problem in historical perpective, the next time you read an article about pandemic gun violence in this country try inserting the words "The Inquisition" in place "gun violence" and I suspect that the numbers bare that out. It really is that bad. It is important to be aware that of the 22,000+ gun deaths every year in this country a miniscule percent are ever even considered for the Death Penalty. Virtually all involve multiple or egregious crimes against humanity and I suspect your friend was caught in the bureaucratic quag of 1)conspiratorial lies, and 2) Hate Crime Legislation.
When you look at laying blame for the country's woes you have to look past the face man, this one and his predecesors. Our two party system has become so polarized as to constitute a text book example of the Unstoppable Force meeting the Immovable Object. The Democrats have become, right or wrong ,synonymous with tax and spend while pandering to the "disenfranchised". Their sibling organization, the ACLU, at one time pioneered the equality of ALL people, while now spending more time trying to get government funding for a guy to offend a huge percentage of the population by photographing a crucifix in urine. The Republicans, of course, have become the jackal-like lackeys of the military/industrial complex. Again right or wrong. The only universal is that centrists on both sides of the aisle see the representation of their true constituents endangered by pressures from the radical extremes.
What is one to do then? Well, many of us act locally. We lead youth groups, we join neighborhood watch groups and we VOTE (although often for the lesser of two evils).We try and care about our fellow human beings in a quantitative way. And we engage in hopefully meaningful conversation. I support Trollgirl's right to denounce her government 100% but would respectfully remind her that in alot of countries she would probably not be with us any longer for having been a woman and done so.
Wow. This turned into a real monster over a morning cup of coffee. Sorry about the rant and recitation...but not really. We're not all John Wayne types, Bernd, or jackasses or imperialists or infedels or whatever.
Thanks for sharing your love of music with me.
Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you for that. I am well aware that the majority of american people are decent and peaceloving. I have visited many times and the last in 2004 to attend the Vote for Change tour in Philadelphia.
I just get upset when the propaganda is so far removed from the truth and people who bought into it shout abusive language.
I have many american friends especially Paul Moor (who I mentioned before) who lives now in Berlin and is to my mind one of the greatest men alive.
In 1983 I travelled for 10 months through your beautiful country and managed to see all the states apart from Alaska, something I will complete one day.
I am humbled that you have taken the time to put your thoughts onto the page. It has touched me. Thank you.

The power of music gives you wings

Bernd

[Bernd]

Does JOEBIALEK get extra-credit in GMichael's troll class? Look what this thing started!

I think he should go top of the class.

Bernd

[markw]

Look, your John Wayne attitude solves nothing, but that's the american way,I guess.
Native American genocide rings a bell?And, where did those original Americans come from? Hint.. they are not indigenous to this country.



You want me to believe that Ronald Reagan (LOL) stopped the USSR. Man oh man you are so ignorant. How about giving some kudos to Gorbatchev. He knew the Communist model is not workable not through some gun waving wild west nonsense.[No. All the presidents since WWII contributed to that. Gorbachov was only the first Russian to admit that their economy tanked. You still don't see why, do you? Pity...



As for east germany the east german government surpressed its people yet all top brass lived in the American sector in West-Berlin lead through at Check Point Charlie on your watch. Well done.All well documented and public information.And? Your point is? As long as the as the correct papers we couldn't stop them. Remember, we're the good guys.




And one more, you stood by and watched the wall been put up.That was really helpful. And this happened in August 1961, but then you knew that,didn't you.That was an greement made between Russia and the US after WWII. They controlled that sector. Again, you want John Wayne to come in and free the East Germans? Why couldn't you? You have al the answers and seem to blame us for the consequences your country suffered after losing the two world wars it started in less than 40 years.



As for Heinz that isn't my name. Is that the best you can do?As per Goeff's requsst, I'll withdraw that. The Eurotrash is still in the air though.




And as for being in the service-I am not impressed by goons in Uniform.How come the military is always equated with good.Far from it. True, I have first hand accounts of heroic acts being done by people in uniform, but those guys would have performed those acts anyway-Uniform or no Uniform- it's in you or it's not. But there are many more awful,cruel and sadistic acts performed in the name of doing good. Put an uneducated bully(and they are plentiful) in a uniform and watch what happens. Anybody who want's to join an outfit where you could get shot at or even worse-get killed, has to have some sort of defect in it's make up.Ah, I see... Veddy intelesting...It's perfectly all right for you to expect, no, demand, that Americans come over and risk their lives to make it all good for you, but all you want to do is sit back and criticize. Yep, the eurotrash comment stands.



I think it is you who needs to take a course in recent world history. Your comments are a typical example of somebody who has been brainwashed.I pitty you.No. Where do you think the world would be without us. Hint.. think East Germany.


During the recent Hurricane disaster, two german Hospital Planes,where in the air within hours and on their way to help the american people, Yeah, we rahank you for your meager contribution. The logistics involved in loading ans sending two airplanes is compare to dealing with 30,000 square miles of flooded land.


Get yer priorities straight Both were turned back and the reason-"Thanks, but we have it all under controll."Get your realities straight. Those two token airplanes weren't a drop in the bucket for all the problems involved in trucking all the goods to where they could do the most good. Remember, we airdropped food to your grandparents because we couldn't land anywhere near where we could do any good.


Well, we saw how it was all under controll and the world was left in no doubt how much value the US Government places on the life of it's citizens.And, in case you don't know it, there were local and state politicians marking their own turf in the way. Had the Feds overruled them, the problems would have been minimized but it's too late for that. ..but laws preclude that ...for now.


As for doing good for the world-which country has ever used Nuclear weapons? Any ideas? Ask the people of Japan how much good the US has done. People there suffering to this day from the after effects.But then you knew that too.Ohhh.. I was wondering when you would bring that up. And, how many countries besides Japan pulled off a sneak attack of that magnatude on a military base during peace time. Also, those two bombs saved more lives on both sides that he inevitable invasion of Japan would have cost. Period.

... and don't kid yourself, kid. You guys were working on nuclear weapons, too. The heavy water experiments uncovered after the war proved that. It's only our superior science and industry (and a bunch of really smart Jews) that allowed us to attain that goal before you. In spite of all your peaceful posturing, it almost sounds like you're sorry you didn't.



The US has a duty to give back to the world and here is why. The US are the biggest poluter of the planet and the largest user of resources per head.And, we're also the biggest prodiucer in the world and export more in foreign aid, both goods and money, than anyone else. ..and when shiit hits the fan, who does the world come crying to to save them? Hint... it ain't germany.



I used to think you are just annoyingly arrogant but it seems you're just thick.And, I always thought you were simply ignorant and a bit proud but now I'm leaning towards totally anti-American and simply jealous of our countries accomplishments,

[JSE]

As for doing good for the world-which country has ever used Nuclear weapons? Any ideas?
Ask the people of Japan how much good the US has done. People there suffering to this day from the after effects.But then you knew that too.


Um, Pot........ meet Kettle. I think you two will get along fine.

JSE

[Bernd]

And, where did those original Americans come from? Hint.. they are not indigenous to this country.


No. All the presidents since WWII contributed to that. Gorbachov was only the first Russian to admit that their economy tanked. You still don't see why, do you? Pity...


And? Your point is? As long as the as the correct papers we couldn't stop them. Remember, we're the good guys.



That was an greement made between Russia and the US after WWII. They controlled that sector. Again, you want John Wayne to come in and free the East Germans? Why couldn't you? You have al the answers and seem to blame us for the consequences your country suffered after losing the two world wars it started in less than 40 years.


As per Goeff's requsst, I'll withdraw that. The Eurotrash is still in the air though.



Ah, I see... Veddy intelesting...It's perfectly all right for you to expect, no, demand, that Americans come over and risk their lives to make it all good for you, but all you want to do is sit back and criticize. Yep, the eurotrash comment stands.


No. Where do you think the world would be without us. Hint.. think East Germany.

Yeah, we rahank you for your meager contribution. The logistics involved in loading ans sending two airplanes is compare to dealing with 30,000 square miles of flooded land.

Get your realities straight. Those two token airplanes weren't a drop in the bucket for all the problems involved in trucking all the goods to where they could do the most good. Remember, we airdropped food to your grandparents because we couldn't land anywhere near where we could do any good.

And, in case you don't know it, there were local and state politicians marking their own turf in the way. Had the Feds overruled them, the problems would have been minimized but it's too late for that. ..but laws preclude that ...for now.

Ohhh.. I was wondering when you would bring that up. And, how many countries besides Japan pulled off a sneak attack of that magnatude on a military base during peace time. Also, those two bombs saved more lives on both sides that he inevitable invasion of Japan would have cost. Period.

... and don't kid yourself, kid. You guys were working on nuclear weapons, too. The heavy water experiments uncovered after the war proved that. It's only our superior science and industry (and a bunch of really smart Jews) that allowed us to attain that goal before you. In spite of all your peaceful posturing, it almost sounds like you're sorry you didn't.


And, we're also the biggest prodiucer in the world and export more in foreign aid, both goods and money, than anyone else. ..and when shiit hits the fan, who does the world come crying to to save them? Hint... it ain't germany.


And, I always thought you were simply ignorant and a bit proud but now I'm leaning towards totally anti-American and simply jealous of our countries accomplishments,

I shall only respond to your first and last line as the rest is too far gone into Jingoism territory.

The original americans are mostly people from europe who couldn't hack it over here or who messed up badly or just plain stupid.
That's how you got Carl Panzram.
Just to make it very clear I am not anti american, and certainly not jealous of Big Macs and Super Size, just anti lies and pro human rights.

Have a nice day

Bernd

[markw]

I shall only respond to your first and last line as the rest is too far gone into Jingoism territory.and a fitting response to your posts.


The original americans are mostly people from europe who couldn't hack it over here or who messed up badly or just plain stupid.Now you're simply grasping at straws. Actually, a lot came here for religious and political freedom. They must have had something in them since, within a few generations, they were the basis of the biggest nation in the world who did more for human rights than any other nation in the history of the world.

I do note that during the revolution, the German mercaneries were paid by England, though.



That's how you got Carl Panzram.Actually, he was BORN here of parents who, by the way, had recently immigrated from Germany. So, you're saying that they knew they were going to spawn a serial killer and chose to come here to do it?
.

Just to make it very clear I am not anti american, and certainly not jealous of Big Macs and Super Size, just anti lies and pro human rights.You are so willing to search out and believe the worst lies and ignore the good truths that I find your purported altruism to be transparent. No, you've got that same "master race" attitude that seem to be endemic your people.

[Bernd]

and a fitting response to your posts.

Now you're simply grasping at straws. Actually, a lot came here for religious and political freedom. They must have had something in them since, within a few generations, they were the basis of the biggest nation in the world who did more for human rights than any other nation in the history of the world.

I do note that during the revolution, the German mercaneries were paid by England, though.


Actually, he was BORN here of parents who, by the way, had recently immigrated from Germany. So, you're saying that they knew they were going to spawn a serial killer and chose to come here to do it?
.
You are so willing to search out and believe the worst lies and ignore the good truths that I find your purported altruism to be transparent. No, you've got that same "master race" attitude that seem to be endemic your people.

Anyway nice to have an exchange of views. You will never convince me that the US are the greatest nation on this planet that only ever do good and everybody envies as I have no intention to tediously point out the failures.
Just one thing that I forgot in my hasty last response. The two bombs on Japan. How do you know how many lives were saved by dropping Nuclear Bombs on ordinary people. That is a big statement and shows either a great deal of arrogance or stupidity. Or the use of a secret time machine.I would love to know.
No master race gene in me I am affraid, I think it has emigrated, too.Guess where to? That's why I work for myself. Only answerable to myself.

Take it easy-you win

Bernd

[markw]

Anyway nice to have an exchange of views. You will never convince me that the US are the greatest nation on this planet that only ever do good and everybody envies as I have no intention to tediously point out the failures.
Just one thing that I forgot in my hasty last response. The two bombs on Japan. How do you know how many lives were saved by dropping Nuclear Bombs on ordinary people. That is a big statement and shows either a great deal of arrogance or stupidity. Or the use of a secret time machine.I would love to know.
No master race gene in me I am affraid, I think it has emigrated, too.Guess where to? That's why I work for myself. Only answerable to myself.

Take it easy-you win

BerndBut, you are so enthustiac about whatever wrong you precieve that you believe that it outweighs all the good we've done and will continue to do.

As for the bombs on Japan, get over it. You think the inevitable full scale invasion of the main island would have saved lives? Wrong! Better minds than yours weighed the costs and benefits. It's done and it WAS the right thing to do at that time. You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

Learn some history along with economics. Perhaps then you'll come off actually knowing something rather than blindly reacting to your emotions.

Perhaps the master race has emigrated. ..to England.

[Resident Loser]

...perhaps you didn't get the chance to read this...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=104940

From Sept. '05, it is obviously a response to Florian, when he did one of his idiotic, Euro-centric, finger-pointing tirades...give it a little time for the system to get to post #62 in the thread...

More than enough blame to go around I think...

And the two A-bombs...How many more people would have died (on both sides) in an all-out, b@!!$-to-the-wall invasion of the Japanese homeland? In addition it was obviously of great propaganda value, as it most likely kept Stalin and the USSR in check...a divided Germany would have been small potatoes...

As a history buff (in fact as someone who wanted to be, but never became, a history teacher), I have found that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to nearly any event...just don't take things at face value...

jimHJJ(...look beyond the obvious...)

[Bernd]

But, you are so enthustiac about whatever wrong you precieve that you believe that it outweighs all the good we've done and will continue to do.

As for the bombs on Japan, get over it. Better minds than yours weighed the costs and benefits. It's done and it WAS the right thing to do at that time. You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

Learn some history along with economics. Perhaps then you'll come off actually knowing something rather than blindly reacting to your emotions.

Once again Mark just your opinion and no direct answer to my question. Anyway I enjoyed this little tet-a tet and you are wrong. Nothing is more counter productive to me then having to point out faults (I judge Dogs-and one judges Virtues not faults,same as I try to do with everything else). Many great things come from your great nation, but not all and not all are good. You came over as blowing the trumpet of the all knowing all conquering Yank.Which, if that is you, then good luck to you and we have nothing in common. If not then I am sure we could have a great night over some cool Beer (make it Czech i.e. neutral) one day.
Till then you enjoy being an american I enjoy being european and am thankful for having had this opportunity to exchange views.
Let there be music.

Bernd

[E-Stat]

The original americans are mostly people from europe who couldn't hack it over here or who messed up badly or just plain stupid.
Original Americans from Europe? Take out your globe and compare the width of the Bering Strait to The Atlantic Ocean.

rw

[GMichael]

Does JOEBIALEK get extra-credit in GMichael's troll class? Look what this thing started!

I'm still trying to keep my head down.
Extra credit for JOEBIALEK? Yes.
Troll class? No.
At the risk of being serious for a minute (you know how I hate that) He brought up a very valid topic and had interesting questions and intelligent comments. Not a troll.

Most everyone here has brought up valid points. Some have been more aggressive about those points than others. I try to stay out of these discussions for 3 main reasons. 1. I get enough stress at work. 2. I trend to get carried away and start fighting. 3. I don't know what the f.k I'm talking about. (Sorry. couldn't help it)

A few points.

JFK was killed.
The story we've been fed is a joke.
We are not stupid enough to swallow it. ( We are not blind)
We are not responsible for everything that's gone wrong in this world.
We have been responsible for a lot of it.
Other countries have been just as responsible.
Some even more so.
We are not perfect.
Many other countries are far worse.
We are not all John Wayne, shoot from the hip types.
Some of us are John Wayne, shoot from the hip types.
Other countries have the same types we do.
We all need to share this world together.
All countries, races, colors, religions & sexual orientations have good and bad people.
No one is completely good.
No one is completely bad.

Thanks to bobsticks for bringing us back to Earth.

[Bernd]

...perhaps you didn't get the chance to read this...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=104940

From Sept. '05, it is obviously a response to Florian, when he did one of his idiotic, Euro-centric, finger-pointing tirades...give it a little time for the system to get to post #62 in the thread...

More than enough blame to go around I think...

And the two A-bombs...How many more people would have died (on both sides) in an all-out, b@!!$-to-the-wall invasion of the Japanese homeland? In addition it was obviously of great propaganda value, as it most likely kept Stalin and the USSR in check...a divided Germany would have been small potatoes...

As a history buff (in fact as someone who wanted to be, but never became, a history teacher), I have found that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to nearly any event...just don't take things at face value...

jimHJJ(...look beyond the obvious...)

Thanks Jim,

I am no History buff. I am just interested especially in recent history as it is that that shaped Europe and especially my country and Family.
As I popinted out before my grandfather, on mothers, side was completely anti nazi and even lost his Head teaching position to become a toilet cleaner in the same school. Whereas my fathers father had his own very successful business and was a through and through Nazi and Gestapo Officer.We have a signed copy of "Mein Kampf" with special wishes to ...
He ended up doing 8 years in Spandau and when released became an alcoholic. Just couldn't deal with that the 1000 year Reich dream had vanished. That in turn deprived my dad of his childhood and now he is an alcoholic and a very bitter man (never left germany).
On the other side of the coin the peaceloving headmaster lived to a ripe old age and taught many children the value of respecting your fellow man,the utmost importance of the truth and the total nonsense of superiority. I guess I take after that side-Thank God or who ever needs thanking.

How is the Snow?

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

Original Americans from Europe? Take out your globe and compare the width of the Bering Strait to The Atlantic Ocean.

rw

Thank you for your input, but I think we didn't talk about the Native Americans.

Bernd

[Bernd]

I'm still trying to keep my head down.
Extra credit for JOEBIALEK? Yes.
Troll class? No.
At the risk of being serious for a minute (you know how I hate that) He brought up a very valid topic and had interesting questions and intelligent comments. Not a troll.

Most everyone here has brought up valid points. Some have been more aggressive about those points than others. I try to stay out of these discussions for 3 main reasons. 1. I get enough stress at work. 2. I trend to get carried away and start fighting. 3. I don't know what the f.k I'm talking about. (Sorry. couldn't help it)

A few points.

JFK was killed.
The story we've been fed is a joke.
We are not stupid enough to swallow it. ( We are not blind)
We are not responsible for everything that's gone wrong in this world.
We have been responsible for a lot of it.
Other countries have been just as responsible.
Some even more so.
We are not perfect.
Many other countries are far worse.
We are not all John Wayne, shoot from the hip types.
Some of us are John Wayne, shoot from the hip types.
Other countries have the same types we do.
We all need to share this world together.
All countries, races, colors, religions & sexual orientations have good and bad people.
No one is completely good.
No one is completely bad.

Thanks to bobsticks for bringing us back to Earth.

Hey GMichael-well summed up and I think it is winding down. I for one enjoyed it. I find that arguments are desirable and questions an absolute must. And if you don't like the answer-question that. How else are you going to find out.
How is everything with you and the new house?
My new Speakers should be here a week from now. Man I hate waiting.

Peace

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

The original americans are mostly people from europe who couldn't hack it over here or who messed up badly or just plain stupid. Bernd

...maybe some geography with those history books...as E-Stat rightly points out, the aboriginal americans most likely came from Asia via the land bridge where only the Aleutians and the Bering Sea now exist...but be that as it may...

Those who came from Europe sought, among other things...the Northwest passage, wealth via the hemispheres' natural resources, land to satiate their various empirical appetites, religious and other freedoms not afforded to them in the Old World...etc. We then devolve into the power of slavery over the indigenous population, plantations, the Triangle trade...all of this and more, as a result of the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th century European "discoveries"...

Were there penal colonies? Per se, can't say...there was indentured servitude and it's shy brother apprenticeship...both European in origin, at least in this instance...

So...sit back, pour a cold one or a warm one (being in England and all) spin a few and reflect...

jimHJJ(...on the plain, unvarnished history...)

[GMichael]

Hey GMichael-well summed up and I think it is winding down. I for one enjoyed it. I find that arguments are desirable and questions an absolute must. And if you don't like the answer-question that. How else are you going to find out.
How is everything with you and the new house?
My new Speakers should be here a week from now. Man I hate waiting.

Peace

Bernd

The house is on hold until the snow melts and the ground soffens up a bit.
Waiting is the best part. You get to think of where you'll put them how they'll sound. You get to imagine all the great tunes you'll spin.

The BOT is shining here again. How about there?

[Bernd]

...maybe some geography with those history books...as E-Stat rightly points out, the aboriginal americans most likely came from Asia via the land bridge where only the Aleutians and the Bering Sea now exist...but be that as it may...

Those who came from Europe sought, among other things...the Northwest passage, wealth via the hemispheres' natural resources, land to satiate their various empirical appetites, religious and other freedoms not afforded to them in the Old World...etc. We then devolve into the power of slavery over the indigenous population, plantations, the Triangle trade...all of this and more, as a result of the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th century European "discoveries"...

Were there penal colonies? Per se, can't say...there was indentured servitude and it's shy brother apprenticeship...both European in origin, at least in this instance...

So...sit back, pour a cold one or a warm one (being in England and all) spin a few and reflect...

jimHJJ(...on the plain, unvarnished history...)

I still think Markw and I meant the influx from Europe across the Atlantic. I am not an Idiot I know where people came from in the historic dark age. But be that as it may.
I asked you a question HOW IS THE SNOW and more important how are you????

I have a cold one-can't stand that warm soup they call beer over in old blighty.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

The house is on hold until the snow melts and the ground soffens up a bit.
Waiting is the best part. You get to think of where you'll put them how they'll sound. You get to imagine all the great tunes you'll spin.

The BOT is shining here again. How about there?

Ever so often when I get a new piece of gear I use the same 5 Tunes to gage it. I think I am just impatient by nature but ever since I got Ankylosing Spondilitis I got more relaxed.

The B.O.T. has been "Now you see me, now you don't".And it's hiding now, but it's unusualy mild.
Maybe you can post some pics when the building gets going. In some years I will be in the same position as you. We bought our piece of land in Scotland a few years back and got planning permission and for now playing around with what to build.

Bernd

[Bernd]

Cool, sounds like fun.


Mild here this year too. No complaints from me.


I plan to update my avitar with the latest pictures. That is, once I have more than a few trees to take a picture of.



Doggie?




Planning is fun. Take your time and get it right the first time.

Doggie? I don't wish to know.

Anyway I have a question how do you respond to individual sentences. Like creating boxes. Please bear with me I am an Computer Midget.

No complains on the temperature here from me too.

Bernd

[GMichael]

Ever so often when I get a new piece of gear I use the same 5 Tunes to gage it. Bernd
Cool, sounds like fun.




The B.O.T. has been "Now you see me, now you don't".And it's hiding now, but it's unusualy mild.Bernd
Mild here this year too. No complaints from me.



Maybe you can post some pics when the building gets going. In some years Bernd
I plan to update my avitar with the latest pictures. That is, once I have more than a few trees to take a picture of.



I will be in the same position as you. Bernd
Doggie?



We bought our piece of land in Scotland a few years back and got planning permission and for now playing around with what to build.

Bernd

Planning is fun. Take your time and get it right the first time.

[GMichael]

Doggie? I don't wish to know.

Anyway I have a question how do you respond to individual sentences. Like creating boxes. Please bear with me I am an Computer Midget.

No complains on the temperature here from me too.

Bernd

Hit your "respond to post" button. See the "
" at the begining? And the Gmichael at the end? Do a little copying & pasting. Anything starting with the bracketsQUOTE=NAMEBRACKET and ending with NAMEBRACKET/QUOTEBRACKET will end up in a box. Play with it till you like it.

[Resident Loser]

I still think Markw and I meant the influx from Europe across the Atlantic. I am not an Idiot I know where people came from in the historic dark age. But be that as it may.
I asked you a question HOW IS THE SNOW and more important how are you????

I have a cold one-can't stand that warm soup they call beer over in old blighty. Peace Bernd

...couldn't resist it...just breakin' 'em...merely a point of order that there were americans before there were Americans...there really were no Americans until there was an America (of the USof A-type)...ya' got yer Canadians, and Mexicans and Columbians and Brazilians and Argetinians and...and...in reality all lower-case americans...simply sub-divided...

We have had an early spring or a late thaw or something like that...the BOT and it's higher temps ( mid-day 50s F) have, as of this AM, turned the beautiful, white blanket into predominantly a gigantic, grey Slurpee, or Shlushie, or Sno-cone, at least on the streets...the Jeep is free and my new-ish Dunlops provided sufficient traction to negotiate the still-white, but deep and sloppy mess in my driveway. Long live 4WD...

Warmer today, rain on the morrow and colder, more typical temps on hand for the weekend...perhaps more flake-y precip...yahoo!

jimHJJ(...let it snow...let it snow...let it snow...)

[GMichael]

Hit your "respond to post" button. See the " at the end? Do a little copying & pasting. Anything starting with the bracketsQUOTE=NAMEBRACKET and ending with NAMEBRACKET/QUOTEBRACKET will end up in a box. Play with it till you like it.

Oops, I should have known. My explination contained "reserved words" They got used to box my reply.

[Bernd]

...couldn't resist it...just breakin' 'em...merely a point of order that there were americans before there were Americans...there really were no Americans until there was an America (of the USof A-type)...ya' got yer Canadians, and Mexicans and Columbians and Brazilians and Argetinians and...and...in reality all lower-case americans...simply sub-divided...

We have had an early spring or a late thaw or something like that...the BOT and it's higher temps ( mid-day 50s F) have, as of this AM, turned the beautiful, white blanket into predominantly a gigantic, grey Slurpee, or Shlushie, or Sno-cone, at least on the streets...the Jeep is free and my new-ish Dunlops provided sufficient traction to negotiate the still-white, but deep and sloppy mess in my driveway. Long live 4WD...

Warmer today, rain on the morrow and colder, more typical temps on hand for the weekend...perhaps more flake-y precip...yahoo!

jimHJJ(...let it snow...let it snow...let it snow...)

Well glad you're alright. I am with you on the "Long live 4WD". I have daily trips onto the Moor and heather hills through all sorts of terrain. But what I can't stand is the City Centre pristine clean 4WD. No need for them.

The cool Budweiser Budvar is going down nicely. Heavy week next week for me.

Take it easy

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

Well glad you're alright. I am with you on the "Long live 4WD". I have daily trips onto the Moor and heather hills through all sorts of terrain. But what I can't stand is the City Centre pristine clean 4WD. No need for them.

The cool Budweiser Budvar is going down nicely. Heavy week next week for me.

Take it easy

Bernd

...as a clean SUV being used as a grocery-getter, driven by a soccer-mom, loaded up with a cargo of kiddie-winkies and terrible tiny tots...

jimHJJ(...unless it's a male poseur, wannabee "adventurer"...in the Barbour field-coat and Wellies...sipping a half-decaf, mocha supremo at the neighborhood Starbucks...)

[Bernd]

...as a clean SUV being used as a grocery-getter, driven by a soccer-mom, loaded up with a cargo of kiddie-winkies and terrible tiny tots...

jimHJJ(...unless it's a male poseur, wannabee "adventurer"...in the Barbour field-coat and Wellies...sipping a half-decaf, mocha supremo at the neighborhood Starbucks...)

You got it!
Don't own a Barbour (Labour Party Contributers), also don't drink decaf or half decaf only full on caffeine shot. Black,Hot and strong and no I am not talking about the soccer mum.

I am on cooking duty tonight so I better shape myself.

Later!

Bernd

[Bernd]

The greatest thing about banging your head against somebody's wall,
is the feeling you get when you stop.

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

The greatest thing about banging your head against somebody's wall,
is the feeling you get when you stop.

Peace

BerndI wasted my time trying to educate you. All you wanted to do is ignore the facts and try to dig dirt.

[Bernd]

I wasted my time trying to educate you. All you wanted to do is ignore the facts and try to dig dirt.

Stop it. I can't stop laughing.

The moment I will need you to educate me-that's the moment I will give up.

You still don't get it. I really like your country and the people I have met. I just have a problem with your Government,military and corporate organisations trying to dominate the world. That to my mind is no different then Islam wants an Islamic world, or the Nazi's wanting a thousand year Third Reich.With Americas help Hitlers henchmen got their asses wipped and I for one am pleased about that. But you didn't do it alone.
Anyway old ground. You want confrontation go find somebody else please.

A bomb from the sky is the perfect crime!

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

Stop it. I can't stop laughing.

The moment I will need you to educate me-that's the moment I will give up.There is none so blind as those that will not see...



You still don't get it. I really like your country and the people I have met.Yeah, you really like this country all right. That's why tou took a discussion on JFK and turned it into a rant on your feelings about the current world situation. Now, had you stuck to the subject at hand, I would not have jumped in. But, no....



I just have a problem with your Government,military and corporate organisations trying to dominate the world.Well, thost three components do pretty much make up most countries, us included.



That to my mind is no different then Islam wants an Islamic world, or the Nazi's wanting a thousand year Third Reich.You really believe that trying to instill freedom is the same as what Hitler and Islam want? Here's a hint... if we wanted to dominate the world, it would be dominated by now.



With Americas help Hitlers henchmen got their asses wipped and I for one am pleased about that. But you didn't do it alone.They could not have done it without us. .And, in the event that had we NOT joined in and Germany still lost, ALL of Germany (and the rest of Europe) would have been under soviet rule like East Germany was. Betcha you would have loved that, eh? ...nothing but Trabants and Wartburgs.



Anyway old ground. You want confrontation go find somebody else please.No thanks, I'm happy throwwing facts at you so you can ignore them



A bomb from the sky is the perfect crime!Yep, you should know. You started it. Ask England.

[Bernd]

"Facts" as perceived by the "brainwashed" masses.-Yes!

As for your arrogant response to world domination. As you found out planning and doing are two different things. You can't even control little Iraq, after illegaly invading it. And Vietnam was a real success was it? Do you want some more? I was going to shut up as I do not live in your country but you keep coming back for another smacking. So all bets are off.
I get the sneaky suspicion that you are one of those, "Bullies in Uniform", by the way you try to shout me down.
You just mess up all the time and it is getting boring. I suspect you are a very insignificant little man who never achieved anything by himself.
As I said before enjoy being an american (and live in your ignorance) and I enjoy being a european and I will enjoy my close friendship with many of your countrymen. Say what you want it will not change that.I have shown your response to a few North american friends and it was laughter all round.Keep going please.
I pitty you.

Bernd

[markw]

"Facts" as perceived by the "brainwashed" masses.-Yes!As opposed to the hyperbole that jealous eurotrash spew forth?



As for your arrogant response to world domination. As you found out planning and doing are two different things. You can't even control little Iraq, after illegaly invading it.Believe it, cupcake, If we weren't trying to spare as many lives as possible we would own that land by now. But, by trying to preserve their lives we put our own people at risk. Maybe we shoulda taken a lesson outta your book and exterminated the whole race of 'em? Betcha we could do a better job if we put our full effort into it.

Your grandparents are fully aware of what we can co. And, we've got even more efficient weapons now. And, you see how west Berlin made out under our draconian rule? Would you preferred we sucked the life out of them as Russia did to their charge? Seriously, what would have stopped us except our intent to better things for you ungrateful bastishs? Think before you spew, or at least use a rubber.



And Vietnam was a real success was it?And again, had we been turned loose to fight at our full capacity that would have been a different story. You really aren't a student of history, are you?



Do you want some more? I was going to shut up as I do not live in your country but you keep coming back for another smacking.Yeah, you'll shut up all right. Just like the Black Knight. So far you're only showing your glaring ignorance of history, particularly after that "Bombs from above" stuff in the previous post. Now THAT was funny. I kinda liked my reply to that, didn't you?.


So all bets are off.Dude, all bets were off from your initial spurt in this thread. Now, keep it coming. You just don't know when to shut up. I guess all your combined jealousty and hatred for America will do that to ya. Are you sure you're not really french?



I get the sneaky suspicion that you are one of those, "Bullies in Uniform",by the way you try to shout me down.I'm not "shouting you down. I'm merely replyingwit hfacts, which you choose to ignore. So, now all servicemen are bullies in uniform? Maybe in your Gestapo mentality, but that's not the way they do things here. We try to preserve lives as much as possible, which may be our downfall.

What about that Serbia/Croatiatins thing? All your horses and all your men couldn't (or wouldn't) put that back together again. You were just happy to let them kill each other. ...or simply impotent.

So who did y'all call? hint.. it wasn't ghostbusters.

And, yet again the evil empire pulls your fat out of the fire once again and what did we ask in return? You tell me.



You just mess up all the time and it is getting boring. I suspect you are a very insignificant little man who never achieved anything by himself.I mess up all the time? Insignificant little man? So, now since you are out of "real" facts you're finallystooping to the personal insults? And even after I apologized for that "heinz" thing earlier. You do yourself proud.

Tell my three grown sons how insignificant I am. Tell it to my four grandchildren. Tell it to my church where I manage 10,000 watts of sound system three times a week.

And, tell it to the investment $$ that rolls in monthly that keep me going along with my free-lance work. Can you say two homes, two cars and no debt?

Beats cooking ...and I can set my own hours and do it from my home!



As I said before enjoy being an american (and live in your ignorance) and I enjoy being a european and I will enjoy my close friendship with many of your countrymen.Really? I guarantee that if you had the balls to speak like this in in person you wouldn't HAVE any American friends. No wonder germans are hated by tourists.


Say what you want it will not change that.I have shown your response to a few North american friends and it was laughter all round.Keep going please.
I pitty you.right. Well then, it's quite obvious that they don't know history either. ..or they are just humoring the poor little german cook.

Gee, did anyone else notice that the two most arrogant America haters in this forum are both german? Coincidence?

[trollgirl]

Original Americans from Europe? Take out your globe and compare the width of the Bering Strait to The Atlantic Ocean.

rw

...people seem to have come here from all over. There is the majority opinion that Native Americans developed in isolation for many thousands of years, but the theory is easy to punch holes in:

advanced cultures often sprang up where currents from the Old World came by here

artifacts were left here by [off the top of my head] the Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Chinese, Japanese, Vikings,

the Zuni appear to be of Japanese descent

the Mandan language is said to be partly Welsh

extensive ruins of a Baal-worshiping culture are still to be found in New England, and Indian legends relate how they were massacred

King Solomon may have operated copper mines in the Great Lakes area, or at least somebody did, as the mines have been found

this is not well known, but ancient writing from Egypt (an early dynasty) has been found in Australia - who knows then, who went where way back when...

Laz

[Bernd]

As opposed to the hyperbole that jealous eurotrash spew forth?


Believe it, cupcake, If we weren't trying to spare as many lives as possible we would own that land by now. But, by trying to preserve their lives we put our own people at risk. Maybe we shoulda taken a lesson outta your book and exterminated the whole race of 'em? Betcha we could do a better job if we put our full effort into it.

Your grandparents are fully aware of what we can co. And, we've got even more efficient weapons now. And, you see how west Berlin made out under our draconian rule? Would you preferred we sucked the life out of them as Russia did to their charge? Seriously, what would have stopped us except our intent to better things for you ungrateful bastishs? Think before you spew, or at least use a rubber.


And again, had we been turned loose to fight at our full capacity that would have been a different story. You really aren't a student of history, are you?


Yeah, you'll shut up all right. Just like the Black Knight. So far you're only showing your glaring ignorance of history, particularly after that "Bombs from above" stuff in the previous post. Now THAT was funny. I kinda liked my reply to that, didn't you?.

Dude, all bets were off from your initial spurt in this thread. Now, keep it coming. You just don't know when to shut up. I guess all your combined jealousty and hatred for America will do that to ya. Are you sure you're not really french?


I'm not "shouting you down. I'm merely replyingwit hfacts, which you choose to ignore. So, now all servicemen are bullies in uniform? Maybe in your Gestapo mentality, but that's not the way they do things here. We try to preserve lives as much as possible, which may be our downfall.

What about that Serbia/Croatiatins thing? All your horses and all your men couldn't (or wouldn't) put that back together again. You were just happy to let them kill each other. ...or simply impotent.

So who did y'all call? hint.. it wasn't ghostbusters.

And, yet again the evil empire pulls your fat out of the fire once again and what did we ask in return? You tell me.


I mess up all the time? Insignificant little man? So, now since you are out of "real" facts you're finallystooping to the personal insults? And even after I apologized for that "heinz" thing earlier. You do yourself proud.

Tell my three grown sons how insignificant I am. Tell it to my four grandchildren. Tell it to my church where I manage 10,000 watts of sound system three times a week.

And, tell it to the investment $$ that rolls in monthly that keep me going along with my free-lance work. Can you say two homes, two cars and no debt?

Beats cooking ...and I can set my own hours and do it from my home!


Really? I guarantee that if you had the balls to speak like this in in person you wouldn't HAVE any American friends. No wonder germans are hated by tourists.

right. Well then, it's quite obvious that they don't know history either. ..or they are just humoring the poor little german cook.

Gee, did anyone else notice that the two most arrogant America haters in this forum are both german? Coincidence?

Very quickly- Land in Scotland,House in England,House in Berlin(part-owned with my brother-hope that counts on your scale), Apartment in Teneriffe(that's one of the Canary Islands),two successful businesses (one mine, one my wifes) two cars, no debt(well Visa has a little on it, but I will clear it-I promise),6 children (all from my wifes first marriage), 4 grandchildren,11 dogs(take a look at our website) one parrot(African Grey-speaks english with a german accent),Grousse moor rented,Holland & Holland 20 bore, but only 2x40 watts to take care off in my home,Palzaleri Suits,no church.Any more you need to know ?

You talk with so much authority on what "YOU" did (service et all) to sort the second world war-you weren't even born when the war finished. So what did YOU do? Talk about second hand info. Brainwashed! So I presume your hour of "Glory" was Vietnam-enough said.

Unfortunatly I will not be able to attend anymore of "MARKW's" right wing fantasy view lessons. I will have to return to the real world. So thanks for your "Pearls of Wisdom". I shall treasure them. As for anybody being hated- I don't think we can compete.

So long and enjoy your 10000 watts and your church.Your right wing views and religous leanings sound to me like the "Fourth Reich" is on the move.
Heil Markw!

[Bernd]

...people seem to have come here from all over. There is the majority opinion that Native Americans developed in isolation for many thousands of years, but the theory is easy to punch holes in:

advanced cultures often sprang up where currents from the Old World came by here

artifacts were left here by [off the top of my head] the Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians, Chinese, Japanese, Vikings,

the Zuni appear to be of Japanese descent

the Mandan language is said to be partly Welsh

extensive ruins of a Baal-worshiping culture are still to be found in New England, and Indian legends relate how they were massacred

King Solomon may have operated copper mines in the Great Lakes area, or at least somebody did, as the mines have been found

this is not well known, but ancient writing from Egypt (an early dynasty) has been found in Australia - who knows then, who went where way back when...

Laz

Hi Laz,

Now here is an open minded view that makes interesting reading.Not some fantasy blind faith.
Have a nice weekend.

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

Very quickly- Land in Scotland,House in England,House in Berlin(part-owned with my brother-hope that counts on your scale), Apartment in Teneriffe(that's one of the Canary Islands),two successful businesses (one mine, one my wifes) two cars, no debt(well Visa has a little on it, but I will clear it-I promise),6 children (all from my wifes first marriage), 4 grandchildren,11 dogs(take a look at our website) one parrot(African Grey-speaks english with a german accent),Grousse moor rented,Holland & Holland 20 bore, but only 2x40 watts to take care off in my home,Palzaleri Suits,no church.Any more you need to know ?Good for you but remember, I never called you insignificant. A bit of entry-level psychology shows that by the order in which you list what you feel defines your worth in this world that you see your homes and business' as coming before your family. ...and perhaps even see your animals on the same level as them.

Tell me again how you contribute to society? Oh, that's right. You do nothing except trash America who DOES try to help the world.



You talk with so much authority on what "YOU" did (service et all) to sort the second world war-you weren't even born when the war finished. So what did YOU do? Talk about second hand info. Brainwashed! So I presume your hour of "Glory" was Vietnam-enough said.And, your point is? Yes, it was the Viet Nam eara and no, I'm sorry to disappoint you by telling you that I never killed any babies, or anyone else for that manner. I handled microwave communications and was pretty much behind the lines. ...but my contributions were important.

And, tell me, when did you serve your country? Oh, that's right. That's beneath you. There's not enough profit in it and besides, you might get hurt. Let others with more courage and a sense of giving back to society do it for you. No sense sacrificing time or effort and doing hard work when others with more sense of community will do for you. Boy, talk about living off of spillover benefits.

Do you at least offer discounts to servicemen in those fancy restaurants you brag about? Afterall ,they are the ones thet made it possible for you to have them.



Unfortunatly I will not be able to attend anymore of "MARKW's" right wing fantasy view lessons. I will have to return to the real world. So thanks for your "Pearls of Wisdom". I shall treasure them. As for anybody being hated- I don't think we can compete. So long and enjoy your 10000 watts and your church.Your right wing views and religous leanings sound to me like the "Fourth Reich" is on the move.
Heil Markw!Heil eurotrash. I DO enjoy my church work. It's something I give back to society and don't get paid for in $$. I also on occasion pitch in and make food for the homeless there also but not too often. I do have other things to do. It's not gourmet quality but sometimes it's all they get that day. You DO at least give leftovers to charity, don't you?

Given your proclivity do nothing and yet still try to claim the high moral ground by demonizing others that do attempt to make a positive influence in the world tells me you're the "insignificant little man". Remember calling me that from a previous post? ...but you don't even realize it.

So, tell me again where you did for others without demanding a price? Throwing a dollar two into a jar doesn't count.

[GMichael]

one parrot(African Grey-speaks english with a german accent),


Now that's funny.

Polly want a dark beer with that cracker?

[Bernd]

Now that's funny.

Polly want a dark beer with that cracker?

He also swears bilingual.

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

He also swears bilingual.

Peace

Bernd

I have a friend with an African Grey. You have to be very carefull what you say around it. He used to keep it in his bedroom. One day he had company over and the bird started making sounds that should only be heard when in a bed. He doesn't keep it there anymore. But now it sings, mostly soft rock.

[Bernd]

Good for you but remember, I never called you insignificant. A bit of entry-level psychology shows that by the order in which you list what you feel defines your worth in this world that you see your homes and business' as coming before your family. ...and perhaps even see your animals on the same level as them.

Tell me again how you contribute to society? Oh, that's right. You do nothing except trash America who DOES try to help the world.


And, your point is? Yes, it was the Viet Nam eara and no, I'm sorry to disappoint you by telling you that I never killed any babies, or anyone else for that manner. I handled microwave communications and was pretty much behind the lines. ...but my contributions were important.

And, tell me, when did you serve your country? Oh, that's right. That's beneath you. There's not enough profit in it and besides, you might get hurt. Let others with more courage and a sense of giving back to society do it for you. No sense sacrificing time or effort and doing hard work when others with more sense of community will do for you. Boy, talk about living off of spillover benefits.

Do you at least offer discounts to servicemen in those fancy restaurants you brag about? Afterall ,they are the ones thet made it possible for you to have them.


Heil eurotrash. I DO enjoy my church work. It's something I give back to society and don't get paid for in $$. I also on occasion pitch in and make food for the homeless there also but not too often. I do have other things to do. It's not gourmet quality but sometimes it's all they get that day. You DO at least give leftovers to charity, don't you?

Given your proclivity do nothing and yet still try to claim the high moral ground by demonizing others that do attempt to make a positive influence in the world tells me you're the "insignificant little man". Remember calling me that from a previous post? ...but you don't even realize it.

So, tell me again where you did for others without demanding a price? Throwing a dollar two into a jar doesn't count.

Ricki Marie Cartwright College Trustfund (her father got murdered by the state of Texas)
Routing/ABA number: 071000013
Account number: 694646225

Regular contributions to hopefully allow the little girl a better life.

And just to clear something up. I do NOT own any fancy Restaurant as you implied. I worked in many and sold my interest in one 13 Years ago, when I got diagnosed with AS.I now breed and train gundogs.
And may I take my hat off to you for doing your bit for the community.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

I have a friend with an African Grey. You have to be very carefull what you say around it. He used to keep it in his bedroom. One day he had company over and the bird started making sounds that should only be heard when in a bed. He doesn't keep it there anymore. But now it sings, mostly soft rock.

No kidding. Sometimes when I transfer money from Berlin to here the Parrot repeats the account number for days. Or one of my dogs gets called darling-well you can guess. No chance for me to ever have a litle fling-not that I want to,mind.

Bernd

[GMichael]

No kidding. Sometimes when I transfer money from Berlin to here the Parrot repeats the account number for days. Or one of my dogs gets called darling-well you can guess. No chance for me to ever have a litle fling-not that I want to,mind.

Bernd

Account numbers huh? Hey Polly, let's take a walk.

Oh! Oh! I.. I.. I'm gonna.. gonna..
KNOCK IT OFF POLLY!

[GMichael]

He's called Iggy and I've threatend him if he'll ever opens his beak he's done for. I used to breed African Greys but when the business took off I didn't have enough time. So he is the last one we've ever bred.
Visitor can't believe when they come here. Hearing him is worth the trip alone.

Bernd

Oh great. You'll have company and they'll go to say something and Lggy (sounds like LG?) will say (in your voice), "If you open your beak, you're dead." Nice.
Didn't think that one through huh? Maybe you should have tought him nice things to say. Have a nice day. Drive safe. Where's the BOT?
I'm guessing it's too late for lil' Lggy now.

[Bernd]

Account numbers huh? Hey Polly, let's take a walk.

Oh! Oh! I.. I.. I'm gonna.. gonna..
KNOCK IT OFF POLLY!

He's called Iggy and I've threatend him if he'll ever opens his beak he's done for. I used to breed African Greys but when the business took off I didn't have enough time. So he is the last one we've ever bred.
Visitor can't believe when they come here. Hearing him is worth the trip alone.

Bernd

[GMichael]

Errr..?

My reply landed before your post? Dang I'm good! Didn't know I could read minds did you?

[Bernd]

Errr..?

My reply landed before your post? Dang I'm good! Didn't know I could read minds did you?

Now that is wired. I didn't verbally tell Iggy, I showed him some pictures what will happen to him if he ever....
I think I will have to be careful what I think. Anyway I will clean some records now so my response time might be a bit slow.
Have a nice weekend

Bernd

[noddin0ff]

Hi Laz,

Now here is an open minded view that makes interesting reading.Not some fantasy blind faith.
Have a nice weekend.

Peace

Bernd

There is a subtle difference between 'open minded' and 'not grounded in reality'. Subtle but important...

[Bernd]

There is a subtle difference between 'open minded' and 'not grounded in reality'. Subtle but important...

Yes I agree there is a difference. But never blindly believe everything and never believe anything without questioning it.There is a high price to pay if you don't.

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

Ricki Marie Cartwright College Trustfund (her father got murdered by the state of Texas)
Routing/ABA number: 071000013
Account number: 694646225
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt here since English is not your first language.Please note that there is a significant dfference in the meanings of the word "murder" and "execute". The first impllies an undeserved death where the second implies a drastic punishment incurred as the result of one's previous actions.

Is this the case involved?

http://www.txexecutions.org/reports/344.asp

One sentence from that article sticks out.

"Cartwright's lawyers tried to have his execution stayed, claiming that he was convicted on false testimony. Though they did not deny that Cartwright shot the victim, they claimed that he was under duress, following Overstreet's orders because he was afraid of him."

It doesn't seem like he just met these two guys. My friends don't put me "under duress" to do anything. Perhaps he should have chosen his friends and activities more carefully, partcularly when he had young children to think about?. I hope you're more careful or do birds of a feather flock together?

Now, is "murder" your final answer?



Regular contributions to hopefully allow the little girl a better lifeThat's all well and good and shows an effort to want to help a friend, albiet one that chooses to hang with self-admitted skinheads (nazis?) and leaves his children at home while he takes part in gay bashings/killings, but have you ever considred helping Nick Moraida's family? After all, they also suffered a loss, one for which your friend was responsible.



And just to clear something up. I do NOT own any fancy Restaurant as you implied. I worked in many and sold my interest in one 13 Years ago, when I got diagnosed with AS.I now breed and train gundogs.Perhaps I misinterperted your previous posts.

Seriously, what's AS?



And may I take my hat off to you for doing your bit for the community.Thank you. There's nothng stopping you from doing it too.

Now. let's both drop this and move on.

[Bernd]

Is this the case involved? .

http://www.txexecutions.org/reports/344.aspOne sentence from that article sticks out.

"Cartwright's lawyers tried to have his execution stayed, claiming that he was convicted on false testimony. Though they did not deny that Cartwright shot the victim, they claimed that he was under duress, following Overstreet's orders because he was afraid of him."

It doesn't seem like he just met these two guys. My friends don't put me "under duress" to do anything. Perhaps he should have chosen his friends and activities more carefully, partcularly when he had young children to think about?. I hope you're more careful or do birds of a feather flock together?


That's all well and good and shows an effort to want to help a friend, albiet one that's a self-admitted skinhead (nazi?) who leaves his children at home while he takes part in gay bashings/killings, but have you ever considred helping Nick Moraida's family? After all, they also suffered a loss, one for which your friend was responsible.


Perhaps I misinterperted your previous posts.

Seriously, what's AS?


Thank you. There's nothng stopping you from doing it too.

Now. let's both drop this and move on.

Yes that's the case and no Richard wasn't a skinhead. I don't really want to get into details. It's not going to bring him back. Just three points his Lawyers (ha,ha,ha, incompetend beyond belief, I found out to late,trusted the US Justice system-a good lawyer then and I am sure it would have ended differently)adviced him against communicating with Overstreet and that one letter,written by a frightend inmature young (boy)man,convicted him.Also on doing swaps no gun shot residue, in fact no hard evidence, was ever found on Richard and no they met very recently.Expensive mistake. But most importantly there where 5 people all together. Two were never called to give evidence or interviewed (cost money to track them down). I guess a death quota had to be filled.No rich man on death row.
As for doing good. I feel that it is important that Ricki does not grow up thinking all the world is bad and it gives me pleasure to see her fund grow. Not her fault who or what her Dad did or didn't do.I felt very uneasy about Nick's family and still do. You can only do so much.And no- birds of a feather do not flock together here. Don't know why you had to ask that.
I had a friend dying of Lung cancer two years ago and ever since then I make weekly trips to the local Hospice with one of my dogs for patient therapy. Now that's a leveller.
AS- Ankylosing Spondilitis. A nightmare in short.

Have a good weekend

Peace

Bernd

P.S. Yes, I still think it's murder-premeditated and Government authorised at that.

[markw]

"Cartwright also was offered a plea deal that included 40 years in prison, but he turned it down. His defense attorney, Mark Woerner, said Cartwright rejected the deal because he "would prefer death over 40 years" in prison. "

It sounds as if he's not quite as innocent as you would have us all believe but, as in all things, there are always at least two sides to any story. To me, it looks like he chose to roll the dice and came up craps.

Link: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Pending/05/may05.htm

You have to page down a bit but the full text is there.

...sorry 'bout that AS dude, hang in there.

[Bernd]

"Cartwright also was offered a plea deal that included 40 years in prison, but he turned it down. His defense attorney, Mark Woerner, said Cartwright rejected the deal because he "would prefer death over 40 years" in prison. "

It sounds as if he's not quite as inocent as you would have us believe but, as in all things, there is always at least two sides to any story. .

Link: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Pending/05/may05.htm

You have to page down a bit but the full text is there.

...sorry 'bout that AS dude, hang in there.

I am well aware of the prodeathpenalty site. 40 years in jail for something you didn't do, I wouldn't have agreed to that aswell. Furthermore Richard believed his Lawyer.BIG Mistake.
I was all for the deathpenalty before this. Very different, believe me, if you see it from the other side.A time limit for evidence to be introduced-what nonsense is that. Somebody's life is at stake.When the Government has you in their Cross Hairs it is very difficult to brake free, believe me.
I believe that most inmates on DR are guilty and nasty pieces. But I do not believe a Government has the right to murder it's citizens. Also my very personal conviction is this: No one is that pure to have the right to take a life.No one.
Yes the AS can be a nightmare and I thank you for your kind words. The hard bit is you can't plan anything. It can just flair up out of the blue. Time bomb. Here is that word Bomb again.

Good to converse with you

Bernd

[markw]

I am well aware of the prodeathpenalty site. 40 years in jail for something you didn't do, I wouldn't have agreed to that aswell. Furthermore Richard believed his Lawyer.BIG Mistake.
I was all for the deathpenalty before this. Very different, believe me, if you see it from the other side.A time limit for evidence to be introduced-what nonsense is that. Somebody's life is at stake.When the Government has you in their Cross Hairs it is very difficult to brake free, believe me.
I believe that most inmates on DR are guilty and nasty pieces. But I do not believe a Government has the right to murder it's citizens. Also my very personal conviction is this: No one is that pure to have the right to take a life.No one.
Yes the AS can be a nightmare and I thank you for your kind words. The hard bit is you can't plan anything. It can just flair up out of the blue. Time bomb. Here is that word Bomb again.

Good to converse with you

Bernd.. .he could appeal over and over again until he won his freedom but, after having takien it to the US supreme court, which is NOT very pro-death penalty, .he pretty much ran out of options.

[Bernd]

.. .he could appeal over and over again until he won his freedom but, after having takien it to the US supreme court, which is NOT very pro-death penalty, .he pretty much ran out of options.

Just take a look at how many appeals are actually succesful. You can't place much faith in that as everyone uses the appeals as a matter of course-even the guilty ones.
I don't wan't to get into an argument about this as it is very inhuman and barbaric to me. And why keep people without any human contact and feed them breakfast at 2 in the morning and lunch at 7, if not to be sadistic to them.
Just one point-How can you trust a system that on Richards death certificate had his date of birth out by 5 years and his mothers maiden name damn right wrong.
It is better to build schools rather then more prisons as that what is taken place now. Also the cost of all those appeals is enormous and keeping one inmate for life incarcerated works out cheaper and gives the chance to right a mistake, and does not create new victims.
The money saved can build schools etc.
Phew. Sorry about my soapbox, but it makes no sense to me to keep somebody for 10 or more years to then murder them.
I don't think people will very readily change their views as you need to experience it first hand. Yes there are the do gooders (doing more harm then good sometimes) and then there are the revenge lot who have their own believes.

I will leave you tonight with a true story that took place, in my neck off the woods, for you to ponder over.
Some years back a young man, low in IQ, took a short cut across a cemetry and came across a gravedigger doing some unspeakable things to a life less female body. The gravedigger smeared blood from the young dead girl on the slow man gave him the knife and run away. To cut a long story short the slow man was convicted of murder and indecent assault and sentenced to life (would have been death if we still had it). 15 years later the grave digger got terminal cancer and on his deathbed confessed to what he did all those years ago.
The slow man was released on appeal and the conviction quashed-not really possible with the death penalty. And I can not believe that this case is the only case like that. Two years later the slow man died of broken spirit and abuse endured in prison.

Anyway it's Saturday night and I will go and spin some tunes and like to say I am glad our discussion didn't turn nasty. And if you ever find yourself on foreign soil you're welcome to call in.

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

The original post got steered off course and my hand was on the wheel. So I will try and put it back on course.
There are just too many unexplained coincidences to point the finger at Lee Harvey Oswald.
Lots of doubts, but for me one of the most fundamental points is this:

"Where is the evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald" was on the 6th floor of theTexas School Book Depository when JFK got shot?" But more importantly where is the evidence that he was even there at all? Where is it?

Peace

Bernd

[Bernd]

As a logical sidestep.
What do you think the reason was why JFK was assasinated and by whom?

I have no idea as for the reason or who pulled the trigger nor have I got a theory. I just think there are many doubts about Oswald being the lone gunman.

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

As a logical sidestep.
What do you think the reason was why JFK was assasinated and by whom?

I have no idea as for the reason or who pulled the trigger nor have I got a theory. I just think there are many doubts about Oswald being the lone gunman.

Peace

Bernd

I don't know. But if forced to quess, I would either say the US government, the Mafia, or both. This oppinion is not based on facts. Just my gut feeling.

[GMichael]

Oswald was in Russia just a year before, he evencontacted the KGB himself, although the story goes that the KGB turned him down.

The real problem is that if he was a KGB agent, then this would have called for WWWIII as a retaliatoryresponse. Of course this was, and is unacceptable so the FBI contacted the Mafia to hire Ruby to kill Oswald. This whole thing makes a lot more sense than a lot of the other conspiracy theories I've heard, but it's never talked about as if it's true, we still owe the russians a nuke blast or three.

Interesting points. I forgot about the KBG. But do you think Oswald was the only shooter?

Is it too late for me to change my vote?

[Geoffcin]

I don't know. But if forced to quess, I would either say the US government, the Mafia, or both. This oppinion is not based on facts. Just my gut feeling.

Oswald was in Russia just a year before, he evencontacted the KGB himself, although the story goes that the KGB turned him down.

The real problem is that if he was a KGB agent, then this would have called for WWWIII as a retaliatoryresponse. Of course this was, and is unacceptable so the FBI contacted the Mafia to hire Ruby to kill Oswald. This whole thing makes a lot more sense than a lot of the other conspiracy theories I've heard, but it's never talked about as if it's true, we still owe the russians a nuke blast or three.

[Bernd]

Oswald was in Russia just a year before, he evencontacted the KGB himself, although the story goes that the KGB turned him down.

The real problem is that if he was a KGB agent, then this would have called for WWWIII as a retaliatoryresponse. Of course this was, and is unacceptable so the FBI contacted the Mafia to hire Ruby to kill Oswald. This whole thing makes a lot more sense than a lot of the other conspiracy theories I've heard, but it's never talked about as if it's true, we still owe the russians a nuke blast or three.

I think Oswald was not agent material as the CIA found out. They kept a file on him and had him as some maverick element. Ed Lopez from the HSCA testified to that effect.
But him being involved with the KGB I wouldn't discount at all.
And Ruby was definitly let in to the Police headquaters to cary out his task.

Just as a pointer. When the wall in Berlin came down they sealed off the Stasi (Secret east german police) Headquarter and later on going through their files the german authorities found a file on every west-european. Makes you think does it not.

Peace

Bernd

[GMichael]

Oswald could have easily been the 60's version of a suicide bomber.

[Geoffcin]

I think Oswald was not agent material as the CIA found out. They kept a file on him and had him as some maverick element. Ed Lopez from the HSCA testified to that effect.
But him being involved with the KGB I wouldn't discount at all.
And Ruby was definitly let in to the Police headquaters to cary out his task.

Peace

Bernd

Cause he was pretty nuts. But the KGB said the same thing at the time, and I don't believe anything they say. As a rouge operative that can't be traced back to them it's too good to be true to turn down.

Remember Oswald had every intention of getting away with this, and he damn near did too. If he had gotten out of Texas he would have made a beeline for Russia with his Russian bride.

[Bernd]

Cause he was pretty nuts. But the KGB said the same thing at the time, and I don't believe anything they say. As a rouge operative that can't be traced back to them it's too good to be true to turn down.

Remember Oswald had every intention of getting away with this, and he damn near did too. If he had gotten out of Texas he would have made a beeline for Russia with his Russian bride.

I don't think he expected to see Marina again as he left his wedding ring behind at Ruth Paine's house, where Marina stayed, ( that of course is no proof of his intention to kill the president-just that the relationship was over).
It is just the most amazing murder story in recent history if not ever.
I don't think we will ever know for sure. I go shooting and have a bespoke rifle and I find it impossible to let off three rounds acuratley in the time frame allocated for the Dallas shooting (maybe I am not as good as Lee). You certainly can not do that with a $ 19.- Mail order rifle.

Bernd

[Geoffcin]

I don't think he expected to see Marina again as he left his wedding ring behind at Ruth Paine's house, where Marina stayed, ( that of course is no proof of his intention to kill the president-just that the relationship was over).
It is just the most amazing murder story in recent history if not ever.
I don't think we will ever know for sure. I go shooting and have a bespoke rifle and I find it impossible to let off three rounds acuratley in the time frame allocated for the Dallas shooting (maybe I am not as good as Lee). You certainly can not do that with a $ 19.- Mail order rifle.

Bernd

Remember the guy was nuts, but not so nuts that he thought he was going to get away with it for sure. Leaving the ring behind was a way to let Marina off the hook. It worked didn't it?

Training is the key to anything. I've seen a guy toss two skeet into the air and peg them both with a Colt 1911. Even though I hold an expert marksman rating, If I tried to do that without practice it would be impossible. I don't even think I could get one! I saw the same guy peg an 8" balloon at 150 yards with the same .45 caliber handgun. Took him two shots, but the first one was just a ranging shot to measure the slug's drop. As good as he is, he's not beyond what any other marksman can do given the proper training.

No, hitting a target from a strategic sniping location not only possible, but very likely. Especially with the proper training.

[GMichael]

Remember the guy was nuts, but not so nuts that he thought he was going to get away with it for sure. Leaving the ring behind was a way to let Marina off the hook. It worked didn't it?

Training is the key to anything. I've seen a guy toss two skeet into the air and peg them both with a Colt 1911. Even though I hold an expert marksman rating, If I tried to do that without practice it would be impossible. I don't even think I could get one! I saw the same guy peg an 8" balloon at 150 yards with the same .45 caliber handgun. Took him two shots, but the first one was just a ranging shot to measure the slug's drop. As good as he is, he's not beyond what any other marksman can do given the proper training.

No, hitting a target from a strategic sniping location not only possible, but very likely. Especially with the proper training.

I'm no gun or shooting expert although I have shot a few and get most in the center ring. I do have experience with billiards & pool. I know a guy who can throw a ball onto a table, and while it's still bouncing shoot it into a pocket. He can manage this 9 out of 10 tries. It's amazing what some people can do with enough practice.

[Bernd]

Remember the guy was nuts, but not so nuts that he thought he was going to get away with it for sure. Leaving the ring behind was a way to let Marina off the hook. It worked didn't it?

Training is the key to anything. I've seen a guy toss two skeet into the air and peg them both with a Colt 1911. Even though I hold an expert marksman rating, If I tried to do that without practice it would be impossible. I don't even think I could get one! I saw the same guy peg an 8" balloon at 150 yards with the same .45 caliber handgun. Took him two shots, but the first one was just a ranging shot to measure the slug's drop. As good as he is, he's not beyond what any other marksman can do given the proper training.

No, hitting a target from a strategic sniping location not only possible, but very likely. Especially with the proper training.

It's great is it not to see a great marksmen at work.
But what I was saying is that I doubt that Oswald (who wasn't an expert shot) could have, with a $19.- mailorder bolt action rifle, have let the shots off in the time specified by the Warren commission. Moreover there is no hard evidence that he was even there. I have not heard of any marksmen who has repeated that at a moving target and hit it.If there is one please let me know, it would love to put that doubt to bed.
And of course three shots will have to include the magic bullet. Emerging pristine after breaking a dense bone, a rib, etc. Something else I have never seen.

Bernd

[trollgirl]

I really really doubt that Oswald could have hit JFK from the sixth storey, using an inferior rifle. Nearly all shooting practice is done on a horizontal range, and the angle alone would have hopelessly thrown off his accuracy, even given that he was a crack shot, which he was not. What he was, IMO was a patsy. If you watch the film of JFK taking the bullets, it is very apparent that at least some of the shots came from the front. I have seen a diagram of all the OTHER bullets recovered from the scene, and they all originated from the sidewalk to the front left of the motorcade. Some film frames show, at that very spot, a tall man holding what could easily be a pair of pistols, but the resolution was not the best. In one such frame, a woman is standing in front of him, in a later frame, she is on the ground, apparently having caught a bullet. There is no record of her at all, but in the Warren Commission report, one of the motorcade's motorcycle cops, the one to the front left, reported blood and matter sprayed onto his motorcycle. One assassination researcher, now passed away, even supplied the man's name, a Russian ex-pat, who turned up dead during the 1972 Congressional investigation. Quite a few people became corpses during that time period...

Ask yourself: Who ordered the final, permanent sealing of the assassination records?


Laz

[wayner86]

Strange, i googled the first sentence in this guys thread and found it on 20 other forums, ...seems to be the same with all of his posts...good topic though, nonetheless.

[ericl]

Strange, i googled the first sentence in this guys thread and found it on 20 other forums, ...seems to be the same with all of his posts...good topic though, nonetheless.

he just posts the same posts on any and every forum that he can find.. Dude could give a crap about audio or anything relevant to the site.

[JOEBIALEK]

good points...

[zapr]

Perhaps known as one of the greatest murder mysteries of all time, the assassination of President John F. Kennedy has for years intrigued scholars, authors and the average American citizen. The assassination can be classified into two distinct categories: method and significance. Few would argue that too much emphasis has been given to the method and very little to the significance. This is exactly how the perpetrators would like it to be. Photographic evidence along with eyewitness testimony has already conclusively proven that JFK was shot by more than one assassin. The Mary Mormon photo clearly shows the profile of a shooter behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. It is obviously someone wearing a policeman's uniform {some speculate it was J.D. Tippit}. This was the fatal head shot. Two other bullets struck the President; the first one entered at the base of the throat and the second struck him in the back. While the positions of the assassins makes for a good game of clue, the more important issue is the significance of the assassination.

Many have speculated that the former Soviet Union, Cuba, the KKK, the Mafia, LBJ, CIA and the FBI all had strong motives to attempt this. However, given the connection of Lee Harvey Oswald to the CIA and Jack Ruby to the Mafia along with the altered autopsy reports, the evidence points to a coup de' dat by the CIA. They did it because they believed JFK was taking the United States on the wrong path towards dealing with communism. That is the reason why the cover-up has been sustained for so long. The perpetrators honestly believed they were doing the right thing for the United States at the time. The will of the people was discarded in favor of preserving the nation as they saw fit. Unfortunately, they didn't realize the long term effects of the assassination. One result was the increased power of capitalism over democracy. Profit has become more important than freedom. Corporations are more concerned with increasing the wealth of a select few than with promoting the general welfare of the very nation that allows them to conduct business. A second result has been the subordination of this nation's civil liberties to the private agendas of the powers that be. The only opinions that are accepted today are those that further the bottom line. Contrary opinions are discouraged and distorted by spin doctors. The only explanation for the lack of attention given to the significance of the assassination is because the government, the military and the media all know what happened and to expose the event for what it really was goes to the central core of what constitutes the United States of America.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The man behind the fence wearing the policemans uniform was a man named Luician Saurtee. Not sure of the spelling. His shot missed the car completely and the bullit was found inbedded in the grass across the road. The fatal head shot came from the manhole drain from in front and slightly to the right. Research has shown this through projectory as Kennedy's head moves back and to the right. Luician Saurtee was killed in Mexico City in 1974. Yes it was the CIA in conjunction with the mafia and the military industrial complex. The Vietman war was the main reason as Kennedy was in the process of getting the soldiers out. The war in Vietnam meant alot of money for very powerful men. The perpetrators were not thinking of the United States, only of themselves. There are many photographs in Dealy Plaza from that day exposing many high ranking government officials, some of who are still alive today. When asked where they were that day, most say they can't recall! One only has to look at how things changed after that day, who benifited, who was involved, and who lived the longest everafter, to be able to figure it out.

[zapr]

The original post got steered off course and my hand was on the wheel. So I will try and put it back on course.
There are just too many unexplained coincidences to point the finger at Lee Harvey Oswald.
Lots of doubts, but for me one of the most fundamental points is this:

"Where is the evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald" was on the 6th floor of theTexas School Book Depository when JFK got shot?" But more importantly where is the evidence that he was even there at all? Where is it?

Peace

Bernd There is a photogragh as the motorcade rounded the corner. In the back ground, it appears to be Oswald talking to a police officer on the steps of the book depository. So he had how many seconds to run up to the sixth floor?

[Feanor]

I think Lee Harvey Oswald did it -- period. I think that three shots were fired by him, although that's less clear. I don't think the CIA nor Mafia nor the Soviet Union nor Cuba were involved.

But here's the thing: assuming it was a CIA coup, the following statement of yours is wrong ...


.
...
Unfortunately, they didn't realize the long term effects of the assassination. One result was the increased power of capitalism over democracy. Profit has become more important than freedom. Corporations are more concerned with increasing the wealth of a select few than with promoting the general welfare of the very nation that allows them to conduct business. A second result has been the subordination of this nation's civil liberties to the private agendas of the powers that be. The only opinions that are accepted today are those that further the bottom line. ....

Had they done that, they would have understood these long term effects and approved of them. This is what conservatism in the US is about. What? Do you think it's about "family values"?

[Feanor]

Is that some tweebie jerk misfit nobody with a $20 rifle could blow 'way the high and mighty U.S. President. But I think that's the way it went down.

I suspect Oswald fired three shots -- not just two. The two bullet theory can from some "expert" who wasn't as componetent cranking the Carcano bolt as Oswald, so, not to look bad he proclaimed only two shots could have been fired but he was wrong.

Yes, Oswald was "lucky" to put the one through Kennedy's head, but luck happens. Another when through Kennedy's neck and might been the bullet found in the Governor's pant cuff. Another inflicted the Governor's wound. I don't recall what I thought was the order of the shots, except the head shot was probably last. Anyway, that's my theory -- as good as any and better than most.

[zapr]

Is that some tweebie jerk misfit nobody with a $20 rifle could blow 'way the high and mighty U.S. President. But I think that's the way it went down.

I suspect Oswald fired three shots -- not just two. The two bullet theory can from some "expert" who wasn't as componetent cranking the Carcano bolt as Oswald, so, not to look bad he proclaimed only two shots could have been fired but he was wrong.

Yes, Oswald was "lucky" to put the one through Kennedy's head, but luck happens. Another when through Kennedy's neck and might been the bullet found in the Governor's pant cuff. Another inflicted the Governor's wound. I don't recall what I thought was the order of the shots, except the head shot was probably last. Anyway, that's my theory -- as good as any and better than most.
Right........Watch the Zapuder film!

[Resident Loser]

Had they done that, they would have understood these long term effects and approved of them.

...with all the revelations re: the FBI and the CIA, I sincerely doubt they looked much past that day's two-martini lunch...

jimHJJ(...intelligence???...)

[Feanor]

...with all the revelations re: the FBI and the CIA, I sincerely doubt they looked much past that day's two-martini lunch...

jimHJJ(...intelligence???...)

I really don't believe conspiracy theories involving them.

[Feanor]

Right........Watch the Zapuder film!

That the Zapuder footage supports the hypothesis that Kennedy was shot from behind from the general location of Oswald? If you believe that a shot object will always be hurled in the same direction as the projectile, then you have been watching too much TV and movie fiction.

The bullet entered from behind without causing the head to pitch in either direction; the pitching of the head backwards was a reaction to the forward ejection of blood and other crainial matter.

[GMichael]

That the Zapuder footage supports the hypothesis that Kennedy was shot from behind from the general location of Oswald? If you believe that a shot object will always be hurled in the same direction as the projectile, then you have been watching too much TV and movie fiction.

The bullet entered from behind without causing the head to pitch in either direction; the pitching of the head backwards was a reaction to the forward ejection of blood and other crainial matter.

I wish I hadn't read this. Now I can't get the picture out of my head.

[Resident Loser]

I wish I hadn't read this. Now I can't get the picture out of my head.

...visiting sites that have the autopsy photos then...

jimHJJ(...yep, they're out there...)

[GMichael]

...visiting sites that have the autopsy photos then...

jimHJJ(...yep, they're out there...)

Strange, but I can look at a pic and then put it out of my head. But if I'm made to imagine an image, it stays with me longer.

[Resident Loser]

Strange, but I can look at a pic and then put it out of my head. But if I'm made to imagine an image, it stays with me longer.

...reading and radio is soooo much better than tee-vee...

jimHJJ(...we all know best our own deepest, darkest fears...)

[GMichael]

...reading and radio is soooo much better than tee-vee...

jimHJJ(...we all know best our own deepest, darkest fears...)

Gulp...

And I fell for it.

All have their charm. This day an' age people/kids like it the easy way.

[zapr]

[QUOTE=Feanor]That the Zapuder footage supports the hypothesis that Kennedy was shot from behind from the general location of Oswald? If you believe that a shot object will always be hurled in the same direction as the projectile, then you have been watching too much TV and movie fiction.

The bullet entered from behind without causing the head to pitch in either direction; the pitching of the head backwards was a reaction to the forward ejection of blood and other crainial matter.[/QUOTE There is no concrete evidence that Oswald was the shooter. To many eye witnesses, too much evidence to show otherwise.

[Feanor]

There is no concrete evidence that Oswald was the shooter. To many eye witnesses, too much evidence to show otherwise.[/quote]

Since Oswald wasn't brought to trial, we can't be certain that the evidence was sufficient to confict him. To me, he just looks like the most likely culprit and theories that he could not have do it don't seem compelling to me. The guilt of anyone else is pure conjecture.

Of course it's true that most Americans believe that there was some sort of conspiracy to murder Kennedy. That doesn't make it so. In any case, which theory does one believe?

[zapr]

There is no concrete evidence that Oswald was the shooter. To many eye witnesses, too much evidence to show otherwise.

Since Oswald wasn't brought to trial, we can't be certain that the evidence was sufficient to confict him. To me, he just looks like the most likely culprit and theories that he could not have do it don't seem compelling to me. The guilt of anyone else is pure conjecture.

Of course it's true that most Americans believe that there was some sort of conspiracy to murder Kennedy. That doesn't make it so. In any case, which theory does one believe?[/QUOTE]
You haven't researched the case , have you. You should, buddy. No Oswald wasn't brought to trial, they saw to that!

[Feanor]

You haven't researched the case , have you. You should, buddy. No Oswald wasn't brought to trial, they saw to that!

I completed my research, such as it was, years ago and I'm not going to revisit it.

Various conspiracy theories have some plausibility; they are not disproven. Disproving is harder than proving and I'm certainly not going to try. So you have the easier task -- to prove your favorite. Right now all these theories are conjecture.

[trollgirl]

OSWALD AND DEALEY PLAZA VS. McVEIGH AND THE OKC BOMBING

Craig Roberts
February 17, 2005
NewsWithViews.com

It was as if I'd seen it before. It was like history repeating itself, but his time I was there to witness what I'd only read about. It was the crime of the century, and I was one of the investigators. But as I worked the case I could see that too many things were falling into place that eerily reminded me of what, prior to April 19th, 1995, was considered "the Crime of the Century", the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

I had a distinct advantage over the other investigators. I had spent four years immersed in an investigation into the Kennedy assassination, resulting in my book "Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza." In researching the facts surrounding the Kennedy murder, and the Warren Commission's assertion that a lone nut with a gun named Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible, I had delved into Oswald and the mysteries surrounding him prior to November 22, 1963. Now, as one of the assigned investigators of the Oklahoma City bombing, I began to witness a series of events transpire that so closely matched the events in Dallas that it was chilling. I could almost tell what would happen next on a day-by-day basis. Beside the entire "investigation" turning into a massive and blatant coverup before my eyes, I noticed that the two "lone nuts," McVeigh and Oswald, seemed to have a lot in common. So much so, that one could draw the conclusion that OKBOMB was an off-the-shelf operation that was taken from a blue print first drawn up in Dallas 32 years before--or maybe even earlier at a building in Germany called the Reichstag.

Let's examine the "coincidences."

Around 9:00 a.m. Oklahoma time on 19 April, 1995, a huge explosion rocked the downtown area of Oklahoma City. Within minutes, during the evacuation of what remained of the building, searching for casualties, arrival of police, fire and rescue personnel, and mass confusion, two more "devices" were found inside the building. Bomb squad personnel had to deactivate at least one of the devices and remove them from the area for safety. Within the hour the media stated that they were "ATF training devices, not actual bombs." If this were so, why were they placed in strategic locations inside the building, on floors away from the ATF offices?

In Dealey Plaza, a scenario quickly developed wherein a lone shooter, from the 6th floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository, allegedly fired three shots which amazingly created over a half dozen wounds (including one missed shot) and escaped the scene undetected. Later investigation showed that only two empty 6.5mm shell casings were found on the 6th Floor and turned in, along with a rifle and one live round. Yet these documents were altered during the Warren Commission hearings to reflect three empty cartridges to fit the "Magic Bullet" theory.

Oklahoma City: Two seismic events transpired according to the University of Oklahoma Seismic Center. The tape, which actually shows three equal events, is quickly debunked by the government as being "the initial explosion, followed by the building collapsing" (ignoring the first event entirely). Yet, when the entire remaining building was demolished by controlled demolition, the event recorded on tape was barely noticeable. Still, the investigators insist that only one bomb was used: the Ryder truck bomb allegedly delivered by McVeigh.

Within twenty-four hours the Ryder truck grows from a small van to the largest box-truck in Ryder inventory to contain the ever growing amount of ammonium-nitrate explosives required to create the damage done to the building. Yet, according to sources outside the government, very little indication of nitrate deposits at the scene are found—indicating a different type of explosive.

In Dallas, following the ambush of JFK, damage control seemed to begin immediately with the focus of attention being directed away from the Grassy Knoll to the Book Depository building—and a shooter on the sixth floor. In OKC, the first two leads indicate that two "middle-eastern males" were seen hanging around the scene and were probably involved; and an all points bulletin was broadcast by OKC Police Department to search for a brown pickup truck with a smoked-plastic bug shield. Within a few hours, the FBI cancelled both leads—and told the police that they had not issued an "attempt to locate" on the pickup truck. But the OKC PD had the original release from the FBI asking for the APB, and it had been duly noted in their radio logs.

McVeigh is picked up for speeding, in a car with no license tag, for doing 85 mph, by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. Oswald was picked up, for allegedly shooting Dallas officer J.D. Tippit, after entering the Texas Theater without buying a ticket. In each case, the FBI was notified within a short period of time that a "suspect" was in custody. In Oswald's case, items "linking" him to the Kennedy assassination were "found" in various locations: photos of him with a Carcano, a Mannlicher-Carcano found on the 6th floor, etc. For McVeigh, copies of "subversive material," such as a small-press radical book titled "The Turner Diaries" is found in his car. For Oswald, the Carcano was traced to him by the FBI, who, before the advent of computers and data bases, managed to track the weapon from its entrance into the U.S., to an importer, to Klein's Sporting Goods, to a sale to "A.J. Hidell," to Lee Harvey Oswald. All in two days. Over a weekend!

For McVeigh, the rear axle (differential?) of the Ryder truck was discovered, wherein an ID number was allegedly discovered, which was supposedly traced from the manufacturer, to Ryder, to a truck rental in Kansas—all within hours. Interviews with the rental agent produced two sketches: McVeigh and John Doe #2. The media did not report that a third person was present, who waited outside in a car, and who appeared to be dark complected. And John Doe #2, as a lead, evaporated when the FBI stated that there was a mistake, and that he was a soldier from Fort Riley who rented a truck the previous day, and was not involved with McVeigh. But media outside of Oklahoma did not report that another John Doe #2 was discovered by KFOR TV in Oklahoma City, and that he matched the suspect sketch; was seen by six eye witnesses in a bar with McVeigh and Nichols only days before the bombing; drove a brown Chevrolet pickup with smoked plastic bug screen; and was an Iraqi officer who had fought against us in the Gulf War! It also was not reported that over 5,000 Iraqi POWs had been brought into this country for "humanitarian reasons," and a large segment ended up being settled in Oklahoma City.

In Oswald's case, it is interesting to note that he had connections to the White Russian community of Dallas-Fort Worth, and that these people had been settled here by the OSS when Allen Dulles brought the SS Galizien Division out of Europe at the end of World War II, to Greece, then Canada, then New York City and Dallas/Fort Worth. The teenage children of the Galiziens were later utilized as CIA assets for infiltration into Russia—they spoke Russian and had relatives inside who might provide support after infiltration. (This makes one wonder about the Oswald who, during his time in the Marine Corps in Japan, "taught himself" Russian within a few weeks).

The investigation of the Kennedy assassination rapidly focused on the "lone nut" scenario. Witnesses who did not support this rapidly-building case against Oswald as the lone participant were intimidated, debunked or misquoted in reports. Most who saw something other than a man in the 6th floor window were not subpoenaed to testify before the Warren Commission. In McVeigh's case, anyone who brings forward information that there had to be more than one bomb, or that there were higher powers involved in the bombing, or more than just McVeigh and Nichols involved, is quickly debunked, discredited or ignored. For the OKC bombing, anyone who heard or felt more than one explosion or saw more than one person get out of the Ryder truck was discredited or not permitted to testify before the Grand Jury. In fact, no one was permitted to testify. All questions that were asked by the Jurists in one room, were asked through the Prosecutor, who then went out into another room to ask the witnesses, then he would return with the answer! (At least an answer that to me would have provoked suspicion in the fact that I did not hear the witness directly). Such actions infuriated Jurist Hoppy Heidelberg who eventually was dismissed from the Grand Jury because he objected to the way it was being run.

Within twenty-four hours of the bombing the mainstream media, en total, slanted the dagger of suspicion to "far right radicals," such as the burgeoning militia movement. In particular, the Michigan Militia was targeted as being "tied" to McVeigh. In actual fact, though two members of the Michigan Militia stated that they think they saw McVeigh at one of their open-to-the-public meetings, McVeigh himself says he never attended. Still, even if he was seen at a meeting, it could easily have been part of a setup to develop manufactured connections to a group already under scrutiny by certain bureaucrats.

For Oswald, a radical background (this time Left Wing) was built in the press long before Dallas. He was filmed handing out "Fair Play for Cuba" pamphlets on a New Orleans street corner, and was interviewed on television wherein he declared himself a "Marxist" for public consumption. The media has maintained ever since that Oswald was a Marxist by his own admission, and killed Kennedy for radical political reasons. For McVeigh's "legend"--the term used in the intelligence community when one play-acts a bogus background for public consumption--it was handing out The Turner Diaries to fellow employees at CalSpan Incorporated in Buffalo, New York.

The media's attack on the militia—who had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose in the aftermath of the bombing—resulted in new "anti-terrorism" laws being ram-rodded through Congress in the wake of media-generated public emotion. These laws had been laying stagnant for months, having been written following the New York City Twin Towers bombing fo 1993, but delayed due to their conflict with Constitutional rights.

Interestingly, one major result of the Kennedy assassination was the "Firearms Control Act of 1968," which was the first major legislation regarding governmental control of citizens firearms since the 1930s where private ownership of automatic weapons had to be licensed by the federal government—another restriction on Constitutional rights.

Then there are the "Wild Goose Chases" of the national investigation. During the Kennedy investigation, hundreds of FBI agents were sent hither and yon to interview, question, and report on even the most obscure leads and "witnesses." The agents, all trying to do as sterling a job as possible, then sent their reports to FBI headquarters for screening and absorption. Few agents ever saw the "big picture," could compare notes, or even knew just why they were following up on a given "lead." The same happened with the OKC bombing investigation. Hundreds of agents have "followed up" on even the most obscure leads, but, like their predecessors who investigated the Kennedy assassination, they are left out of the grand scheme of things and are only privy to certain pieces of the puzzle. It is also interesting to note that the main question is not being answered concerning the motivation behind any crime: Who Benefits?

FBI agents who attempted to follow the money, and the powers, behind the murder of JFK were quickly redirected by Washington to other activities. The agents who smelled a large rodent with the Oklahoma City bombing (as in Who Benefits) found themselves subject to the same circumstances. It appears to once again be a system of directed investigation, ignoring or debunking of anything that does not fit the mold of a predetermined outcome ("A Patsy Gets The Blame"), and disassociation with the idea that higher powers are involved. After all, what agent wants to be re-assigned to Coldville, North Dakota?

The television coverage of the transfer of McVeigh from jail to the holding facility at Tinker Air Force Base, outside of Oklahoma City, was quite reminiscent of Oswald's transfer attempt from the Dallas PD jail to the county jail. The only difference was that there was no Jack Ruby to intervene. However, it should be noted that McVeigh was dressed in bright orange, and wore no bullet proof vest! It makes one wonder if an opportunity was not being presented by design.

Until the investigation begins to follow leads concerning "Who Benefits?" it is unlikely the Oklahoma City bombing case will ever progress to a full, believable, conclusion. If the case against McVeigh and Nichols, who the government maintains acted by themselves, was so iron clad, then we must ask ourselves why the government prosecutors had to ask for a ninety day extension on their investigation before attempting to present McVeigh for indictment before a federal Grand Jury. The FBI and Department of Justice still maintain the case is "ongoing" and that there are "others unknown," but in actual fact no one is working the case, and any new evidence that is presented is either refused or shunned. This also holds true in the JFK case, as the small group of dedicated JFK assassination researchers has discovered over and over when new material comes to light. No U.S. Attorney will touch it, or wants to even know of it. It muddy's the water, and is bothersome. After all, Oswald acted alone, didn't he?

In Oklahoma City, there's one more element to consider: the video tape. In 1963, Abraham Zapruder's film recorded the events that transpired in Dealey Plaza. It was seized by the FBI, obtained by Life magazine (who employed former OSS and CIA personnel such as senior editor Charles D. Jackson), and not released until much later. When it was released it had been altered. In Oklahoma City, the media reported that the camera on an automatic teller machine (or the Southwestern Bell building security camera, or a camera on the Regency Park apartment building a block west) recorded McVeigh parking the Ryder truck, then walking away from it to get into a vehicle to speed away. The federal authorities seized the tape for evidence.

Why have we not seen these tapes? If they were being kept secret until trial, then they should have been released after being exhibited in a court room. No tapes were produced, even though they were asked for by the defense. Now the trials are over. The question is: will we ever see them? If not, why not? Showing the videos will put the issue to rest concerning who, and how many, exited the Ryder truck.

Many other questions remain to be answered, as in the Kennedy investigation, but will probably never be breached. Questions such as: Was there an Iraqi connection? Were there actually two (or more) explosions? Were there two or more other bombs inside the building? Why did McVeigh's license tag "fall off" his car? Why was the APB on the brown pickup not followed up on, then later cancelled altogether and denied to exist by the FBI? Exactly what number was found on the truck axle that would identify the vehicle? Why have we not seen photographs of this number plate? Why was not John Doe #2, the Iraqi Republican Guard Division officer, not followed up in detail by the FBI? And why, after it was shown there was no connection, did the media continue to shift public attention to right wing groups ranging from the NRA to various militia organizations when those entities had the most to lose from such a tragic event?

Shortly after Oswald's arrest in Dallas he exclaimed: "So I'm the patsy!" One can only wonder if McVeigh and Nichols felt the same.



One last note to consider: The June 25, 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers apartment building in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, which killed 23 Americans was briefly referred to by the media as "proof" that a truck bomb could do the damage to a building that the ammonium-nitrate packed Ryder truck supposedly did. But the claims quickly died when it was determined that 1) the building was built with poor grade materials and was not reinforced to American standards; 2) that only the front wall fell and little damage occurred past that point; 3) the Murrah building was built to strict modern codes using the strongest materials; and 4) the explosives used were in excess of 5,000 pounds of RDX and Semtex high explosive. A bomb twenty-five times as powerful as the "Ryder bomb" did only one-tenth the damage.[1]

Footnote:

1. In comparison, the crater in front of the Murrah Building was 20 feet deep and 30 feet wide, while the crater in front of the Khobar Towers was 35 feet deep and 85 feet wide.



© 2005 Craig Roberts - All Rights Reserved

[trollgirl]

...go to www.ctwilcox.com, and on the home page, click on "doc flick". You will see a grainy, blown up, color version of the Zap film, and it runs over and over, just the critical seconds before the fatal bullet, and just after. If you watch it over and over, you will see the driver reach around, you will see the slide of his autopistol, his hand on the pistol, and then the bullet strike. I was amazed! Most versions of the film crop the driver out entirely. Now I know why.

Laz

[Feanor]

...go to www.ctwilcox.com (http://www.ctwilcox.com), and on the home page, click on "doc flick". You will see a grainy, blown up, color version of the Zap film, and it runs over and over, just the critical seconds before the fatal bullet, and just after. If you watch it over and over, you will see the driver reach around, you will see the slide of his autopistol, his hand on the pistol, and then the bullet strike. I was amazed! Most versions of the film crop the driver out entirely. Now I know why.

Laz

"Veracity"'s suggestion is an illusion, and frankly I can't make out any pistol even after repeated viewings.

On the other hand, what is very clear is that the fatal shoot came from behind; there is a forward ejection of blood, etc., as the bullet presumably exits; then Kennedy's head recoils backwards. This is nothing new: I have always recognized this sequence of events, and this new view makes it clearer than ever. I explained it earlier in this thread.

[trollgirl]

"Veracity"'s suggestion is an illusion, and frankly I can't make out any pistol even after repeated viewings.

On the other hand, what is very clear is that the fatal shoot came from behind; there is a forward ejection of blood, etc., as the bullet presumably exits; then Kennedy's head recoils backwards. This is nothing new: I have always recognized this sequence of events, and this new view makes it clearer than ever. I explained it earlier in this thread.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, it is very clear that the bullet in question comes from the front, and that the ejection of blood, etc, was entry-wound spray. The damage to the back of the head was very extensive. We who know the difference between an entry and an exit wound understand this. Furthermore, you just can not judge which side a bullet hit from the movement of the target if the target weighs a lot more than the bullet, which is designed to damage, not move, the target (except for the specialized bulltets used in bowling-pin shooting). The jerking of the head was done by spasms of JFK's own neck muscles.

Laz

[Feanor]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, it is very clear that the bullet in question comes from the front, and that the ejection of blood, etc, was entry-wound spray. The damage to the back of the head was very extensive. We who know the difference between an entry and an exit wound understand this. Furthermore, you just can not judge which side a bullet hit from the movement of the target if the target weighs a lot more than the bullet, which is designed to damage, not move, the target (except for the specialized bulltets used in bowling-pin shooting). The jerking of the head was done by spasms of JFK's own neck muscles.

Laz

I do know a little about the difference between entry and exit wounds as I was a shooting enthusiast for a number of years. At lease we agree that the backwards movement of the head was not the direct result of the bullet impact. I continue to believe that the full metal jacketed Carcano buttet passed through the head, i.e. in one side, out the other. It is typical that there is ejecta from such an exit wound; physics dictates that there be a reaction to the ejecta which was the recoil of the head.

[JoeE SP9]

I wonder if Joe Bialek even owns a stereo system. He has never made any comment whatsoever about sound or music. Why is he allowed to post this nonsense?:cool:

[zapr]

........He took a bullit from behind and from the front at the same time. The shot from behind came first knocking his head forward and a split second later, the shot from the front knocking his head back. Who was it that said there was two shots at the same time?........Zapr.

[Feanor]

........He took a bullit from behind and from the front at the same time. The shot from behind came first knocking his head forward and a split second later, the shot from the front knocking his head back. Who was it that said there was two shots at the same time?........Zapr.

This scenario -- and "grassy knoll", etc. -- really stretch the imagination. The conspiracy theories are all conjecture for which there is no compelling documentation nor physical evidence.

Americans, get passed it: the high and mightly U.S. President was wasted by some crackpot loser nobody acting alone.

[GMichael]

This scenario -- and "grassy knoll", etc. -- really stretch the imagination. The conspiracy theories are all conjecture for which there is no compelling documentation nor physical evidence.

Americans, get passed it: the high and mightly U.S. President was wasted by some crackpot loser nobody acting alone.

But we love to dissect things. Tear them down into their component molecules and examine every tiny detail under a microscope until the search for hidden truths means more than the original act did. It's what we do. Asking us to stop is like asking the scorpion not to bite the turtle.

[zapr]

This scenario -- and "grassy knoll", etc. -- really stretch the imagination. The conspiracy theories are all conjecture for which there is no compelling documentation nor physical evidence.

Americans, get passed it: the high and mightly U.S. President was wasted by some crackpot loser nobody acting alone.
........Do you know who Col. Fletcher Prouty is?

[Feanor]

........Do you know who Col. Fletcher Prouty is?

Don't know much more than that, I'll admit. I believe he died a few years ago: was he assassinated? :confused5:

[audio_dude]

wow, this is the most pointless discution i've ever read, VERY entertaining! and Feanor! i love the way you just said it plain and simple, just a crackpot, nothing more...

[zapr]

wow, this is the most pointless discution i've ever read, VERY entertaining! and Feanor! i love the way you just said it plain and simple, just a crackpot, nothing more...
......Pointless? That's the problem.....Zapr

[trollgirl]

...separate your heads from your shoulders:

It's a History Channel segment which was supressed, titled "The Guilty Men."

As I type this, at the top of the headlines on rense.com, is "E. Howard Hunt Newest To Link LBJ to JFK Murder." If you read this sometime later, you can type that title into the site search engine to find it.

The rense.com headline is a link to the material on prisonplanet.com, where there is a short article, and video links to youtube.com.

If you want to see it directly on youtube.com, just go there, type in "TMWKK," click on "see all videos," and go from Episode 1 Segment 1 to the end.

There, you have three ways to access it. He's guilty as hell!

Laz

[nobody]

I'm pretty sure JFK was killed by Aliens, working in conjunction with Bin Laden and his time traveling machine.

[trollgirl]

I'm pretty sure JFK was killed by Aliens, working in conjunction with Bin Laden and his time traveling machine.

Right...........and I'm an FBI plant.

Laz